If you were building a dedicated long range rig to complement your 243AI, which would you choose and why?

My first question would be to ascertain your intended use.

Paper? Game?

David_Walter,

I would go with the big seven.

game up to Elk

280 ai

Dw, my experience on 6.5's on game is not on your list, but pushes a 142smk at 2900....so it can be used to compare. I have fired 4 bullets at 3 elk and one deer at ranges between 650 and 800yds. Every single one bang flopped. The elk I killed this year, a healthy spike bull was the only one to stop the bullet, which broke both scapula and was found under the hide. The results have prompted me to look to the 260 as its velocities are right in the hunt and can be relied on in a short action.

The super 7s will best the 140 class 6.5's but not by a whole lot and both are super for sd. I don't think you can go wrong either route.

I also agree on the 280AI.
Plenty of brass, no belt, great bullet selection than 6.5s, easy to load, can use 280 ammo if needed, lower recoil and blast, no need for a mag. action, easier on bbl than 6.5x284 or 264Win.,uses less powder than 7RM
I have 6.5x284, 7RM, and 280AI, and use the AI the most, but just my preference.
Talk to Kenny Jerrett, he picks the 280AI over the 7RM.

Coach

how about a 6.5-06 AI?

Ditto.

Make that 3.

A 162 a-max over 3000fps should be pretty healthy. And they are <$30/100...

And one more.

to 'compliment' the 243, I would probably jump to 7. My choice in 7 would be the 7x300 WSM or 7LRM (Gunwerks). 7MM Rem mag would then fall after those two.

I wouldn't pick any of those. Dedicated long range, for hunting, I'd go with 7mm STW or .300 RUM. "Why" is ... just because. I have a custom .264. I like it but I wouldn't call it an ideal elk rifle. I've had a couple 7mm mags and one STW. The STW was a 700 Sendero. If there's a more perfect balance of weight (still portable), reach, but manageable recoil without having to go to a brake, I haven't seen it. .300 RUM ... well, mr jackrabbit doesn't like 125 grain ballistic tips at 3850-3900.

This....because I have it.....

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/6417865/This_Count#Post6417865

Why piss around with a pea shooter.......

knock knock...

You're close. Not sure if you need the AI version.

6.5's and an 8 twist tend to distort VLD type bullets above 3000 fps.

Forgot to ask. What is your version of long range.

That'll help my offering of an opinion a bit more.

10-4.

Also do you have an action or is this from scratch?

from scratch

7 rem mag

I've had 2, 6.5-06's built. One for targets/comp and one for hunting.
One built on a Surgeon XL action. One on a Remmy 700. They both shoot sub .5 moa to 500 yards. I plan to use the hunting one for Deer and Elk. My limit on Elk will be 600 ish. The both drive the 139's and 140's at just a hair shy of 3000 fps.

I've had many many rifles in many calibers over the years. In my older age I've realized I hate heavy recoil and I don't really like burning a ton of powder to reach something way out there every time I trip the trigger. Mostly cause I like to shoot the rifles I have, often.

Yep I could have a cartridge with more horse power. But to accomplish what I need it really isn't needed.

In the end it is about accuracy, bullet placement and impact velocity.

If you aren't crazy about the underrated, under appreciated, near perfect, 6.5-06. Look at the 7 wizzum. The 7 RM is nice but over rated in my opinion. Plus there's the belted thing.

The 264 takes a beating on so many fronts it's almost pathetic..most common misconception is it's a "barrel burner"..BS no more so than many other high velocity hitters.Launching 100 grainers at 3400-3500 will take it's toll in a hurry out of anything but personally I haven't met or shot with anyone over the years where that's their go to bullet weight.I built mine around the 140gr pill where it really shines and have put thousands of rounds out with still MOA capability but where common sense prevails bore life will be extended you can put that in the bank!

That's it in a nutshell.......

Of the three, my recommendation, based on 11 years of 1K BR, where accuracy comes first, would be the 6.5-284. I only know of a couple of guys that runs 6.5-06's or 280AI's, one quite successful with a 6.5x55AI, and nobody with a 264 or 7 Mag, but the 6.5-284 has been an over whelming favorite, by far. It's a good compromise of performance and barrel life, with an outstanding accuracy background.

I getting an 8 twist Bartlein chambered in it for a new LR hammer this week......

aalf is right.

At long range, accuracy is king and it's hard to beat the 6.5-284. Faster rounds may buck the wind better, but with ranging reticles and turrets, the 6.5-284 is a excellent long range round. I like 140's in my 8.5 twist Kreiger, using SST's and VLD's. Mine will print 4 1/2" at 600 from a bench and my turret is calibrated for my best Vv N165 load.

I also shoot a Brux barreled 7RM, but don't have (or need) a .264WM.

To answer the OP, I'd go with the 6.5-284.

IMHO,

DF

David,

For comparisons in hunting rifle barrel lengths(26-27"):

6.5-06 Imp 140 Berger 3070-3120fps
6.5-284 140 Berger 2950-3000fps
264WM 140 Berger 3150-3200fps
7RM 180 Berger 3020-3060fps

All can be built to be "benchrest" accurate although the 264WM tends to be a little finicky. These are actual numbers based off of drop from out to 1 mile from rifles out of the shop.

I would go with the 7RM. The 6.5's are to close to yoru 243 ballistics now and really wouldn't be much of a step up. I wouldn't worry about the belt either. Its only needed on the first firing, then just bump the shoulder like any other case. The biggest misconception is that the belt is not accurate and it has to be used for headspace. If people actually measured a virgin piece of brass compared to a headspace gauge, they would be very surprised and how much shorter it is. Accuracy is all in how they are put together. My personal 7RM has shot several groups in the .1's and .2's from a 10lb hunting rifle as well as a few sub 4" groups at 1k.

Might muddy the waters a little here and throw in the 7mm Mashburn as well for your consideration.

Travis,

What twist? How's the 7 RM or Mashburn vs the 7 WSM/SAUM?

I just paid off the 243AI scope and now this.

Back to the poor house.

It's a hard life

Go 9 twist in the 7's. The RM and Mashburn will outperform the WSM/SAUM's with lower pressures. Case capacity and heavy bullets go hand in hand. If a guy was only going to shoot 168's and lower, the WSM would be fine. The 180 is a fantastic bullet though and the larger cases drive it along much better with no effort.

<4" at 1K is super. I thought I was doing good at 600. My rifle is a hunting sporter with 26" bbl, around nine pounds all up, not a heavy, long barreled type.

It seems 600 to 1K and beyond, separates the men from the boys, and I have great respect for those who do that.

Seems to be more real long range shooting out West, and not so much locally. Although I do hunt some out West, most of my shooting has been 400 yds. or less.

DF

The 7RM and the 7WSM have nearly identical case capacities. Assuming proper throating and mag constraints, they should be identical twins in the performance department...

Depending on what action you choose, the 7mm RM is going to be considerably more flexible regarding seating depth. Most times the WSM is crowded into a "short" action with a mag limited to the SAAMI OAL, 2.860. OTOH, a 7mm RM will be a long action. Some are '06 length (like Ruger) but Remington uses an H&H length action.

Often if you set up the throat for a hunting bullet at SAAMI-acceptible length, a long VLD will also just touch the rifling with the bullet base/corner right about the base of the case neck, but with a much longer OAL, often a lot over SAAMI. Being able to take advantage of that with a real long action can be pretty handy.

Tom

The Kimber 8400 WSM action, IMO, is perfect length for that family of carts. There's a ton of mag latitude.

Tanner, if you would refresh my memory but does the Montana (aka Big Sky) hold 3 WSM rounds down or 2 with the bolt closing over top?

Thx
Dober

Dober, I do believe it holds 3 in the belly. Hopefully all I'll ever need in a volley on critters

Dober,

They're 3+1

Well......there is this....which I would not mention for fear of appearing biased,since I have one..and in an effort to be "objective". So, I stuck with what the OP put on the post as choices....Travis is braver than me...

But everything Travis says is true. That the 6.5's might manage longer strings with less recoil is no doubt true....but magnum 7's bring recoil to pretty manageable levels;and we are talking hunting cartridges here.Whatever goodness the 6.5's bring to the table, I don't understand how a bit more of the same from the 7mm's is somehow a handicap....

In comparing other 7mm's of similar capacity,how one is a winner,the other "overrated", I never understood.

As an aside issue, personally, I am not going to shoot at a big game animal with a bullet(any bullet) that can not make it through the air and flies to flinders from too much twist,and too much velocity....even if this means I leave some distance on the table.

Whoa...

OK albeit I don't know you but this...



Is a tad hard to swallow. I've watched the 1K BR nationals champion in perfect conditions barely break 5"
I've shot 1, 4.1" group in my competition days.

A few sub 4" groups at 1K from a hunting rig? If you'd a said 10" I'd be ok with that as I've done that in a hunting rig.

No worries....you are right though, we have never met. The guys that I do compete against would gladly back this up. My "hunting" rifles weigh in between 10-15lbs depending on the rig. They are basically setup the same as my tactical match rifles, which I have won benchrest matches with. In all honesty, if my rifles shoot a 10" group at 1K, they are getting rebarreled. This is under field conditions with a bipod, prone in the dirt as well. I know several guys that can easily hold 1/2moa at 1k consistently. Hell, most of our tactical matches only have 10" targets at the 1000-1200yd range. I am not sure that I could do it with my 6-7lb LW rifles, but that is not what they are designed for. In our builds, if they don't meet my 1/2moa accuracy requirement, they don't leave the shop. Our style of LRH rifles.


If you find my post hard to swallow, than that is your opinion, your entitled to it. Here is a 300yd group from one of my hunting rifles that measures in the .2's from a bipod to give you an idea. This same rifle has shot multiple 4" groups at 1k with lots of witnesses as well as multiple critters beyond the 1k mark.

Cool rigs TMR. Very cool.

Travis (TMR) built my 243 AI.

It's a one-holer at 100 yards. I'll see what it does further out this weekend.

Cocadori - I have a couple of sincere points/questions per your post.

Why go to the expense of building a 6-06 to push a 139/140 bullet " a hair shy of 3000 fps." ? I've been pushing 140 BTSPs at 3000 fps since Hornady introduced them for the 270 Win.
As a loony, a 6-06 is different, but how much? Why is it worth the extra expense? The powder charges can't be that diff.

As far a the 7 RM, I don't understand the 'belt thing' that you and others see as a problem. I've had several belted mags in 7, 8, 300, 338, & (375 not mine) over a lot of yrs. NO PROBLEMS.

The 7 RM pushes 139 BTSP at 3300 fps with 67-68 grs powder. I don't see or FEEL that as excessive.

MAYBE it just different personalities, desires, or being different AND THAT'S OKAY. I just don't feel the EXTRA EXPENSE is needed.

Sincerely, I am NOT trying to start a verbal fight.

You can put what Travis says in the bank.
He can back his words no problem.

That said, the 6.5-284 will do anything the 7 Rem mag will do in the field.
Large mule deer and elk included.

Since we're taking long range, BC is where it's at.

Your Hornady 140 BTSP has a BC of 486.

Berger's 140 VLD is 612.

Run those numbers to 1K and you'll see where the difference is.

I'd say this, that I'd include the 280 and 06 and that group as well. Hit the critters and the right place and they die. I've seen a tonnage of game taken with the various Big 7's and the .270 and the 6.5/06 (same as the 6.5/284). All of them will kill when directedly properly. Heck we've seen what J Burns has done with the 243 AI as well.

The one thing I've seen as the main diff tween the standard case size rounds vs the Big 7's is that when the game gets taken between 400-700 yds that there is a decided difference in how the game reacts to the hit. The Big 7 pounds them and kills them. The .270, 6.5/06, 280, 06 and 6.5/284 kills them but doesn't pound them.

Sure I know from time to time with the smaller rounds we'll see some spectacular kills at the longer ranges. But, day in and day out I'll bet on the kills at long range being more spectacular with the Big 7's. And please note, I surely didn't say any deader....grin

Dober

Dober has a way with words....

I think we should, from now on, categorize the killing effectivness of cartridges by including the "Pounding Factor",with Dober as "The Judge"....

Oh yeah, I like the pound effect!

Reason why I went STW for a big 7. No more 7 Rem mags, no dif between it and a 6.5-284.

SU I know yours grinds out those 180's...

TMR,

Ok the plot thickens. Now that I see your "style" of hunting rig it's easier to swallow. I too hunt with non traditional LR rigs.

Impressive.

I'm savvy...









However this is clearly my favorite. Terry makes a wonderful stock! Roger screws together an outstanding stick.

[img]http://photos.imageevent.com/wyowhisper/rifles/websize/6.5-06%20RL%2022%20142%20SMK%20500m.jpg[/img]


Do you have any pics of those 1K Br targets you won with?

This is my best day.. 3 relays in 3 different set of conditions. Byers CO where the wind blows...

[img]http://photos.imageevent.com/wyowhisper/rifles/websize/Primers%20copy.jpg[/img]

300 yards groups.

[img]http://photos.imageevent.com/wyowhisper/rifles/websize/DSC01768.jpg[/img]

Bingo!

What he ^ said!

Nevermind...

What % of hunters in America even consider shooting 500 or more yds.?? much less 1k.

You've ignored the 7 RM thing.

Nevermind, thanks anyway.

Nope not ignoring at all.

If I was running a 7rm I would be with a minimum of a 162 gr pill.

More than likely an amax or 168 berger.

I've never been a fan of the RM after the discovery of the 7 wizzum. You can do amazing things in the wizzum on a short action too.

For me though the 6.5-06 makes more sense.

Nothing to be ashamed of here, targets or sticks, I likey.....

Anybody run a 162 AMAX into an elk yet? I know they work on deer, but I like the idea of walking around with them in the mag come October...

I wish I could say I did.

I see no reason why they wouldn't make a dead Elk. If I was denting primers of a .284 Cal and they were the bullet that provided the accuracy I wanted. They'd be the one with no worries.

Tanner-a friend of mine did (162 AM and elk), I don't know the details but long and short he said he'd continue to use it on small big game like deer/lopes etc but not on elk.

Dober

Dober,

Would be very interested to hear the details at some point.

No fair, Dober!! We need more info!!

Which bullets are doing this pounding out of which Big 7s...? Inquiring minds want to know... so we can go try some...

My guess... is you are talking... 150/160 NPs out of a Mashburn?

Dang, I was hoping for a good report! That bullet is a fun one.

I know Deer and Antelope look like a freight train hit em when the 162 is launched from a 7 wizzum. I took a speed goat at 661 with an amax and I pushed the goat back 4 paces. I spotted for a pard on a mulie at a bit over 500 and same thing. We readjusted it's coordinates a bit.

How'd the insides of that buck look? Exit? I know I'm pushing them a lot slower than you, but if nothing else I'd like to shoot a buck with one.

We are talking hunting rifles here guys, although I run a 6.5-284 I now realize that once I hit .5 MOA, I quit chasing further accuracy IN HUNTING RIFLES. Instead, I practice at long range. A rifle that shoots .5 MOA @ 1000 yards is hitting within 2 1/2" of what you aim at (theoretically) and that is certainly good enough for anything but prairie dogs.

I don't hunt with 10# rifles. I have to pack them too far, in country that is too rough. My 8# rifles are bad enough.

Only complaint I have on the 7s is the recoil is noticeable and follow-up shots are not as easy. As much as I like my 6.5-284, I would not hesitate to use a 6.5-06 if it came my way.

I, too, shot 1000 yd BR for a few years; always with a 6.5-284.

My longest shot with the 6.5 is a tad over 1400 yards. I am going to build a 340 Wby for the 1400+ yard shots this year.

I'll admit when I first choose the amax I was a bit nervous about explosions. I had (on both) about a 2" exit. Both animals lungs were fairly scrambled. There were signs of mild fragmentation but not an explosion.

Some I'm sure would criticize. I am all about accuracy. So the most accurate bullet for said rifle gets the nod. From there placement is key.

Absolutely... I'd never be one to criticize dead critters at over 500 yds with an exit.

Case in point. I'll be launching 139 scenars at Mulies and Elk this year. Upon connection I'll be interested in the terminal performance of said pill.
I'll be having that little [bleep] in the back of my head saying they might pencil. But the other little [bleep] in my head will be arguing that they hold sub .5 moa accuracy well beyond 500 yards.

It's an internal battle that leaves me exhausted at times. Ha!

Well, if I ever had a doubt in my mind about running a Scenar into a critter, I'd just go take a look at some of Pat's .308/155 kills. I suppose if they are coed the same, that 139 should rock...

Ric, I should ask you as well. When you're doing load work up, is all of your testing done off the ground w/ bipod and rear bag? I'm seeing some goofy schit off the bench with a LW WSM, and am looking for a bit more consistency.

I'll come clean. I havn't used a bench since I halted 1K Br comps. I'm just more comfortable from prone and a bi-pod.

Sometimes though instead of a rear bag I'll use my rabbit ear rear bag if I think I made en error.

Many out there will flame me for it but It seem to work for me.

Makes a lot of sense to me. I think that's where some of my accuracy will lie, I need to get off the [bleep] bench. I don't carry one around the canyons... looks like it'll be bipod and rear bag next time at the range.

I think Dober will tell you.....175 NPT from the Mashburn.160's work well, too.

I've never used the thin jacketed target type bullets on elk because I was raised in a different bullet culture.It seems they may be the ticket for very long range shooting,because their light construction allows reliable bullet expansion at long distance where velocity has fallen off.But they may not be the ticket for the more general run of elk hunting.

These may be just the ticket in the hands of these skilled shooters on here who specialize in long range shooting,and require the accuracy inherent with these bullets at great distance.

But I think for more "normal" distances,something of stouter construction may be a better bet,because not all elk are killed in the next postal zip code....likely beyond the skill sets of those who do not shoot elk beyond 500-600 yards(for the majority, even that is a stretch).And to that distance,it is not hard to get even a lowly Nosler Partition (or something similar),to shoot accurately,and expand properly and do a thorough job of penetrating elk bone,hide, and muscle....and what might be just the ticket at 700-800 yards, may fail miserably in the lodgepoles where the only crack may be in the short ribs, angling away on a big bull,and you have to reach the off side shoulder to dump him quickly.

I admire the skills of the long range boys, but I won't be taking my bullet cues from them for general purpose BG hunting.

Bob, them there's my sentiments too.

Since I'm comfortable at 400 yds on deer, I don't see 600 yds being impossible on elk. They are 3 - 4 Xs larger than deer.

That said how often is a GOOD shot offered at 600yds. ??

I agree with your 6.5-284 comments. I haven't shot that far with mine, more like 650 yds. It's strictly a hunting type rifle, not in a long range target rifle configuration.

Curious about your new build. Why would you go with the .340 Wby. over the .338 Lapua?

DF

This is my elk experience with the 162 Amax.
Hunter... My 12 yr old son
Rifle... Rem BDL/Sendero parts gun
Cartridge... 7 STW
Muzzle Vel... 3240 fps
Impact Vel... 2430 fps
Range...558 yrds
Medium sized Roosevelt cow elk
The cow was broadside. The bullet entered the crease behind the shoulder and hitting one rib. The bullet expanded and continued on till it contacted the lower edge of the spine between the shoulders leaving a half moon of spine missing. Lungs shredded!!
Elk's reaction at impact was instant collapse with a head bounce.
The big issue in my book was I couldn't find any damage to the far side of the rib cage. Basically after hitting the spine the bullet broke up enough that nothing was heavy enough to leave the far lung and impact the other side.
Did it work in this case? YES.
Do I consider it an all around use elk bullet? Certainly not in a magnum application.
Will I continue to use it in the 500+ yrd broadside application? YES.

Hmmm. Wonder how they'd do at 200-600 when started at 2800?

In my experience just as good as closer. Except they look smaller.

Tanner, it's not my story to tell so I won't go into it anymore than this. I'm pretty dang sure that the starting speed was about 2750 and the shot was at about 600.

My gut on the bullet tells me it's gonna do well on small big game like deer/lopes/black bruins etc. I spect from time to time on large big game like elk it's gonna make one wonder.

This brings me to the NBT, while it doesn't have zonker high BC it's got plenty. And yet it's gonna hold together pretty darn well especially at the longer ranges. But, it also does a tonnage of tissue damage. To me it's the best of all worlds, but I've used it a ton so I feel really comfy with it.
To date out of my 7 Mashburn Super I've not had one fail to exit and it does pound the critters hard!

The BC it gives to a couple other bullets only is an aid in wind (to me) as the up down is easy to work with. Long and the short if the winds going much over 5 mph I'm not going long on game. Steel sure, light the torch. By my way of thinking shooting at game at long range (500 on out) is incredibly foolish thing to do...But, that's just my opinion.


Dober

Agreed on all points on the bullets! I've got some 140 NBTs to try out of the 270 WSM. My bro has hammered multiple critters with that bullet, its a great one.

Similar case capacity, availability of brass, ability to use a standard sized action and not a monster 3 pounder AND, I have a reamer already with a proven accuracy track record.

The Lapua .338 brass is grossly over-priced, over sized and overweight!

Mark, if you don't mind me asking, what speeds are you getting with those in you Mashburn?

Smoke-7828 is generally running the 150 NBT @ 3250. I haven't messed with other powders much in recent years and this loads done well for me on game thru 3 barrels. I could hit it harder if I wish but I've found this load to do all I want with ease out to 700 yds. (I have a 4-14 Leo with Premier dotz to 700 on it)

R25 is what I've used with the 175 Noz Semi spitzer.

Dober

Gracias!!!! Just got my form dies in the mail, gonna load some BT's tonight.

BTW, I got up to 3,200 with 162 Amax's, no obvious pressure signs with Retumbo, but better accuracy down around 3075 with H-1000.

While it does not have the .625 bc of the A-max. The 162 gr btsp interlock will shoot bug hole groups. My #1 in STW will group the 162 btsp well inside an inch.

And I do know the bullet will kill a bull. Although at a lasered 325 yds, I could only find an entrance hole for each of the three bullets I dumped into his lungs. One from the left side, one from the right side, and one more from the rear as he began to walk away from me. The last entered the pocket just under the right hip bone and then punched through the liver and diaphragm. The bull finally fell over about twenty five steps later.

Thanks.

I see your logic.

DF

Of course, a 338 edge is just a 338-300 RUM improved and flies neck and neck with the lapua and is easy on the pocket book.

smokepole was there a big accuracy difference at the higher velocity?

I don't think there is a nickels worth of difference performance-wise between any of those list. We are high-jacking his thread though...

Can't really tell yet, still messing around with forming the brass, all groups were shot with unfired brass and it was a little crooked. Went from around an inch at 3075 to an inch-and-a-half or more at 3200.

I'm the OP

My apologies for the hijack. I still think the 7 will be the best 'compliment'.

IMHO,

The .264WM will have the flattest trajectory but will have somewhat the shortest barrel life of the three.

The 7mmRM will make a slightly bigger hole and offer better retained energy at long range, but not as flat a shooter.

The 6.5-.284 will possibly, depending on the rifle, be the most accurate of the three. It will also have the longest barrel life, but is a bit deficient in terms of flat trajectory and retained energy.

Which is most important to you?

Of the three, I would pick the 7mm for elk, the .264 for pronghorn through caribou sized game, and the 6.5-284 for lots of practice.

I have a hard time believing that a x284 tube would last longer than a 7RM tube.

Why's that Tanner?

Well, I suppose that's pretty situational. Seems like you hear about a lot more guys setting back or replacing barrels on the 6.5s... But it makes sense because not many guys are shooting 7Remmies in matches.

Think the barrels would last about the same with hunting level accuracy?

The only time you will have barrel issues with any of them is if you are pounding lead through them like there is no tomorrow. The average hunter could care less with todays barrels.

Figure out the powder volume-to-bore diameter ratio, and you'll have a fair idea of how barrel life compares between the two, all else being equal.

Well, I'll admit I've never shot out a 7RM or 6.5-284 barrel, most likely because I've never owned one of either. But looking at the case capacity/pressures generated, if I was betting I'd bet on the 6.5-284 lasting longer, all other things being equal, 140's in the 6.5 and 160s in the 7.

Maybe you hear about barrel replacement and set-backs more from 6.5 shooters because 6.5 shooters tend to be rifle loonies and that's what rifle loonies do. And talk about. I'd bet the "average" 6.5-284 shooter would be more likely to be into competitive shooting, or at least long-range steel banging than the "average" 7RM shooter, so more likely to be into setting back and re-barreling.

I'd be interested to hear what the 6.5-284 shooters have to say about it.

That figure is also known as "Relative Capacity". It tells you how many inches of barrel length it takes to make a volume equal to the case volume. And, of course, it gives a relative measure of "overboreness".

For the 6.5-.284 it comes out to 3.98 with a typical 140gr spitzer seated out to maximum COAL. The number will change a bit with different bullets and seating depths because they change the amount of bullet intruding into the powder volume.

For the 7mmRM with a 160gr spitzer, the relative capacity is 4.89. The number for the .264WM with the 140gr spitzer is 5.62.

I suspect the reason that the 6.5-.284 is popular among long range target shooters is that it is one of the least overbore cartridges that can keep a sufficiently high BC bullet above the transonic region to 1000 yards. Serious target shooters replace or refresh their barrels often because they can easily burn up 3000 rounds in a season of load development, practice, and competition.

Has anyone tried the 160 gr .509 BC Woodleigh PPSN? in the 264WM?
It looks like a interesting bullet and should fly better than the Hornady 160gr round nose which has loads at 2860 fps. It might be faster in a long barrel.

"That figure is also known as "Relative Capacity". It tells you how many inches of barrel length it takes to make a volume equal to the case volume. And, of course, it gives a relative measure of "overboreness"."

I should clarify that Relative Capacity is calculated by dividing the case volume by the CROSS-SECTIONAL AREA of the bore.

Is there a range of "good" relative capacity numbers?

I take it from the discussion above less is better?

I think 30338 shoots 'em in his 6.5-06, you might want to ask him.

Only if pie are square.

NO - pie are round; cornbread are square..

Pi R square

Well, good for what? Less is not necessarily better. It's kind of like asking whether red is better than blue or purple.

If you play with the numbers, you can see values ranging from about 0.6 for a .22LR through somewhere in the twos and threes for most modern mainstream centerfire rifle cartridges, like .308W, and on up over the fives and higher for hot magnums like .30-.378, etc.

In general, the lower values are for mild, modest velocity cartridges with mild muzzle blast, stingy powder consumption, and long barrel life. .22 Hornet, 32-20, and 30-30 fit in this category. It's not hard to find a good use for them.

At the other end of the spectrum are your hot magnums. They're loud, cranky, expensive, and burn out barrels quickly. But if you want to kill an elk with one shot very much over six hundred yards, this is where you should direct your attention.

Bag it.. Ride it like you stole it and put it away wet

W

Why a 280 Ai? Seems the expense would be comparable to the 6/06 or 6.5/06. Why not the standard 284 win? Hell i think you could drive 168's around 3000 +. Maybe 180's around 2900. If you used a long action you might get 3000 with 180's, depending on COAL. The sky is the limit on opinion. Wildcats and standard rounds are there for all of us to choose whats best for what we intend there use. I promise that a dead elk from your 280 AI is no more dead than the one shot from my 7 rm or 284 win.

Good post....maybe the most informative one on the thread.Great description of the damage.

Sounds like the bullet had plenty of expansion for the distance.

But given the distance (558 yards),and the fact that the bullet lacked the integrity to make it to the off side even after velocity had fallen off a good deal,I can't help but wonder how it would have done into a shoulder at close range (pick a distance).

Nice if a guy can cherry pick broadside shots,but that kind of performance would be enough to put me off the bullet for general purpose elk hunting for good.



Did someone already say the 7 Rem Mag is the way to go here?

I'd choose none of the above. It would be either a .260 or a 6.5 Creedmor. Why ? Because I need to shoot it alot. I find it fascinating that two of the more prominent long range hunters who post here, Scenarshooter and John Burns, tend to go for the lighter kicking rounds. Both of them shoot alot. I believe Scenarshooter posted once that he's probably fired about 10,000 155 gr. Lapua Scenar bullets alone. That and he, and John, practice in the same country, with the same conditions where he hunts. Something I wish I could do.
You gotta be able to hit'em and hit'em right, first.
You can argue all you want about punching them vs. pounding them. I'll take punching them in just the right place anyday. E

After shooting in some variable winds a few weeks ago at 775 yards, I have to say the 7 Rem compared to some smaller rounds like my 257 Roy has a lot going for it. The 7 Rem we have has a long throat setup for 180 bergers and it just stomped my Roy. Has me wanting to retube the flamer again.

Dibs on the 257 Bee barrel!

I have shot elk with a 270 Win, 308 Norma Mag, and 340 Weatherby. Back when I wonted a rifle with more energy than the 270 Win a 308 Norma Mag was a leader in 1000 Yd shooting. So I got a sporter weight 308 NM . In the areas where I hunted in Wyo and Colo I have never taked a long shot. The shortest shot was about 50 yards and the longest was about 300 yards. I have a 264 Win Mag for mule deer and two 7 MM Rem Mags which I have not shot. After looking at reloading data and bullet drop and energy of various cartridges at 500 yards I could get by very well with a 7 MM Rem Mag, but it wasent made when I got the 270 Win or 308 Norma Mag. Im a old timer and I like to read about you long shooter and the rifles you like.

264 WM!!!

How about the 6.5x68? It's european and it's supposed to equal or better the 264 Win Mag without the belt.

Thoughts?

You'd really go with, that canon, the .260. Just go with the .243 has less recoil than the .260. It's all about shot placement anyway. Start getting insecure about the size of your bullet and it won't end at the .260, you'll then be thinking you want more with the 7mm-08.

30338:

The 7 Rem Mag wins this horse race by more than a length....any 264 advantage is gonna be based on number crunching because the 7mm will get there with more bullet, more frontal area,and the capacity to do more "work"; and beat out the 6.5's today for the same reasons it beat them out in 1962.....140 gr of bullet vs 175 to 180(today).To those who say this does not matter I say "phooey"...

No ballistic table will convince me otherwise.

Bob.....you could say the same for a 30 caliber 200 versus the 7mm 175 , or a 33 250 beats the 200 gr 30.....its all about how much recoil a person wants to deal with


I find the 264 more comfortable to shoot by a fair bit than any bigger magnum

Since its introduction, the 7MM Rem Mag has virtually rewritten hunting manuals. In knowledge of youth, when I knew everything, I tried to convince myself that a .270 Win was a better choice. My old .270 Win did do its job. But as wisdom, or seasoning, or any other euphemism for age began to creep up on me, I took another look at the 7MM Rem Mag. I'm glad I did. There's long range music in .284 bullets to the tune of deep penetration and harmonic accuracy. I've been dancin' the cartridge jig ever since.

The 7MM Rem Mag: magnum opus of hunting cartridges!

The song will remain the same.


R

SD: Of course..Given......never meant to imply your analogy is without merit. There is an advantage to more bullet weight and caliber,but the gain comes at an expense,and how much a person wants to put up with is the issue for many.

I find almost any 7mm Magnum recoil pretty trifling in a rifle of moderate weight...300's less so anymore.The 264 kicks less, of course,because bullets are lighter....there is the tradeoff,and for me the balance point is the additional bullet weight of the 7mm's...not quite 30 cal, but close, yet heavier by a margin than the 6.5's. Again..tradeoff

Bob, My 8.5 twisted 7mm Rock barrel gets here on Tuesday. My buddy bought my 257 Roy barrel and this one is heading to smith soon. Going to throat it for 3.49 OAL with 160 accubond which gets a 180 berger out to around 3.51. Thinking I can also get to lands with 168 berger but just barely. One of the 3 will perk I am guessing. And should have back in time for fall.

30338: That sounds good! I hear the Rock is a great barrel....I hope it shoots but not much to guess about there.Good barrel and the 7RM is an accurate cartridge. You should be GTG!

7 Mag.

7LRM is an unreal round, gun wrecks has the right idea and it would be a perfect 7mm if not for one thing, the barrel life is down right pathetic. I've never met a person that said they shot a 7LRM 1000 times without the accuracy getting worse and worse, maximum life expectancy of this caliber before your barrel falls of your gun is only 2000 rounds.

You've gotta be kidding me....

I just bought one of each .
7mm rem /. Sako aV
264 win. / . Rem mod 700 sendro
6.5x284/. Win push feed with a McMillan a1 and a feather weight lilga

They all are my favorites and I hate making my mind .

It might pay to take a gander over at the long range hunting forum and see what most have to say about the 7 RM. Most of the fellas over there opt for the 6.5 x 284 and even the 280 AI because of there 308 like load qualities and inherent accuracy when pushed hard.( To the limit of Saami pressures) The 7 mag is indeed more of an animal however it is an animal that is more difficult to control. The 7 mag can be extremely accurate but can also be like an ADD child getting ready to have a bad day. Take a gander it will be worth your time.

Shod

Reminds me if a dog chasing his tail.....

Then get a 280 if you require better barrel life than what a magnum 7 would provide. Not too many people put 1-2000 rounds through very many rifles. I only actually real life know two. Both of those guys shoot prairie dogs. Several guys here on the fire shoot that much but your not listing to them. I'm NOT one of those guys btw......

Not running a 7 Remmie for LR work because you want something cooler....... is like wearing cut-offs and a t-shirt to church, just because everyone else has on suit and tie......

7 Rem Mag is by far the most common and available cartridge capable of launching .600+ BC pills at 3k+..... look it up. The .264 Winny is also capable here.... and is a sound option for a guy wanting 'factory cool'.

Having built 30-40 7Rem Mags for customers over the last couple of years, I can definitely say they are not finicky. The 264WM on the other hand takes some work to keep it running. The 6.5-284 is nice, but the 7RM is a better all around.

They are all good cartridges because if they were not they wouldn't garner the support of the long range crowd.But the best 7mm bullets out weigh the best 6.5 bullets by 20-40 grains,and as a general purpose BG cartridge that advantage alone is worthy of consideration.I don't care how you measure bullet performance and wound channel creation....that extra bullet material has to go somewhere, and do something.I think it counts as an advantage for the 7mm,along with expanded frontal area.

Also, I for one hope not to shoot groups on BG animals...so long strings of shots on gongs and PD's don't enter the equation for me..

Recoil? The 7 RM will recoil a bit more while still not climbing into the category of the big 30's.

Barrel life? Who cares. I have spares ready for installation.

Temperamental? I married a beautiful, but temperamental woman who is smarter than me....life is a challenge.Who cares?

Besides, ever load a 264,add one grain of powder, and watch velocities climb 150 fps? I have....

I will take the 7mm Rem Mag,although I do "like" the 264.

I like the 7mm Rem Mag, and am working with one. A McWoody stock is being delivered in two days and I'll get it up and running soon.

For .264 cal, I like the 6.5-284 with 140 gr. bullets. I can get 3,000 fps easily, can push it to 3,100 fps. It's a very efficient round and it takes more powder to run a .264 Win Mag. I've reloaded for the .264, never owned one (not looking to own one). It will take an exceptional .264 Win Mag to out shoot my 6.5-284. From my experience, it's easier to get a 6.5-284 shooting half inch groups than a .264 Win Mag and the velocity difference isn't enough to make me a fan of the larger round.

YMMV.

DF

I like all of the chamberings mentioned, but unless you have a .264 Winchester Magnum, you'll never see what it's like to send 140 grain bullets with BC's around .615 way downrange at 3250 fps.

It's pretty amazing

JMO, but the 6.5-284 Norma is over-rated, only giving velocities slightly more than my Creedmoor or a .260 Remington. Take a hard look at the 6.5 Remington Magnum as well

The 140's at speed are amazing for sure. Although not listed, a 180 7mm at those speeds are fairly impressive as well!

A 7 Mag won't push a 180 to 3200 fps, and that's just it.

But a 7 Rogue will.

Yeah, there's a lot of chamberings that move bullets with giant BC's at hyperspeed, but the OP was asking opinions on "264 Win vs 6.5X284 vs 7mm Rem mag"

If we are talking strictly 7 Rem Mag, the 180 Berger moving at 3050 is pretty hefty medicine.

I'd still like to mess around with the 6.5 140s at high speed, though

Nope, A 7RM won't get there...but in a 28" barrel it will drive a 180 to 3100. 26-27" barrels run 3020-3050 pretty consistently. Running those numbers with a 180 Hybrid at .674BC, it becomes pretty impressive. The 6.5 140's at the 3200-3300 range are also impressive. Lots of great choices.

3,250 fps is impressive. The .264's I've worked with were more finicky than the 6.5-284 to get really tight groups. I guess one could put one together than would shoot pretty well. With a good turret scope, the 6.5-284 does what I need it to do on hogs, whitetails and pronghorns out to 500-600 yds.

I'm not a 1,000 yd. shooter, don't have much opportunity to shoot that far, so I may not enjoy the extra 200 fps as much as someone who was. For game animals larger than those mentioned, I'd probably choose a heavier caliber.

DF

I look at impact speed to properly open up a hunting vld to help make me determine which mv speed is needed.

I figure if I'm killing game at 1,000 of which I have never done and probably never will. All I'll ever need is 2,900 fps mv in a 6.5/140. 6.5-284 territory.

Or, my 260 Ackley shooting a 130 vld will do the same thing at 3,000 mv.

In shooting the 6.5's I'll get a whole lot more practice in, as they are far more fun to shoot than a bigger 7.

All you have to do is watch some of John Burns videos and see what scenarshooter has done with 6.5's at long distance to see that the 6.5 vld kills just as effective as a larger 28 caliber.

I've killed elk with the 264 and 6.5-284 out to 400 yds and I can tell no difference between them and the 7's I've used to kill elk, and I've killed over 30 elk using a 28 caliber rifle.

I killed a nice mule deer this year with a 6.5/130 vld to see and know the results were better than expected.

I'm looking hard at the 6.5 Rem Mag to get the speed I want at a reduced pressure than the 6.5-284.

After owning 3 264's and messing with the finickiness of them. I'm pretty much done with them, and I really don't need the extra speed and recoil that comes with them.
Same could be said with the larger 28. That said, I miss my STW!! And think a 7mm wby would be an awesome choice!

SU35,

Some of these guys must be putting .264 Win Mag's together that shoot pretty tight groups, or they wouldn't be whacking small targets at extended ranges.

From my experience with that round, it's gotta be an art form making that happen. I'm like you, I don't cherish spending time fooling with another .264.

DF

DF,

Yep, I've never been able to acquire the ballistic hermeneutics, aka, art and science of the 264 like I wanted.

Please explain, as the two have virtually identical case capacities. I ask because I too have been thinking about the 6.5mm RM lately.

Would you care to share some of the loads that would take you above 3000fps with a 180gr in a 26" barrel (including OAL)?

Thanks.

With RL-17 and a 130 Swift, my buddy gets 3250 out of his 6.5 Remington Magnum. Blows the 6.5-284 away

What is the reason for that? I believe the two cases are within 1/3 grain case capacity, so they should be similar performance.

I took some H4831 and filled a 6.5-284, 6.5-06, and 6.5 RM to the mouth of the case.

Roughly, I could load 7 more grains of powder in the 6.5 RM than the 284 case and 5 grains more than the 06 case.

For the velocity I want, around 2,900+ or so. You have to push the 284 case hard. With the 6.5 RM case you can do it with lesser pressure, and, you can load the 6.5 RM case up to higher speeds closer to 264 win mag if you like with less recoil.
I think RM case more flexible.




I can tell you that I had TMR build me a 7mm RM with a Brux 27" 8.6 twist barrel for 180 Bergers.

I could never get 3,000 mv out of it. I tried Retumbo, RL25, 7828 ect. Never could.

He may have had a lot of Retumbo that could get him there. My keg couldn't.

I also found it easier to go 7STW with a 26" barrel than 7 RM with a 27" or 28" barrel in trying to get 3,000 mv. No dif in recoil between the two as my shoulder told me.

btw, Travis is a heck of a rifle-smith!

I was mistaken about the case capacities; it all makes sense then!

My two 7mm RMs have 25.5" barrels on them and I haven't tried the 180gr Berger, but I doubt I could get much over 2900fps, given my results with 175gr Partitions and Gamekings.