long range hunting scope magnification??

Posted by: Maxx

long range hunting scope magnification?? - 03/01/10 06:02 PM

I am looking for opinions on what you all are using for real life hunting rifles for mountain game like sheep and goats? I am using a Swarovski 4-12x50 AV with BR recticle, and am considering going to a 14x or 18x scope,

thoughts and opnions?
Posted by: hillbillyjake2506

Re: long range hunting scope magnification?? - 03/01/10 09:30 PM

i dnt think u need more than 12x
Posted by: xphunter

Re: long range hunting scope magnification?? - 03/02/10 06:15 AM

Originally Posted By: Maxx
I am looking for opinions on what you all are using for real life hunting rifles for mountain game like sheep and goats? I am using a Swarovski 4-12x50 AV with BR recticle, and am considering going to a 14x or 18x scope, thoughts and opinions?


What kind of distances will you use for this rifle?
Posted by: Maxx

Re: long range hunting scope magnification?? - 03/02/10 07:02 AM

The outer limit will be 600-700 yards.
Posted by: jwp475

Re: long range hunting scope magnification?? - 03/02/10 07:18 AM



You have plenty of optical power IHMO
Posted by: keith

Re: long range hunting scope magnification?? - 03/05/10 02:46 PM

My application is very different from yours. I hunt power lines for white tail deer. I use a 6-24 and 8-32, with a 4-16 being very minimal for my needs.

I am interested to see if one side of a buck's rack is broken off or if tines are broken off meaning that a large buck would be a NON shooter with a messed up rack.
Posted by: FAIR_CHASE

Re: long range hunting scope magnification?? - 03/05/10 04:10 PM

Military competition (308/7.62) shooters use 10x @ 1000yds. You already have a high quality piece of glass that is perfect for longrange big game. The only high magnification scope I use is a zeiss 6.5-20x50 that is used for shooting small stuff (i.e. PDs) at long distance. And specifically if you are interested in hunting the high mountain species, a "smaller" scope will be better in the long run.
Posted by: Ringman

Re: long range hunting scope magnification?? - 03/05/10 06:24 PM

Keith is stearing you right.

When I was comparing mid power scopes after sunset outside the store, the 4-12 Swarovski, set on its top magnification, showed me a twig about two blocks away. When I looked at the same twig through a 3 1/2-14X Leupold LPS, set on its highest magnification, I could easily make out that it was not a twig, but two twigs very close together.

When you want detail, more magnification is escential. Of course quality glass is required for that kind of observation.
Posted by: FAIR_CHASE

Re: long range hunting scope magnification?? - 03/05/10 09:29 PM

Originally Posted By: Ringman
Keith is stearing you right.

When I was comparing mid power scopes after sunset outside the store, the 4-12 Swarovski, set on its top magnification, showed me a twig about two blocks away. When I looked at the same twig through a 3 1/2-14X Leupold LPS, set on its highest magnification, I could easily make out that it was not a twig, but two twigs very close together.

When you want detail, more magnification is escential. Of course quality glass is required for that kind of observation.


I thought we were discussing actual and 'realworld' shooting/hunting situations smile
Posted by: scenarshooter

Re: long range hunting scope magnification?? - 03/05/10 09:39 PM

12X is enough for big game at 600-700 yards....600 divided by 12=50....do you think you could hit a sheep at 50 yards with iron sights?....just sayin'
Posted by: Maxx

Re: long range hunting scope magnification?? - 03/06/10 07:46 AM

great info and points , thanks again.
Posted by: oldman1942

Re: long range hunting scope magnification?? - 03/06/10 08:01 AM

http://www.sportoptics.com/nightforce-nxs-2-5-10x32-hv-reticle.aspx

light, top quality, mounts low and bullet proof.
Posted by: rosco1

Re: long range hunting scope magnification?? - 03/06/10 08:10 AM

Originally Posted By: oldman1942
http://www.sportoptics.com/nightforce-nxs-2-5-10x32-hv-reticle.aspx

light, top quality, mounts low and bullet proof.


go away
Posted by: keith

Re: long range hunting scope magnification?? - 03/06/10 08:14 AM

Brother and I have food plots set up at various distances, our longest is 550 yards which we use our Cusotm 7 STW's on.

12x is inadequate at 550.
Posted by: nathanial

Re: long range hunting scope magnification?? - 03/06/10 08:44 AM

Currently using a couple 16 power scopes and 22 power scopes and in the feild shots taken at 6-7 are taken on 10 to 12 power. After that I am good with 12-16 power to 1k. If detail is needed on an animal, imo, use a spotting scope.
Posted by: Eremicus

Re: long range hunting scope magnification?? - 03/06/10 09:31 AM

I'd be very reluctant to shoot at a goat or a sheep at 600-700 yds. For one, the wind currents in mountains make that kind of shot very iffy. If you miss, you have a running shot to try to make. If you wound him, and he can travel, I guarantee you he can show you some really nasty country.
For that type of hunting, most I know that do much of it like the very simple, very rugged fixed magnification scopes or the small variables. Large scopes have a lousy record for staying zeroed for instance, if they get bumped much. That happens regularly when hunting in typical sheep/goat habitat.
I suggest you save your long range abilities and equipment for things like deer and Pronghorn out on the flats. E
Posted by: Maxx

Re: long range hunting scope magnification?? - 03/06/10 11:32 AM

Originally Posted By: keith
Brother and I have food plots set up at various distances, our longest is 550 yards which we use our Cusotm 7 STW's on.

12x is inadequate at 550.




so what scope do you use?
Posted by: keith

Re: long range hunting scope magnification?? - 03/06/10 01:05 PM

Maxx, I use a 8-32 burris Black Diamond. I consider shot placement key, aiming for center of mass which is what you are doing with lower powered scopes can make for a really bad hunt.

The 4-16 bushnell 4200 is a great scope for the money, but for the longer ranges 500+ is seems inadequate, again I like to place my shot, not aiming for center of mass.

In my kind of hunting, you do not have the luxury of carring a spotting scope....no time.

Given the money, I would go Night force's upper end and never look back.
Posted by: MontanaMarine

Re: long range hunting scope magnification?? - 03/06/10 09:12 PM

I find that 10X is plenty to bisect a clay bird at 500 yards. That's about a 4.5" target.
Posted by: MontanaMarine

Re: long range hunting scope magnification?? - 03/06/10 09:19 PM

Here's some through-the-scope pics I snapped, for relative size reference.

16X, 340 yards,


16X, 700 yards,

Posted by: scenarshooter

Re: long range hunting scope magnification?? - 03/07/10 06:56 AM

Good stuff Shane!
Posted by: keith

Re: long range hunting scope magnification?? - 03/07/10 07:33 AM

Good post Shane.

There is a world of difference between 340 and 550 yards, then again between 550 and 700 yards which is an extreme shot for a sheep hunter.

If you are going to make a mistake on chosing power for a sheep or goat rifle, make the mistake of having too much power....you can always turn it down. The only further consideration is the wieght of the scope.
Posted by: toad

Re: long range hunting scope magnification?? - 03/08/10 04:40 AM

Originally Posted By: keith


12x is inadequate at 550.


IMO 10x is adequate to 1K. 6x is easily good for 550.

BUT wind in the mountains is the deal breaker.
Posted by: Colorado1135

Re: long range hunting scope magnification?? - 03/08/10 07:38 AM

I like a 6-24 on my long range rig, never hurts to have too much.
unless you count the time I had a 300+ lb bruin pop up over the hill at 15 yards.
Posted by: toad

Re: long range hunting scope magnification?? - 03/08/10 07:49 AM

nothing like having the entire FOV filled with bear hair to get the 'ol heart going...
Posted by: highridge1

Re: long range hunting scope magnification?? - 03/08/10 09:41 AM

I like 20x and more for 1000 yrds,I like 10x alot up to 400 yrds.Look at a deer a 1000 yrds with 10x and well...
Posted by: Colorado1135

Re: long range hunting scope magnification?? - 03/08/10 10:45 AM

you're telling me, first shot double lunged him, second took out the shoulder as he rolled and died at about 15'
yeah, he got the heart pumping smile

he aint so scary now

Posted by: Rman

Re: long range hunting scope magnification?? - 03/08/10 01:20 PM

You coulda taken your old dirty drawers off of him before you snapped the picture. laugh

R.
Posted by: toad

Re: long range hunting scope magnification?? - 03/08/10 04:43 PM

i have a blackie rug that squares 6'8" that i shot at spitting distance with a .243 when i was 16 years old.

so i can understand the dirty drawers on him blush
Posted by: kcTbear

Re: long range hunting scope magnification?? - 03/08/10 05:10 PM

He's colored chocolate for more reasons that one.
Posted by: WhistlepigPopper

Re: long range hunting scope magnification?? - 03/11/10 03:19 AM

I shoot groundhogs out to 900+ yards or so & I use 2 boosted Leupold scopes they are now powered at 18-40X50 & 20-50x56. For groundhogs it's key for me to have the magnification so I can see that the crosshairs are positioned where I want them.. Too much power??? NO.. If mirage gets in the way I can turn it down...I need to see what I'm shooting at & where the bullet is going! Please note that when I'm long range hunting like this I'm shooting on a table with BR equipment.

Posted by: butchlambert1

Re: long range hunting scope magnification?? - 03/11/10 03:34 PM

If I were serious about long range hunting or shooting, I would buy the best available.
http://marchscopes.com.au/tactical-10-60-x-52-scopes.html
Or the hunting scope for the people with good eyes.
http://marchscopes.com.au/hunting-25-25-x-42-scopes.html
They also have a 10X-80x with 34mm tube available. I understand these are the Rolls Royce, but I think glass is important. Are they good? Gary Costello from the UK won the World FClass with one last year and the 2007 and 2009 World BR Championships were won using them. Bear in mind the prices on the links are in Aussie dollars. Some of you guys are blessed with better eyes than this 67yr. old. I always try to buy the best quality scope that my pocket book will allow.
Butch
Posted by: Amax

Re: long range hunting scope magnification?? - 03/11/10 07:41 PM

That is a bear skull laying on the hide isnt it?
Posted by: yukonal

Re: long range hunting scope magnification?? - 03/11/10 08:05 PM

A deer/sheep is approx. 16-18" top to bottom. I would suggest putting a target that size out there, get dialed in on it, and after shooting at it, make a descision whether you need more power or not.

My 4.5-14 B&C Leupy is calibrated at 12X for the load I'm shooting, and an animal shaped target looks plenty big at 450 yards. I have not shot at 600.

I used a 3-D archery target for this pattern, and makes for fun practice.

Posted by: shrapnel

Re: long range hunting scope magnification?? - 03/11/10 08:34 PM

Quote:
Quote:


12x is inadequate at 550.


IMO 10x is adequate to 1K. 6x is easily good for 550.

BUT wind in the mountains is the deal breaker.


This debate is as old as 9mm VS 45 ACP. I will continue to argue that a few power on the lower end of the variable scale is not as critical as the high power at the upper end. The difference of a 2-7 scope and a 4-12 is huge on the upper end, not so much on the lower.

Go with the higher power, you won't be sorry. To try and shoot at 500 yards with a 6X scope to keep up with what you can do with a 16X scope is ridiculous. You aren't going to find long range shooters with 6X or even 10X scopes if they are serious about hitting their target.
Posted by: toad

Re: long range hunting scope magnification?? - 03/13/10 03:25 PM

so what can you shoot with 16X @ 500 that you could not shoot with 6X?

or is there a real need for micro groups in the field? i submit that a 1 moa rifle/shooter will handle schitt very nicely in the field (varmints excluded) and gear beyond that capability often compromises the system. weight, eye relief, FOV, physical size all can suffer as magnification goes up.

the weak link is more often the shooter than the equipment.
Posted by: jwp475

Re: long range hunting scope magnification?? - 03/13/10 03:39 PM

Originally Posted By: toad
so what can you shoot with 16X @ 500 that you could not shoot with 6X?
or is there a real need for micro groups in the field? i submit that a 1 moa rifle/shooter will handle schitt very nicely in the field (varmints excluded) and gear beyond that capability often compromises the system. weight, eye relief, FOV, physical size all can suffer as magnification goes up.

the weak link is more often the shooter than the equipment.



You serious?
Posted by: toad

Re: long range hunting scope magnification?? - 03/13/10 03:46 PM

i don't ask that because i haven't used both...

i ask that because i HAVE used both....

Posted by: jwp475

Re: long range hunting scope magnification?? - 03/13/10 03:54 PM

Originally Posted By: toad
i don't ask that because i haven't used both...

i ask that because i HAVE used both....




If you can't see the difference then I am amazed, because I dam sure can
Posted by: toad

Re: long range hunting scope magnification?? - 03/13/10 04:15 PM

i can see the difference. that's not the issue. but the difference doesn't necessarily carry over to the target in the form of smaller groups for me in the field.
Posted by: jwp475

Re: long range hunting scope magnification?? - 03/13/10 04:31 PM


A scope needs great clarity and resoulution and combined with more power that allows one to more readily define their aiming point more precisely in IMHO and experience
Seeing better is never a detriment to accuracy and can only help
Posted by: joecool544

Re: long range hunting scope magnification?? - 03/13/10 05:18 PM

Originally Posted By: toad
but the difference doesn't necessarily carry over to the target in the form of smaller groups for me in the field.



Why?
Posted by: toad

Re: long range hunting scope magnification?? - 03/13/10 05:47 PM

there is no well defined POA on an animal. i don't need to count hairs on an animal to shoot it high in the shoulder.

that's how it plays out for me anyway. for groups, the retical/POA relationship is more meaningful than sheer power. the Leupie TMR retical with the tiny gap at the intersection of the crosshairs and a dot that almost fills that gap gives me best groups even if i have to dial the power down to get that relationship right.
Posted by: joecool544

Re: long range hunting scope magnification?? - 03/13/10 06:12 PM

I never had a problem high magnification scopes, they let me see if I have any movement on my part that I need to correct before taking the shot. And they do help me on defined point of impact on animals, and they help me judge the angle of the animal as well.
Posted by: jwp475

Re: long range hunting scope magnification?? - 03/13/10 06:23 PM

Originally Posted By: joecool544
I never had a problem high magnification scopes, they let me see if I have any movement on my part that I need to correct before taking the shot. And they do help me on defined point of impact on animals, and they help me judge the angle of the animal as well.



+1
The more one can see is a win, win IMHO and experience
Posted by: Filbert

Re: long range hunting scope magnification?? - 03/17/10 06:57 AM

I have a buddy that uses a 6.5-20x Lupey on his 300 RUM. He has killed a lot of critters at long range. He had hold over dots installed for shooting out to 1000 yards - and he loves it!

He hunts open country... the 6.5x is a bit much for hunting in the thick stuff.
Posted by: HitnRun

Re: long range hunting scope magnification?? - 03/17/10 07:35 PM

Originally Posted By: toad
so what can you shoot with 16X @ 500 that you could not shoot with 6X?

or is there a real need for micro groups in the field? i submit that a 1 moa rifle/shooter will handle schitt very nicely in the field (varmints excluded) and gear beyond that capability often compromises the system. weight, eye relief, FOV, physical size all can suffer as magnification goes up.

the weak link is more often the shooter than the equipment.


You do have a point, although it is mostly on top of your head. 6X scopes and Studebaker pickups are all anyone needs. They can both deliver mediocre results, that 50 years ago was state of the art. Welcome to the 1950's.
Posted by: Rodngun

Re: long range hunting scope magnification?? - 03/18/10 12:15 PM

4.5x14x50 Leupold.
Posted by: toad

Re: long range hunting scope magnification?? - 03/18/10 02:51 PM


Originally Posted By: HitnRun
Originally Posted By: toad
so what can you shoot with 16X @ 500 that you could not shoot with 6X?

or is there a real need for micro groups in the field? i submit that a 1 moa rifle/shooter will handle schitt very nicely in the field (varmints excluded) and gear beyond that capability often compromises the system. weight, eye relief, FOV, physical size all can suffer as magnification goes up.

the weak link is more often the shooter than the equipment.


You do have a point, although it is mostly on top of your head. 6X scopes and Studebaker pickups are all anyone needs. They can both deliver mediocre results, that 50 years ago was state of the art. Welcome to the 1950's.


with a retarded post like yours, i can see why you would get defensive about the "weak link" reference...
Posted by: cobrad

Re: long range hunting scope magnification?? - 03/18/10 10:05 PM

If you want to shoot long range, get a long range scope. You will be much more accurate with it, and it doesn't have to weight enough to make any difference. I really, really like my Zeiss Conquest 4-14. I had an IOR 4-14 and used it to shoot groups of 3" and less at 650 yards. I traded that in for a 6-24 IOR because it is on a 22-250 varmint gun, and it is only better for those far away prairie dogs than the 14 was. The Zeiss was on a Kimber Montana .243 that I carried for a few years as my above timberline marmot rifle, and used last year to take a 9" goat. Now it lives on a Cooper .270, my elk and marmot rifle. I used the old 3-9 for a few decades, but the higher magnification is far superior for the shooting I do here in western CO.
Posted by: toad

Re: long range hunting scope magnification?? - 03/19/10 03:00 AM

really? i'm not plugging mid power because i haven't tried anything else.

i own or have owned in the last few years a NF NXS 5.5-22x 50, a USO SN3 3.2-17 "Canadian", and a NF NXS 3.5-15x 50.

i traded the 5.5-22 straight across for the 3.5-15 and would do it again. this scope (3.5-15) is currently my highest power scope, but it is on my long range precision rifle (NOT a hunting rifle) and shoot to 1 mile with it.

but my HUNTING rifles have nothing over 10x, and mostly 2.5-8 with a few 1.5-5s and a few more straight 6x. i have collected coyotes at 800+ yards with 10x.

SELECTING OPTICS IS ALL ABOUT BALANCING THE COMPROMISES. FOV, magnification, physical size, weight, elevation travel, exit pupil, eye relief and more all enter the equation.
Posted by: jwp475

Re: long range hunting scope magnification?? - 03/19/10 04:23 AM

Originally Posted By: Rodngun
4.5x14x50 Leupold.



And the tracking?


Originally Posted By: Rodngun
Well Jeff - truth be known - I have had just about every scope made by each Company.I'm not going to try to come on here as the new guy and bullshit you, with the exception of Leica and S&B - those are way way out of my range for optics..so I cant comment on either one of those two !! but I have had most all of them from the lonley Weaver to the poor pathetic Bushnells - so that being said - I love my Leupolds.When I do spend 800.00 on a scope - I buy what I consider the best,maybe growing up with nothing but Leupolds and then using them in the military - I may tend to lean towards them ..LOLL - Bottom line - every scope I have ever used at one time or another has had some tracking problem,other than that -I am just old and set in my ways.
I find that interesting on the scope though..neat story,and if you say its true -then I believe you.



Try a Nighforce S&B, Zeiss, etc and the tracking issue goes away
Posted by: JonA

Re: long range hunting scope magnification?? - 03/19/10 04:31 AM

Originally Posted By: toad
so what can you shoot with 16X @ 500 that you could not shoot with 6X?

How big are the targets you shoot? I can impress the people and pat myself on the back by doing really well out to 600 yds or so with a 4X ACOG on a nice big white gong or target with a huge bull. Smaller targets, those odd shaped and/or that blend in with the background are a bit more difficult.

Next, when you're strutting your stuff with the 6X on targets, what if there was more than one target? And they were moving, milling about, intermingling, a bit. And some of them had small horns mounted on them, some had medium, some had none but one had a bit bigger than the rest.

Would you be able to shoot the right one? Would you crawl away from the spotting scope (assuming you had time to set it up in the first place) muttering to yourself, "please don't move...please don't move...please don't move...phuck! Which one was he? Where did he go?

"Back to the spotting scope...there he is--Now STAY RIGHT THERE! OK, I'm on him in my scope, I think, but he's showing me his ass. Now he's walking, now others are passing in front of him, he walked into the middle of a group, now he's behind a bush, now 'a deer' is stepping out from behind the bush...phuck it! BAM! I guess when I walk up to him I'll find out if he was the right one or not...."

In my experience, that's a much more realistic hunting scenario that tests a scope's performance than being able to center a large target on the range where even iron sights work quite well.

Not being able to get a really, really, good look at the animal as you pull the trigger, be it at long range and/or low light conditions, is a serious disadvantage IMHO. But low powered scope (and less than good glass) fans will go to great lengths to delude themselves into thinking they aren't missing out on anything. "It's an aiming device. It just holds the crosshairs...."

They'll say that somehow trying to distinguish between an 8-point and 10-point DEER through your scope is somehow D - A - N -G - E - R - O - U - S!!!! Brain damage.

Next, they'll say they can count points better with their hand-held 8X binoculars than they can with a 25X S&B scope steadied with a bipod in the prone position.... Laughable ignorance.

On the other hand, some don't realize the disadvantage because they don't really care what they shoot. If they can nail center of mass of a tawny colored blob, their scope "worked for them." That's good enough. Some of us have higher standards.

Others, always have a guide sitting behind them with the bigeyes or spotting scope who will tell them what to shoot. Having somebody else there with better equipment telling you what to do does allow you to get by with lesser stuff and never know the difference.

So Toad, in which category do you fit? If you're hunting by yourself and you run into a situation like I described above, what do you do with a 5X scope? What do YOU do?

Shoot one of the tawny-colored blobs because you don't really care which one it is? Ask them nicely to stand there long enough for you to set up a spotting scope and ask them again not to move at all until you've shot the right one? Or do you always have somebody else there with better optics that will tell you what to do?

Let's hear it.
Posted by: toad

Re: long range hunting scope magnification?? - 03/19/10 04:53 AM

i've been the guide a hell of a lot more than i've been guided.

if you have schitt "milling around" at long range, you better not shoot no matter what you have for glass. TOF can exceed 1-1.5 seconds and on a target that may be moving that could easily turn a good shot into a gut shot. but hey, if that's how you wanna do it...

Posted by: jwp475

Re: long range hunting scope magnification?? - 03/19/10 05:14 AM



If the TOF is 1-1.5 secounds then you are a hell of a lot farther than 780 yards
Posted by: JonA

Re: long range hunting scope magnification?? - 03/19/10 11:08 AM

Yeah, and his post in question was only 500 yds. I guess judgments about situations he's never been in are better made by use of imagination while typing on a keyboard.

Way to avoid answering any of the questions though, Toad.
Posted by: dave7mm

Re: long range hunting scope magnification?? - 03/19/10 11:47 AM

Originally Posted By: JonA
Originally Posted By: toad
so what can you shoot with 16X @ 500 that you could not shoot with 6X?

How big are the targets you shoot? I can impress the people and pat myself on the back by doing really well out to 600 yds or so with a 4X ACOG on a nice big white gong or target with a huge bull. Smaller targets, those odd shaped and/or that blend in with the background are a bit more difficult.

Next, when you're strutting your stuff with the 6X on targets, what if there was more than one target? And they were moving, milling about, intermingling, a bit. And some of them had small horns mounted on them, some had medium, some had none but one had a bit bigger than the rest.

Would you be able to shoot the right one? Would you crawl away from the spotting scope (assuming you had time to set it up in the first place) muttering to yourself, "please don't move...please don't move...please don't move...phuck! Which one was he? Where did he go?

"Back to the spotting scope...there he is--Now STAY RIGHT THERE! OK, I'm on him in my scope, I think, but he's showing me his ass. Now he's walking, now others are passing in front of him, he walked into the middle of a group, now he's behind a bush, now 'a deer' is stepping out from behind the bush...phuck it! BAM! I guess when I walk up to him I'll find out if he was the right one or not...."

In my experience, that's a much more realistic hunting scenario that tests a scope's performance than being able to center a large target on the range where even iron sights work quite well.

Not being able to get a really, really, good look at the animal as you pull the trigger, be it at long range and/or low light conditions, is a serious disadvantage IMHO. But low powered scope (and less than good glass) fans will go to great lengths to delude themselves into thinking they aren't missing out on anything. "It's an aiming device. It just holds the crosshairs...."

They'll say that somehow trying to distinguish between an 8-point and 10-point DEER through your scope is somehow D - A - N -G - E - R - O - U - S!!!! Brain damage.

Next, they'll say they can count points better with their hand-held 8X binoculars than they can with a 25X S&B scope steadied with a bipod in the prone position.... Laughable ignorance.

On the other hand, some don't realize the disadvantage because they don't really care what they shoot. If they can nail center of mass of a tawny colored blob, their scope "worked for them." That's good enough. Some of us have higher standards.

Others, always have a guide sitting behind them with the bigeyes or spotting scope who will tell them what to shoot. Having somebody else there with better equipment telling you what to do does allow you to get by with lesser stuff and never know the difference.

So Toad, in which category do you fit? If you're hunting by yourself and you run into a situation like I described above, what do you do with a 5X scope? What do YOU do?

Shoot one of the tawny-colored blobs because you don't really care which one it is? Ask them nicely to stand there long enough for you to set up a spotting scope and ask them again not to move at all until you've shot the right one? Or do you always have somebody else there with better optics that will tell you what to do?

Let's hear it.


Dang Jon.
I miss you on the optics board.
Ill have to hang here more.
Thanks for posting
dave
Posted by: toad

Re: long range hunting scope magnification?? - 03/19/10 03:11 PM

Originally Posted By: jwp475


If the TOF is 1-1.5 secounds then you are a hell of a lot farther than 780 yards


.30-06 with 180 Scirroco II @ 2700 fps = TOF 1.053 sec @750

Originally Posted By: JonA
Yeah, and his post in question was only 500 yds. I guess judgments about situations he's never been in are better made by use of imagination while typing on a keyboard.

Way to avoid answering any of the questions though, Toad.


and at 500 yards with that load, lead on a mover goin' 3 mph will be almost 3 feet. so, yes, i won't shoot at schitt "milling around"

this schitt is only as hard as you make it. if someone says "i prefer higher power" that is a legit statement, but if someone says "10x is inadequate at 500 yards", well that isnt going to hold true for everybody.

oh, yea. i grew up on a river bottom ranch in deer and elk country, so don't think i haven't shot my deer and elk out of a herd at 500 yards and up...
Posted by: rost495

Re: long range hunting scope magnification?? - 03/19/10 04:08 PM

Originally Posted By: JonA
Originally Posted By: toad
so what can you shoot with 16X @ 500 that you could not shoot with 6X?

How big are the targets you shoot? I can impress the people and pat myself on the back by doing really well out to 600 yds or so with a 4X ACOG on a nice big white gong or target with a huge bull. Smaller targets, those odd shaped and/or that blend in with the background are a bit more difficult.

Next, when you're strutting your stuff with the 6X on targets, what if there was more than one target? And they were moving, milling about, intermingling, a bit. And some of them had small horns mounted on them, some had medium, some had none but one had a bit bigger than the rest.

Would you be able to shoot the right one? Would you crawl away from the spotting scope (assuming you had time to set it up in the first place) muttering to yourself, "please don't move...please don't move...please don't move...phuck! Which one was he? Where did he go?

"Back to the spotting scope...there he is--Now STAY RIGHT THERE! OK, I'm on him in my scope, I think, but he's showing me his ass. Now he's walking, now others are passing in front of him, he walked into the middle of a group, now he's behind a bush, now 'a deer' is stepping out from behind the bush...phuck it! BAM! I guess when I walk up to him I'll find out if he was the right one or not...."

In my experience, that's a much more realistic hunting scenario that tests a scope's performance than being able to center a large target on the range where even iron sights work quite well.

Not being able to get a really, really, good look at the animal as you pull the trigger, be it at long range and/or low light conditions, is a serious disadvantage IMHO. But low powered scope (and less than good glass) fans will go to great lengths to delude themselves into thinking they aren't missing out on anything. "It's an aiming device. It just holds the crosshairs...."

They'll say that somehow trying to distinguish between an 8-point and 10-point DEER through your scope is somehow D - A - N -G - E - R - O - U - S!!!! Brain damage.

Next, they'll say they can count points better with their hand-held 8X binoculars than they can with a 25X S&B scope steadied with a bipod in the prone position.... Laughable ignorance.

On the other hand, some don't realize the disadvantage because they don't really care what they shoot. If they can nail center of mass of a tawny colored blob, their scope "worked for them." That's good enough. Some of us have higher standards.

Others, always have a guide sitting behind them with the bigeyes or spotting scope who will tell them what to shoot. Having somebody else there with better equipment telling you what to do does allow you to get by with lesser stuff and never know the difference.

So Toad, in which category do you fit? If you're hunting by yourself and you run into a situation like I described above, what do you do with a 5X scope? What do YOU do?

Shoot one of the tawny-colored blobs because you don't really care which one it is? Ask them nicely to stand there long enough for you to set up a spotting scope and ask them again not to move at all until you've shot the right one? Or do you always have somebody else there with better optics that will tell you what to do?

Let's hear it.


Jon
Nice post! The scenario is one of the FEW reasons for more X IMHO. I wanted a 2.5 or 4 on my 50 beowulf as it was very fitting, but we have a spread rule here, and I set my variable on low and got confused on 2 eight points.... I worked it out by cranking it back up.
This year I had a gimme shot, could have been done with irons if the light would have been good but on 12x I just thought the buck didn't look right once I got crawled into position and settled down. Because he'd come in and I'd not seen him but he was NOT the right buck, that buck showed 70 yards to the left in an opening.... low power might have pissed me off again.

You can do a LOT of things on small targets with low X or irons... but target identity is easier with more X.

It really comes in handy too when doe hunting as we can double check for nubs while I'm trying to take the head off.
Posted by: JonA

Re: long range hunting scope magnification?? - 03/20/10 06:03 PM

Originally Posted By: dave7mm
Dang Jon.
I miss you on the optics board.
Ill have to hang here more.
Thanks for posting
dave

Thanks. You should try avoiding the optics board for a while. You'll find after staying away for a bit, you actually get smarter. Brain cells long dead, killed by repetitive focusing lessons and false eyebox to resolution relationships, will begin regenerating and your IQ will begin to return to its prior level. Trust me, there are more enjoyable ways of killing brain cells than enduring the same old rants and raves over there for the millionth time. cool
Posted by: JonA

Re: long range hunting scope magnification?? - 03/20/10 06:21 PM

Originally Posted By: rost495
Nice post! The scenario is one of the FEW reasons for more X IMHO.

Thanks. Your buck stories are just another couple good real world examples where you could have easily shot the wrong animal had you been stuck with a low powered scope. And they weren't even very far away, when similar scenarios happen at longer ranges it's even worse, and even higher power is a useful tool.

Good point on does. A while back a family member shot a "doe," or so he thought, only to find it had little spikes. He only had a doe tag so we were pretty freaked at the time until we found the regs and measured and found it was barely legal. That wasn't even very far either; the last doe tag I filled was at about 420 yds and I made damn sure--and I didn't happen to have my spotting scope in my back pocket.

And of course while the above are some of the biggest reasons, they aren't the only reasons high powered scopes can be helpful. I haven't even mentioned seeing mirage to help you read wind yet..... wink
Posted by: JonA

Re: long range hunting scope magnification?? - 03/20/10 07:03 PM

Originally Posted By: toad
.30-06 with 180 Scirroco II @ 2700 fps = TOF 1.053 sec @750

What happened to 500 yds? Also, most here use rounds that are quite a bit faster than that for LR. Maybe you should have used my 6.5 Grendel 140 load to skew things even farther.

Quote:
and at 500 yards with that load, lead on a mover goin' 3 mph will be almost 3 feet. so, yes, i won't shoot at schitt "milling around"

Nowhere did I encourage shooting a specific animal that's moving, when it's moving. As you say, "this schitt is only as hard as you make it" and you're making it very hard. There's a big difference between one animal standing there long enough for a shot and expecting an entire herd to remain motionless, frozen in time, with NONE of the animals moving around at all and mixing up.

Maybe the only herds you've seen of real live animals have been bedded? Because when they're not, they're ALWAYS "milling about." Even when just grazing in a fairly stationary area, much less "grazing trough" an area. Much, much less during the rut where in any decent sized group there are always a couple running around playing grab-ass.

Any one of those reasons could give you a problem if your only way of identifying the animal is "it's the third one from the left, second one down from the top...."

Not to mention the times that by the time you are in position and ready to shoot, you don't have a shot. Another animal standing in front of him, he's showing you his ass, he stepped behind a bush, he stepped into a small crevice along with three other deer and you need to wait for him to step out.... Maybe that sort of thing just never happens to you. You must have them trained well.

Quote:
if someone says "i prefer higher power" that is a legit statement, but if someone says "10x is inadequate at 500 yards", well that isnt going to hold true for everybody.


Nice attempt at role reversal. First, wasn't it 6X? You keep changing numbers in your backpedling. Second, I never said "inadequate." I said it could be a disadvantage in some situations and went on to describe them in detail and you seem to have no cogent answer for them.

You are the one who said you can't shoot anything with 16X that you can't with 6X at 500 yds. You are the one who has tried to say there is no advantage to the former. I think You are the one who would have been better served saying "I prefer low powered scopes" instead of trying to argue higher powered scopes offer no advantage. Maybe you don't want to utilize those advantages, and that's fine. But as you said, "isnt going to hold true for everybody."

If you'd just take a step back and objectively look at your arguments, really, you'd laugh as is usually the case when low powered scope fans go to great extremes, contorting reality in order to try and convince themselves they couldn't possibly be missing out on any function and everybody else has merely succumbed to advertising hype, that's all.

You're actually attempting to argue that being able to see what you're shooting very well, being able to make 100% sure you're shooting the right thing when you shoot it couldn't possibly be any sort of advantage. Ever.

Do you see how silly that is? Especially in the long range section. If you were preaching to the "anything over 200 yds is unethical" crowd, you'd have better luck making a case.

Quote:
oh, yea. i grew up on a river bottom ranch in deer and elk country, so don't think i haven't shot my deer and elk out of a herd at 500 yards and up...


Well, maybe now for the third time, you'll actually answer some questions. How do you do it? Do you have somebody following you around with a spotting scope at all times? Or do you not care what you shoot? Always have either sex tags, no point restrictions, and not really care? Simply identifying the species is correct means you're OK for the shot?

If that's the case, that's fine for you. It sure does make things easier. But keep in mind, "isnt going to hold true for everybody."
Posted by: rost495

Re: long range hunting scope magnification?? - 03/20/10 07:44 PM

Originally Posted By: JonA
Originally Posted By: rost495
Nice post! The scenario is one of the FEW reasons for more X IMHO.

Thanks. Your buck stories are just another couple good real world examples where you could have easily shot the wrong animal had you been stuck with a low powered scope. And they weren't even very far away, when similar scenarios happen at longer ranges it's even worse, and even higher power is a useful tool.

Good point on does. A while back a family member shot a "doe," or so he thought, only to find it had little spikes. He only had a doe tag so we were pretty freaked at the time until we found the regs and measured and found it was barely legal. That wasn't even very far either; the last doe tag I filled was at about 420 yds and I made damn sure--and I didn't happen to have my spotting scope in my back pocket.

And of course while the above are some of the biggest reasons, they aren't the only reasons high powered scopes can be helpful. I haven't even mentioned seeing mirage to help you read wind yet..... wink


Ya know your doe story brought to mind... I was going to take a 525ish yard shot in Jan... but there was only one deer out, and 2 had gone that way earlier, a doe and a nubby.... the one out looked REALLY big in the 14x scope... but you know how that goes, if there is nothing to compare it against.... I will never know for sure, as the single dropped into the creek... but I"m glad I didn't shoot, but had a stronger scope maybe I could have.... I was silently wishing for my Kowa though...
Posted by: toad

Re: long range hunting scope magnification?? - 03/21/10 03:28 AM

Originally Posted By: JonA
I haven't even mentioned seeing mirage to help you read wind yet..... wink


reading mirage with the rifle scope will not provide very much useful information. here's why. the mirage you are reading is showing what the wind AT OR NEAR THE TARGET is doing, and the wind at or near the target will not have as much affect on the bullet as the wind closer to you. to read mirage and get useful results, you will need your spotter. set it up and focus it at different distances between you and the target and read the mirage at those distances. the wind you feel on your face is going to have the most affect, but the wind at the different zones between you and the target will have much more affect than the wind at the target.

Originally Posted By: JonA


Well, maybe now for the third time, you'll actually answer some questions. How do you do it? Do you have somebody following you around with a spotting scope at all times?


i do it just like everybody else does it. i pick a feature that will be visible with the rifle scope and reference the animal from that feature. transition to the rifle scope and pick up that animal using the visible feature you noted earlier. a decent buck/bull is usually hard to mistake. i shoot dinks and does closer to the truck.

if you wanna keep up twisting my posts around ("so what can you shoot with 16X @ 500 that you could not shoot with 6X?" is a question, not a statement, BTW) we should do the PM thing instead of bogging down the thread. you are really not bringing anything new to the table here that we all haven't looked at before. selecting optics is all about balancing the compromises in your favor. i've been down the higher power road and it diddn't do much for me, so i've backed off the power and don't look back. i prefer to set up my rifle for general hunting with the addition of an elevation knob instead of hunting with a dedicated long range rig. i've been down that road also, and diddn't like it. i shoot all of my hunting rifles at long range year 'round so i know what they'll do. even the lowly '06 LOL

Originally Posted By: JonA


If you'd just take a step back and objectively look at your arguments, really, you'd laugh as is usually the case when low powered scope fans go to great extremes, contorting reality in order to try and convince themselves they couldn't possibly be missing out on any function and everybody else has merely succumbed to advertising hype, that's all.


"missing out"? no, i don't think that's it.








Posted by: Pete E

Re: long range hunting scope magnification?? - 03/21/10 07:12 AM

For many years with the British and American Military used 10x42mm scopes for "sniping"...Before that we Brits used a 6x42mm and were expected to be evective against man-size targets out to 600m and capable of harassing fire out to 800m.

So yes, I have no doubt 6x can work for medium to long range. But it this day and age, why handicap yourself? It used to be that variable power scopes were less reliable or that the POI changed as you altered the magnification, but on decent quality scopes, thats not been the case for years.

A scope in the 3-9x42mm to say 4-16x50mm range is hardly overly specialised, and regardless of what the detractors say here, its always a big help to see the target and its immediate surroundings clearly. True a 4-16x50 S&B PM11 is going to weigh much more than a 6x42mm M8 Leupold, but I am more than happy to accept the weight penalty, and when I am not, I'd still prefer a 2.5-10x42mm Zeiss or a 3-12x42mm S&B...

If someone prefers to stick to their 6x42mm M8 and gets good results, more power to them. Its their their wage check so they get to spend it as the wish....
Posted by: rost495

Re: long range hunting scope magnification?? - 03/21/10 08:08 AM

Toad, I don't know about your scopes, but mine are capable of focusing just like a spotting scope.

As to the argument about wind more valuable here or at the target, thats argued a long time and I totally agree with you about the wind at the shooter being more valuable.

I do have an issue with folks using longer shots just because the animal is larger... to me if you won't shoot a doe at that range, due to fear of wounding/missing, you have no business firing at that range period. Of course I know what you are saying, you don't want to work as hard at packing meat vs antlers. Thats cool, though its all the same to me.
Posted by: boatanchor

Re: long range hunting scope magnification?? - 03/21/10 08:52 AM

Originally Posted By: toad
scope (3.5-15) is currently my highest power scope, but it is on my long range precision rifle (NOT a hunting rifle) and shoot to 1 mile with it.



I have read this entire thread and dont agree with much or any of what you have said but this quote cracks me up. what kind of "long range precision rifle" do you have that you "shoot to 1 mile with". and if you have such a rifle why would you handicap it by not having a long range precision scope, someone with far less of a rifle could shoot more precise groups than you just by having a proper scope for the application.
B
Posted by: boatanchor

Re: long range hunting scope magnification?? - 03/21/10 09:31 AM

Originally Posted By: Eremicus
I'd be very reluctant to shoot at a goat or a sheep at 600-700 yds.
I suggest you save your long range abilities and equipment for things like deer and Pronghorn out on the flats. E


I once again have to disagree with E (as most of the fire does). That is why you practice with your long range abilities and equipment is for the occasion that this might be the only shot you get.
I drew a Desert Bighorn tag in 2007 in the worst unit in Utah (but had the best odd's), I spent hundred's and hundred's of hours over several months scouting and hunting and three days before the end of the hunt I had my only chance to take my once-in-a-LIFETIME Ram at 666yds in some of the nastiest terrain on the planet.
Was glad that I had practiced with and used the correct equipment for the task.

btw I was using a 6.5x20 Leupy set on 20x
B
Posted by: toad

Re: long range hunting scope magnification?? - 03/21/10 01:58 PM

Rost, yes, my scopes will focus, but good scopes seem to be desgned with a depth of focus so deep that i'm basically looking at the same plane of mirage from about 300 yards out, where the spotting scope with it's shallow depth of focus lets me read various zones. i have to adjust the scope by eliminating parallax, because i can not tell by the image. this includes the USO and NXS 5.5-22 that i had. YMMV.

i won't shoot at big stuff farther than i would a smaller animal. i totally agree with you. i used to shoot at coyotes farther than i should, but one day i had to track one three miles through knee deep show and then dispatch it with a .22. the does and dinks remark was because i can get them easier right out at the hay yard, and drive right to them.

and i guess i diddn't know about the near wind vs. far wind debate. it's explained pretty well in just about any ballistics book i've seen.

boatanchor, if you read the entire thread like you say and still don't know what i shoot, i can't really help ya.
Posted by: jwp475

Re: long range hunting scope magnification?? - 03/21/10 02:02 PM



So you donot agree that mirage is a good indicator of wind? If not there are a ot of top long range shooters/hunters in the world that would disagree
Posted by: toad

Re: long range hunting scope magnification?? - 03/21/10 02:07 PM

mirage IS a good indicator of wind.

BUT where and what direction the wind occours has a bearing on it's affect on the bullet. thus the discussion about reading mirage at various ranges along the bullet's path.
Posted by: jwp475

Re: long range hunting scope magnification?? - 03/21/10 02:51 PM

Originally Posted By: toad
mirage IS a good indicator of wind.

BUT where and what direction the wind occours has a bearing on it's affect on the bullet. thus the discussion about reading mirage at various ranges along the bullet's path.



So you do not believe this can be done accurate?
Posted by: Pete E

Re: long range hunting scope magnification?? - 03/21/10 03:30 PM

I'm not Toad, but I think what he's saying is that when it comes to longrange shooting, a 15mph cross wind near the muzzle is going to have a bigger effect on the POI than a 15mph cross wind at the target....So it there for obviously helps to be able to read mirage at various ranges, not just at the target...

Can't say I've ever tried to read mirage at different ranges with my scope, as I usually use a spotter for that task. I'm not saying thats "right" just how I happen to do things..
Posted by: JonA

Re: long range hunting scope magnification?? - 03/21/10 03:31 PM

Originally Posted By: toad
reading mirage with the rifle scope will not provide very much useful information. here's why. the mirage you are reading is showing what the wind AT OR NEAR THE TARGET is doing, and the wind at or near the target will not have as much affect on the bullet as the wind closer to you.

I don't know what you're doing wrong, but like Rost, all my high power side focus scopes work just like a spotting scope. As finely as they do? Of course not, but when there is usable mirage if you can't get a good reading at the target, 2/3 and 1/3 of the way they you're doing something wrong. That gives you a TON of additional information with which to make the shot. Maybe you have a habit of seeing mirage and dialing down the power (which increase the depth of field)? Try not doing that.

Of course the wind where you are usually has the biggest influence. You don't need a spotting scope to measure that; that's what wind meters are for. But if that's all the information you have because your 6X scope can't see mirage at all, you could be very, very wrong on your wind call depending upon the terrain.
Quote:
i do it just like everybody else does it.

As with most things in life, when I expect better and hold myself to higher standards than average, doing what "everybody else" does is usually less than adequate.
Quote:
i pick a feature that will be visible with the rifle scope and reference the animal from that feature. transition to the rifle scope and pick up that animal using the visible feature you noted earlier.

Transition from what? A spotting scope on a tripod? A set of bigeyes on a tripod? How long did it take you to set those up?
Quote:
"missing out"? no, i don't think that's it.

I note you're missing out on a specific capability sometimes useful when hunting, so you post a pic of a rifle you never hunt with. Huh?

That time it took you to set up the spotter or bigeyes, mentioned above. That's what you've missed out on. Too many animals I've collected did not allow such a luxury.
Posted by: jwp475

Re: long range hunting scope magnification?? - 03/21/10 04:13 PM



The top of the line optics in the very best of rifle scopes are extremely close to top quality spooters in resolution and depth of perception IME. The S&B PMll series is the ones that I have that impress me the most in this department. The Premeir Heritage I hear is in the same optical league as the S&B's and of course the top end Zeiss
Posted by: boatanchor

Re: long range hunting scope magnification?? - 03/22/10 05:59 AM

Originally Posted By: toad




.30-06 with 180 Scirroco II @ 2700 fps


This with a 15x scope is what you shoot at 1 mile with ????? would love to see you post a pic of that target (if your camera has a really wide angle lens).
B
Posted by: toad

Re: long range hunting scope magnification?? - 03/22/10 07:27 AM

Pete E nailed it as i see it.

jwp, IMO, rifle scopes are DESIGNED with a very deep depth of focus, (to make a quick 75 yard shot possible if the scope is adjusted for 350 ect...) and that feature detracts from their ability to read mirage at specific ranges.

boatanchor, the '06 is one of my HUNTING rifles (topic of the thread). top two pictures are .264 WMs, pictured for the benefit of jon, who seemed to think i plug lower power because i can't afford or havent tried higher power. BTW, feel free to bring one of your "much lesser rifles" over and learn me how to do this LR thing...

i'd love to stay and banter, but today is the day to wring out a "new" .375 AI and a freshly bedded .350 RM
Posted by: jwp475

Re: long range hunting scope magnification?? - 03/22/10 10:59 AM



I don't have the problems with depth of perception with my top end scopes that you describe. In fact my 5X25 PMll S&B is the equal of my Swarovski 20X60X80 Spotter in resolution and depth of perception. It is the most awsome rifle scope that I have ever looked through. There may well be others that are it's equall I don't know, but IMHO if one wants to get the most out of long range hunting/shooting then the better the equipment the better the experience IMHO and exrience. With practice and a full understanding of what one is trying to accomplice it is not that difficult IMHO and opinion
Posted by: JonA

Re: long range hunting scope magnification?? - 03/22/10 11:39 AM

Originally Posted By: toad
jwp, IMO, rifle scopes are DESIGNED with a very deep depth of focus, (to make a quick 75 yard shot possible if the scope is adjusted for 350 ect...) and that feature detracts from their ability to read mirage at specific ranges.

Maybe if you actually tried that, you'd find whether or not they're "designed" for it, most high powered sidefocus scopes DO NOT have that deep a depth of focus at max power. At low power yes, on maximum power with the parallax set to 350 the target looks like crap at 75.

Quote:
jon, who seemed to think i plug lower power because i can't afford or havent tried higher power.

When in an argument, you find yourself making stuff up, it usually means you have some rethinking to do on your position.

I never said or even implied such a thing.
Posted by: boatanchor

Re: long range hunting scope magnification?? - 03/22/10 06:29 PM

Originally Posted By: toad


boatanchor BTW, feel free to bring one of your "much lesser rifles" over and learn me how to do this LR thing...



I would LOVE to, anytime after April 9th I could come to Montana or you can come to Utah.
B
Posted by: toad

Re: long range hunting scope magnification?? - 03/23/10 04:26 AM

let me know when you are on the road...
Posted by: DonKnows

Re: long range hunting scope magnification?? - 03/28/10 08:30 AM

Originally Posted By: JonA
Originally Posted By: toad
so what can you shoot with 16X @ 500 that you could not shoot with 6X?

How big are the targets you shoot? I can impress the people and pat myself on the back by doing really well out to 600 yds or so with a 4X ACOG on a nice big white gong or target with a huge bull. Smaller targets, those odd shaped and/or that blend in with the background are a bit more difficult.

Next, when you're strutting your stuff with the 6X on targets, what if there was more than one target? And they were moving, milling about, intermingling, a bit. And some of them had small horns mounted on them, some had medium, some had none but one had a bit bigger than the rest.

Would you be able to shoot the right one? Would you crawl away from the spotting scope (assuming you had time to set it up in the first place) muttering to yourself, "please don't move...please don't move...please don't move...phuck! Which one was he? Where did he go?

"Back to the spotting scope...there he is--Now STAY RIGHT THERE! OK, I'm on him in my scope, I think, but he's showing me his ass. Now he's walking, now others are passing in front of him, he walked into the middle of a group, now he's behind a bush, now 'a deer' is stepping out from behind the bush...phuck it! BAM! I guess when I walk up to him I'll find out if he was the right one or not...."

In my experience, that's a much more realistic hunting scenario that tests a scope's performance than being able to center a large target on the range where even iron sights work quite well.

Not being able to get a really, really, good look at the animal as you pull the trigger, be it at long range and/or low light conditions, is a serious disadvantage IMHO. But low powered scope (and less than good glass) fans will go to great lengths to delude themselves into thinking they aren't missing out on anything. "It's an aiming device. It just holds the crosshairs...."

They'll say that somehow trying to distinguish between an 8-point and 10-point DEER through your scope is somehow D - A - N -G - E - R - O - U - S!!!! Brain damage.

Next, they'll say they can count points better with their hand-held 8X binoculars than they can with a 25X S&B scope steadied with a bipod in the prone position.... Laughable ignorance.

On the other hand, some don't realize the disadvantage because they don't really care what they shoot. If they can nail center of mass of a tawny colored blob, their scope "worked for them." That's good enough. Some of us have higher standards.

Others, always have a guide sitting behind them with the bigeyes or spotting scope who will tell them what to shoot. Having somebody else there with better equipment telling you what to do does allow you to get by with lesser stuff and never know the difference.

So Toad, in which category do you fit? If you're hunting by yourself and you run into a situation like I described above, what do you do with a 5X scope? What do YOU do?

Shoot one of the tawny-colored blobs because you don't really care which one it is? Ask them nicely to stand there long enough for you to set up a spotting scope and ask them again not to move at all until you've shot the right one? Or do you always have somebody else there with better optics that will tell you what to do?

Let's hear it.


This is one of the best, thought out posts I have read in years. Thank you for this post.

Don smile