If you guy were going to set up a long range rig with the focus on elk that would also take the occasional mulie and speedgoat at say ranges from 400 - 600 yds. but you may stretch it out to 700 yds + on the rare occasions, what caliber (not cartridge) would you be looking at? With a huge consideration on bullet availability and integrity to dispatch an elk at those longer ranges?

338

.264, .277, .284, .308. Whatcha got?
Respectfully, If you don't have a pretty good idea what cartridge it takes, it's pretty unlikely you would have the skills to kill reliably at the ranges listed. Caliber choice is the smallest part of that equation.
For any but an expert 400 yards is a looooong way away.

Easy a 7mm.

I have had first time "long range" shooters hit a 10" gong every time at 500 yards. These are guys that shoot maybe once, twice a year, other than hunting. It's not that complicated with the right gear, and some knowledge.

R.

.338 Lapua

.416 Barrett with a BORS system. Shoot 'em at 1,500 yards, eat right up to the bullet hole.

300 win mag

30-378 Wby-what the hell.

First choice would be a FN PBR 300 WSM like this.

http://www.fnhusa.com/le/products/firearms/model.asp?fid=FNF048&gid=FNG021&mid=FNM0133

I would then swap the stock into a Manners MCS-T stock.

For the scope, a Leupold new VX3 6.5x20x40 LR with an M1 dial.

Kinda of a hybrid long range hunting rifle, heavier, but not to heavy.

I would prefer a Rock 1/8 twist in 7wsm and shoot Berger 168's and 180's.

The very same one I've been using for a bit over a couple of decades now.

It's ready for it's 9th barrel as I believe in being fairly intimate with your rig...grin

M700/7 Mashburn Super (or any other of a number of big 7's)
4.5 weight Schneider cut to 25"
Brown glass stock (could go with others as long as they're sub 28 oz's)
Talley's
Uncle Mikes Mtn sling
4-14 Leo with Premier dotz to 700
150 NBT (this is what I mainly use but have used many others)

From my past experiences with the big 30's and the big 33's I have come to be very comfy with the big 7's. I feel they're a bit more user friendly and yet incredibly capable on big critters at long range.

4 me, this rig is perfect for exactly what you're talking about and have proven it many times at long range over the past 20 plus years.

Good luck in your decision

Dober

Side note, if I just wanted to do it the easy way I'd do a Big Sky in 7 WSM and shoot the beans out of it.

Dober

SU: That's an interesting rifle. What is a Manners Stock,and is there a problem with the factory FN stock?

Bob,

Here is their site,
http://www.mannersstocks.com/

They are just as good as any Mcmillan in every way with half or less the lead time.

The FN stock is a Houge while not a bad stock not anything like a Manners or Mcmillan

I should just say,

Action, FN SPR OR PBR.

Barrel, Rock 5R SS 1/8 twist 26" in 7 WSM. Same taper and flutes as the PBR rifle.

Scope Leupold 6.5x20x40 LR with M1 dial.

Stock, Manners


I now own a FN SPR rifle in 300 WSM with a Mcmillan A4 stock M40 taper which is heavy. It's not a carry rifle.

SU: Interesting...thanks for the information on this.

Bob also check out Wildcat composite in Edmonton.

My favorite long range rig is my 257 STW with 100 gr Barnes Triple Shocks

Mike: Got it;thanks.

Gee, Mark, I had a guy on another forum explain quite forcefully that dots (or any reticle) aren't any good much past 500 yards, that you gotta be runnin' turrets at 600-700....

CC Roy,

My .338 is my most reliable "hitter" out to 650 yards. That's as far as the reticle gets me.

I have to think it'd do OK on an elk out that far, but I have not shot one at that distance. I run the 225 Accubond.

By the way, an accurate rifle that you shoot a LOT and shoot well, is really the key here...

30 CAL

Best advice on 400-600 yard shots. DON'T. 600 yard shots are for military sniper teams hunting terrorists, not on game animals!

Me smells a troll from ideeho

......I`d use either of these three....A fast 7mm, a fast 30, or maybe a fast 338.

As for bullet selection I like the high BC Berger hunting VLDs. On my next elk hunt, I will try the 30 cal 190 gr Berger (hunting) VLD. N/A in 338.

If a Berger VLD with one shot from a 7mm Rem Mag can down an elk successfully at 925 yards as seen on the Best of the West TV show, there shouldn`t be a problem with their effectiveness out to 700 yards, assuming of course, one has good long range optics for yardage and windage adjustments to properly place the shot.

I like the VLD bullet concept. For elk you can aim at the shoulder rather than at behind the shoulder. They penetrate bone at shorter and longer ranges and after a few inches of penetration, they begin to fragment and give tremendous shock value to the vitals.

I have read many successful accounts on elk using the hunting VLDs.

+1 Idaho! How about a 30-06, 180gr Partition at 2835fps and an elk at 400 yards or less. Now if you want to talk long range Somali pirates or any other terrorists - have at it! Humanely of course - environmentally approved fmj.

I would say a fast .277, 284, 30, or a .338 with very high BC bullets.

What are you and Idaho doing on the long-range forum? It you don�t agree with long-range hunting just move on.

And what makes you draw the line at 400 yards and not 50 or 100????

joecool544: goodbye...

I would bet you 10 dozen Canaidian Beer that with any one of my appropriate rifles you could hit a one gallon milk jug at 500 yards with one shot. If couldn't do it, you have no business shooting any rifle, at any distance.. The double period is on purpose. Period.

R.

Well......I can't really agree with THAT.The statement probably excluded the majority of African and Alaskan professionals who handle a rifle competantly every day of the year.There are many people who are fine and competant riflemen who would not consider shooting at a game animal at 500 yards under any circumstances...and who hunt very successfully every year.Just because they may not know how to hit at 500 yards does not mean they are incompetant,or should not be shooting a rifle.

I could impose the same arbitrary limitation by saying that if you cannot handle a shot on a running deer under any circumstances inside 200 yards,you should not be handling a rifle.But the limitation would be arbitrary and without justification.

Guys on here like JoeCool and jwp have invested the time,money,and expended the rounds with specialized gear to be able to hit effectively at 500 yards and beyond.But as a general rule,most hunting success has little to do with shooting beyond 300 yards,except in specialized conditions or circumstances.I agree it is a bonny good idea to know how to do it,though

I have great respect for the guys that practice with their long range rigs so they can make that long shot if needed. If I were to make a long shooting rig for elk I would seriously consider the 338 RUM with 300 gr Sierra Matchkings. I would have turrets and a proven drop chart. Darrell Cassell has had great success with this bullet as have others. as a matter of fact when my 9 lb McMillan stocked 300 RUM gets tired when I rebarrel it will be a 338 RUM.

http://www.precisionlongrangehunter.com/articles_hunting.htm

AZ: I think a specialized LR rig is the best "home"for a big 338 :)JMHO

on the off topic part of this, the only thing one need be is 200% confident(and not just in your head, but proven confidence) that you can make the shot you are about to attempt. Don't care if its 5 steps or 500....

Things get wonky at 500 yards. Or, better way to say it: they can. I shoot out that far and farther all the time (did it yesterday fer instance) but I'd hate to be judged "rifleman or not a rifleman" on my ability to hit a gallon milk jug at 500 first shot from field positions.

That's a missable shot, with a general-purpose hunting rifle, in unknown conditions (no sighter) etc.

Just throwing this out there... but how about this as a descriptor for a longer-range elk rig (not LONG range, just out to 600 yards or so):

"It will ACCURATLY shoot a bullet weighing at least 150 grains, with a BC over .5, and a muzzle velocity over 2800 fps."

Give me that rifle and a couple weeks to get used to it, and I could do some damage!

probably work if the choice of bullet was correct. BC over 5 helps, but isn't needed. MV is a good start.

Still for 500 yard shots my 308 would ding that target every time. Field condition shots to me for that distance says prone on a backpack...or pass.

Oh yeah, you think over 500 gets squirrely? 800 is a breeze compared to 900 or 1000 plus.... there is another big step in there around 800-900...

I believe it Jeff. Still working on finding somewhere I can shoot out that far, that isn't crazy windy... and a way to see my misses...

The rifleman is more important than the specific rifle or caliber. Understanding of trajectory, wind doping, accurate position shooting in the field, calling shots, is a fundamental prerequisite to taking a long range shot on game. Lots of disciplined practice is the key here.

The rifle - accurate, consistent, reliable - is more important than the caliber. The laser rangefinder has opened the caliber menu more than in the days of educated guessing. In scopes, I do like the B&C reticle, but that's in the technique department. I'm not fond of turrets, especially on an elk rifle I have to pack.

The caliber - my nod goes to the .300 Weatherby Magnum presuming that the above requisites are met (consistent, accurate). The flat trajectory is a hedge. There are other fine calibers out there, including non-magnums, but I have found the .300 Weatherby to be the easiest rifle to hit with I have ever used.

My choice .340 weatherby I have owned my G.McMillian
rifle for some time now. It's Just a tick slower than the .338 RUM but I have been shooting this thing since way before the .338 RUM was on the market. It will take an Elk like he was hit by Lightning.
I mostly carry a lighter rifle these days in 35 whelen but would not hesitate to take a 400 yard poke with it.
For you guys practicing and shooting long range Good on Ya
I would venture a man who shoots long range regular enough to know whats up will Be more accurate at 600 yards than the average hunter is at 100 yards especially if he has adjusted his equipment to the task.
The Naysayers are just Nancies who need something to snivel about. They blame their own shortcomings on ethics. Nice try.

I am not a skilled long range shooter. It is a skill I have not been trained in nor practiced. I generally limit myself to point blank range (the range were I don't have to compensate for drop). But that is my chose.

I have no problem with people that can and do kill long range. Just because I can't do something doesn't mean I should impose my limit on someone else.

For me it also becomes a distance were I can no longer judge the quality of the game. I have spent about $1000 in non gun mounted optics. I do not have the skills with them and critter judging to say 'I will shoot the one on the left up the hill'. Plenty of others do.

There's long range, and then there's Long Range.

Out to 500, maybe 600 yards guys would be pleasantly surprised at how quickly, easily, and cheaply they could get "hits" on targets (at least) at those ranges- most likely with the rifles they already have. Most normal hunting calibers will carry enough velocity to expand the bullet out that far, too.

A rangefinder, reticle, and some practice will do it most easily.

From 600 on out, that's big boy territory there. There are some guys that hang out here- JWP, Rost495, joecool, and others who have invested some big time and money into getting good at those extended ranges. It gets into specialized equipment and LOTS more practice, as things get almost exponentially more difficult very quickly as the yardage increases.

Just MHO, based on a few thousand rounds flung off into the void.

.284 caliber...7mm Rem Mag or 7mm STW......
the STW will do 160/168's at 3200ish.....or, 140's at 3400ish
trajectory of a 140 at 3400 is pretty much equal to the 160 at 3200 but the 160 will have more energy at longer ranges........how much energy do you need for deer and antelope?

The gentleman who originated this ask a simple question--what caliber-- and all you people are giving him the constitution of bull sh--. because most of you have never see 600 yards much less shot at that distance.

30-06 would be a great caliber for what you are wanting to do. Not too much recoil. Plenty of ammo to choose from. Put some money into good glass with repeatable adjustments that will take you out to whatever range you hope to shoot at.

......Oh really? Don`t bet on it!

Yes! The originator of this thread did ask for a caliber and not for a specific cartridge itself. Well! The last time I checked, aren`t there are varying degrees of range capabilities within the same caliber?????????????

The 338-378 Wby and 340 Wby are certainly much better long range elk cartridges then say a 338 Federal. Aren`t all three 338 caliber???

Same for the 25`s, the 6.5s, the 270s, 7mms, the 30s, the 35s and so on.

If someone asks for a great long range elk rig in caliber only, how in the world could you not include specific cartridges as well?

Instead of your "constitution of bull***t" remark, why couldn`t you have just given some of those here on this thread, some of the benefit of your doubt?

PS. BTW! I have seen 600 yards and have shot at those distances, in the desert..........

30 or 338 Caliber since you mention elk. My two choices are 300 WBY and 340 WBY. Hitting is one thing, killing is altogether different. I wouldn't want to hunt antelope with a 340 WBY though

Back when I was running amuck with my 700/340 I shot a lot of lopes with it, it worked just fine. Always adequate penetration...

Dober

The 340 Wby is hard to beat if you master it. I would use the 6.5 bore though and not look back. You could make it a light or heavy rifle and launch those long 140's with comfort.

I think you could punch about 4 of them with one shot! Just seems a little excessive in the recoil dept for a 100 lb goat!

I killed my first goat with a 260 and the last one with a 300 WBY. I guess it was plenty of gun

I've got a .340 wby and shot antelope with it too..It's the only animal that has walked away from a top o the heart hit.

On another note take what these experienced guys said to heart. Especially rost, jeff o and Mark d. They know what they're talking about.

I pulled the trigger too quickly..

If I were doing a dedicated long range elk rig I'd do a .338edge or .338am. The edge is more economical for most. I'd build it at 9-10 lbs and put a nightforce, us optics or an S&B and practice my arse off. Good luck

These are my dedicated long range elk rifles. They flat out work!!!!

270 Allen with a 195gr. wildcat bullet at 3100fps


.338 Ultra Maxx not to be confused with the .338 RUM


.338 Ultra Maxx in action with the 300 gr.SMK doing 2980fps at the muzzel. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RD29c6w40w

.338 Allen Mag. It shoots the 300 SMK at 3400fps


I took this buck last year with the 270 Allen at 892 yards.

Joecool...that 338 Allen is awesome! Big and chunky, perfect for glassing and shooting NOT a walk around rifle.

Way to go Joe!

Not much fun to pack at all, but I did pack it over a couple of these ridges. Do a lot of glassing.



Spot critters that look like these get all set up take the shot.



End results looks like this.



And his spot on the wall next to my black tail.

Thanks

I think I'll just start with my new .270 WSM as soon as I go pick it up and see what happens. After I get some time behind the trigger with this cartirdige and rifle, I may have to make some adjustments with a new platform but for now I'll run that and see how it goes.

In my opinion the .338 caliber is hard to beat, those big heavy bullets hit very hard way down yonder.

My personal cartridge of choice for elk is the .340 Weatherby

C Roy
Do you handload? Planning on a custom rifle or factory rifle?
You want to place as much energy on that elk as possible at those ranges.
A weatherby accumark in 300 weath, 30-378 weath, or 338-378 weath would get you where you want to be without spending a fortune. nightforce optics.
alot of good factory weatherby ammo to practice or superior ammunition if you dont handload. check out defensive edge or allen magnums website for custom stuff.

I do reload and I would probobaly go factory/semi-custom route. I have to pick up my .270 WSM from the smith the next time I am down that way. I am going to play with this cartridge and see how it does. I am looking at using 130 gr. TSX for a hunting load but will work up 130 gr. BT's to check the accuracy in this rifle before I spend a fortune in load development with the TSX's.

I have a farm I can practice at waaaay out there so I should get an eye opener on this long range stuff as my previous longest hunting shots have only been 2 over 400yds. An elk and a pronghorn. I took the elk with a .338 Win Mag using a 210 Partiton and the proghorn with my .257 Roberts using a 100 gr. X bullet.

Last year I was shooting at antelope with the 7mmMag and shooting at elk and deer with the 270. That was dumb.

In 2009, I plan on shooting the antelope and deer the 257RAI.
In 2009, I plan on shooting the elk with the 7mmMag.

Gee, John, misrepresent facts much?

If you want to continue to present your case here that the best tool for a novice for deer at 600+ is a �simple holdover reticle� even if the lines/dots are off, you aren�t likely to find much support here. Too many people here actually know what the hell they�re doing and see that is poor advice to give a novice.

What I �forcefully explained� was very simply that use of such a reticle at such ranges takes some effort to get everything matching up correctly; and while it certainly still can be used effectively even when things don�t line up correctly, using �Kentucky elevation� is most certainly not the best choice for a novice to try and use in the field.

Full text:

Clearly that didn�t say anything close to the:

You are now claiming. And even further to the �(or any reticle)� part, I said:


I must say John, I�m very disappointed with the dishonesty of your post. If you find it difficult to resist the urge to make things up when you find yourself on the wrong side of an argument, I suggest avoiding such arguments. One way to do that is to stick to writing about things that you know.

As somebody who believes all shots should be under 500 yds because:

And whose understanding of the only scopes that should be used for hunting is:

Maybe, just maybe, you aren�t the best person to be giving scope advice to Long Range Hunters who do what you think is not even �hunting,� and are served best by scopes that are �beyond your understanding�.

Much less, mock (dishonestly to boot) somebody who was trying to help out a new hunter with the best advice to help him be successful.

I don't even drink beer, and I'm tempted to take this one on. Why not just say "since I can't do it, no one can" and be done with it?

rubbish!

This is similar to my experience.

Several years ago I took Zach, Daughter #1�s erstwhile boyfriend, to the range. Both were in the Air Force and Zach had not shot in 4 years. We started out shooting clay pigeons on the 200 yard berm using my heavy barrel .22-250 and sporter weight .257 Roberts with +P loads. He decided it was �too easy�. (And it was.)

We backed off to 400 yards and again he thought it was pretty easy. Again we moved back, this time to the 500 yard line. This was a first for both of us. I tried two spotters with the .22-250 with Zach calling the hits, which I could also see in the scope. After making visual adjustments to Point Of Aim, I hit a pigeon on the second shot. I gave Zach instructions on where I had aimed. His first shot at a clay pigeon was close and his second was a hit. We then tried the .257 Roberts with nearly the same results � two spotters followed by a second round hit for me. Zach got a first round hit.

Time was running short but we decided to move back to the 600 yard range, another first for both of us. This time I broke out the .300 Win Mag. Two spotters, using the same Point Of Aim for each, followed by a visual adjustment on my part resulted in a hit on the steel gong. Verbal instructions as to where I had aimed gave Zach a first round hit. When we examined the freshly painted gong we found both bullets had impacted about 3-4� out at roughly the 10:30 position and within 2-1/2� of each other.

This experience was an eye opener for me and got me hooked on (for me) long range shooting. These days I spend more time shooting 400 and 500 yards than anything else, with clay pigeons on the 400 yard berm being the favorite. Since that day I have taken Daughter #2 and her fiance to the range a couple times and they, too have had excellent results on the 400-yard pigeons and 500 yard steel.

Adequate gear and a little guidance goes a long way.

I would say that if the emphasis is on elk I would look from the 30 magnums to all the .338s. That's not to say that the 7mm's don't include some capable cartridges as Dober notes. I just like a bigger hole and more bullet weight day-in and day-out... also in the elk and out.

Probably as important is where you'll hunt elk and how. Mountains, sage brush flats? Heavier or lighter? "Stand hunter" or up hill and dale, over, around, under, and through? There is much more to this than just the chambering; in fact that may be of less importance than some of these other considerations.

Joecool, impressive photos, but you lost some credibility wearing a Malibu shirt.

I love inexperienced shooter making hits at long ranges, builds confidents plus it's fun....their hooked!
I don't like anyone except the very experienced shooting at distances beyond about 250-300 on game (except prarie dogs)
Heck I limit myself when it's game targets on the other hand...............bang away!

joecool544

Nice!

If I may ask, what is a 338 Ultra Maxx? Based off the 338 RUM case?

JD338

I think it might be off the 300 RUM case, I could be wrong

30 caliber. I just like it.

The parent case is the 300 RUM or the 375 RUM. but based on the 270 Allen.

I just saw this LOL... All I can say is, it was free...

Great post Coyote Hunter, and let me add just one little thing:

"Adequate gear and a little guidance, and a couple sighters, goes a long way."

What seperates the men from the boys, is consistant first-shot hits without sighters.

Just to be clear, I am one of the "boys" in that regard, much of the time anyway.

Jeff -

You are right, but if you go back and re-read my post you will see that neither of us had ever fired at 500 or 600 yards , let alone with those rifles or loads . The guys that get "consistant first-shot hits" have at least SOME practice, usually lots of it. A couple sighters seems fair under the circumstances and the other guy got in the kill zone with no sighters of his own.

30 caliber - 300WM or 300WSM with 180gr Accubonds or TTSX's get my vote or 300RUM with 200gr AB's.

338

338 rum.

mine is shooting 250 gr. sierra game kings at a bit over 3,000 fps.
i also like my 300 rum, a 150 tsx at over 3600 fps.

i practice alot.
here's the range about 1 mile from my work.

farthest berm is 800 meters, with gongs at every 100...

1st choice-.338 2nd choice-.308 3rd choice-.284

Oh, hell yeah! Absolutely.

What I think you'll find as you keep doing it, is that WITH SIGHTERS, longer-range stuff is easier than some might think. WITHOUT SIGHTERS, it's harder than some might think. The conditions of the day are what get you. Or at least, they get me. When I start hitting first shot hits, without sighters, I'll know I'm getting somewhere... it's hard though, at least for this numbnuts.

My real life experience on long range elk is pretty slim compared to some on here,but then again I don't know what people consider to be "long range"anymore.That seems to have changed a bit and increased substantially over what I learned it to be.

500 used to be considered max with sporting weight rifles but today I watch some guys with rifles capable of being carried in rough country for elk,that do a good job clear to 600 yards,as far as our range goes;mostly these guys shoot turrets,and 300 RUM's with muzzle brakes.

I've killed only two large bulls at close to 500 yards,and have seen one other killed at that distance.These were shot with the 300 Win Mag(me) and the 7 Rem Mag by a little gal weighing maybe 100 pounds soaked in oil. This will drive some on here nuts but we had no rangefinders except the scope reticle and experience,and the scopes in each instance was a Leupold 4X.

In these three instances the episodes were,thankfully,over in short order.Near as I could tell there was not a lot of difference in how the elk reacted;they fell down and I was not left with the impression that either was lacking in any material way.BTW the bullets in all cases were Nosler Partitions.

I have no idea what it takes in rifles and cartridges to kill elk at 700-800 yards,but spoke with a guy on the phone a few times who is an experienced former Alaskan guide and lives on the Clearwater in Idaho,where I guess you have to shoot at great distance, or no elk;he is also a long range competitor,loves Nightforce scopes and told me his longest kill was around 800 yards;he pulled this off with a 28" barreled 300 RUM and a 165 Bitterroot,and Nightforce scope.

I guess if I were hell bent on shooting an elk at that distance I would lean toward an accurate 300 Weatherby or 300 Winchester (both IME more manageable than an RUM)with 26" barrel and top it with one of those new 2.5-10 Nightforce scopes with the capped turrets so it could not be spun until I wanted it to,and try to make the rig weigh 8.5 pounds or so.

I'm theorizing on this because I cannot regularly practice beyond 600,and would not try a shot at any distance for which I had not practiced pretty extensively.So for me,I would keep it at 500 or under,and desperately hope that he showed at 200-300

I've used the 300 magnums a good deal in a lot of places over the years,but really don't like the rifle weight or the recoil of the things that much anymore,and prefer a magnum capacity 7mm more these days, which can be built lighter,and kicks less. The 300 WSM or 7mmWSM also impress me as very good candidates for the same reasons.....I guess that makes me a "non-man", but in my experience the 30-378 and 300 RUM seperate the men from the boys when it comes to shooting them; ...generally the men go home.....