Say that I live in Montana and do all my shooting here. (This would limit elevation changes to between 3000 feet and 5000 feet)
Given an optimum cartridge/bullet combination in a very accurate rifle and a good scope, a hand held wind gauge, good drop tables and an excellent scope, how far could 90% first hits on an 8" diameter target be expected before you would start having to use a computer program for barometric pressure, altitude, etc?
Another assumption is that no shooting would be done with winds in excess of ten MPH. Also, range finder would, of course be used.
Trying to take the shooter out of the equation here to see at what range the need for a ballistics program/portable computer kicks in.

Thanks

Fred

This is like posting and asking if your rifle is zeroed. We can answer questions but nobody is gonna schoolmarm ya.

Buy a copy of EXBAL, start studying it, and start shootin'.

TAK, I love your answer. Succint and verbose at the same time.

Point taken! :0

Don't get me wrong. I am happy to discuss this subject, but let's be more specific. Are we talking crew-served weapons or BB guns? Also, what kind of wind-reading skills do you possess? Etc...

FTR
Read some of your posts on other threads- Don't think I want a conversation with you-

I didn't mean to sound like a wise-acre, but really, EXBAL should be purchase #1 if you are looking at shooting long. Best 70 bucks you'll ever spend. You've gotta buy it or something similar to make your own DOPE sheets any way.

I don't have a field computer.

I run drop sheets on Quicktarget, and sometimes JBM (JBM is a free online application)

http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmtraj-5.1.cgi

I typically run a table using 4500' el, 50F temp, and 25.50 Hg pressure, as that is about average around here.

I run a table at 10 yard intervals out to a mile or so. It takes a couple sheets of paper, but the data I need is there.

I also will put a simpler drop chart on the rifle stock, 20 yd increments, out to 700 yards or so for quick reference.

With these aids, it seems fairly easy to consistently hit 8" targets in field conditions out to 600 yards or so, and i'm being conservative. I'm shooting 308 and 30-06, mostly with a 208gr AMax at 2600-2750 fps depending on which rifle.

So with all that said, I'll throw 600 yards out as a reasonable range to make consistent hits on 8" targets, under good conditions.

The thing is, there are ALWAYS variables. Wind, temp, pressure, visibility, bullets, chamberings.

At the end of the day, have a reasonable chambering/bullet, a laser rangefinder, elevation turret, and practice, practice, practice.

I think you will find 600 yards becomes a very confident distance, and well beyond that distance, depending on your equipment, and personal skills/passion for it.

When you first get out to some long range targets you will most likely find that your drop sheet was maybe close, but not precisely on target.

This is where you refine your data.

Record the actual corrections needed, to hit accurately. Try to get some actual data points at at least a midrange distance, and a long range distance. I like to test at around 300, 600, 900, 1200 for actual fired data.

Then, when I get back home to the computer, I go into my ballistic program and tweak MV, and/or BC until the calcs line up well with my actual fired data. Once this is done, you will typically have good accurate correction data at any intermediate distances between your recorded data points.

Then get out there and shoot often at various distances and wind conditions. you may need to refine your data again, but you will be gaining experience with the wind and shooting from field expedient positions.

Shane
Thanks a lot- Lotta good stuff there. I have a 243 that will hold 3/4 MOA out to 300 Yards which is as far as I have grouped it, and want to toy with that a bit. I think I am going to order a Kestral. I Have at least one place in mind where I can shoot at some longer ranges in solitude and I think I might see what I can do. No real need to, but all this long range talk is rubbing off on me.

Fred

If you ever want to meet up and burn some powder let me know. From your ZIP Code, looks like we are only 30-35 miles apart.

Access to some of my favorite spots is a little dicey right now, but in a month or two when things thaw/dry a bit, should be good to go.

Also, the range at Townsend Rod & Gun Club goes out to 1000 yards. A friend of mine hosts monthly LR shoots there starting in April, through Sept. It's free, no memebership needed. Just show up and shoot. It's a good time, casual, informal, safe.

When I see dates for upcoming Townsend LR shoots, I'll post them here.

The long range shoots at Townsend will be same as last year.

Second Saturday of the month, April through August.

The .243 is a nice caliber for longish ranges as there is a wide assortment of fine 6mm bullets that you can use. The choice will be limited by the twist rate of your rifle.

I agree with MM about the 600 yard thing, it was the distance I was going to specify as long as you can hold the waterline for that distance. You notice that MM uses 208Amaxes in his .308 and 30-06; he is trading muzzle velocity for BC and that's critical at longer distances. This will become important for your .243 also since there is quite a range of BC values depending on the bullet selected. BC increases with weight and length (provided the profile is there also.) A higher BC value will help you buck the wind and can somewhat make up for bad wind calls as distances increase.

This is where the twist of your barrel comes into play and if you have a 1:7 or 1:8 twist in the .243 you can use the higher BC bullets. If the twist is slower than that, it may create a problem for you. Just something to keep in mind.

I have a Kestrel 2500 meter and it does a good job telling you the conditions at your location. You still have to figure out what's happening downrange.

The free Berger program from there web sight has worked well enough for me to make first round hits all the way out to 1000 yards.
The very first time I used it.I used it on a steel crow at 850 yards.Just something about a first round hit from a cold clean barrel...
I used the G7 data from Mr.Litz book.
My 30 year old Ohler model 33 is pretty accurate.
Hint.... get a good chrono.

dave

Montana Marine, I'm looking to go to some of the long range shoots this year just so I can learn more about it and have the opportunity to meet some good people. I'm from northwest Montana so perhaps I'll end up running into you at one of the shoots this year.

MontanaMarine
I just moved and now live about 4 miles east of Bob's market at the Lincoln Road exit. I'd enjoy getting together to shoot.
Fred

Shod, take a look at Marbut's shoot at Potomac also. You can access his stuff through the Mt shooting sports foundation website. Gives you a good look at it and explains the shoot. Great fun and lots of learning. Also, about 100 miles closer for you.
The townsend range is a good place to shoot at long range. The only drawback is no steel between 550 and 1014. There may still be some clay pigeons on the bank out at 550 tho. Always fun to try at them.

Shod, We'll likely meet up somewhere along the line. I'll be hitting some of the Townsend shoots, and plan on getting out to Glasgow for ScenarShooter's event in April.

Royce,

Good chatting with you today.

Shane
Likewise- Trying to get some rifles sorted out to shoot next week.

Fred

Royce, did you tell me your 223 is a Tikka? Do you know if it's the 1/8 twist bbl?

If so, I've got some 77gr Noslers loaded up for my AR15s, and I'll bring some of that ammo along to see how it does in your 223.

Shane
My 223 is a Ruger Hawkeye with a 9 twist- I am sitting here contemplating taking the damn thing someplace and trading it.- I bought it wanting a gun that would shoot into 1 inch or less with standard bullets. The purpose was to use it for a LOT of practice from field positions on both varmints and plinking.
I foolishly sold my Tikka 223 last year because I thought my 204 was going to replace it, but have since decided I want both.
I bought a box of Hornady 68 BTHP, but not sure if it makes sense to shoot those out of a 223 when I have a 243 that will shoot cheaper bullets at a flatter trajectory.

Fred

OK, well I'll still bring alomng some 77s. They shoot fairly well from my 1/9 AR with a 16" bbl. Who knows, they may fly in the Ruger.

But, I hear you on wanting to find happiness with factory fodder. I've only had about 1.5-2.0 moa accuracy from the 55gr milsurp stuff, but that was in the ARs.

The Hornady 68gr BTHP should be a good baseline test for sure.

Royce u oughtta' play around some with 22's at distance. We were screwing around with my MR Picuda out to 300 yds. just yesterday and it required this PFI 22 Long Rifle Rapid Reticle 21 MOA 200-yd. line with about 18 more MOA to hit 300. Hit a 6" snow patch with it 1 out of 6 shots using 200-yd. 10 mph windage for reference with Fed. VP Wal-mart bulk. Sure was fun though, and the kids and wives really love it. Great for LR practice/trainers--
300 yds.-


3-9x PFI 22 Long Rifle Rapid Reticle--