The tools I have:

Rifle: Kimber Montana 223. Twisted 1:9
Scope: SWFA SS 12x42 Mil Quad/Mil clicks. In Talleys.
Bullets: 69 Matchking and 70 VLD

Suggestions on taking this set-up to 1000?

Just got the scope in yesterday, and it feels like a dang telescope over the 2-8x32 CDS Leupold that sits on there. I'm hesitant to use it, but I'm just not sure a better deal for a reliable long range scope exists. $299 is tough to beat, even if I just use it in the off season to play. No doubt it doesn't fit the little Montana, but I'm not sure there are any svelte scopes with a Mil reticle and enough travel to take me to 1000.

Looking forward to hearing tips from others who have taken a 223 to 1000.

Thanks!

1. Load a 75AM and hope it stabilizes.

2. Zero scope.

3. Dial dope for 1000 yards, make wind call, hold windage.

4. Pull trigger.

5. Adjust come-up/wind hold as needed.

6. Done.

If I could find a box of 100 to buy, I would try them. Can only find in a big box of 5 or 600, can't remember. Will have to see if the 70 VLD gets there.

Thanks for the steps Jordan. Will post here on my attempts.

It will, it'll just take a little more finesse in your wind call

My post was mostly TIC, but getting to 1000 with a .223 is no different than with any other rifle. It just takes a little more skill in the wind, than more slippery bullets started faster.

Does the rifle feel silly with a 20+ oz scope on it?

My Kimber stabilizes the 75 grain Amax, and shoots them into little tiny clusters.

I would recommend buying the 600 count....if you decide you don't like them they will sell via the classifieds in about 5 seconds.

Getting a 223 to 1000 is no big feat; though it isn't my first choice when the wind really gets to whipping.

Have not mounted it yet. Really just got the scope to try playing out at long distance steel gongs. I figured for $299, hard to go wrong. And if I don't like, it seems to be a well respected scope that resells fairly well.

Yep. That.

1K is a breeze and there's lotsa ways to get there.

6x Fixed [bleep] on a Montucky 7 Whizzum and it do nice thangs to 2000yds ++.



'Nother on a 18.5" 1-8" Rock barreled 223AI and it'll reach a mile.



In fairness,C-Note now wears Leupie DD's to retain the 6x Fixed [bleep].

I'd say sell that fugg'n scope and stick with something more appropriate for the chassis. Oh, wait...

You'd set on your kchunt and put colored water in your Super Soaker,as a best case scenario.

Oh...wait.

Laffin'!

Yes, it's for sale. Too much scope for the Montana in my opinion. Anyone want it?

Going to go with either the a Weaver grand slam tactical or a Leupold Mark AR Mod 1. Both one inch tubes, both Mil/Mil, both can get me to 1000 using reticle and clicks.

Tough to get giddy about a paltry 5 Mils of vertical on the reticle...just like it's always been tough to get giddy about.(grin) 1K ain't beginning to happen,with 5 Mils. Hint.

The Mark AR is one I'd not trust to track(the two I've shot,didn't) and Weaver's best pitch remains a fixed T-Series. The T's are best suited to Light Duty affairs and their parallax adjustment do no favors in the field,as Utility Killing Rifles go. Just sayin'.

A 6x42 will reliably get a SAAMI 223 Montucky to 1K,as will a 3.5-10x,both/either wearing LW's. DD/Signatures sweeten the pot,if only obviously.

Hint.



I've hated regular Mildots for decades now and would much rather Duplex/M1 things and happily MOA.

Food for thought...SAAMI 223 Montucky flingin' 75 A-Max smooches at 2940fps,via LW's and 1" 3.5-10x. With it's 225yd zero,it burns but 32MOA to the 1000yd line at sea level.




I'm not a fan of the 2-7X,but with LW's,you'll have fair to middlin' erector travel available to you. The 12x Fixed [bleep] do nothing for me in the equation,but I'd whirl a 6x Fixed [bleep] in a heartbeat,if only to drive it's killer reticle. Pun be intended.

69's suck heavy ass.

Hint.











Great WaPoozy,

You certainly get horned up easily and is tough on closets. One thing is for CERTAIN about you...when it's all said and done,there's going to be a LOT more said than done. Laffin'!

Bless your heart.

Looking forward to a fresh batch of Excuses,to accommodate your high-pitched nasal Whine.

Here's to your Imagination and to just how [bleep] badly you need it.

Laffin'!

Thanks for input boxer.

Currently have a VX2 2-7x33 with CDS dial that has tracked well for me.

Duplex reticle.

That set up get me to 1000?

65MOA of adjustment in that little VX2

Too [bleep] funny...The Great WaPoozy took her marbles and ran [bleep] home! I reckon the only move the Stupid Kchunt ever has,is to Delete,Punt and Run. Laffin'!

Anywhoo,let's continue the Theme ala 1" Leupie's to 1000 and beyond,via 223 Montucky.



You boys just might talk me into a Montucky 223 yet.(grin)

Just took out the 223 Montana with the 2-7 CDS. Have it zeroed at 100, still getting enough up in the CDS dial to get 32 MOA up for the AMAX or 40 up for the 70 VLD. Seems like that little scope will get me to ringing steel at 1000 if I can do my job with the wind.

CDS simply sucks heavy ass for all things...which won't take you too long to finger out.(grin) M1's so [bleep] rule.

Reservations in regards to the platform from there,would be in the 2-7X's erector tracking and in POA/POI shifts in the zoom selector's range. I'd go right to flogging on 100yd paper in nice atmospheric conditions(no wind) and make the tracking PROVE itself there,in beeg swings(from your 100yd zero to 1K,in say 5MOA increments) and shift power along the way,to really see WTF. I'd be wanting to see killer repeats and lineal movement from stat to finish. You can then factor those values and have better info on your LR dope,from the onset. Hint.

Hopefully she sings and you are there.

Appreciate the input. If she doesn't sing, maybe I build a Fix 6 with the M1, or a 3-10 with the M1. Don't much mind the CDS, nice little low profile turret. Just can't use gloves, and they do like to get twisty when spinning quick. Just killing steel here, no animals to harm

Do as Boxer says, but make sure to test POI fidelity when changing magnification in a separate operation from testing the elevation tracking. That way if you get POI's where they shouldn't be, it's easier to isolate the cause.

Ok question: If I don't plan to move the scope from 7x while shooting at longer range, what would be the reason behind testing POI when changing magnification?

I can fully understand running the CDS to check the erector system (box text I assume?). How does changing up the magnification on a variable power if I don't plan to shoot long range with any less than the upper magnification?

Have the feeling I'm behind the curve on some of this. Willing to learn.

As a secondary question: Why no love for the Mil Dot? It seems like a great way to "gain" elevation in a scope with limited travel in the erector system. Again - am I behind the learning curve on this? Take a one inch tube scope, add a Mil Dot, and it seems like a great combo to keep a rifle light AND have the tools to stretch it for fun. Can use a combo of Mils in the reticle and clicks in the erector to ring steel out long. Yes? No?

I would've kept the SWFA scope around for long range play, mounted in QR mounts and zeroed for the 75 grain Amax. Another set of QR rings would house a Leupold 6x or whatever slender scope I chose zeroed for hunting/varmint loads. Schit can the CDS scope.

I couldn't argue against gluing or taping the zoom selector to 7x on that glass,as it'd actually help thangs out. You prolly won't,so it's prudent to shoot it at differing zoom levels,to see how schit wanders in POA/POI intersections. That with and without ele erector input. You'll learn sumptin' there,whether good or bad...but at least you'll KNOW. Lotsa glass shifts impact,due just a zoom change and NO erector input. Hint.

A "box test" is a [bleep] joke,unless your box is say 40MOA x 40MOA. I never did understand the fascination with a coupla "clicks" here and a coupla "clicks" there,as a means of quantification. Modest moves,will tell you nothing. Hint.

Lotsa ways to skin a cat,but I always start at the azzhole.(grin) I wanna see lineal shifts in say 5,10,15,20,25,30,35,etc. increments,less any sideways shifts,flat spots and an absolute repeat to zero.




A 5 Mil ele bump isn't gonna hurt,nor really gain in this application...so give me an uncluttered windshield to drive with for Utility. Doubly so,when talkin' archaeic Dogface or Jarhead 'dots. Their greatest strength is for windage holdoffs and that approach is viable,though I'm more than a bunch comfy with a "lowly" Duplex there.

Now back to the SWFA Fixed [bleep],their mil scale designations are farrrrrrrr more fine than the Dog/Jar 'dots and reliably open windows of opportunity,due that marked improvement. The tick marks and stadia thicknesses,allow one to hold harder and subtend more accurately. Win/win.

I'd MUCH rather drive a Duplex/M1/MOA system,than a Dog/Jar 'dot and Mil/Mil. There ain't enough Mil substension value on the reticle to really make a [bleep],it's coarse by design and all the glass you cite is SFP,which is yet another can of changing worms in conjunction,with the above limitations. Fixed glass is ohhhhh soooooo soothin' and nothing is warmer/fuzzier.

Conjoin that with a CDS-ish BDC ala the AR and you've got Goat [bleep] sewed right up.(grin)

Thinkin' I'm gonna slam a 6x Fixed [bleep] on a 223 Montucky,beings you boys shamed me into it.(grin) The Reticle alone will reach 1K,due it's breadth of holdoff and finite-ish nature and there's (2) 2-7X's worth of erector travel in the elevation to boot. As I mentioned,C-Note(18" 223AI/75'Max) will reach a mile easily,when wearing same. Gotta another new 6x Fixed [bleep] setting in the box at the house,waiting for me to get there and I was gonna poke it on a Dick Rifle,but may do different in the name of R&D.(grin)

Your best first move is to PROVE whatcha' got,KNOW what it do,don't do and more importantly why and you'll be peeling that glass offa there in a hurry. Hint.

Funny how it actually works.(grin)

I'm wheels up bitches,for a 2 week Cast & Blast.

My first choice in the wind at 1000 is 90jlks. 80s would be right behind that. JLK also.

But most guns won't stabilize a 90. But the 90s have won me a lot of chit over years of 600-1000 yard highpower matches.

What twist do you need for those?



Travis

Hard to argue this. Its the reason why I wanted to give the SS a try. Too big for the Montana. Thought about going QR rings, but it really just overwhelmed the rifle. If Leupold would build a 10x fixed without the dang AO (give me a side focus knob please) then I would jump. Or maybe Sightron take the fixed 10 and move it to a 1 inch tube to lose some weight. Keep the Mil/Mil.



I get where you are coming from on this. The 5 mil only gets you a little less then half of the elevation needed to 1000 for the 223/75AMAX zero @ 100. Bump up the zero if you want, but still needing to touch the turret. In this instance I see the use for a reticle like the Mil-Quad with more Mil of elevation to use. Or forget the dots all together and get to cranking with a reliable scope.

I just thinking having some dots in the windshield for windage is worth it. Read my splash, adjust a known amount vs "scoot" over the duplex and try again. Even more so with a 223. Maybe a heavier wind splitting caliber can be easier to play windage at 1000 with a duplex.

223 Rem, 20 inch tube, takes 6.5 twist to stabilize. Can shoot down to 52/53 in it also, with a few varmint jacket exceptions at times...

Of course larger round is more speed etc.... I wished I recalled, there were some folks shooting out of 22/6mm many moons back, no clue what twist... I was thinking that 8 might have sufficed but 7 certainly would.

7 in my setup is marginal, gives nice groups, but slightly oblong barely noticeable holes at 300 yards already....

PS almost won our state palma match wiht that setup one year, finished 3rd fighting all the bolt gunners with their fancy rigs and nice easy to see sights... won 800 and 900 wiht an AR service rifle outright. Lost the whole chit at 1000 due to elevation issues of me not being able to see well enough to hold elevation at 1000...

Next day beat David Tubb in the 600 yard match same setup.

Of course a blind hog does find an acorn now and then. I"ll admit to that. And his 6xc and Tubb 2000 was fairly new to him at that point.

They're using the room inside the 30mm tube to accommodate a large adjustment range.

I loaded up some 90gr SMKs for [bleep]-n-gigglz some years back.

I pushed them through my Colt 1/7 20" AR15. They were accurate and stable at 400 yards.

I shot 90 grain Berger VLDs from a Brux 8 twist 22-6mm. They stabilized fine.

Thats because the BC IE shape is differnet and allows the stabilization.

I ran a LOT of figures on 223, nothing else, and NO other 90 was worth the hassle, if you ran anything other than 90 jlk, then you were better off to push the 80 jlk hard.

PS thats good info on the 22/6mm post RE stable, IIRC the bergers are the same issue, easier to stablize by just a bit.

'Ag,

I do LOVE me some feexed glass,but noone HATES moveable rings,more than I. ALL QR's suck ass. Gimme max ring spacing and bloody knuckle Tightitude on all. Rifles shoot loose,they don't shoot tight. Hint.

Leupie has long built 10x Mildot side focus feexed glass,though in 30mm.



I prefer the Fixed [bleep] parallax adjustment locale,fore of the ocular. Really love it on 6x glass,due the fact that adjustments is sooooo seldom required.

[bleep] Sightron,they are dog schit junk,same goes Vortex.

I whistle 75's to 1K and beyond,daily,with Duplex upon 1" tubes and am prolly hip on the notion.(grin) Lotsa ways to steer wind,beings it's VooDoo. The main thang bein' you simply gotta shoot in it,to LEARN it. Hint.

5 Mils with the above cited 75 'Max in a SAAMI 223,is a 10mph full value correction at the 1400yd line(sea level). If only for conversation. Lotsa ways to use a Duplex there,if only obviously.

You want a 6x42 non-A/O wearing M1 ele and if it soothes you,opt the Mildot reticle in conjunction.



I gotta bolt up yet another 6x Fixed [bleep] I just carved outta it's wrapper.(grin)










'495,

Pass the A-Max and hold the fluff.










Shane,

You sooooooo need a fast twist 223AI boltgun,so you can deal upper BC smooches.

It'd steal The Show,for FUN.

Hint.(grin)










'goat,

I've flung 'em outta my Krieger 1-7.7" 22-250AI 23.3" Dick Rifle.

Pass the A-Max.

Hint.

I'll get around to a 223AI one of these days. Hell I might just convert one of my 308s into a fast twist 22-250.

Saw this over on SH, a FF 6X Milquad for $225 shipped,


http://forum.snipershide.com/optics-sale/238292-ss-6x-mil-mil.html

Not anymore it'll be goin' on a 223 AI

Kewl....grin

Shane,

I shot it 7 times,after mounting the scope in a haste...to contend this HORRIBLE Kansas Winter Weather.

Bore-sighted it at 50yds and shot once. Doped the poke and shot another at 100yds. Doped it and gunned 3 touching at .4 Mils high. Then slung two pokes at the 1000yd line,just to confirm tracking...and my mind be at ease.(grin)




Schit be in DEEP DooDoo.(grin) I've 22.5 Mils remaining "up" in the erector with a 250yd zero,which is right atta mile,then there's the 10 Mils of padding in the reticle. 5 Mils of 10mph full value wind is the 1625yd line. Balls deep it's a 2000yd platform,as ele goes.

Prolly won't suck and I'd be curious to see what she'd do if'n it had been cleaned in the last 1500+ rounds.(grin)










Brett,

That'll teach me to jump offa plane,start opening Mail and go play with same.(grin)

GOOD thing you didn't linger.

Dyna Bore Coat?

I'm thinking moly and saltwater....grin

yea Moly...

Boxer,

The rifle it's going on is sitting in a classic and I can't decide how to mount it (talleys, DD, or pic rail) don't have any on hand so it'll be a new purchase for the scope. you running Mediums or Lows on C-Note?

Looks like some nice weather up your way, but I know it can turn on a dime.

We're just now getting some typical winter, after a fairly mild start.

Ag,

Hold the Fluff,pass the moly and get outta the way.

In fairness,that Dick Rifle has quite a few more than 1500 pokes whistled through it,since "maintenance".

She mighta even got "hot" once.(grin)










Brett,

Which receiver are we talking,which contour and what's the application?

As a default,I like my glass as low as I can get it,on the average.










Shane,

As ambient temps go,it was 107 degrees warmer her at the house,than it were at work last week. If you count windchill...it's 135 degrees warmer. Now you wouldn't think a guy would be able to notice such things,butcha' do.(grin)

I'd LOVE to see a Gully Washer rain come crashing through,with Chinook winds,but piss flat blue skies ain't too hard to suffer.

It's rough.(grin)

Rem 700
#4
steel, targets of opportunity, deer

That's some big temp changes.

We've been here now going on 10 years in May. Coldest night I recall was -42 ambient, but it was pretty much dead calm. That's still cold.....grin.

The 'typical' winter temps here have a fair amount of variability. Not uncommon to be anywhere from 40s to -20s. I like the 40s better.....grin.

I'm shooting 70 VLD's out of a Tikka 1/8 Superlight.

COAL 2.298. Lots of jump out of the mag, but the VLD surprised me by shooting sub 4s.

RL15 is getting me 3,050 mv (26.0 gets 3,100)

2.5" high at 100, for a 250 yd zero, 32 MOA at 1000.

Brett,

Your's is essentially a stretched barrel version of C-Note and that ain't a bad place to be.

It's wearing Leupie DD Extended Low's now and that system has long been stalwart and happily suffered abuses,that it prolly shouldn't have. Beings a #4 in what I assume to be a non-EDGE Classic ain't gonna be a Flyweight,it'd be tough to argue against DD sanctity. It's a 2oz peace of mind,as a worst case scenario. Never have puked DD's in 30yrs of tryin' to.

It'll sing and I'll be curious to hear your 6x Fixed [bleep] thoughts and I hope you hate it,so I get first crack at it.(grin)

That glass has sooooooo much available "up" in the erector,that I've zero qualm in the application going Leupold rings. They are tougher than the Burris version,because their fasteners are vastly superior and fend tough weather better too. In a Rimfire application,I'd happily go Signature,so as to eek all the ele possible. On a centerfire such as you cite,Old School is warm/fuzzy.

The reticle alone will make you famous.(grin)

You done good Glasshoppa.










Shane,

There weren't no bugs at work.(grin)

Waiting on a pard to show...so I can go stretch a few platforms out and mebbe make a recon cast or two.

Zero wind,currently.

Will try to make strides tonight,to get my Super Sleeper Tactical Lever Gun barkin',just to see how she'll do at 1K and beyond. Gonna be a hoot!(grin)










'35,

I've massaged a few TikTac 223 mags for Kisstitude and remain suplized,that someone hasn't made a good mag for them pieces of schit.

Most my throats are kissing the 75 A-Max in a 2.450"-ish realm,though I've a Linda Lovelace that kisses at 2.515"...which is no thang to arrange in a steel box.

Yeah, I stare at that stupid mag trying to figure out what to with the silly thing. How to modify for the 75 Amax of which I have 300.
Kissing the lands, I'm at 2.475 and that is where I pretty much load the 75 Amax and single load them. And they are accurate too, shooting the the same POI of the 70's.

Boxer,

It's a standard fill and 21" barrel.

18.5 your new favorite? I've been thinking about cutting this one down around there, thinkin' I'd like it.

Link to Tikka mag modification thread...

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/4799758

'35,

I did a TikTac 223 Mag COAL increase Thread,here many moons ago. Cain't know where it went.

Hard to get giddy about plastic schit.

A 2.475" 75 'Max kissin' throat,is rather versatile...I've more than a few.










Brett',

21" remains my favorite. If you are gonna drive a Quietener,losing length be appealing.

I'd greedily take 18.5 over 24".(grin)










'NZ,

I beat TikTac COAL conversions about,prior to that.

Plastic guts ain't ever soothin' and here's a fresh refresher,on why the schit sucks.

Been failed for a spell.




In finished form,she's gonna flat [bleep] shine and upset the cart.




Noone will see 'er coming.(grin) A guy can do some nice things with a Skookum Tommyhawk,60 grit and enthusiasm.

Blued/Walnut is soooooooooo where it's at.

Laffin'!

Looks like you were a little to aggressive with barrel break in.

I'm searching the Tikka mag alteration.

You planning on 'walking it down' or 'riding it down' on a 4 wheeler??

Update:

Started the 1000 yard 223 process by loading some 75 AMAX

I backed off .010 from the lands. Still a light crush fit.

25 gr Varget

Not great 100 yard results. 1.5 inch group.

Back to the reloading bench tomorrow. Loaded that long I'm not in the mag- loading single shot.

It'll get there with more aplomb than you'd ever guess with the right bullets...

Ain't nothing but a mini 308.... you can't argue with BC of well over 5 and MV well into the 2700-2800 range....

75 amax will not be your best friend in this endeavor. At least not in a standard 223.

Beware loose tips or missing tips.

And they have had bad lot numbers of them from years ago. I had more than 5000 replaced once, that were not pointed up sufficiently and the accuracy was not there with that batch.

I like the amax for the short range stuff though, from 200 to 600 yards they do well enough, not the best, but well enough.

Appreciate the advice. Going to try some 70 VLD tomorrow.

Just loaded a few VLDs. Will let you know how they shoot in the morning.

rost what .224 bullet are you talking about with a over .500 bc?

90 JLK unless my memory is wrong. maybe it was high 400s...?

Its been a few years since I did all the math, seems my numbers showed that wahtever JLK decided for BC was about 40ish points low by drop figures, IIRC it was 560 and I was thinking by shooting it more like 520/530

just googled some stuff and Clint Greenwood who tried them after I started using em says BC was from 560 to 590 depending on who you ask...

Having won more than a few matches with em they are sleek...

Didn't know that a .224 was available with such a high BC, were they finicky to load for?

Twist?

6.5 twist, not at all finicky in my guns. Even with a 7 twist where they were slightly unstable they shot at MOA basically with the first loads ever tested and I was totally in the dark load wise with N500 powders.

They did shoot best engaged and thats not always the case with all bullets and you have to chase rifling as the rifle ages but thats all pretty common.

Thanks....I have an 8 twist so the 90's are a no go, but I may try the 80's!

Where to go from here...



Starting in upper left and going clockwise, these are four shot groups with the 70 VLD following the VLD seating depth instructions. All are with Varget, Fed primers and Lapua brass.

Nothing spectacular. This is a light weight rifle, no I'm not sitting around letting barrel go completely cold between shots. Might play with group on upper right as I think the flyer was on me.

Thoughts from those who have used VLD bullets?

100 yard groups?

Yes, 100.

With that, I'd say you'd be lucky to hit a 4x8' sheet of plywood @ 1000 yards.

I would try to get my hands on some 75 Amax's. If you have bullets to trade for them, post an offer on the "Bullet Exchange" thread on the Reloading Forum.

OOOps, sorry just saw your post on the Amax's. If you have a quantity you want to get rid of, let me know.