Now that Berger and others are making match bullets in 270 WSM, what advantage does the 6.5X284 or the 7mm WSM have?

Tell me, why I would not just stick with a 270 WSM for long range shooting?

TTSX, E-Tip, Berger, Sierra Match King, Ballistic Tips....

What am I missing here?

No advantage to the 7 WSM case (perhaps a slight edge in powder capacity). But why do you think the 270 is superior to the 7mm???

It's a coinflip; 6 one way and half a dozen the other. Just like the argument that the 270 Win is superior to the 280... or vice versa.

Personally I prefer 7mm caliber rifles... I've got 2 7-08's, a 280, 7WSM, and a 7 RM. I wouldn't give 2 cents for anything in 270, cause then I've have to buy all new boolits for reloading

I have lots of 270 bullets because mrs walter has a 270 win.

Perhaps the answer to your question lies in the BC of the Berger VLD bullet. But then again maybe not.

There are two very high BC VLDs for 7 mm: 168 with a BC of .643
and a 180gr VLD with a BC of .684

The highest BC I found for the 6.5 is a 140 VLD with a BC of .640

Berger's website didn't show any 270 VLDs but websites are usually behind. I did some digging and found these two bullets mentioned but cannot verify through Berger tonight:

.277 Berger 140 VLD at 3100 fps .510 BC
.277 Berger 150 VLD at 3000 fps .545 bc


Now there can be two ways to evaluate the listed bullets. Either by BC, the highest BC tends to be the best for minimizing drift. Or which bullet offers less drop due to more velocity. You can crunch the numbers and decide what suits you.

Probably just best to stick with the current rifle and try the VLDs available for that caliber. There is no guarantee you'll get your rifle to shoot VLDs. Nor will there be a guarantee one of the other calibers will shoot them either. That makes the arguement of using Berger's bullets moot.

FYI I have tried various VLDs in the following: 308, 300 RUM, 7 RUM, 7 Rem Mag, 284 win, 7 STW, and two 257 Weatherby chambered semi customs. Only the 257s (115 VLD) and the 7 STW (168 VLD) shot them.

Try them and let us know how it worked out.

BC

6.5x284 140 VLD, 640 BC, 3,000 MV

270 WSM 150 VLD, 545 BC, 3,000 MV

7mm WSM 168 VLD, 643 BC, 3,000 MV

I would think it would take a faster twist and longer action to handle 7mm 180 VLD's.

The 6.5 matches the WSM's with less bullet weight and 10 grains less powder, via less recoil.

That's just my observation and one of the reasons I built a 300 WSM. I wanted heavier bullets to put on elk at distance. My 6.5 already covered the same ground as the sub 30 short mags for deer / elk or paper/metal.

I'm open to others thoughts or experiences as well.

also, The VLD's I've tried in 6.5 and 30 cal have shot lights out, sub moa.

Yeah I was a little disappointend in the BC on the .277 VLDs, I was hoping for around, .600 or better. The Hornady 140 interlock worked out to about .490 in my rifle at 3000fps.

Eric made a comment on another website that is was worked up with an eye towards terminal performance and accuracy in the average rifle rather that a more effecient ogive that would require seating into the lands.

It might surprise a few to hear that the rifles that I did get to shoot the Berger VLDs were not into or even close to the rifling.

The 7 STW using the 168 has a .170" jump and the two 257s using the 115 has a .070". A shooting friend made two 257s as well and he chose .100" jump. The 257s all used a custom reamer made by Dave Kiff with less freebore. The STW was a standard reamer my smith had.

I suppose if one works hard enough a sweet spot could be found that doesn't put the bullet into the rifling. I was unwilling to do that with the other rifles. They didn't show the potential that the above rifles did with the preliminary loads so I didn't bother.

FYI a friend bought the 3 CD package that Best of the West sold.
Most of those kills were done with the 168 VLD from a STW going approximately 3200.

Berger bullets have a weird kind of step up to caliber ogive last I toyed with them. Once you found the right depth you were ok, but finding that could drive you nuts. Always found it much easier to get JLKs to shoot right, right away.

But don't discount the bergers... due to this thread I may have just changed my mind about some up coming 7mm wildcat loads for deer hunting.... 168 berger or similar may get tested right quick.

Jeff

AZshooter,

What did you think of the CDs? Im looking at a gift for a buddy. Im usually not real big on most shooting shows but I do like the way they preach preparation and practice rather than coming across as guys just going with SWAG for a shot.

I found the 3 dvd set very entertaining and informative. It caused me to change some things I did. I ended up adding M1 turrets to six my Leupold scopes. I adopted Berger VLDs for the 3 ling range hunting rifles.

Take notes when you get to see it, as you will want to review some of the comments. From a teacher's standpoint there were a few approaches that could have been done better, but on the whole it was well thought out and presented.

There was plenty of long range shooting with kills to get you excited, then detailed step by step how-tos on getting there.

Personally I don't think you need the reticle presented in the videos nor do you need their scope. A good scope with just an elevation turret, a rangefinder, and common sense with perhaps an anemometer would get you started. You don't need to have the yardage on the elevation turret either. MOA adjustments are just fine. A horizontal crosshair with 2 MOA dots or tiny hash marks would be nice. It is not found with many scopes until you go very high dollar like the Nightforce with its NP-R2 reticle.

I could have added a windage M1 turret but opted not to do it. Instead I chose high BC bullets that minimize drift at distances I would shoot comfortably. Those 3 rifles with VLDs have 9 1/2 to 10 1/2 inch drift with a 90 degree crosswind blowing at 10 MPH at 500 yds. If it is blowing near 10 MPH or above I don't shoot that far PERIOD!

By the way ever feel what a 10 MPH wind actually feels like? I got a Kestrel and was amazed at how much faster it is than what I believed.

Buy the videos and enjoy!

I have actually had better luck with the 130 Norma Diamond Line and the same naked bullet at 3200 fps from a 6.5x284.

Pre- rangefinder days, we would push long barreled 300 WBYs to 3600 fps + with various 150s for long range coues whitetail hunting. With the ballistic programs, turrets and such so readily available today, the very high BC bullets are the only ones that make any sense in long range shooting. There were some 240 grain tungsten core match bullets there for a while that had BCs in the .9 range. They were just too expensive to shoot!

We used 220 grain SMKs in a 30-378 last year for elk hunting. I think this is hard to top with a rifle that can be fired without a muzzle brake!

Howdy Dennis,

I just crunched the numbers for that 220 SMK. Sounds like a nice package. Minimal winddrift and some serious retained energy downrange. Bet it put a few feet in the air.

A friend just finished up a 338 RUM shooting 300 SMKs. It has slightly better performance over the 30-378. His rig is not a walk around package. I have shot it without a brake and it isn't too bad, but it weighs 13 lbs.


I too used to send out the screaming bullets to keep the trajectory flat. No need today. No substitute for high BC with rangefinders and turrets.

An interesting wind note, used to listen to the seasoned military shooters at nationals... They would guess the wind. Sometimes on, sometimes off... then many years ago I bought a kestrel.... will really open your eyes both ways.... I won't go without it if having to take a long poke in any kind of wind.

Jeff

BTW BOTW is like anything else out there, trying to be millionares... I kinda hate hunting shows due to this trend of selling things that are not needed.... But if you get past that part and realize you can do without what they preach, you'll be fine.... I"ve been shooting 600 and beyond since the late 80s, I know it can be done and realize I"m way better generally to click than to hold off.... thats the big thing to me.

Jeff

If you are talking match shooting the 6.5& 7MM still offer more bullet choices and opportunity to find the best load bullet for the conditions you are shooting. given equal rifles, quality of componets and workmanship all the cases are very competitive and accurate. The .284 case does seem to be a good balance between shootabiliy and performance hence it's popularity as a match round.

Lefty C

Lefty C.

You mentioned the 284 case. I am sure you are answering the original question on the 6.5-284.

Seeing you said the 284 was a great balanced case,I just thought I'd throw this out...I have a 284 win that is a short action Ruger with a Rem 7 mag takeoff barrel setback and rechambered to 284. The stock is a Mickey Ruger Ultralight. Weighs 7 1/2 lbs.

A couple of years ago I got jealous of my friend's NULA in 7-08 with its 3" mag box. I had my smith lengthen mine to 3".

Recently I tried the 168 Berger VLD and the Hornandy 162 A-max. The Berger didn't shoot but the A-max does. It is an amazing package. 2900 fps at 90 degrees, 55 gr of H4350 with moly coated bullets. It shoots ragged holes. Can't wait for the 3-9 x 40 VX II scope to come back with a M1 turret. Gonna put it through its paces this summer.

The real beauty of this rig is the fact that another SPS rem barrel installed costs $150. The barrel is completely floated so no extra work is needed. This pic shows the rifle with its third 284 barrel.

AZS,

Very nice set up, I'll always have an itch for a 284 Win.

+1
LC

Thanks for the complements.

Ross

That's impressive, especially coming from a Ruger! I never could get mine to shoot better than 1" 5-shot groups (7mm-08) and the best bullet I shot was the 168 MKs. I killed a lot of coyotes with the 110 TnT. This was in the day that 284 brass was so horrible and that's why I didn't go that route.

I am still waiting on my action for my 6.5-284, but am somewhat tempted to do a 6.5-06 imp. I guess I can use Lapua 270 brass and have some good components and it's good for an extra 100 fps over the 284 case...

Dennis,

Thanks for the kind comment. It is actually a M77 tang safety Ruger hybrid. As I mentioned it has a Rem barrel. It doesn't even have Ruger rings. It has the super lightweight S & K rings, which BTW are discontinued. The only thing Ruger is the action mag box, and floorplate assembly.

I have three M77 tang safety hybrids and they all shoot. I feel very fortunate to have a good gunsmith with Joe Reid at Lawson's here in Tucson. He is the reason those Rugers shoot.

David Van Horne in Gilbert had someone cast him some replacement pieces for the floor-plate hinge part that has the guard screw through it. Instead of being angled, it is strait. He taps a new hole into the receiver and pulls it straight down instead of in on an angle. The angled received bedding are quite sensitive to torque on the guard screw. I guess he figures he knows more about this than the Ruger engineers and gets them to shoot better this way. I haven't tried it myself, so can't comment. I have a new Ruger Hawkeye but haven't taken it out of the stock so can't comment on whether they are the same or not. I thought Ruger barrels were pretty good so it surprises me that just changing barrels makes all the difference!

Rugers angled bedding is a disaster IMHO. Works good when it works but has been way to finicky.. Ruger has always been borderline with me. Plus being antigun, some of what they came up with was stupendous, some stupid and beyond....

Jeff

Based on my experiences with the older M77 tang safety Rugers many were not that accurate. I bought a new 6 mm rem and it was terrible, would only shoot the 100 gr semi roundnose Sierra . The worst was a 7 x 57 that had a ton of freebore. IMO both had chambering issues. As for other Rugers shooting I would say that shot okay but not great. I know Ruger didn't make their barrels in the beginning, have read many stories here about inaccurate guns.

The only reason I have rem takeoffs or Liljas on my Rugers is that I found all but one used. I do have two out of three Rugers bedded, the 284 is just sitting in the Mickey stock. I just don't buy new rifles that often. Lawson's has good reamers and a talented gunsmith, I feel it made the difference. All I know is the rebarreled rifles really shoot.

I have never experienced any problems with the angled front action screw. It is harder to bed. I suppose I am not very scientific, I torque down the front and back action screws as hard as I can with one hand.


Rost495, right after I posted I saw your post...what do you mean by Ruger being anti gun? Sounds like a strange statement for a company that makes firearms.

the 270 still isn't the total long range answer, the berger bullets out in .277 still aren't that high a BC, berger admitted they held back a bit on the profile of the bullet. the .284 and .264 bores still have a sizeable advantage IMO for really long range I am talking beyond 500 yards. if you wanna wack something way out there try a 140 berger from a 264 win mag at 3200 fps, thatall getter done.

Azshooter,

Bill Ruger was a featured attraction at the Congressional hearings wherein they debated whether we civvies should be "allowed" to have semi-auto firearms... and hi-cap magazines. This must have been... early 90's?

Mr. Ruger had a positively Zumbo-esque comment at the time, to the effect that "no law abiding citizen needs more than a 10-round magazine". That pissed some people off as you might imagine.

-jeff

Yep never bought another ruger after that.