Flight 215 now boarding at gate 308!

My neighbor/friend/24hcf member Broz has been shooting the 215 Berger (G1 BC .696...!) with great success in his 300 WinMag this year. He gave me a few to test in the 308, so we'll see what happens.

I moly'd and loaded them up over RL17. Expecting roughly 2575/2675 fps respectively from my 20.5" and 26" 308s.

I'm curious if they will stabilize in the 1/12 barrel, but the 208s and 225s have, so who knows. Only one way to find out.

I'll get back with velocity/accuracy data soon, wether it be good or dismal.

Slick looking bullet Shane. I look forward to your results!

I hope it works out for you.

Nice looking bullets.

Wow, now that is an ICBM!

Looking forward to the results.Glad to see a great cartridge in the limelight for a change.Still one of the very best IMO but I may be a tad prejudice..

Wow! That's a smoking BC....

Let us know how they do!

wowza! hey, that's a bullet that might actually touch the lands in a Remmy. I assume you're just going to single-load them?

The oal to lands is 3.104 and 3.108 in the rifles. I loaded them to 3.10 and called it good for both.

This 215gr Berger is one of their hybrid designs. The ogive is tangent coming off the bearing surface, then secant out to the tip. This is supposed to make the bullet less sensitive to jump distance to the lands, and is part of the reason I loaded them both to 3.10".

Yes they will definitely be single loaded. In fact, to eject an unfired round, I have to hit the bolt release to get the bullet to clear the receiver. Needless to say, this arrangement is only for testing.

I'm heading out to shoot these today.

BTW, I did put a Wyatt's mag box in one of my 308s, it will now accomodate the 208 (or any other) loaded to 2.99" oal. That's a different story, I'll get to it in the future.

Patiently waiting for results and the story of the Wyatt's box.

So these are the new Hybrids?

Shane--the new Hybrids like a .015" jump.

Several of the guys in my F-Class league have tried them in diff calibers, and some of the guys at the state shoot-said the same thing.

If they aren't all that great in the lands, back 'em off a bit and see what happens.

Originally Posted by MontanaMarine

I moly'd and loaded them up over RL17. Expecting roughly 2575/2675 fps respectively from my 20.5" and 26" 308s.

Tag, to watch this one closer. I only got 2675 in my 26" 308 with 168's. I am interested in seeing your results.

Originally Posted by Suicycle

Patiently waiting for results and the story of the Wyatt's box.

Does the Wyatt add much weight?

Originally Posted by Ackleyfan

So these are the new Hybrids?

Yes.

Originally Posted by Reloder28

Originally Posted by Suicycle

Patiently waiting for results and the story of the Wyatt's box.

Does the Wyatt add much weight?

No, it might be a tad heavier than the original, but probably only a fraction of an ounce.

OK, here's the results from the range.

Load:
Berger 215gr Hybrid, moly'd
Win brass
CCI 200
RL-17, 49.0gr (START LOWER FOR SAFETY)
OAL 3.10"

Environmentals were 30F, 25.5 Hg, wind 2-7mph from 3 o'clock, 4500' elevation.

Rifles were:
Rem 700 308 varmint, 20.5", HTG, MK4 3.5-10x40.
[Linked Image]

Rem 700 308 varmint, 26", A5, Super Sniper 16X.
[Linked Image]

I had 20 bullets. Ended up shooting five over the chrono, and fifteen at 100 yard target, three groups of five.

Chrony F1 results at 30 feet from muzzle:

20.5" - 2508, error, 2503

26" - 2602, 2605

The error was followed by a low battery indicator (I think from the cool temp). I had to warm up the 9V battery in my pocket then reset the chrono and shoot through it quickly.

Accuracy results:

First group, 20.5" rig, five shots were 2" horizontal, and .5" vertical. All holes looked like good stability. The horizontal spread is probably my form being a little ganked up, bipod too low. But hey, I shot it, so I'll own it.

Second group, 20.5" rig, five shots in a round pattern .84" wide by .86" tall, .96" furthest center to center. That's a solid sub-moa. I had elevated the bipod and tightened up my position.

Third group, 26" rig, five shots in a fairly round group, one called flyer high. Group .30" wide by 1.1" tall. Minus the called flyer the remaining four went into .30" wide by .58" tall. That shows potential for consistent .5 moa accuracy.

[Linked Image]

That was all twenty shots. I had hoped to take it out to 1200 yards or so with five rounds, but my first five-round group was so schitty I decided to unphuck myself and try again.

Per yukonal's post, a jump of .015" would likely improve accuracy a bit.

I'm still shooting the 208 AMax as my go-to bullet. But since Broz handed me 20 of these 215s to try out, I wanted to document and share my findings.

For S&G, here's a traj table for the 215 out to a mile, with a MV of 2600 fps, el 4500':

Code

Gunsite altitude : 4500 ft.
 Bullet           : .308, 215 gr, Berger Hybrid
 Ballistic Coefficient(s) (G1): .696@V>0 fps;
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Range  Velo Time of  Energy   Path    Deflection    Total  Sight correction  Target
        city  flight            to    at crosswind    drop   for setting new   lead
                                LOS    of 10.0 Mph             zero range     20 fps
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
�Yards   fps     s    ft.lbs.   in.    in.     MOA     in.   Clicks     MOA     yds �
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|    0  2600  0.0000   3227    -1.9    0.0   -----     0.0   ------    -----    0.00
X  100  2491  0.1177   2963     0.0    0.4    0.38     2.6      0.0     0.00    0.78
|  200  2385  0.2397   2715    -3.7    1.6    0.75    10.8     +5.1    +1.74    1.60
|  300  2282  0.3684   2485   -13.5    3.9    1.25    25.1    +12.5    +4.29    2.46
|  400  2181  0.5036   2270   -30.1    7.4    1.77    46.2    +20.9    +7.19    3.36
|  500  2082  0.6447   2070   -54.0   11.9    2.28    74.6    +30.0   +10.32    4.30
|  600  1986  0.7912   1883   -85.6   17.4    2.77   110.7    +39.6   +13.63    5.27
|  700  1892  0.9437   1709  -125.5   23.9    3.27   155.1    +49.8   +17.12    6.29
|  800  1802  1.1069   1550  -176.0   32.4    3.86   210.1    +61.1   +21.01    7.38
|  900  1715  1.2797   1405  -238.0   42.5    4.50   276.5    +73.4   +25.25    8.53
| 1000  1632  1.4609   1271  -311.9   54.0    5.16   354.9    +86.6   +29.79    9.74
| 1100  1551  1.6498   1149  -398.4   67.0    5.81   445.8   +100.5   +34.58   11.00
| 1200  1474  1.8458   1038  -497.8   81.2    6.46   549.7   +115.1   +39.61   12.31
| 1300  1401  2.0538    938  -614.3   97.5    7.16   670.7   +131.2   +45.12   13.69
| 1400  1334  2.2743    850  -750.2  116.0    7.91   811.2   +148.7   +51.17   15.16
| 1500  1272  2.5048    772  -905.5  136.2    8.67   971.0   +167.6   +57.64   16.70
| 1600  1214  2.7456    704 -1082.2  158.3    9.45  1152.1   +187.7   +64.58   18.30
| 1700  1163  2.9984    646 -1284.1  182.5   10.25  1358.5   +209.6   +72.12   19.99
| 1760  1135  3.1549    615 -1417.4  197.9   10.73  1494.5   +223.5   +76.89   21.03

Interesting that it stays super to a mile and surprised on "only" 77 MOA.

Of course everyone knows you need more than a 308 to shoot to 400....

Ya need Broz to cough up a few more in the interest of science.

I'll probably look for a box of them, to test further out.

1800 fps at 800 yds. Hard not to like that. You could even hurt something with that load!

Yeah, 215gr/1800 fps/1550 ft-lbs, at 800 yards, is bringing it.

Drift/drop numbers are nice too.

I know, there are better choices than the 308 for 800 yards. But, if you have a 308, and optimize the load, it can deliver some respectable performance. Far more than the benchmark FGMM 168grSMK @ 2650 fps.

Would you see much gain in performance in seating longer if you had a long action? Do you have the neck length and bearing surface or are you about at your limits within reason? Still kicking ideas around on what to do with my long action 700. It would probably be better served as a 30/06 or opened up to 300 win but I did talk to the smith about building a 308 on a long action a few weeks ago for a friend, just never thought I would entertain the idea. Also does your elevation help with stability? I would be real close to sea level, 800' to 1600', so faster twist is what I had in mind even if I went with the faster chambering.

We need some 180s n 6.5mm

Pretty awesome MM.

Have you ever shot the Sierra 190gr MK's? I picked up a .308 but I can't find the 208's anywhere.

Travis

Suicycle, A long action would be great for a 308 loaded to 3.1" oal. In my short action, there's no way 3.1" will fit a magazine, not even a Wyatt's. In fact, at 3.1" oal, I cannot eject a loaded round without releasing the bolt stop.

I've mulled chambering a long action 308, but to me the long action just makes the 30-06 a no-brainer.

With the 215 Berger, 3.1" oal puts the juncture of the boat-tail and bearing surface right about at the bottom of the case neck. The Berger 215 Hybrid is 1.62" long. In direct comparison, a 220gr Sierra Matchking is only 1.48" long.

Elevation (air density) is a component of bullet stabilization. The 215 being stable at 1/12 twist/2600 fps here at 4500', may not be stable at all at lower elevations.

If you had a 1/10 twist barrel, stability should be a non-issue at any reasonable velocity. If you were thinking subsonic loads, then 1/8 would be the right choice.

Travis, Yes I've shot a few thousand of the 190 SMKs in my earlier days with the heavy 30-06 and 308.

They were super accurate in both. When my heavy 30-06 was new, I was loading the 190 to 2900 fps via moly, RL22, and a 26" bbl.

My 308 load was 45gr RL15, Win brass, moly'd 190. That was consistent accuracy around .5-.7 moa, and 2650 fps from a 26" factory Rem 1/12 barrel.

The BC of .53 is not horrible either, but I was drawn to the 210 Berger for more BC, and eventually ended up at the 208 AMax for the great price, and quality.

Shane, have you seen or tried the Matrix 210 VLD? They supposedly have a BC of .752.

No I haven't tried the Matrix. The numbers look awesome.

Originally Posted by MontanaMarine

Travis, Yes I've shot a few thousand of the 190 SMKs in my earlier days with the heavy 30-06 and 308.

They were super accurate in both. When my heavy 30-06 was new, I was loading the 190 to 2900 fps via moly, RL22, and a 26" bbl.

My 308 load was 45gr RL15, Win brass, moly'd 190. That was consistent accuracy around .5-.7 moa, and 2650 fps from a 26" factory Rem 1/12 barrel.

The BC of .53 is not horrible either, but I was drawn to the 210 Berger for more BC, and eventually ended up at the 208 AMax for the great price, and quality.

Thanks MM. I just tried two loads with TAC. Three were going sub-MOA but the last two shots opened things up. I think TAC was wishful thinking though. I'm glad RL 15 worked for you because that and Big Game were my next bets.

Have a Merry Christmas.

Travis

Thanks Shane.

Good info...

Please excuse me if my questions are dumb, but is his elevation helpin him stabilize bullets with that twist? I have a remington 5r with a 1-11.25 twist and was wondering if these would work at 500 to 1000ft above sea level in my 308.

Down here in NGA and TN we are close enough to sea level to have dense air. That is hard for bullets to fly through, he will get free velocity at his elevation because of the thinner air. Max, and I mean MAX loads in a 270 when a local smith left the Colorado School of Trades that were fine there were blowing primers in the same rifle here. Elevation along with velocity will help stabalize bullets. Look at bergers site and you can put in bullet length and elevation along with speed and figure out what will be good and decent and nogo according to them.

Elevation is always 'free performance' regarding LR.

The only way to really know if 215s in a 1/11.25" twist will work in your locale is to try it.

Here's an interesting blog post regarding shooting heavy bullets in a 1/13" twist 30-06.

http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2010/06/ballistics-heavy-bullets-in-113-twist.html

Good article. Seems like he is throwing a knuckle ball at first, but the test shows different.

Ill be buying a box of 210 or 215s today

Interesting results Shane.

I asked Berger what they'd recommend out of the '06 I'm building, and they mentioned the 185gr Hybrid for 1000 and the 230gr Hybrid for 1000+. The price of those buggers has me leaning 208gr Amax though.

clark'

You might look into the Hornady 225gr BTHP too. They are not badly priced, and my results shooting them out to 1200 yards indicate a BC of about .710. That has been reported by other 225 users at the 'hide as well. Hornady advertised BC is .670.

Well I picked up a box of 210 grain hunting vlds today. Hope to get them loaded up and send them downrange tomorrow

I had good luck with the 210s in my 1/12 twist 308. They were consistently under 1 moa.

Here's a crazy group I shot one day with the 210s. No I don't usually stack them like this. Had a flyer on the last shot.
, still about .75 moa.

Five rounds, 100 yards.
[Linked Image]

My Berger reloading book says starting load for the 210vld in .308 with rl17 is 38 grains and max load is 42 grains.....

That seems like it's gonna make for some extra slow velocities, especially with my altitude?

Seems like a very modest load to me, but I load them long, and moly up for an easier start. Plus my Rem has a lot of throat/freebore.

That Berger load is likely dummied down to the lowest common denominator, which I suspect would be M1A port pressure.

High elevations only provide "free velocity" downrange. Makes no difference in muzzle velocity. Sure does make a difference beyond 400-500+ yds though.

Got 15 of the 210 hunting vlds loaded up with rl17 starting at 42 grains up to 49 grains in .5 increments so I can find when pressure starts.

oal is 3.007 and they are .010 off the LANs

With 1/2 grain increments at the top end with the .308 case capacity, it could get ugly

Recommend .3 or .2 as you approach (start .3 increments about a grain or 2 under) a "suspected" MAX

jowens-you might wish to take a look at the Reloader 17 web site to see how you're sitting. If I recall the top end 180 load is 48.7 grains of 17.

Dober

Originally Posted by MontanaMarine

clark'

You might look into the Hornady 225gr BTHP too. They are not badly priced, and my results shooting them out to 1200 yards indicate a BC of about .710. That has been reported by other 225 users at the 'hide as well. Hornady advertised BC is .670.

You think it would be worth tinkering with over the 208gr Amax?

Not really any practical gain in ballistics over the 208, unless you are going for the furthest possible supersonic range. Even then it's not much difference.

When I see these new LR bullets, I just have to try them out.

I can't help it, it's just who I am.....grin.

I hear ya. I really want to shoot the Bergers, but dang they're pricey!