Are there any programs that I can enter data on my reloads to and get close to the velocity? I know it's not going to be exact but close. Looked in reload manuals and they are to vague.

You can make a ballistic pendulum.

I made one years ago before the modern chrono's came out.

Make it up!

well if your rifle is accurate enough you can measure drop from like 200 to 800 yards but that is still kinda if'ee if you can find the "advertised" BC of the bullet you are shooting

save and get a chrony. They are not expensive anymore

If you shoot at a large range or club, there will usually be someone their with a crony set up. Offer them ten to twenty dollars to test your load. Obviously, this would be after you have worked up an accurate load to establish long range drop tables and not just playing around while working up loads. If you "take over" someone's valuable range time, you may not be welcome the next time. Given the low prices of good units, you should consider buying one if you have a number of guns and/or plan on doing serious long range shooting.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/531741/shooting-chrony-f1-chronograph

I would do this:

From your cartridge reloading data on the powder manufacturer's website, a velocity range will be listed for your powder charge range and bullet weight.

Make an educated guess at your actual velocity

Go to JBM Ballistics Computer, a free ballistic computer online, enter ACCURATE atmospheric and equipment data and print a drop chart out to 1000 yards.

Go to your club and shoot at known ranges as far out as you can using the printed data. If it is incorrect, adjust your scope till you are making solid hits and notate the correct drop data.

Go back into JBM and adjust the velocity input till drop output matches your actual shooting.

Done.

Well that will work great if you have an accurate BC for your bullet. But they have been known to fug a little to sell bullets.

I like rcamuglia's suggestion, makes sense, but how do I find an accurate BC chart, now?????

Access to a chrony is too easy get the real numbers and stop guessing.

JBM has most of the popular bullets listed in a drop down at the top of the page. I've used this method out to 800yds and it will get you on paper. I have a 300yd range at the house and would see how much drop between 100 and 300. Then I would adjust velocity numbers till I came up with the right drop at 300. Yes I know, I need a chrony.

It'd be much easier just to find someone with a chrony and shoot a couple of rounds through it. If you're coming through east central mississippi then stop and use mine. It takes me all of 30 seconds to set it up.

Thanks for all your help, had some cabelas bucks to use and have one on the way!!!

Everything I'm saying here is under the context of Long Range.

You'll find that the more you use the Chrono, the more you really don't need one.

The BC's listed from many sources, whether they be from the manufacturer or a ballistic program's library are accurate. The bullet's BC can vary out of different barrels anyway.

What really matters is how your groups are at long range on paper.

If you have a lot of vertical dispersion, you probably have inconsistent velocity as well as the bullet exiting after the barrel swing has peaked and started down again.

Find a load with zero vertical at long range, ballpark the velocity by using load data and enter everything into your program. Adjust velocity to make actual drop data match the ballistic program's output. You can even tweak the bullet's BC a touch if needed.

I have a Chronograph and use it during development just to determine if the load component combo is giving me the velocity I want and expect. Other than that, the proof is in the shooting.

I know that what you said was in the context of long range, but how do you get there without first using a chronograph in load development, as you said at the end of your post? Seems to me that whether you need a chronograph all depends on your purpose.

Personally, I'd just buy a chrony and be done with it. Without one you could spend a lot of time messing around developing loads that are accurate at 100 yards only to find out you're not getting the velocities you want once you switch to long range. Versus using a chrony and knowing the velocities right off the bat and switching to a different powder if you're not getting the velocities you want.

You might burn up enough components guessing to pay for a chrony.

I made a search for a chrony on ebay, It took me a couple months but in the end I picked up my chrony F1 new for $50.

For a shooter and reloader, particularly for one that will shoot at long range $50 or $100 for a chrony is money well spent.

Its amazing the number of loads that are 100+ FPS slower or faster than the book suggests. Its just a key item for load devlopment.

When I set mine up at the range its not uncommon to have folks want to shoot over it. I won't let others shoot over it, but I will shoot their rifles over it. I never thought of charging for a velocity check.

I have read this reply 6 times now........sorry you have no [bleep] idea of what you are talking about......very funny though

Sorry you wasted $50 on worthless POF......save a few more $ and get a real chronograph ,get an Oehler or keep guessing

How do you know if the chrono is accurate? How do you calibrate it?

numbchuck, that says more about your very limited mental capacity than anything...what happens at the target trumps all if you've a clue

but you don't

Most published BC figures are approximate. Bryan Litz's book Applied Ballistics (www.appliedballisticsllc.com) has the most accurate figures, from actual firing at various velocities.

The cheaper chronographs may or may not give accurate results. Actual firing at various ranges is the only way to find out where bullets land at different ranges.

JB, I think you just gave an idea for an article on chronographs. On the reliablity of velocity numbers and the amount of deviation a chrono may have.

Oh Froggy you weak minded little twit, still trying to act like Big Stick but cant pull it off

ooh, that stings, runt.

or not. laffin'

I just returned from a long-range precision class put on by Frank Proctor of wayofthegun.us in Lincoln AL. Prior to going, I had loaded several hundred .308's using Federal GMM brass, 168-grain Nosler BTHP's, and 46.0 grains of Varget. I fired five over my RCBS chronograph and they averaged 2740 fps. The Nosler's book BC is .462.

Within the first 30 minutes of range time, Frank had us establish a perfect zero at 100 yards. We then gave him our book BC values (or he assigned a number from memory if we didn't know) and we guessed at a muzzle velocity (I already knew mine, but the rest made educated guesses as 4 of the 5 of us were shooting handloads). He ran the numbers in his ballistics app on his cell phone and gave us the predicted elevation for 685 yards. He had a target berm at that distance and had spread out an array of clay pigeons on the berm. We then went one at a time and held on the upper left clay while Frank watched the shot through his Leupold spotting scope with mill dots. (At that range you can easily see the vapor trail as the bullet is "lobbed" onto the berm and can clearly spot the point of impact in the dirt). Frank would measure the exact drop through the scope and walk us on target as we fine-tuned our elevation setting. Once we either broke the clay or hit on either side of it (we had a slight variable side wind), we recorded our exact elevation setting. Frank then re-ran the numbers through his app (I believe it was Shoot, but I'm not 100% certain on that) and gave us our calculated muzzle velocity. In my case, I had chronographed my ammo in Ohio in about the same temperature and at the same elevation as we were shooting in Alabama, and had a measured velocity of 2740. His calculated velocity was 2725. We then filled out our range cards using data from his app, and then shot at steel plates at 215, 330, 420, 550, 685, and 710. Occasionally we had to hold into the wind on one side or the other, but the elevation dope was spot on.

According to Frank (who is/was a sniper instructor in Army Special Forces), calculating velocity with this method is only accurate at very long range when the bullet has really slowed down and is sharply dropping. In fact, my particular scope did not have enough elevation to get out to 685, so we initially tried his method with my rifle at 420. I fiddled with the elevation setting until I was ringing the 6" gong like the bells of St. Mary's. When Frank put my elevation in, he calculated a velocity of 2950 or so. I have a 26" barrel, but my load of Varget is a compressed load (making an overcharge virtually impossible), and while it is a book maximum, I had safely worked up from below and I knew there was no way they were going that fast, as the Nosler manual gives a velocity of 2700 something and I had clocked them at 2740. We then repeated it at 685 and I used the lower duplex in my scope as an aiming point (which took my maximum elevation from 13.5 MOA to 18.5) and I broke the clay with my first shot. Using that elevation then gave us the calculated velocity of 2725. So, his method appeared to be very accurate at 685, but not so much at 420, just as he had said.

Greg Perry

Where have we heard this before? Hmmmmm...

LO F'ing L !

Yep, rcamuglia, you are right on.

I am no long range expert, but I can testify that the approach you described in your posts definitely works. Frank's ballistic app captured the atmospheric data from the closest weather station, so we didn't have to worry about that too much. There is no evidence quite as convincing as real-world hits, and it was satisfying to know that my book-estimated BC value and my $150 chronograph pretty much agreed with what I could actually see and hear.

As you said, the proof is in the shooting.

The OP wanted to know how to get the velocity of his load without using a chronograph. If atmospheric data is correct (from a local weather station or from a Kestrel at your location) and BC and estimated velocity of the bullet is input into a reputable ballistic program then shot for real world confirmation, the velocity input to the program can be adjusted so that real world drop data will match the output drop data of the ballistic program

The ballistic program velocity number that works matching real world drop data is more reliable than a 50$ chronograph says.

I do this with every load I develop for myself or for someone else.

In the big picture velocity is meaningless (unless it is outside acceptable parameters for the cartridge/bullet combo). What matters is having reliable drop data that gives you first round hits

This will work.

Yep. I actually prefer to tweak my BC and velocity to match actual drop date than use a manufacturers BC and even a good chronos readings. The only real problem with this method is you are at the mercy of your scope manufacturer. If your clicks do not truly reflect 1/4 MOA or whatever is given you can be a mite off when your environment changes.

I have a chronograph, but it still takes real trigger time to compare hits to computer generated drop data.

Much like folks that put SO damn much emphasis on low SD/ES... doesn't matter if it won't group.

You have to shoot it at the ranges you'll use it. I would NOT EVER trust blind data from calcs....

I'm going to be perfectly honest and state that for the last 3-4 loads that I've shot past 500 yards, I didn't use a chrony to determine the velocity on them.

WOW this post (thread etc.)went in the wrong direction from the start.......HOW TO CHEAT AND MAKE THING'S EASY !!!!!!!!!!!!! (Obama factor).

To get an accurate velocity and SD/ES.... you need a real chronograph (not a chrony!!!!!)and do true load developement

Lets see what reason would I have for accurate velocity? To plug it into a ballistics program is about the only need I have. I do not need to know SD/ES if I have no vertical dispersion at long range. IMO what I can learn and implement from actually shooting and collecting data trumps what I can learn from a chronograph any day.

Shoot a target at 100 yards..count the seconds it takes for the bullet to hit the target...ie 0.125 seconds....divide 300 feet by .125 seconds...velocity = 2400 fps.

......or just buy a good one and trust it.

No offense meant. I'm just bored today.

It works! I just tried it and my SD and ES went way down!

for most, the object is not to see how hard we can make this schitt, but i suppose some people may think obcessing over minutiae will give the same results as actually shooting at long range...

i guess it is also 'cheating' to work up a load in ten rounds or less instead of doin' multiple ladders looking for nodes and schitt.

Uh, ..yes?

I guess....



But I could be wrong IME

I won't lie though and say that often times I drag out the Oehler. Run a few rounds over it so I can get an idea of drops to start with. But beyond that the Oehler got used to see if I was where I needed to be with some certain projects. Such as 90 jlks in 223 in 20 inch tube. You have to be at a certain speed for them to better an 80 in the wind. Doesn't matter how accurate etc... if the wind drift part is not making life better but worse, it will generally show on your scores for any given day at a match.

But I've seen folks shoot over a chrono, run something like JBM, carry it and never fire a round at 500 or maybe even 300 and proclaim themselves good to go.

I think that say out to 300 with a MV and a program you would be generally safe, but beyond that much, trusting calcs off MV just doesn't get it for me.

As noted, range time is the best you can get. Then you know exactly how accurate a load is, at that distance, how much it drops. And probably to an extent how much it drifts if you are keeping track of wind speed via kestrel or such, and actual corrections.

Doing all of my load work at long range is just too convenient for me to do it that way. It is far more convenient than dragging out my oehler. I am more likely to glue a sensor on a barrel and use pressure trace than set up my chrono. I cna understand someone getting a starting point using a chronograph but I usually just get mine from quick load. I cannot count the number of times that I have used a QL estimated velocity and a manufacturers BC and ended up plus or minus 1/2 MOA on my 800 yard target. The only painful thing to me about the whole long range load work up is driving to the target. I have nearly abandoned the the use of a chronograph for long range rifles. I do still use it for 100/200 yard BR rifles, but that is about it these days.

Don't have quickload. But maybe I should google it and see if I can put it on a Mac....

As I matured as a shooter the chrono gets less and less use.

Thanks, Jeff

+1 on QL for the predicted MV. you can just roll your data from QL into Quick Target and have your predicted drops in seconds. after the range work i do always run JBM range cards (corrected if necessary) because my printer makes nicer print from JBM than QuickTarget and had nicer options for the card.

Years ago, I bought a Sako HB 243. I found the load I liked at 100 yards, then went to 200 and sighted in for the latter distance. Then I went back to 100 and shot to see the poi. By calculating the POI at 100, I used the Hornady loading manual with the given bullet and it said I was getting about 3350 fps.

Some years later, I chronographed the load and it was 3350 fps. Close enough for me