Was thinking about this the other day... could a .375, 416, or 458 etc. penetrate hard body armor? I believe the strongest available and practical is rated to a .30-06 180 grain at 2800 fps. For some reason it came to my mind, I think I was pondering what I would do in a disaster scenario and al queda terrorists or china troops invaded and all i had was my big bore rifle whether it would penetrate their body armor if they had any

Polska - even if the safari rifle round didn't penetrate the body armor most likely the sheer blunt force trauma from impact would take its toll. Just pure speculation on my part. Homesteader.

I'm thinkin it make a mess of the transpotation they are using as well....

Ive seen .416rby 400gr Barns solids go through 1/2" steel plate and it looks like its been done with a drill press.

I wouldn't worry about disater scenario's. The chances are if it did happen you wouldn't have you rifle any way.
Stay of the processed food, eat more fresh fruit and have a good nights sleep. You will be fine.

Rifle - often wondered how a solid from a .416 thru .470 would mess up an engine block. The lighter sheet-metal (fenders, doors) offer no protection at all. How many abandoned cars have you seen shot up in dumps, gravel pits etc.? Homesteader.

Yes, a 416Rgiby with solids will blow through body armour, but so will a 22 MAgnum, especially with commonly available FMJ ammo. Let us hope - and pray - that we never have to test such in a major crisis situation. For an armed intruder wearing body armour, my shotgun is loaded with tungsten #4 buck. HAve not tested it yet, but beleive the small diameter of the #4 with the roundness and hardness and great weight/momentum of the tungsen alloy shot would be able to penetrate the armour and make a real mees of the perp. Don't want to test THAT theory either, unless someone has an old Kevlar vest they want to donate for testing whilst it is on a mannequin. Hmmmmm, I smell a test project coming on here.....

There have been a number of documented incidents where police have shot perps wearing body armor in the chest with slugs and the perp died from blunt force trauma which crushed his heart. The slug didn't penetrate the vest but the impact killed his heart. Dead is dead.

Lee Enfield built a .50 bolt action smooth bore for helmet testing during the war. It fired a steel ball.........not sure who got to wear the helmet when they tested it......One Hell of a headache for any one who would like a project like this!

Crossbow bolts will penetrate soft armor, but I'd be intersted in the results of tests on steel and hard armor.

None of the body armor that I know will resist a knife or nail gun without a ceramic plate in the vital area. Arrows and cross bow bolts are just projected flying knives.

It appears that "Bullet Proof Armor" is just a name to give the wearer a warm fuzzy feeling.

Safariman - you don't mix your tungsten #4 buck with either a "kyptonite" or depleted uranium buffer - do you? Just askin. Homesteader.

A few years back, my ex brother and law and I fired my .458 Win Mag. loaded with a Barnes hollowpoint, either 400 or 450 gr, can't remember, at a piece of 5/8" boiler plate. Now I know that is not armor, but it not only penetrated cleanly but actually engraved the rifleing pattern from the gun into the hole it punched.

I would not want to be behind any body armor that thing hit.

Yes

after considerable thought

No

"Hard" body armor contains one or more hard plates carried in a Kevlar garment. The hard plate is normally made of high tech ceramic material, although some older plates could be made of AR500 armor steel. Steel plates in hard body armor are obsolete these days because of their excessive weight. The hard plates normally cover the front and rear of the torso only. There are some exotic armors such as Dragon Skin that have dozens of small overlapping hard plates that give wider coverage.

If a bullet misses the hard plate and hits only the Kevlar garment, it is encountering only soft body armor and will behave accordingly.

The primary mechanism by which bullets penetrate hard or soft armor is velocity, with bullet construction coming in second. A small, soft bullet travelling at 4,000 fps is more likely to penetrate hard body armor than a large solid bullet at 2,000 fps. Ceramic plates are lighter than steel, but can be brittle and may not withstand multiple hits.

Soft body armor normally stops projectiles that travel no faster than about 1,500 fps. Some AP bullets will do the trick at lower velocities, and some large bore projectiles such as shotgun slugs will be stopped by soft armor at somewhat higher velocities.

I have personally fired .22 RF Magnum rifle bullets (at about 1,800 fps) that went through soft body armor that contained 18 layers of Kevlar, and then fired 12 gauge Foster type slugs at the same armor and had the slugs stopped by the vest.

Soft body armor can be easily penetrated by sharp objects such as knives, but is useful against slashing attacks. There is special soft body armor that contains a mesh that does protect against edged weapons.

I have fired several arrows from compound bows at soft body armor and have never gotten a penetration, but I don't doubt that it could happen with certain razor style broadheads. Also, I have never heard of a documented case where someone was killed by blunt trauma from a vest that stopped a bullet. I would be interested in learning of any authentic cases. I am not claiming that blunt trauma cannot cause injury such as bruising or even a cracked rib, but I've never heard of a documented death.

I have 1/2" and 5/8" AR500 steel targets on my range at camp and have never had a .458 Winchester Magnum 500 gr. bullet do more than scratch the surface of the plates. However I will not fire my .220 Swift at those same plates at less than 200 yards for fear of penetrating or damaging them.

The ability of hard plates and armor steel to stop bullets varies with the angle of the impact and whether the plate can move when struck. The greater the angle and the more the plate can move or swing when hit, the better it will stop the bullet. These principles also apply to soft body armor.

Mild steel is another story. Lots of bullets that penetrate soft boiler plate will be stopped cold by a thinner sheet of genuine armor steel.

Todays hard armor is ceramic. It can only take a hit, maybe two before it is no longer reliable. I think a big bore would just shatter this plate, possibly penetrate and definately cause internal bleading. My 416 rigby will punch tenisball size holes in 2" concrete, so I hink that ceramic plate would be toast after the first shot.
When I was deployed, quiet a few people had to get replacement plates because they would drop them and they would crack.

It would be interesting to see them test a safari rifle on the new dragon skin armor.

I was wondering what the police used in L.A. a couple of summers ago, when a trio of bank robbers had all that armor on them and the police bullets were just bouncing off, while they used their AK-47 or AR-15 etc. to shoot the police and their cars.

Now somebody said a couple of police went several blocks down the street and got a store owner, to give them a big bore rifle to shoot those bad guys but I don't remember what the caliber was, so anyone want to chime in on that story?

The incident (known as the North Hollywood Shootout) occurred in February of 1997 (14 summers ago...time sure does fly, doesn't it?). The LA police did borrow some AR-15's from a local gun store, but the fight was over by the time they arrived on scene. One bad guy was taken out by arriving SWAT personnel who used department issued AR-15's, and the other committed suicide with a handgun after his long gun malfunctioned.

I have a steel target made of AR500 steel (its .400 thick) that I use quite a bit at the range. I bought it after a friend of mine let me shoot at his with my 6.5-284 @ 100 yards. I was launching 139 grain Lapua Scenars @ 3100fps and did'nt even make a dimple you could feel with your finger!


I shot this plate with hundreds of .308 fmj, not a scratch. So one day I thought I would see if I could penetrate this thing. First I shot it with a .375 H&H Magnum, 235's @ 2900 nothing, 270's @ 2600, slight mark but not a dent!


Next ,458 Lott with 350 grain Sierra JHP @ 2600fps left a mark, then the 500 grain Hornady FMJ, slight dimple, that was it. Then I tried some of the 350 grain Sierra JHP max loaded to 2700fps...they went right through the plate, I thought it was a fluke so I shot the plate again, right through! at 2600 no dice but at 2700fps the 350 went right through.


Then I wanted to see what my .500 Jeffery with 600 grain Woodleigh PP Max loaded @ 2400+fps would do. At the shot the plate went flying but the big slug did not penetrate the plate, though it left a giant golf ball size dent that pushed a good half inch into the back of the plate!


Bullet testing has always been interesting to me, but it often leaves me with more questions than answers.

Any round from .375 H&H on up would zip right through the toughest body armor made right now. I'm sure something could be made that would stop a big bore, but the weight would be so much that it would impractical to wear. Plus, there's not a whole lot of taliban muzzies shooting 416 Rigbys.

Body armor is made for small arms and frag, it's not capable of stopping big bore hunting rounds.

I read that, during the "Rodney King" riots in LA some years ago, the people at the Weatherby store (in South Gate?) got up on the roof with a .460 with solids with the idea of shooting the engine on any car that tried to smash through the front iron gatework. I don't think they actually had the opportunity to try it.

How did you know? Been sleepin with my gal Lois?

Actually, these are marketed by the hevi shot co as "Dead Coyote" rounds. They, ummmmm... work!

Your actually right, I saw some pics online, i'll see if I can find them i'll post them here or send them toyou, of a guy who tested type III body armor with various pistols, rifles, etc. and he put it in front of this hard clay like material. I can say that it stopped a 12 gauge rifled slug but the hole in the clay looked the size of a small basketball. So if a slug did that I can imagine the impact would atleast knock the assailant off his feet and atleast break a few ribs.

Haha I know, I just like to ponder and prepare for worst case scenarios. I like to know what my weapons or potential weapons are capable of.

It just made me think those bank robbers in LA who had ak's and body armor. Just makes me wonder what a real determined crook could do, or al queda terrorist, if they really wanted too. Their are hundreds of sleeper cells in this country, and at one phone call from Bin Laden or Al Zawahri or these other guys and they will all march out with ak 47's through residential areas and IED's, probably wearing body armor. Just something to ponder about. Well even if your Buck doesn't pass thru, the impact would be enough to knock them down to the ground and break a rib or too, which would buy enough time for a follow up shot in a vital area.

damn thats impressive. it'll definately go thru then, even the higher rated armor. Even if it didn't it would do some serious damage, probably break a lot of ribs

Thanks for the elaborate response. I'm not worried about soft armor, I was wondering if it could go thru hard armor.. the one designed to stop .308's , 5.56's, ak's, and 30-06's. I have a questions if you don't mind. Now is the ceramic plate better at stopping bullets then steel, or do they just use it because it's cheaper and lighter? Also, does the ceramic plates absorb the shock as well as steel? I can imagine that bullets just bounce off of steel while ceramic cracks and absorbs the bullet created more shock to the wearer. Also, would a terrorist like say al queda or some of these other scumags, practically they would probably get the softer armor or the harder armor? I mean i can't imagine them getting hard armor just because of the costs and weight, but at the same time, no one imagined they coudl fly a plane into the world trade center

that would definately be a good way to test it haha. Thats my feeling too, I think the ceramic would shatter and even if it didn't penetrate who ever is wearing that would get some broken ribs, allowing enough time to get a follow up shot in a vital area.

thats exactly what got me thinking about all this.. if some crook did that again, or even worse if al queda did that here at home.

interesting. It seems like the weatherby rifles would be good for this task. say a 416 weatherby or a 378 weatherby or 338 weatherby

Safariman - Oh, thank goodness...for a while there thought I'd need a protective suit to shoot those #4's. Didn't want to "glow in the dark" and become a nite-lite. LOL. BTW - say "HI" to Lois for me. Homesteader.

Polska - All the "Excedrin" in the world wouldn't relieve the head/body aches received IF I were hit by a safari rifle round wearing body armor. If it penetrates I'm screwed, if it don't I'm so battered and bruised (possibly killed anyway)
I'm screwed...a NO WIN situation anyway you slice it. How do you say "Rigby" in Taliban-ese? Homesteader.

There is no such thing as true bullet proof body armor or bullet proof glass.

They are manufactured as a temporary deterent/deflector if You happen to be lucky that day.

Gunner

IT should be advertised as handgun proof, not including 5.7 or 22 MAgnum handguns which I am told will penetrate and kill anyway due to the small diameter and high speed of those rounds. Again, I have NOT tested this theory or so called ' knowledge ' and it may be a gunners tale but have heard it and read it more than once. Again, I smell a testing coming on here.

Interesting topic and lots of fun intel and ideas coming to light in this thread. Anyone know where I can get my hands on some used body armor? I am not kidding here I really DO want to run some tests and report back. MARK

thats awesome. Maybe you could contact a body armor company and they'll let you do one for free. i'm sure they'd be interested in the results. Your gonna need to get a variety, first the softer, and then the harder ones meant to stop ak's, ar's, 308's, and I believe there is one level for vests that can stop a 30-06 travelling at 2800 fps w/ a 180 grain bullet. there are like 3 or 4 different levels and each level is rated for different weapons.

Gunner - "There is no such thing as true bullet proof body armor or bullet proof glass." What you're saying is all this "stuff" just might slow a round down a tad...make it hurt a little less?
Homesteader.

Several years I had the opportunity to shoot at bullet proof glass. We had two types of glass. One had 3 layers and was a out 3/4" thick. The other piece had 5 layers and was about 1.25" thick. The thicker glass was higher quality and for use in banks and so on. Both pieces were about 4 foot by 3 foot in size.

The loads I had were a 223 with 55 grain soft point, 308 with Australian FMJ military and 144 grains and 375 loaded with 300 grain Sierra and some older Remington 300 grain steel jacketed FMJs

The 3/4" glass stopped the 223 but I would not like to have been standing behind it, you would have need glasses. The 308 went through and embedded in an 8" tree we had the glass leaning against.

The 5 layer stopped the 223 completely. You have put your face and inch from the glass and without waeing glasses. The 308 militaty 144 grain FMJ was stopped and if you were wearing glasses you would have been OK standing behind it. In fact the 308 on the 5 layer high quality glass was similar to the 223 on the 3 layer lower quality glass.

The 5 layer glass stopped the 300 grain Sierra from the 375 but you would be in trouble if you face was behind the glass and even if you has been wearing glasses. The 300 grain steel jacketed FMJ went through the 5 layer glass and also the 8" tree behind the glass.

There are different levels of body armor. Anything that would stop a big bore with solids would make you look like the Sta puff marshmellow man.

Mike378 - your post pretty well tells me what would happen to an engine block vs. "solids". You've some interesting targets to shoot at. Regards, Homesteader.

Odd thing happened up in the Swan Valley back in the 90s. A anti-government nut-job shot a sheriffs deputy with a 41 magnum. The bullet didn't penetrate, but the bullet bent one point of the deputy's badge back into the vest causing it to penetrate the vest and sticking him in the chest.

With ceramic plates installed, I doubt it would penetrate. I doubt the wearer would get up after being shot, either. I have shot railroad backer plate at 100 yds. with 375 and 458 heavy FMJ and soft points. 7.62 NATO penetrates more, 5.56 about as much, and 50 BMG goes through and keeps going so far you don't have the energy to retrieve it. On a hard target, there is an advantage to having a smaller-diameter meplat projectile and higher velocity--less area to disperse the force.

I think a 416 of any flavor with the 400 gr Barnes Monlithic Soilds is a good SHTF gun.It will serve in many different areas you never thought of.It will open locked gates ,stop cars,open doors and many other wonderful uses.The 416 Rem mag or ruger,remington or Weatherby are good tools to have when the tough gets going!!!!!

dgr416 - when I purchased another .458 Winchester I said to my lovely wife "you never know when a rogue garbage truck will endanger the neighborhood" Regards, Homesteader.

My guess is an armor piercing bullet out of a 30-06 will penetrate armor better than a solid from my 500 Jeffery. Of course the Jeffery might push the vest well into someone's chest, be kinda painful. If I was looking for penetration from an African rifle caliber, I'd shoot a 350g .375 caliber solid out of a 375 or 378 Weatherby. Of course the 50 BMG with the right bullets was built for just that application.

I too like to test ammunition against hard objects. I have a piece of rail road track about a foot long, and also a backing plate that the rail sits on, on the tie.

One thing I have found is that speed kills. The faster bullets always penetrate deeper. A .458 Win. will knock it about 20 feet and penetrate about half way. A 7mm Wby will punch a hole all the way through. A .270 Win. makes a dimple. A .44 Mag. does not even make a dimple. A .30-06 will make a crater, but not penetrate all the way. A .300 Win. and and .300 Wby. will make a deeper crater, but not go all the way through.

I have a .300 RUM but have never tried it.

The 7 MM is the only once that gave complete penetration.

I have never tried any fast .22s or .24s or .25s, but I would guess that the faster the bullet, the deeper the crater.

Odd, but the 7mm did not actually penetrate. It knocked a plug out of the steel, about 1/2 inch in dia. It also had the rifling marks inside the hole it left, and also on the plug it knocked out. I found the plug about a foot beyond the steel.

My opinion is that body armour would not be effective with a rifle bullet traveling 3000 FPS or more. Perhaps not even that fast.

What if the attacker is standing behind a large tree and shooting at you? I have found that .30-06 FMJ military will penetrate a pretty large tree.

In south africa, .375 H&H rifles shooting solids have been used time and again for robberies on Cash in transit heists. The shooter killing the driver through the 2" armoured glass. I'd guess that Any big bore game rifle .375> will shoot through body armour!

Sorry - speed in and of itself does not kill. The only thing that kills is cessation of oxygen flow to the brain via CNS shutdown through whatever means. With bullets that is accomplished by tissue damage rendering said systems non-functioning.

"Sorry - speed in and of itself does not kill. The only thing that kills is cessation of oxygen flow to the brain via CNS shutdown through whatever means. With bullets that is accomplished by tissue damage rendering said systems non-functioning."

I was actually talking about a fast bullet will more than likely penetrate steel better than a slow, heavy bullet. I was not talking about tissue damage in game animals.

It has been my experience that high velocity bullets penetrate deeper into steel than the slower bullets.

But, since you mentioned it, an expanding, fast bullet of adequate weight will do a good job of tissue destruction, too.

I may have misread part of your post and sorry if I did. Regarding my experience with bullets I have never been highly appreciative of faste bullets mainly because I have seen so much damage rendering useless lots of meat. On the other hand, I have always bene impressed by a slower, heavier bullet and what it can do.

But that's what makes horse races, eh?

Jeff

"I may have misread part of your post and sorry if I did."

No harm. I meant 'speed kills' steel plates. I used to shoot a lot of steel plates with anything I had. I found that it was mainly very high speeds that would come closest to penetrating steel, either soft or hard.

You're correct. Destruction of major organs is what kills, regardless of fast or slow.

In my answer, the way I answered was not intended to be be-littling or sarcastic, but here lately, many of my posts have been taken as such. I meant no offence.

There were some posts a few days ago about some experiments performed by P.O. Ackley, using the .220 Swift. According to the post, P.O. found the .220 to be devasting on deer size animals, and that it would also do a number on hard steel, too.

I don't know how to the threads, but if some one can post a link, you might find the information interesting.

seems like it's all good.

cheers.

There is always a head above an amoured chest...

CMG - you've nailed it! That's what all the experts have said about big bore rifles...shot placement is key. IF you can hit the CNS consistently then body armor is of no concern. BUT how many of us can do that??? Homesteader.

I know that my .416-REM in a model 70 Winchester can penetrate 5/8 steel plate using a Solid Bullet.

In any case I would hate to be standing behind the vest with anything above a 22LR-and I'm not crazy about standing behnind the vest with one of those.

with metal, speed, and bullet shape penetrates better.
with ceramics and bullet proof glass, energy or momentum penetrates better. A guy did a test on bullet proof glass. he shot a 308 150gr and it was stopped. he shot a 45-70 500 gr and it busted through no problem

FWIW:

A 204 Ruger will penetrate a Steel target at 100 yards.

Saw it m'self on man-sized targets at ThunderRanch.

Pretty wild for a 20 grain vmax.

BMT

Haha, you also forgot: to take out tanks and aircraft

Polska - "tanks'...no problem. Just get your hands on a TOW, Hellfire or if you're really well heeled an M1A1 Abrams. "Aircraft"...you can go two ways...SAMS or Triple A. For that you'll need a very BIG Dillon press. How deep are your pockets? Neither choice is cheap BUT will get the job done. LOL Homesteader.

Aircraft yes indeed! Tanks, hell NO!!!

Tonk - "Tanks...hell NO"... sounds like the lament of a tread-head. Homesteader (0352).