Happened upon a 470 NE double and I'd like to load 500 Woodleighs with one of the Reloader (17, 19, 22) powders (with no filler) to about 2150. I am interpreting these to be rather temp stable and my experience w/ 15 in other calibers has been good. Anyone have any information to share?
Bones

I reload the .470 NE but have only used 515 gr. WFNGC bullets with Reloader 19. It takes a lot less powder to get to 2,150 with cast bullets than it does with jacketed.

DON'T DO IT!

The .470 is overrated and no good, especially in a double rifle. It might even be dangerous. To save you from possible harm, I'll have my oldest offspring, starting AU this week, come over and take that anachronism off of your hands, and save you from possible harm. You are SO lucky I spotted this thread!



(PS. I like H4831SC)

H4831 is the way to go. nicely fills the case, even with slightly "reduced" loads.

I use Norma cases, F215GM primers, H4831sc (102-108gr), and 500gr Woodleighs.

Note:

pay attention to crossing barrels. IMO, it's likely to happen above 2100fps, often lower (mine crosses as 2060 fps with 2035 the ideal velocity).

Note 2:

All powders will vary some in terms of velocity with changing temperatures, H4831 less so the the RL powders. It's often not enough to think about in single barrel guns using "extreme" powders but it can make a big, big difference in doubles.

I have some math on H4831 in (my) 470NE if you're interested.

the short version is that +1*F = +1.4fps and +/- 24*F = +/- 1grain of H4831

as a result, I actually have two loads, depending on anticipated temperature: 104gr for 60*F and up, 106 gr for 40*F and below.

Note 3: you'll want to get a press with a longer ram like the Lee Classic Cast and a longer trimmer like the Forster.

Note 4: get Redding dies ($40), not RCBS ($200).

Gas checks were a second edition project I had in mind for a less expensive load similar to standard loads. I plan to also follow shortly with a 5744 recipe which I think is in Terry Weiland's DGRifle Book.

I believe to become comfortable it will take a lot of handling and shooting at lighter loads interspersed by standard load training. Would you care to share your recipe for RE-19?

I was also reading about patched bullets wondering if one could paper patch the gap from .458 bullets to .474. After some study, I decided I'd wait to see if someone else went first...

Hatari,
I know about over-rated! I was promised it was little different that a .243 The first time I shot this thing, it wasn't mine, it belonged to a friend with two. I shot at the 50 meter target and was so pleased to be standing that I honestly never thought about looking to see if I struck the target. The recoil is intimidating to say the least, but not as much as the day my friend doubled his new one.

I became accustomed to the .375 which was also a surprise at first (this is a big surprise and very hard to "squeeze the trigger".) For now I'll work on it, but if it becomes burdensome, you'll be the first one I consider giving it to.

Oldest at AU??? Give him my email, [email protected] and we'll see he is given at least one home-cooked meal, but I'm not bailing him out of jail.

Sawbones

Very interesting in that the load worked up for this one with 4831 is 105 grains with identical components. It will be interesting to compare to your data with a similar test in this one. Thanks so much for the input and assistance in understanding the nature of these beasts.
Sawbones

I shot the .470 quite a bit until about 5 years ago. I sold mine two years ago and I am a 450-400 fan these days..but for 40 years I loaded the .470 and 450-31/4..another great caliber.

I would just load about 105 grs. of IMR-4831 in the .470 myself, but RL-15 with a filler is a good load.

I hunted with 85 grs. of RL-15 and a Kynoch filler over a 500 gr. woodleigh or Northfork cup point for 2020 FPS and never could tell the difference in the 2150 loadings except it didn't jar my teeth loose and killed every bit as good as the faster loadings...The Kynoch fillers or about 5 grs. of Dacron are the secret to RL-15 and its a great powder used that way, its accurate and mild of recoil for a .470 and kills very well on buffalo..

I have shot 110 to 111 grs. of RL-22 and its a decent powder but not as good as IMR-4831..I didn't much care for it other than it metered better than 4831, accuracy wasn't up to snuff in my rifle.

I don't understand why you don't want a filler, without it you can easily ring a chamber and ruin a very expensive gun..IMR-4831 will fill a case, RL 15 will not.

IMR-4350 is a good powder and you don't need a filler with it but keep in mind that with doubles a filler is always a good practice if you have an air space between bullet and powder level. In fact its a must in my books.

For what its worth 108 grs. of IMR-4831 will give you 2245 FPS, but I would only use that load in a Searcy rifle with modern steel..That used to be Butchs regulation load, but recoil is horrendous to say the least!!

All in all, after I got through playing fun and games I just went back to IMR-4831 exclusively with the exception of my light load of 85 grs. or RL-15 and a Kynoch filler or 5 grs. of Dacron.

I might add that everthing one knows about reloading for bolt or other actions has nothing to do with double rifles, it's a brand new world plagued with old rumors and BS, but it is a somewhat different world of shootingm, and needs some study and some adjustment..

Ray,

I am a willing student. I have read that fillers will cause a ringed chamber or barrel in bottleneck cartridges (and not so likely in straight walls like the 470. I also read to always use with black powder to fill an air space, but never with smokeless. My ignorance of fillers (I don't even know what to look for to order) coupled with fear of the unknown is the reason to hope for a loading in one of the other Alliant powders. So tell me more about the filler if you would. I looked on Midway and just a net search for "cartridge filler".

Many thanks for your comments and insight. You are correct about the double being a learning curve.

I am pretty virulently anti-filler.

there really doesn't seem to be any method of determining "how much" to use (it's typically Dacron fiber, like you'd get at a fabric store).

terms like: "some", "a little", "not too much", "a tad", "a pinch", and "just enough" give me the willies when used in the context of reloading.

people do it though.

The Dacron poly pillow stuffing can be found in the sewing section at wally world.

I played around with full capacity powders for years with only moderate success. The velocity wasn't the problem, it's regulation. I finally tried R15 and filler and never looked back. If you search back issues of Rifle and HL you'll find Seifried's recommended quantity of filler for various NE cartridges.
With the Woodleigh 500 soft, I settled on 90 gr R15 with 6.5 gr dacron. Reduce 2-3 gr with a solid.

Pete

Sawbones,
The purpose of a filler is to NOT ring your barrel or chamber..The airspace is the problem in a N.E. case, it can cause inaccuracy and actually has been reported as the cause of double ignition and double rifle blowups..

The use of a filler is an acceptable procedure..I don't use them in bottle neck cases, but I use them in all double rifle cases.I like the Kynoch wads and you can get those from Jeffs Outfitters or Cape Outfitters. I usually pick up a few thousand at SCI Reno. every year or so. I have always used 5 grains of Dacron also..weigh it and stuff it in with a No. 2 pencil that has not been sharpened..

Never mix black powder with smokeless, for one thing its dangerous and another thing is that will ruin a good bore unless you clean it with boiling water and oil it after ever shooting session..I just would not use it period....

Butch Searcy, the double rifle maker uses fillers with RL-15, JJ Peridoux uses fillers with IMR-3031 or RL-15 to regulate most of his guns or customer rifles, as do 99% of the double rifle shooters around, but a few do not and they usually just use IMR-4831 or a powder that fills the case and that works just fine..

Use only enough filler to fill the space snuggly, and that is enough to fill the case to half way up the neck and then use a bullet to compact it. It will come out of the bore in a solid plug at the shot and land about 20 feet in front of the bore..Using too little is not a good thing, look for the plug.

fillers can raise pressure about 2000 PSI at the most..

It's my daughter, and she has taken to Auburn in a big way. Of course, with her mom and I alums, she's been programmed from birth to bleed orange and blue.

We'll be down that way for the Arkansas game. We may need to rendezvous. Do you ever run into Old Center Church?

I'm a little late to the party, but concur with everything Ray says above and will add to weigh your poly every time!

I use 2 grains with 3031 in my .450/.400. I use 2 grains in my .450 #2 also.

I'd suggest that you get a copy of "Shooting the British Double Rifle" 3rd edition by Graeme Wright to fully understand loads for this rifle.

I never worry about the filler causing any problems and I don't think the amount is critical as I have experimented with it quite a bit and the results seldom change other than if you don't use enough it doesn't serve its purpose..

Today I use 5 grs. of dacron in the .470, 450-400-3" and 3.25", 450-3.25"; but I have been using Kynoch plugs for the last 5 or so years as its easier than weighing Dacron..I like the Kynoch plugs and they come in caliber sizing, and they are cheap enough.

Fillers are not a big deal, so we shouldn't make an issue out of them as we do on these threads, just use them if you have too much space between the bullet and the powder charge in double rifles.

Fillers have no place in modern bottle neck cartridges IMO, just use a proper powder in the modern calibers. Lead loads may/can be the exception.

Another option for the filler is foam backer rod (can find at Home Depot/Lowes). Easy to cut to the needed length to fill the case. Much easier to find (and cheaper too) than the Kynoch plugs and a whole lot quicker than weighing the dacron. The 1/2" worked fine for my 470 and 500-416 loads.

Also, before trying it for myself, I doubted the claim that the RL-15 loads would have less felt recoil compared to the H4831 loads. That does seem to be the case though as the RL-15 seems to be more of a push compared to the sharper recoil from the H4831. Getting good accuracy with both powders but leaning toward staying with RL-15 since it is easier on the shoulder.

Good post RockHopper, I would ask however if the backer rod comes out in a plug or does it melt..fillers that melt can cause severe problems in double rifles.

Whatever one uses just be sure it not sensitive to heat and won't melt on discharge.

Thanks to all for the education(s). I have 20 Hornady DGX, another 20 Hornady brass, dies, shell-holder, gas-checked bullets (thanks to Paladin), 4831, 5744 (on order), GM215M primers and a little free time. I'll go this direction for a bit before I try the RE15 and filler...

Thanks again

Be sure and use a filler with that 5744 as that is a reduced load powder, but it will get you great accuracy and properly loaded will not change the POI although your getting about 1500 FPS. My std. XMP-5744 load has been 45 grs., with a 500 gr. lead bullet and a .470 Kynoch filler, Fed. 215 primer and most any brass other than Bertram which I never use. It zeros with my full charge loads btw and is super accurate and the recoil is no more than a maidens caress..:)

Ray,

Am I missing something with 5744?

I understand 5744 was developed specifically for large case capacity big bores as a high bulk fast burning powder for reduced loads, negating the need for fillers and it isn't position sensitive. IIRC, Western Powders used the .416 Rigby as the platform for development.

Use of a filler might give you a tad bit better consistency, but isn't necessary.

David

Depending on the load density used, filler could be useful even with 5744 to get reliable ignition.

Imagine this scenario: You have a load with a powder that has 50% case capacity. You have a down hill shot. You tip the muzzle downward, the powder in the case runs from neatly packed against the primer, to congregated behind the bullet, leaving a sizable space between primer and powder. You may not get reliable ignition upon pulling the trigger, especially in cold weather.

I just received an email reply from from Johan Loubser, ballistician for Ramshot Accurate Powders. Quote, "It's not necessary/essential to use a filler. However, you can use it if you want too. Some claim they've seen improvements while other do not. It boils down to the specific combination of components and weapon." Seems Hatari has a case scenario point. Also when shooting your 470 from a treestand...

Paladin,
I have used 5744 both with and without fillers, and in every case I got considerably better accuracy with the fillers with 5744 in the 470 and 450-400..I suspect because of the Fed 215 primer which is the best we have since nobody will sell us the hotter 216 primer that the factory boys use..

I wouldn't know about the .416 Rigby as I would not use a filler in a bottle neck cartridge of any kind, as there is no need and also I probably wouldn't choose 5744 for a reduced load in the Rigby, as I never felt the need to reduce the Rigby that much. I always just cut the load back to the starter book loads and that worked fine for me, but also I have never used lead bullets in the Rigby either, so I'm not qualified to pass judgement on loading the Rigby with cast bullets and 5744..

I suspect Hatari has a point in his post above also.

Looks like Johan hit the nail on the head and well he should have since he developed the powder and is where I got my information (actually from Keith Anderson). Some people like and think they need fillers and some don't.

I suppose if one were hunting with a .470 from a tree stand 30 feet above ground for whitetail with a feeder twenty feet out, or hunting the elusive arctic snow snake, a filler would indeed be mighty handy.

All kidding aside, and specifically speaking of 5744 in the .470, from my limited experience I haven't found the need or use for fillers, and I don't doubt for a second better accuracy might be attained by using them. I have never used Federal 215's have never had a problem lighting any kind of powder, but it could be that I haven't experienced the proper conditions for primer failure. Certain primers have exhibited better accuracy than others in smaller calibers/cases.

I don't know about the Rigby either. I only mentioned it due to the fact that it was one of the main cartridges used to develop 5744 and has considerable capacity for bore diameter.

I've got a little experience using fillers in bottle neck cases and I've found them to be real handy using heavy (115 - 130 grain .224 bullets) in a .223 Remington. No matter how I tilted the gun barrel up, down, tapped or shook the rifle before shooting, I couldn't get any consistency. When I finally found the right filler, everything changed. The filler made all the difference in the load I was working on, but not so much due to holding the powder against the flash hole, but because the filler sealed the case mouth with the chamber not allowing pressure to escape. This was for subsonic loads, so the peak pressure generated wasn't enough to form the case to the chamber and seal it. But this is the Big Bores Only section, so enough about small case capacities and smaller bores.

As a rule, I don't use fillers just because a case is of a particular design. I don't really like to use them, but sometimes they are the only way to achieve the desired results.

David