How much meat in the barrel does the .404 Jeffery need? #5 @ .700 or #6 @.750? I would think a .725 #5.5 would be perfect but no one makes such a contour...

Sure they do, you just haven't asked them yet. Most manufacturers will turn whatever you want, you just have to ask. Some will charge you a little extra over their standard contours, but some will do it for free.

I used the #1450 contour Walther for my .404J project. the muzzle diameter is .700". I left it 24" on my SS M-70 Classic, .300 RUM donor action. It seems to have enough heft without being too heavy. Now, if I went with quarter rib, etc. that would add some beef.

Stock is a dense walnut M-70 factory take off I got from Gunner500, which adds some weight. Bottom metal is Williams. Shank is 1.230" and I left it long.

DF

DF, that is one awesome looking rifle. What does she tip the scales at? How many rounds does the magazine hold? Is there a reason you used a 300 RUM action other than length? Feeding ease? Have you decided what iron sights you are going to put on?

Of course. However, it may make finding things like iron sights a bit more difficult/overly expensive with a non-standard contour. But it is still an option. Thanks for the reminder.

9 pounds, 15 ounces with a Conquest 3-9x40 in Talley QD rings.

I'm going to work up loads with this configuration.

Not sure about irons or future configurations. I'll have to go with a different stock for irons, as this one is too straight, but perfect for scopes.

It feeds great from the mag, even feeding empties pretty well. I used the .300 RUM, as it's set up for the wider bodied round, as the .404J is the parent for the RUM series. Just the rim being a bit larger on the .404J.

Didn't check mag capacity. I think it's 3 down. Will double check that later.

DF

DF, what twist did you use - 1:14 or 1:16?

14 is the only twist offered by Walther.

DF

You're not going to find sights specifically for a #5 or #6, they're not "standard" contours either. The only standard contours are what come from the rifle makers themselves. First, the contour numbering system isn't uniform across makers, a #5 Kreiger is going to be different from a #5 Rock, there isn't a standard across barrel makers. Take a look at NECG sights, they come in a range of sizes and the final fitting has to be done by a gunsmith. The only way you're going to find sights to that fit perfectly without adjustment is to duplicate a factory contour and put factory sights on, which you probably don't want.

I've had quite a few custom barrels made and only a couple of times have I used one of the in house contours. Most of the time I've told them to turn them to factory contours so I could avoid messing with the stock inlet. If you want the barrel to finish at .725" then have them make it that way, any barrel maker that contours with a CNC lathe can easily do this. I ordered a barrel from Bartlein about a month ago that I specified the dimensions for, it wasn't one of their listed contours but they didn't bat an eye at it.

Don't make it more complicated than it is. It's a custom barrel, have them make what you want.

I went with a lilja 375b contour on my win classic 404 Jeff worked great with a custom shop safari express stock. I used a 26 inch barrel,but at 24 it is .720

Another suggestion for a .404 Jeffery, rebore a .375 H&H M-70 Classic, as those barrels are too heavy for caliber. They'd be about right for a .404J. You'd have to open the bolt face slightly and get a RUM box mag with the windows, or cut windows in the std. mag. as shown in the photo below. This .300 RUM M-70 Stainless Classic donor action had the feeding ramp lowered. I don't know how much one would need to alter a .375 H&H ramp.

The windows give more lateral room for the wide bodied cases.

DF

DF, the pictures make your point very well. Thank you.

The current plan is to go with a MRC 1999 LA. It has the features I want, is already outfitted for RUM class cartridges and since it is a Winchester clone there are plenty of options for bottom metal, etc. I have neither the patience or inclination to hunt down a pre-BACO donor action when the MRC action fits the bill for equal or lesser cost. The rebore would be a nice cost saving step if I was doing this bargain basement but I intend to do this rifle right the first time around with quality components.

MRC seems to have gotten its act together in the last year or two so I am willing to give them a shot. I am still in early planning stages for this project. I will be doing up a .30-06 before this one and will use that as a gauge on component quality etc.

I had looked at the MRC and agree, it's a solid option.

Keep us posted as your project evolves.

DF

Have a look at this link to Nitro Express and the 1905 404 Jeffery for a lovely old rifle.

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=226111&an=0&page=0#Post226111

Nice to see a bit of practical history every once and a while. Great shape for a rifle obviously well used and over a century old. Only 8.5 lbs and with a 26" barrel it looked like, definately some intelligent design there.

Neat.

Talk about box mag windows, that old Mauser has wall to wall "windows". In fact, the stock mag well IS the mag, only the back of the original box mag remains.

Pretty light for a .404J. Those old guys must have been a lot tougher than modern day folk. But, I don't think those old rounds were as hot as ours, today.

Sleek lines, I like it.

DF

some will do it for free.
__________________________________________________
Diablo 3 Gold|Diablo 3 Gold Kaufen|Aion Kinah

DF is right; the old load was 2150 to mimic the double barelled 450-400 of yore. I am sure it would be as adequate today. Local Cabela's had a Cogswell and Harrison 375 on hand and, at 26", the barrel mics .620 and it is dreamy. Tip Burns in Texas was working on one last year I held with a LW 5130 profile in 404J with a .625 MD at 26" and, it too, was awesome. Receiver was a Whitworth and all I can say is, Balance, Balance, Balance!

The weight of my 1905 404 Jeffery is under 8 1/2 # and the majority of it is in the uniquely tapered 24" barrel.
the original 404 did only provide around 2200 fps with the 400 gr bullet and so could be built light and handy, yet powerful enough for anything needed in Africa, Asia or Alaska. In fact mine was purchased by an American specifically for an Alaskan Brown bear hunt.

There is no doubt that the 404 can be loaded to match the Rigby but when you do you usually end up with a rifle as large and heavy as the Rigby.

Here is the 1905 Jeffery on right compared with a 416 Rigby with the magnum, drop box action. You can see that the original 404 is a lot slimmer and easier to carry.



You can see the how the barrel starts thick and quickly tapers to the barrel sling attachment and then steps down. I have seen other early English bolt rifles done this way and it really keeps the balance and weight centered between the hands and makes for a lively feeling rifle.

Thanks for posting, Phil.

You have some of the neatest rifles...

DF

Aren't all guns neat ?
some are just a little neater than others

Yours are "more neater"...

Besides, I like those old classics and new guns built along those lines, like your M-70 with D'Arcy's Legend stock in 9.3x62, light and sleek.

Your gun designs reflect years of use and lots of carrying.

DF

neat guns Phil.....especially since i keep thinking i need to turn my M1917 into a 404.....like the sight on the Rigby though....really want one of those for my Mannlicher Schoenauer....but have yet to find one that doesnt cost an arm and a leg.....

I've seen some great looking 1917 conversions, but you could be looking at a bunch of smith work, getting there.

Getting a donor M-70 in a RUM round, swapping barrels and doing some minor smithing on the action may be the least expensive way to get into a .404J. Selling off the surplus donor parts helps defray the net cost.

The one I showed earlier in this post is at around $1,200 all up as you see it. You could easily end up spending more than that with major smithing plus barreling the 1917.

DF

except i have a 1917 that is sporterized in 338-06 now so it just needs a new barrel and a smith to work on the action to get it to feed right....cant see how thats gonna eat up more than $1200.....

If you're just rebarreling, then around $500-600 plus some minor smith work on the action and bluing.

How about photos of that gun.

DF

doesnt look the best at the moment cause.....well im not going to go into that but here it is:

You have it looking pretty good. Everyone may not, but I like that safety.

For me, I'd have to replace the dog leg bolt handle and I'd have to go with a Timney or other good aftermarket trigger. And, of course, the cock on opening conversion kit. You may have that already.

It will take some smithing on the bolt face, the box mag, with feeding issues addressed for a .404J conversion.

I can't tell from the photo, but is there enough beef in that barrel to bore it out to .404J?

That ole '17 should make a good .404J.

DF

guess cause i know what it looks like in person im a lil rough on it....its a slight sore spot, was a learning experiance with what not to do when it comes to gunsmiths, even members here, didnt get what i was promised....i was young and stupid....

not enough beef for a 404 unless i cut it down to 18in or so....actually i like the cock on closing, or atleast im used to it as one of my first centerfires was an SMLE....have a 1895 and 1896 Mauser aswell, all cock on closing.....the trigger thats on it is fine, damn fine actually...

Sounds like you got a good start on a very nice big boomer.

You probably can't tell, but I really like the .404J...

DF

Here's a nice one, a .404J in a '17 action. Not mine, just a photo I had on my hard drive. I saw a photo of one by Tom Burgess that was even nicer that this one.

DF




Edited to add, I found the Enfield .404J by Tom Burgess. They don't get much nicer than this.

only complaint on Tom Burgess's rifle is if im going to change the saftey i might aswell start with a Winchester or Mauser....i like the 1917 on its merits and am not interested into making it something else.....that said the craftsman ship is outstanding....

my interest in the 404 is cause of my large Africana library, the Rigby and others are often stars of certain books but the 404 did the yoemans work for the majority of hunters using a bolt for the very reason of Phil's picture above and shows up more than any other in Classic Africa.....much nicer rifle to be packing day in and day out than the magnum mauser action.....

The quality of Burgess' work is breath taking.

Like I was pointing out earlier, one can spend a bunch of money turning an Enfield into something like this.

I see nothing wrong with the original Enfield safety and wouldn't change it to a 3 position, M-70 type. If that's what I wanted, I'd start with a M-70 donor and build a .404J like I posted.

DF

to me the 1917's safety is far more natural to use than anything hanging off the bolt.....but i also understand others wanting what they are familiar with, especially in a rifle meant for DG....

A couple of .404J links, more info, more photos.

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/7143935/1

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/7030594/1

I think I must have imprinted on one of the early 1950's H&H rifles when I was a kid as I too kind of like the retro look and usefullness of the 1917 Enfield safety

Like I wrote, earlier. Phil, you got some neat guns.

I really like this one. Fixing that ole ugly, dog leg bolt handle does a LOT for an Enfield, IMHO.

DF

Two questions here. Does anyone know the barrel dimensions of a .404 Jeffrey?

2nd..Does the Jeffrey .404 have the same outside barrel dimensions as a Rigby .416 or the WR .425.

The reason I'm asking is that if we want to build a rifle similar to a British medium bore rifle, we would also want it to "hang" offhand like a Brit rifle. Also, since all of these rifles came out of the same Mauser factory and are similar in caliber, the outside barrel dimensions should be the same/similar. The only major difference would be the action itself. Thanks for any input.

The .416 was housed in the Magnum Mauser action and only 'til after WW2 was it shoehorned into a standard action.

The .404 was shoehorned into the standard actions originally and later into the larger Magnum action when the larger action became available to Jeffrey.

The .425 I believe was always in a standard sized action since it was the shortest cartridge of the 3.

I don't see much positive stuff on the .425 as I do on the other two.

Not sure about some makers, but the M-70 Classic has the same outside contour for their express rounds. With the .458, and .416, probably not so bad. With the .375 H&H, way too heavy at 24". Much better cut to 21".

I think a M-70 .375 H&H bored to .423" for a .404J should work out OK. It would take some smithing on the bolt face, the box mag and feeding ramp, none of which is that major.

CZ's are pretty heavy in the big rounds.

DF

'Farmer...not too much positive on the .425 like you say but, there were a few out there that made them work. I've still got an article by Jack Lott about the .425. He owned one of the early high end WR rifles with a long tube. Those were not prone to mis feed like some of the later post war rifles were.

Precision Shooting May 2005 Has an article about all three of the .40 medium bores by J. C. Munnell called A GREAT TRIUMVIRATE. His solution for feeding problems was to have .425 brass made with a .532 rim....If a person wanted to do something similar, he could just use Ultra Mag brass, or if you didn't want any rebate at all....just use cut down and resized .404 Jeffrey brass.

The 1993 Handloaders Digest has an article by Francisco Magahaes detailing his experience with the .425 from the mid '50s until 1967 when he was unable to get any more ammo. All three of these articles provide some good info on the .425.

Dave,

By the time I spent all that time working over .404J brass to fit the .425 WR, I'd just as soon get a .404J and use shiny, new Hornady brass right out of the box...

DF

Too true.

Here is the diameter measurements of an original 1905 Jeffery 404






dia in front of receiver ring ---1.248"
3 3/8" in front of receiver - directly behind rear sight ramp ---1.054"
7 1/4 " in front of receiver - directly in front of rear sight ramp --- .986"
12 1/4" in front of receiver - in front of sling eye --- .852"
14" in front of receiver - large part of barrel step --- .768"
14 1/8" - directly below step ---.744"
24" - end of barrel .721"


As you can see, it is not a straight taper --- but the balance is wonderful.

A three legged stool, maybe. One leg, IMHO, a bit wobbly...

I, obviously, like the .404J. A .416 Rigby would be a close second, the .425 WR a MUCH distant third choice.

DF

Phil, many thanks for taking the time to measure your .404. Very unique without a mag box. Some very talented guys those Germans and Brits.

'Farmer....3 legged stool, good analogy.

Just fitted an Echols Legend on this .404J M-70 barreled action. I had to go that route for irons, this stock is for scopes, the comb a bit high for irons.

So, this stock is available for someone wanting to build a big gun on a "G" series CRF M-70. This one has the Williams bottom metal, which is one piece like the SC, FN M-70's. CDNN has a $9 filler to convert a one piece bottom metal inlet to the older two piece set up. Or one could use a spacer under the bottom metal at the front action screw and add glass.

PM me if interested.

DF

Here are some photos of the project in progress. Echols Legend hasn't been painted, and a few Bondo spots are seen. Photo doesn't show it, but the pad is dark brown and I'm thinking about dark brown paint.

I added a NECG barrel band, my first at that. Followed NECG instructions, wedged the soft steel band on the barrel with a block of wood and mallet. Took some material out with a Dremel drum sanding mandrel, kept cutting until it fit where I wanted it, then used Loctite #271 to anchor it.

First photo is with Talley peep on SS Talley bases. Second is with older 3X Leupold I sent for referb and German #4, third is with Zeiss Victory 1.5-6x42 T*, both scope in Talley QD's.

Wt. gun with peep, 8# 4oz.
Leupold 3X and rings, 13.6oz.
Victory 1.5-6x42 with rings, 1# 4.8oz.

Gun ballances at front of receiver and handles great.

I don't like fold down rear sights, this one replaced on my .375 H&H M-70 SS Classic. But with the peep, it makes sense. NECG front with fiberoptic bead. Windowed hood will follow.

Legend stock a compromise, irons and scope. Irons require a firm cheek weld but are easily seen.

DF

Dirtfarmer, you switched to echols just to accommodate usage of iron sights??

That and I just like the Legend, although the walnut is definitely prettier.

The Legend is slimmer and fits me better.

I'm going to paint it brown, so it won't look so pale and pasty next time you see it.

DF

Link on the .404J.

DF

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/6621191/1

Very nice DF, the crossbolts in the syn stock are a nice touch, hope ya paint around 'em.

Gunner

D'Arcy gave me the choice of magnum or regular fill. He put in the cross pins and said regular fill would work, which is what I chose. I then Steel Bedded the lug, bedding the rest with Acraglas Gel. BTW, he did a great job inletting for the Williams bottom metal, which I had sent.

For the rear sling swivel stud, I drilled a 3/8" hole thru the fiberglass shell into the core, filled the hole with glass and will drill the glass plug to anchor the stud swivel.

Not sure the right way to do that, just improvised. Bet it'll hold.

DF

It'll hold, the 404J is a gentle slayer.

Gunner

The way the cross pins are put in and ground flush by D'Arcy, it'll be hard to leave them prominent. I think he paints over them and that's the way these are set up.

DF

Final version...??

Earth Brown Aluma Hyde II from Brownells looks more OD than brown, in fact an OD/brown combo. That's OK. I like OD, too.





D'Arcy's bottom metal inletting is Echols perfect.



Both stocks.

Was thinking about keeping the walnut stock. Looking at these photos, the walnut may be too long for the barrel band swivel stud. Haven't fitted it on the gun, yet. Walnut is prettier, but I like the way the Legend handles and accommodates irons. Shallower grip helps keep trigger guard and bolt handle from banging the shooter's hand.

NICE, congrats DF.

Gunner

Gunner,

I see a lot of .404J load data for 400 gr. bullets, can't find any for 450 gr. Woodleighs.

I figured you'd be THE man with such info...

Or at least have an idea. IIRC, you've loaded for the .404J, just don't have one in your safe.

DF

Yes, loaded the 400 gr Woodleighs for a Bud of mine, a 450 grain bullet being roughly just over 10% heavier than the 400 grainers, take the load data I gave ya, reducing it by 10% would be a good place to start.

Gunner

Gunner,

Norma has 450 gr. .404J ammo. Their posted velocity is 2,150 fps with 4,620 ft. #'s of K.E.

It's the exact same for the .416 Rigby, 450 gr. at 2,150 fps with 4,620 ft. #'s.

Both not too far from the .470 NE with 500 gr. at 2,100 and 4,897 ft. #'s.

DF

Stylishly handsome rifle.

Thanks, Dave.

It's definitely a well balanced, fast handling gun.

DF

Got this email reply from Australia on loads for the .404J with 450 gr. bullets. Very helpful and from the main dude, himself...

Now, that's customer service...

450 gr. bullet in the 2,150 fps range is getting into serious firepower...


Hi Robert,
We currently have excellent working loads for H4350 only;
450 gr sn, CCI 250 or federal 215 primer;
76 gr. 2010 fps
78 gr 2050 fps
80 gr 2110 fps
82 gr 2160 fps.
Even the top load showed moderate pressure only, barrel length 24�. For 450 gr fmj, suggest you start at78 gr and work up.

Regards,
Geoff McDonald
Woodleigh Bullets
PO Box 15, MURRABIT, VIC, 3579, AUSTRALIA
Ph. 61 3 5457 2226
Fax 61 3 5457 2339
Email [email protected]
www.woodleighbullets.com.au

Hell Yeah DF, that will work in spades, I like several of my loads at 2150 fps velocity.

For example.

500 Nitro 2168 fps with 570 gr bullets
458 WM 2150 fps with 500 gr bullets
303 British 2160 fps with 215 gr bullets

Even the vaunted 450 Nitro and 470 Nitro push their 500 gr bullets at that speed...........it just works.

Good luck on your hunt.

Gunner

The .500 NE Merkel I shot was pushing 570 gr. bullets at 2,150 fps. I was expecting punishing recoil but was pleasantly surprised. Big push, no pushishment.

I was able to recover quickly and put the second bullet within 2" of the first at 25 yds. I believe I could do some damage with that gun...

The .404J doesn't even get to 5,000 ft. pounds, even with the 450 gr. slugs. But the 470 NE doesn't quite get there either, at least from the data I've seen.

DF

Phil,

I have to agree with some of the other members, your rifles tend to be the most interesting to me and definitely could win a "character" contest easily!

Thank you for those measurements. I am working on a 404 Jeff build and that information will be useful. I reviewed the thread on the Nitro Express forums where you had a little more information about the rifle and that was also helpful.

One question that I still have about the rifle is the relationship of the stock's barrel channel to the barrel. Is the barrel free floated or bedded in some manner?

Thank you for the information and insight.

Scott

Scott, the rifle and barrel are fully bedded - as you would expect on an English gun from the early 1900's.
I shot the rifle and found the sights were dead on and I carried the rifle for a few days at the beginning of our bear season this fall. but it ended up raining nearly every day of the season so I cleaned it and put it up and carried one of the new Ruger African versions in 416 Ruger. The two rifles are quite similar in weight, balance and performance.

Phil:

Again, thank you for the information.

I haven't been around any old English rifles in person, just an internet voyeur.

Scott