does any make them new anymore?

thanks

There were two types of Cape Guns (South Africa)

A side by side, one barrel shotgun, the other barrel rifled for a big black powder cartridge. An all in one gun for the early settlers.

A Mauser bolt action, 29 to 30 inch barrel, in one of the Metric calibers such as 9.3x62, 8mm of various flavors, maybe a 7mm. Multi leaf sights on the barrel, some even had a tip up elevator sight on the barrel similar, but smaller, to the 1917 and 1914 Enfields. The long sight radius improved accuracy in the South African open country.

Nope, not made anymore except for custom. The side by side would be extremely expensive. The Mauser bolt action may be easily duplicated by any Mauser gunsmith. Harald Wolf has a fine example of one he made (in 8x68) in an earlier issues of Hatari Times. Plus photos of an original. This type of rifle is on my "To Build" list after I finish stocking three barreled action in the backlog.

THIS is a Cape Gun. J.P.Sauer & Sohn,1912. 12gauge left x 9,3x72R. I killed a wild boar with it in Tennessee in the Caryonah Pig Hunt in Dec

Evil Twin, very nice example of the Cape double. I forgot to mention they were also made for smokeless.

Twin,

I have almost your gun's twin, but in 12/8X57JR and second set of 12/12 barrels.

Yours is is very nice shape, and I covet it.

This Sauer set has a K-3 P&CH in claw mounts...

Nice one's guys. Always wanted a cape gun, but wound up with and up and down in 8x57/16. Really like the second set of barrels. Curious about your optics.
There are a number of U/U makers out there, but I guess it's cost and small market that limit the lieklihood of seeing a new Capegun.
Bfly

IF more hunters actually realized just how effective and practical a Cape Gun really is, there might just be another surge of demand. I realize that a lot of guys don't feel comfy with less that 3 or 4 shots in the ready rack, but in the process of killing my wild boar, that rifle reloaded very quickly, silently and easily. In point of fact, hunting with it in the Adirondacks, I carry a shotshell loaded. I've nailed down half a trainload of ruffed grouse with the gun while I was deer hunting. I am sure L2S will back me up on this part:these guns as pictured handle like a dream!! They come to point like lightning and they are mostly self aiming when you do that. EASY to hit critters.

The idea has a certain appeal for me as well, but then I wonder, how many shots at grouse do I want to take while hunting for deer?

I actually don't believe it matters. I have watched deer when a gunshot close by sounded off and all they did was pick up their heads and look...then went back to doing whatever they were doing. You could load a rifled sug and have a bear back-up. Hell, if you just took a shot at a grouse and a deer DId break cover, the rifle barrel is ready to rock and roll instantly.

Where I hunt in Virginia, you can only use a rifle when you are ten feet off the ground. Otherwise, it's slugs or buckshot. Shots are often measured in feet, down there. I use the rifle and buckshot when in a stand, and either buck or slug on the ground. Not much more frustrating than walking back to camp with an empty rifle and seeing a nice buck or sitting in a tree stand and seeing a nice buck that is too far to shoot with a shotgun.
Bfly

I sometimes feel the commotion gets bedded deer moving and improves things.

As a young boy, I got my first drilling by mowing lawns for two summers and saving up. It was Charles Daly sidelock 12/12/30-30 similar to the one Steelhead stole from me a while back.

One day in late October I came down off the Limbo Range in NW Nevada with 6 chuckar, 15 valley quail...and a great big 5X5 mule deer...I dragged the deer, then went up after the gun and game bag...dragged the deer, then back up for the gun and game bag...crying and grinning the whole time. My dad beamed when I made it down to the truck at long last. I'll never forget that day with my late father and his proud look.

These are wonderful guns that feel Just Right in one's hands. They almost point themselves.

Do you have another one that can be stolen?

Wish I did...

Pete Stewart stole one from me a while back. He got a great little slender Emil Kerner cape gun in 16/9,3X72R with 2.75X Hensoldt in claw mounts from me for $1,600.00 in a moment of my temporary insanity...and the S. O. B. won't sell it back...says his wife loves it.



If you are seriously looking for one, PM me. I'll network a bit for you.

Is my Savage 24 in 30WCF/20G a Cape Gun? - I also have an English SS 12G that someone has put a barrel liner into chambered for 40-65 Winchester. It is heavy as heck, and I wish I knew its history.

Your Savage is more correctly called a combination gun. I believe the general rule of thumb is, O/U shotgun/rifles are "Combination Guns", and when configured as a SxS they are "Cape Guns". At least that is my understanding.

Thanks to ET and L2S for posting pics. Never tire of seeing those guns!

Jeff

ET loves to tease and taunt me with photos of his. He KNOWS I want it.

It was handed down in the family, and I have to respect that...

GODANGIT...I still want it. !!!

BTW, I had two of the 24 Savages in 20/30-30, and both were great meat getters. One was the model with nice walnut and straight grip. I gave it to a buddy who lived in AK. He popped two moose with it and supplied me with 1/2 a freezer of great eating. The Savage 24 is a great American tradition, IMO.

I have owned a number typically 12g, 450/577 Martini or a similar class of black powder British cartridge. Shot them all with modern powders at duplicate velocity. One was a 12gx303british Holloway & Naughton . It had a small diameter firing pin for the rifle and was nitro proof.
Good to shoot but heavy and did not handle like a double rifle. My opinion is they are a compromise as they do not handle well except for the big guys.
For the contemporary hunter a combination U/O is a far better handling option. Starting at the Savage ( do they still have a 30/30 option?) through the the Russian range, Tika , Italian and into the top end European.
My preference is a rimmed cartridge. Two favourites are the 7X65R and 9.3 x74R for big game. I recall Tika once offered a 222rem x12g. It is good to have the back up of 00.

Years ago all the boys where I grew up would hunt along creeks on a mixed-bag quest. We weren't too particular what we hunted as long as it was edible. Wasn't uncommon to end a mornings hunt with 3 or 4 squirrels, a rabbit or two, maybe a couple of ducks and if things went right....a hog or deer.

Most of us didn't have the guns you guys have so we went with the East Texas Poor-Boy's Cape gun.....a double shotgun loaded with a buckshot in one barrel and squirrel shot in the other. One guy however was the envy of the crowd because he had a Savage 24 in .30-30 over 12 gauge. We aways did well with the buckshot/squirrel shot combo, but it just didn't have the "class" of a rifle/shotgun set-up.

MK1, British Cape Guns MAY be heavy and unweildy, but the German guns are a pure joy to use. As for combination guns, I still hunt (yesterday as a matter of fact) with a Savage 24,.22/.410 my Dad gave me when I wuz 11. My very FIRST gun of my own.

I like my Cape guns with an extra shotgun barrel. Though I would certainly take a Cape gun.

Like the one you stole from a poor hapless old man??

EvilTwin,
I have not owned a German Cape Gun but have a JP Sauer drilling 16x16 2 3/4" 7x65R, 24 inch barrels with a detachable 2-7 Kahles. Mostly use it with open sights.
It is a delight to handle. My personal view with drillings is that 12g just takes away some of the responsive handling. I had a 12x12 8x60 not in the same class as the Sauer for responsive handling. One will have to check out a German Cape Gun. hopefully with 28" or less barrels.

MK1

The ones ET and I shoot have 27 1/2" barrels. They tend to be longer than the drillings, and these earlier guns had longer barrels in general.

I agree 100% about the 16ga drillings being more graceful and better handling.

Another coupla views



I have been advised by a collector of guns such as this that the flip rear sight(75 meter and 150 meter leafs) is only found on rifles made to order. Special goodies apparently

thanks for sharing the pics I'm still looking for the right one to bring home....

ET that Cape Gun is SWEET!

I had killed half a trainload of ruffed grouse and bunnies w/ the shotgun barrel, but never managed to connect on any big game with the rifle. When my Dad gave it to me the month before he died, he told me to have fun and hunt it. Welll, I took it to Caryonah last Dec for the Campfire Pig Hunt and killed my boar with it. Put him down with one shot. Dad oughtsta be pleased wid dat!!!

When you get tired of it...

Congrats on the boar!

Thanx!!!

Ran across a cape gun at this weekend's show. They asked $1600. I ended up giving them a 12 gauge that I have $425 invested in plus $800 cash for the cape gun and 2 boxes of 38-55.

The rifle barrel is 38-55 and other side is 12 gauge. Bores are both nice and action locks up tight. Its plain jane (no engraving or inlay). Made in Belgium 1881.

BUT - the rear site and spring on the lever to break it open are missing and the stock has been carved on both sides by an amauture. I can sand the stock smooth again and they gave me a rear sight than can be made to fit. My smith can make a spring.

What do you think? Did I pay too much? Pics to follow.

You paid about what the market will bear for the gun. I don't think you got hurt. In two more common chamberings, they are worth a bit more, as a rule. The 12ga and 38-55 are easy to find rounds, and that helps.

Watch the pressures?? Also, is the shotgun tube laminated or fluid steel?

That's exactly what I thought on the value. Common chamberings that I alredy own but offset by the fact that it needs a little work, so right at market value.

I wouldn't know the difference in tube laminated or fluid steel (what should I look for?) but I will keep the pressures low. I'm pretty sure the 12 side is 2 1/2 inch so I'll be loading for it anyway. I'll load for the 38-55 side as well. Low pressure loads all around. I'm thinking of this as a 25 yard partridge gun and a 100 yard rifle. No need for high pressure in either side.

Had to take her out and shoot last night. Even without the rear site I put 2 shots from each barrel on target at 25 yards. I'm pretty pleased. A few more pics:

I wish I owned it. It is VERY Classic!! It sure looks clean, also.

EvilTwin,l also own a Savage 24 in 20g/30-30. A good durable working gun on the ranch.Really handy and suited for safe scabbard carry on a quad or off road bile. Typically loaded are No4Buck or down to BB. Ok for close hogs or dogs. 1 oz loads are effective.Quick to get into action.Traditionally I carried a lever carbine but the Savage now gives an instant choice.By the time one stops and prepares to fire, two aimed shots are all you can get away.

It was my first day out with the Cape gun with the new rear site installed. 12 gauge side worked just dandy with low pressure 2 � inch shells. The rifle side held a surprise for me.

I had bought the piece with the understanding that the rifle barrel was 38-55. It even came with two boxes of 38-55. 38-55 cartridges chamber. Pieper made a 12 and 38-55 combo that looks just like my gun. In short, I had every reason to believe it was 38-55 except for a stamp saying so.

My first shot was with a very low pressure load. Just 6 � grains of Red Dot powder behind a 250 grain .375 projectile. The first shot did not clear the barrel.

I tapped it out with a rod and noticed that the rifling had left deep imprints from the lands. The grooves did not leave any marks on the projectile. So it was touching the lands but not filling the full bore. This is a good thing since when I put a caliper on the projectile at home (by default I had �slugged� the bore) I found that it had been reduced from .375 to .365 (actually 364.5)!

I do NOT have a 38-55. I have a rimmed, straight walled 9.xx Chambering of .365 diameter. In addition to the .365 bore I found that a loaded 38-55 cartridge is still � inch short of the rifling. Hmmm�.. What the heck is it? I don�t know yet.

The underside of the rifle barrel has numerous proof marks including �Express� but nothing to indicate the chambering. Except possibly an 8.8 stamped some distance away from all other marks.

What does 8.8 mm convert to in caliber? 364 or 365?

Could it be the old 360 Nitro Express? Does anyone have information on that cartridge (especially projectile diameter?)

Any other guesses? Advice?

Sounds like a 9.3x72, but you really need to do a chamber cast and measure things. Cerrosafe is available from Midway and Brownells. Us shadetree mechanics measure the rim and chamber head with a caliper, study the books, and try a primed case, then a primed case with a couple grains of a fast powder and some cornmeal, topped with some candle wax, tie it to a tire and measure the case. I'm only missing one finger, so take that idea for what it's worth. Measure the chamber cast. The 8.8 you see on the proof marks refers to land diameter, not groove diameter. 8.8 is the usual marking for a 9.3 bore. Proof marks on early guns are not as complete as the post 1912 guns, when German proof laws changed. If it is a 9.3x72, it is very similar in power to the 38-55. It will take a 200 grain bullet, which Hawk carries, and puts it out about 2000 fps. S&B loads new ammo for the caliber. A great hunting cartridge and pleasant to shoot.
Hope that helps,
Bfly

Thanks I'm linking up with another poster here who has a 9.3x72R tonight and comparing specs....more to follow.

diameter looked good but the 9.3x72R was about a half inch too long....I'm thinking 9.3x57R might be just the ticket....

I took a dozen or so photos of the proofs but need a better camera or better light to make them clear. So far I have identified 4 Belgian proofs. I see now where the prior owner got 38-55 from there are two stamps on the water table � one is a 38 and slightly to the right is 55. He assures me that he fired 38-55 through the gun. I see no evidence of damage and the action locks up tight, so this old girl was well built.

Here are the best pics I have so far. Found a fellow selling 9.3 projectiles and bought them. Now we just need to confirm the chamber length.

There were several 9.3x72's. There was a thread somewhere else on this site on them. The only place I've seen them written up was in an old book called European Calibers, or something like that. I borrowed it from somebody many years ago. Have not seen a copy since.
I think if it were my face and hands next to the action, I'd take the time to do a chamber cast, before I put any money in dies and brass. You can make yourself a little crazy trying all the standards, just to find out that what you have is not standard. Even improbable events happen sometimes.
Bfly

Cerrosafe? Got it from Brownells and found out a Martini that I bought with out markings was a .222mag..

thnx

ET,

Do you ANYthing without a sewer pipe sized muzzle?(Nice gun!)

FYI, Buffalo Arms 9.3x57R cases (based off 30-40 Krag brass)are also too long, BUT 38-55 cases with a .365 bullet (jacketed or cast) works just dandy with 8 grains of Red Dot. Now for hunting load developement!

CORRECTION!

I am now positive that it is 360 Nitro Express. I just rec'd my copy of cartridges of the world and checked all the measurements.I could not uinderstand why the 360 Nitro cartridges from Buffalo Arms didn't chamber - I thought they were too long. Turns out that they were NOT too long. They just needed sizing. The virgin brass was .421 wide at the base. It would not fully chamber. Resized to .4205 the 2 1/4 inch cases work just fine!

Confirmation - proof marks confirm it as a 360 BPE aka 9.3x57R aka 360 Express:

"I can see only the usual Liege, Belgium blackpowder proofmarks! On the action flat there is the "Perron", the symbol of the City of Liege, and a "V under star", a Belgian inspectors personal stamp. Under the rifle barrel there is the "EL" blackpowder proofmark, The "ELG in oval under crown", the Liege proofhouse acceptance mark in use from 1893, and the "R under crown" which in Liege marks proof of a rifled barrel. "8.8"mm is the correct bore (not rifling or bullet!)diameter for both the 9.3x72R and it's forerunner, the 9.3x57R aka .360 BPExpress."

And cases and bullets from Buffalo arms produce VERY satisfactory results with mild smokeless powder loads