Some might remember that I recently moved from Green Bay to a small fishing town on Lake Michigan (or not). There are 5 places to get food in this town, all of them with the term "bar and grill" in the title.
Of those 5, 1 of them offers food above a burger.
So - I've decided that I need to learn to cook and cook well. That means gear and as someone who's never had his own kitchen before - I'm a bit lost.
What I'm thinking -
I need knives at this point. I don't own any. I think the ones a person needs to own first is:
Chef Utility Paring Bread
Correct? Probably also need a steel and block or some way to store them so they're not wrecked.
I have a limit on this initial purchase of about 500 but have no clue where to start with places to buy or brand. Originally though "Get a set of Shun/Wustoff from Amazon and call it a day" but reading reviews and such - the thought seems to be that they're more hype than performance for your dollar.
So I come to you - the Michelin star area of the campfire.
Thoughts around style/brand/retailer to start with?
teal, get yourself a set of Henckel's Four Star's (Zwilling J.A. Henckels) and never look back.
You've probably cut up some meat or fileted some fish in your life, but I'm tellin' ya, be careful when you first get them. They are sharp. They will last you a lifetime and then some, if you take care of them.
Good luck with your cooking! Stay tuned on this part of the forum and you'll be surprised how fast you ramp up your skills. Lots of great cooks here, who are probably their own worst critics, and that serves to keep raising the bar.
Wusthof knives are great, however they are expensive. I have almost a full set of Ikons but I have been getting them for years as gifts. They seem to hold an edge better than my Henckels knives FWIW.
My oft stated humble opinion is the K Sabatier Carbon Steel French knives rule. A 10 inch, a 6 inch, and a paring knife, will do it all. They keep a keen edge, are easy to touch up, and acquire a beautiful patina as they age, and you use them. The sharp, small tips are where real work is done, and these excel with that.
I could get by with nothing more than a good 8-10" chef, 6" flexible boning, and a bread knife. I have a number of my grandfathers old Forschners from his butcher shop back in the 70-80's. Fantastic old knives.
Wusthof knives are great, however they are expensive.
Sharp too! Did this with my chef's knife several years ago. An afternoon of beers and birthday shots followed by prepping for supper turned out to be not such a good idea!
Think rifles & optics: how they fityoutrumps all else. So handle as many as you can, & pick the ones that pick you.
There have been a few fairly useful knife selection threads on the fire (honest!), but I haven't the time to look them up just now. You generally won't go wrong with Henckels, Wustoff, Victorinox, Forschner, etc., so long as you stay away from any "value line" offerings they may have stooped to selling. I believe Dexter has several fans around here, too, though I've not tried one.
There's no need whatsoever to buy a complete "set". Chef is nonnegotiable: you must have one. As for the rest, though, consider your lifestyle. I personally use a boning knife rarely, a paring knife and bread knife sparingly. You may decide to allocate differently, and that's fine.
Don'tthrow them in a drawer. A magnet can work fine. If you choose a block, I'd suggest horizontal slots. Get a good steel, and use it. Dishwashers don't have to be forbidden, though it's a good idea to avoid detergents with lemon/citrus if you'll be putting knives in there.
You'll make a great choice. Send us pics once you do.
If you have never picked one up, the performance will blow you away; harder steel and thinner geometries. The caveats being they get hand washed (no dishwashers) and not to used hacking on bones or frozen foods.
Your 4 piece set is plenty and perhaps overkill depending on the type of cooking you will be doing. Most everything can be done with a good gyuto and small petty knife. Your budget allows for nice knives and some decent stones for sharpening.
Chef = gyuto Utility Paring = petty Bread
Two terrific sources here with exceptional customer service, knowledge, and general helpfulness.
Koki - Even though this guy is in Japan he has excellent 3 day service as standard shipping. http://japanesechefsknife.com/
I have a bunch of knives, so maybe for me it would come down to which ones would be the last for me to part with.
I had Dale Atkerson make me a huge and heavy Santoku out of D2. I use it like a chefs knife. I also love it for butchering deer. It's a slicer deluxe.
I have a couple of VG-10 Nakiris made by Shun. I use the hell out of them, they are superior slicers.
A VG-10 paring knife. I have several, and have used them for gutting a bunch of deer. They work superbly for that and general kitchen duty.
I have only had it for a short time, but a boning knife pattern I had Dale make for me is so versatile I think it is my last choice for down to four. 154CM and heat treated/tempered perfectly. 1/8 inch stock and quite stiff, but it filets fish beautifully, slices meat almost as well as the big Santoku and the handle is right for veggie work.
That two of the four would be other than VG-10 blades is surprising since I find VG-10 to be easy to sharpen and very hard to dull. It really is superior knife steel, and especially so for primary slicers.
Many Japanese style knives can be had with a western style handle (tend to be factory knives) or traditional WA handle - stick tang with the cross section is shaped like a D, oval, octagon.
Good forum here with a template for new to Japanese style:
I'll make a slight tweak to your list and find for me the four knives I use the most are:
Paring Chef Fillet Bread
And will add to the list
Something to keep them sharp. And you don't have to spend a lot to get good knives and you don't have to get a matching set. I'd say put the money into a top notch chef's knife, get a couple of victronox paring knives and my favorite fillet knife is a dexter russel.
^^^^^ Also agree on not needing to be a set. You can get very good knives from Dexter Russel or Victorinox. Not the best that can be had, and no one brags about this type of knife, but they are the ones you will see in most commercial kitchens and butcher shops.
If it fits your hand, it is good. Keep it sharp at all times. Too small usually works better than too big. 8" Chefs knife t start, boning knife, paring, carving to fill out as you go. Quality pays in the long run, but there is a lot of really good steel out there in the cheaper ones too.
As I mentioned, I've got my Henckels and won't be needing to buy any more knives. You get what you pay for with knives. If you're planning on cooking a lot, get some good stuff.
I got lucky a few years ago when I bought the last set as a gift for niece's wedding. 9-piece set with horizontal cuts butcher block and front cuts for steak knives was $150 out the door. Haven't seen that deal in a while. I know my set was over $300 when GF bought them for me 7 years ago.
My oft stated humble opinion is the K Sabatier Carbon Steel French knives rule. A 10 inch, a 6 inch, and a paring knife, will do it all. They keep a keen edge, are easy to touch up, and acquire a beautiful patina as they age, and you use them. The sharp, small tips are where real work is done, and these excel with that.
You may drink cheap beer, you may ruin good whiskey, but you do have it right on Sabatier.
I actually have a sixer of Dogfish Head 90 Minute Ale in the cooler as we speak. Heading off to spend the weekend killing hogs along the banks of the Ocmulgee river, in middle Georgia. Taking a liter of Old Weller Antique as well. Yeah, and an 8 pack of Coke, but what the hey?
That, my dear Sir, sounds like a weekend seized. Great plan. I would personally take mercy on the whiskey and dump the Coke where it does the least amount of harm but hey ;-)
Not sure if you have a decent cutting surface so I'd start there.
End grain wood (or sani-tuff) is what you want - easy on the knife's edge. This guy is selling out remaining inventory. I have one and it is far better made than the commercial brand Boos. Last a lifetime if cared for.
I actually have a sixer of Dogfish Head 90 Minute Ale in the cooler as we speak. Heading off to spend the weekend killing hogs along the banks of the Ocmulgee river, in middle Georgia. Taking a liter of Old Weller Antique as well. Yeah, and an 8 pack of Coke, but what the hey?
Teal, have to agree with EdM on Chicago Cutlery. I bought a set about 20 yrs. ago and still have no complaints. Set came with a smooth steel, which I recommend over any gritty sharpener. My $0.02 worth. YMMV.
If I were in your shoes, I would not be spending big $$ on knives especially at this stage.
This is especially so if a non knife person shares the kitchen and has access to them while you are not around..
I say this having owned examples of many of the knives already mentioned, from the cheaper ones to some of the top end German and French ones.
I would suggest the following..
10" bread knife (serrated edge) 8" cook knife 4" utility knife 3" small paring 3" small tomato knife (serrated edge) small pair of cooks scissors 2 different coloured chop blocks (keep one for raw meats/poultry only)
As for brands, I would suggest Kitchen Devils to start with..They are cheap as chips and keep an edge. Don't worry about sharpening them as they are cheap enough to replace any that go blunt... I would think you would probably have change from $75 and can use the rest of your budget on pots and pans ect, plus maybe enroling in some cookery lessons at night school?
If in 12 months you are still serious about cooking, then I would start looking at a decent 8" cooks knife and decent 4" Utility/Boning knife, plus a steel to keep them sharp..Even then, I would still keep the Kitchen Devils around as "beaters"..
Victronix makes great steel for not a lot of money. It ain't fancy carbon steel, but guaranteed it'll hang with it and be far more durable.
You'd be hard pressed to need more than a 8 or 10" chefs and a few of the little 3" paring knives. A 4 to 6" boner and a 8" butcher blade would be my next two. A decent pair of poultry shears are pretty handy.
I'd maybe look at one of Sam's K Sabs or a nice gyuto and fill out the rest with more utilitarian molded handle stainless type offerings.
Victronix makes great steel for not a lot of money. It ain't fancy carbon steel, but guaranteed it'll hang with it and be far more durable.
^^^^^^ The Mooner's given you some good advise IMO.
It's not like you're going to be processing a side of beef or dicing five gallon buckets of vegetables. I'd start with a 6" kitchen knife and 4.5" parer like this duo for around $50 from Victorinox.
Then get hold of Vince over in the knife forum and pick up one of his Russel Green River boning knives.
Like this, cept he does a better job than I do.
Spend the rest of the money on a good cutting board, a pair of shears, and two or three good pans and you'll be on your way.
Never seen the use for shears in a kitchen in terms of food prep.
How do you use them in that regard?
I use a set of SS anvil shears for cutting ribs when butchering a deer carcass..I have a couple of proper butchers bone saws, but for our small Roe and Muntjac, the shears are quicker and do the job just fine..
My wife bought a pair of shears at a Pampered Chef party a couple years ago. At first I thought they were a gimmick, but must admit I use them all the time when prepping chickens as described above. Great tool.
We use shears to splay chickens as posted, cutting chives - fresh herbs, cutting up the length of the shell on crab legs and other seafood, cutting cooking string/wire, as well as, just having a simple kitchen utility tool handy.
These shears from Gerber are hard to beat. I like them because they've got a 'bone notch' which works good for cutting wings and tails off of pheasants. Keep them in my bird hunting box, but they work just as well in the kitchen. The blades come apart for easy cleaning as well.
A big +1 on the Gerber game shears. Bought a pair about 7 years ago for a pheasant hunt. Have used yearly since then in South Dakota where we've been fortunate enough to go through up to 24 birds daily for a week's hunt. Use them year 'round, mostly for splitting chicken wings; but they have much greater use factor than I've tried. And as already posted they come apart easily and are easy to keep clean.
Some might remember that I recently moved from Green Bay to a small fishing town on Lake Michigan (or not). There are 5 places to get food in this town, all of them with the term "bar and grill" in the title.
Of those 5, 1 of them offers food above a burger.
So - I've decided that I need to learn to cook and cook well. That means gear and as someone who's never had his own kitchen before - I'm a bit lost.
What I'm thinking -
I need knives at this point. I don't own any. I think the ones a person needs to own first is:
Chef Utility Paring Bread
Correct? Probably also need a steel and block or some way to store them so they're not wrecked.
I have a limit on this initial purchase of about 500 but have no clue where to start with places to buy or brand. Originally though "Get a set of Shun/Wustoff from Amazon and call it a day" but reading reviews and such - the thought seems to be that they're more hype than performance for your dollar.
So I come to you - the Michelin star area of the campfire.
Thoughts around style/brand/retailer to start with?
I totally agree with your well-thought-out four choices in the TYPE of knives you absolutely need.
Of all of my set of 4-star Henckel knives (which I strongly recommend to you) the most used is definitely my 8-inch chef's knife. I have a 10-inch chefs as well, but it's rarely used except for chopping salad stuff. The 8-inch chefs is better balanced when held correctly and thus used a LOT more than the 10-inch chef's knife for a multitude of duties.
That said, let me list the most-used knives in numerical (most used) order:
1) 8-inch chef's knife 2) 4-inch paring knife 3) (tie) 8-inch bread knife (I love home-made breads & make 'em a lot) 3) (tie) 7-inch utility knife (used for general carving/cutting plus for carving holiday turkeys) 5) 10-inch chef's knife (only used to chop veggies for salads and not often used) 6) 9-inch carving knife (used twice a year on Thanksgiving & Christmas turkeys) 7) 5.5 inch boning knife (rarely EVER used. I let the butcher do that) 8) Henckel Cleaver (never used, I don't even know where it is. Again, I let the butcher do the chopping)
For "cooking Chinese", I have & use an 8-inch Martin Yan cleaver which substitutes for 'most all knives fairly well... plus it works fine as a dough scrapper as well to scoop-up finely chopped ingredients. Of course, one must not become too "forceful" when scooping-up ingredients while "blocking" the ingredients with one's other hand since this cleaver is extremely sharp and holds it's "edge" quite well.
A lot of these threads just end up being name dropping exercises.. Chopping up onions for hamburger helper or some, wow, salsa - "hey, look at my knives.."
I should post a vid of me using my 10" trident chef, one I've had since working behind the line, doing what it does best - punching holes in the tops of #10 cans.
A lot of these threads just end up being name dropping exercises.. Chopping up onions for hamburger helper or some, wow, salsa - "hey, look at my knives.."
I should post a vid of me using my 10" trident chef, one I've had since working behind the line, doing what it does best - punching holes in the tops of #10 cans.
I'm a bit different i guess, i prefer the japanese blade styles- I find that a 9-10" santoku blade beats a chefs knife every time for overall utility and the sujihiki makes a great slicer.
for most 'American' style cooking, Japanese blade shapes do not work well. Santuko is the most useless of them all. There are reasons different cultures, eating different foods, with different prep methods, settled on certain blade shapes and styles.
20 years of using them-so far they haven't proven to be to useless. Curious how it is you find they don't work well? I've always found the slight curvature to the belly of the blade to be perfect for dicing, chopping..basic prep work which is what a santoku is designed for, general utility.
for most 'American' style cooking, Japanese blade shapes do not work well. Santuko is the most useless of them all. There are reasons different cultures, eating different foods, with different prep methods, settled on certain blade shapes and styles.
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