LONG RANGE??? - 24hourcampfire

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Heard from a guy on another forum about shooting deer at long range. Now, I'm thinking 400 yards. NO! 500? Hah! He's talking over 750 yards! This is a sport?!
 
 When did deer become a bullseye on an oversize benchrest range? For crying out loud. If you got these sniper fantasies, then join the freaking military!
 
 The idea of hunting is to get as close as you can, not shoot from the next county. You try to be a part of the environment, you blend in. YOU BELONG THERE. Deer are a precious natural resource, and deserve to be treated with care and respect.
 
 I've been hunting for over 25 years, and in that time, I've lost two. Both times, it took a few days for the sick feeling in the pit of my stomach to pass. I just felt horrible because I knew those deer would suffer a lingering death. If you don't get that same feeling on loosing one, do me and the deer a favor and shoot paper.
 7mm

Now 7m/m old bud calm yourself or you are going to rupture something. I happen to agree with you but not every body does. There are some that can shoot deer in the next zip code and do it right regular I am sure. What we got here is one of those can/should issues. Just because you can do a thing should you do it? This gets into ethics and most every body has a slightly different set that was put in them or they adopted. If you and me was raised different does that give us the right to call foul on somebody else as long as what they are doing is legal. We ain't going to do it and we might not appreciate any body else doing it either but we can't stop them or hinder them. Just got to live with it don't we?
 BCR

DON'T go to Saeed's Site and read the Match King thread,it would snap you. Over 1000 posts on it,thus far.............

7mm
 I mostly agree with you. Our grandparents were bringing home the meat on a regular basis with inferior guns because they could hunt. Not because they could shoot. Many people today spend so little time in the woods that they have no idea how to hunt. For them, the ability to shoot at long distances is needed if they plan to bring any meat home. Others are good hunters and good shots and do a little of both. Of those that I know who regularly take deer at extreme ranges, they do it often and talk very little about it. They certainly don't try to get others to try what they are doing. They also pick and choose when to shoot at long range as to increase their chances of a clean kill. I have found most(not all) of those talking about shooting long ranges couldn't tell the difference between 350 and 700 yards.
 
 Personally, I try to get as close as I can. I have yet to feel the need for a shot over about 450 yards. I have had the oppurtunity to shoot at much longer ranges, but never felt I had to. For me the killing is really secondary. The hunt is what I crave.
 
 I just hate to see those people who get the latest "flat shooting laser beam" and think they can now shoot at stupidly extreme ranges. I have seen their injured deer left to rot because they weren't going to walk that far to see if they hit it if it didn't fall before their eyes.
 
 I myself prefer to target shoot at the range, and hunt the animals.

It just galls me, because I was raised on "speed beef", usually procured through "less than sporting" means. Venison was and is a very big part of my diet. Seeing them go to waste, even road-kill, bothers me. Kinda like just taking meat out of the freeezer and tossing it to the 'possums.
 
 At that kind of mileage, I seriously doubt that shots are followed up, and if they are, I doubt the deer is hit hard enough to be nearby. I don't see anyone (even SGT York) shooting that distance and not loosing quite a few. Not many guns without a lanyard carry enough umphhh at that distance to guarentee a clean kill. None that I want to stand behind, anyway.
 
 I have killed a few deer that had been hit and lost. Most of them had gang-green poison throughout and were just wasted. Gang- green or starvation dragging your guts behind you is no way for any creature to die, much less a deer. I found one last year with the jaw shot off. It was trying to get to its feet when I walked up on it, but was too weak. I really felt for that deer.
 
 I guess to me, it's a "willful waste makes wasteful want" deal. You only have to tag the ones you take out, and that's a shame. Some guys don't care if they crpple 10, as long as they get one, and that aint right.
 
 Do enough hunting and, sooner or later, you're bound to loose one. I realize that as a fact of life. Why push the odds?
 7mm

I come at this subject from the angle of hunters' ethics and the inherent, inevitable imperfection of marksmanship and bullet placement, where I'm completely at odds with a friend of over thirty years who thinks that shooting AT deer from 1,000 or more yards WITH A SINGLE-SHOT is sporting.
 
 NO ONE can be 100% certain that he can without fail put his bullet where it must go, at super-long range, to kill cleanly. Even bullets with "adequate" retained energy at those ranges, punching through deer at even shorter ranges and with "perfect" placement, often let deer escape over the ridge or into the brush and out of sight.
 
 Out here, "long range" typically means from one side of a canyon to the other. Putting a bullet across that space can take less than two seconds -- but GETTING over there to find and follow a blood trail can typically take hours. The help of a partner to stay where the shot was fired, to guide you with a two-way radio, is against the law in some states (still is here, I assume). But without it, shooting at a deer from such a distance is (IMO) utterly irresponsible -- you can't be sure you'll know the right spot to be looking for sign when you get over to where you think "there" is.
 
 No one owes it to a game animal to shoot it. But once you shoot it, you owe it to that wounded animal to finish it off as quickly and as humanely as possible. It is simply not sporting, in any sense of the term, to discard or ignore this responsibility as a fundamental decision in adopting a hunting method or procedure.
 
 And yes, I do shoot prairie dogs at 500 yards and possibly farther -- with a powerful rifle and cartridge that blows 'em to tiny pieces with any hit. Game animals and varmints are different categories that require different responsibilities of the shooter. I don't ignore a wounded gopher or prairie dog -- I finish it off ASAP if I can.
 
 I once watched from a distance, with binoculars, as my "sporting" friend, who hunts only with single-shots, stayed seated in his pickup when a doe he'd just wounded with a .270 humped-up and ran into a coulee. He'd hit that doe with solid placement in the lungs. I doubt that she went much farther than 100 yards, if that far. He went to another spot and shot another deer. When this one fell, he drove over to it and THEN got out of his pickup. I'm sure he doesn't cross any canyon and try to trail any deer he wounds from 1,000 yards away, on another mountain. I know he doesn't always kill with only one shot.
 
 I have to wonder how many other long-range deer-shooters (a) always kill with one shot, (b) get a second, finishing shot into any deer they've only wounded, or (c) bother to cross the canyon to find and follow the trail of wounded deer that they can't finish-off from their original shooting positions.
 
 I have my doubts.

Well, I should know better than to step into this pit, but when has that ever stopped me before?
 
 First, let me say that I rarely if ever shoot at a deer over 200 yards, this, in spite of the fact that I often hunt with a .308 which is quite capable of placing the shot and killing one at 500m, since I regularly shoot steel rams at that distance with it offhand, and with a rest it will easily hold under a MOA at 500m. And, I often have a laser range finder with me in the stand. Why do I restrict my shot's range, because personally, I prefer to KNOW, beyond a reasonably doubt, that when I pull the trigger that animal is dead, and pretty much near the space he was occupying. Have I missed my aiming point, yes, the animal moved as the shot broke, etc, but, luckily, I have not lost one yet. But it could happen, for sure.
 
 All that said, if someone has the equipment and knowledge to shoot animals at extreme ranges, I feel almost certain that their recovery rate is at least as high as the average hunters, and probably a good bit higher. If they approach it carefully and with the correct equipment and practice, I say, more power to them. Shooting across canyons, with the attendant poor chance of recovery would not be ethical IMO. But, shooting at a running deer in the brush at 50 yards isn't either, to me, and it is done every day during the season by many who would condemn the long range shooter. Boggy had it right, as usual, we might not do it, but condemning someone else's choices, solely on the basis of distance, is not with good cause IMO.

I am the person 7mmbuster is talking about.And yes we do shoot deer at range's that other people may find unethical.I limit myself to 1000 yard's.But I do know people that have cleanly taken deer and elk at over double that.What most people don't understand is.That we don't get out our gun's and shoot a couple of shot's at the range and go hunting.I shot over 1000 round's last year at different range's from 400 to 1000 yard's.I shot in different weather condition.No wind.Light wind.Heavy wind.I have drop chart's for different alitude's and tempature.I also have chart's for wind.I know where the bullet is going.And any deer up to 1000 yard's is in real big trouble.I am sorry some people do not agree with the way I do thing's.I just came over here to state my case.Good Day....Boyd....

My $.02: There are few people that can even come close to a deer at these ranges. Most of the folks I run into in the woods couldn't hit within 20 feet of the animal. Those who consistently can, know what they're doing. Is it sporting? That's in the eye of the beholder.
 
 Now, the topic was also introduced here of following up on your shots -- that's a whole other topic that is where my BIG beef lies with many hunters AND it has nothing to do with the range the animal was shot at. I can't tell you how many times I've heard "hunters" tell me of taking a shot and missing. I almost always ask if they went to the spot the animal was at and WAY TOO MANY times they say, "well, it didn't act like it was hit..." This pisses me off to no end!
 
 So, off the soapbox, if a guy is willing to follow up on a 1000 yard shot, then more power to him. Usually a hunter can get far closer in the terrain that I hunt, so if you are going to check for blood after the shot, why not take the shot closer?
 
 To me, this topic is quite similar to censorship. Who will the person be to decide what is acceptable and what isn't??? Correspondingly, wWho will be the person who decides what is too long and what isn't???

There are FAR more people that do it than you think.For one thing we never hunt alone.I normaly have three guy's with me.And as for following up shot's.We know where the bullet is going.Have you ever seen a bullet arch into a deer at 1000 yard's?With the optic's we use you CAN WATCH THE BULLET from the time it leave's the barrel until it reach's the intended target.So when we hit a deer or an elk or a bear at long range.YOU KNOW YOU HIT IT.There is no doubt about it.The only thing that is different from what I do.And the person sitting in a fence row waiting for a deer to walk out in the field to feed.Is that I'm shooting a longer distance.That's it......You have stated you case.And I thank you for being truthful.I have taken people with your same thought's hunting one time.And they were hooked.It is not for everyone.But with pratice and the right equiptment.It does become quite easy.

The older I get the less sure I am about any thing. A few things have held true however. It is more about how you take a deer (plug in your favorite critter here) than just taking one. It is more about what is fun and satisfies you than just putting meat on the ground.
 I don't think I am fit to tell anybody else how to have their fun as long as they observe the laws and common decency.
 
 Some find their fun by using a lazer guided bullet from the reverse slope of a hill and killing a deer way to hellengone over there.
 
 Take it the other way and there may be some who think the only way is to drop on one's neck from a tree and stab it to death with a self-chipped stone knife.
 It also just seems to be human nature, right or wrong, to believe that the way me and my friends do it is the only way it should be done. Much as we might try to be fair about it we kind of look down our noses at somebody who does it different.
 
 Also it seems to be that there is a powerful tendency to think that because I can't do a thing nobody else can, or should attempt to, do it either. Now when we stop to consider that we know it is wrong but it is there just the same.
 
 Hunting is a personal deal. I have never considered it to be a contest save between me and what I was hunting. It isn't between me and any body else just between me and the animal. Contests, to my way of thinking, should be on the target range not on the hunting grounds.
 
 Now the only person in this world that I have to live with is me. I don't take extra long shots on game animals because there are too many variables that I have no control over for me to be comfortable with it. Too much chance to wound and not recover and nothing I could do about it in reality.
 
 As I said I have to live with me. You have to live with you.
 
 Enough philose-- phylis-- phelisep-- BS for one morning.
 
 Selah
 
 BCR

To take a chance,(play), with a living thing as a target, when there is NO need, is asinine.
 Bring your charts, equipment, expertise and money. We will draw from a hat the day and time for you to shoot at a paper plate at 1000 yards, $100 a shot ten shots, move between shots. That way you have something to loose besides a spent round. -- no

Boyd,
 I have watched guys doing what you do and have to admit to being impressed. I also appreciate the fact that you would state your case without resorting to emotion or acidulent verbage.
 
 I have found, more often than not, that those suggesting that something is unethical have a big bunch of bones in their own closets. Most often they seem to be hung up on sour grapes.
 
 Not to suggest that anyone here would do this, but it always makes me wonder when I see the preachers coming out.
 
 Why don't you come around more often? I suspect you might have quite a bit to add to our discussions on a lot of topics.
 best to you
 art

need one.Do you know that a 8 inch group at a 1000 yard's is a big group.Do you know that the World record in the Heavy gun class is 3.151 inches for ten shot's.Do you know the light gun world record is 4.534 inches for ten shot's.Do you?I did'nt think so...For one thing the kill zone on deer is around 15 inches.Not 8 inches.As for taking your money.I do not need it.If you have a probablem with what I do.That is fine by me.I have been through this before...................Sitka Deer.I have been around people like (need one) for a long time.Yelling and name calling will not get it done.I will not resort to such thing's.I also feel that I don't have to prove myself to anyone.You have seen it done.So you have an understanding on how thing's work.People who talk like (need one)don't have a clue.

Art, -- I too think Boyd has much experience and could add to the campfire which has nothing to do with his ethitcs or priorties. Yes, I do judge when I have been hunting and shooting for many years and see what happens to the best of shooters and game in the field. There are too many things to go wrong with a long shot and a living thing on the receiving end. Play with paper, take responsible shots at game period. I don't trash my camping spots either, or leave ruts in the pasture or mountains. We need to police ourselves and someone needs to stand up and be responsible, the animals can't speak for themselves. Who am I to judge, A HUNTER. -- no

I think the only question here is: Is it hunting or just killing? Actually to me deer are just long legged rats ( is that sacrelegious) But I have to contend with about 25 of the buggers all winter destroying everything they can reach.I have no doubt Boyd can do as he says. I saw similar shooting way back in 58. A close friend use to shoot whiteail with a .38 Norma MAg at extreme distances. I couldn't for the life of me reason why someone needed such a big cartridge for a 150 lb deer I don't have any problems with this, just don't call it hunting.

Boyd:
 
 I am glad you dropped by too and would love to hear more of your methods and equipment. If you would, why don't you start a thread on them under Big Game, or Rifles, etc.
 
 Boggy,
 
 I am continually amazed at the understanding of humanity contained in and the readability of the homespun wisdom you post. I think your last post should be required reading in every hunter education course.

need one.Yes you may judge.But what you are trying to judge you have no understanding of.Yes thing's can go wrong.But they can also go wrong at 50 yard's.I have watched a deer for three hour's before a shot was taken.Why did I wait?I did not feel I could make a clean kill.There are some Long range hunter's that will take a less than IDEAL shot.But there are ALOT more short range hunter's who will take a shot at a running deer in standing timber at 100 yard's.And I'm sure you are one of them.When I shoot a deer at 600 yard's or 1000 yard's.I KNOW where the bullet will go.There is a Long Range Video on the market that was Made by a good friend of mine.Alot of people with your way of thinking have watched it.Most of them have changed their way of thinking.You must first have an understanding of something before you can judge it.Just my .02

saddlesore.Just don't call it hunting?What is hunting?Is HUNTING 20 guy's running through the wood's yelling.Chasing deer from their bed's.And make them run for their lives.For them just to run by someone at full speed while they are being shot at.IS THAT HUNTING?For some people it is...Is a person sitting in a blind waiting for a deer to come to the feeder a HUNTER?Some people think so.Is a person sitting in a tree stand waiting for a deer to come down the trail a hunter?Is a person sitting in a fence row watching a field and waiting for a deer to come out to feed a hunter?Let me know what your answer's are.......

Boyd, welcome to the campfire, first off. I don't agree with you, but different viewpoints are always welcome here. That's why this is the best sight on the web. We don't all agree, but we can always disagree without getting personal.
 
 I just can't see NEVER loosing one at that distance. You've said you've seen guys who didn't know they hit one at 100 yards, but you always know if it's hit at 1000. Must be by ESP. Yes, I've hit deer at 100 yards that didn't act hit. But checking after a shot is as much a part of shooting as taking the safe off. Many times I've killed deer at ranges of 100 to 300 yards, and literaly had to circle around to find them in the weeds or snow, even after watching them drop. But you never fail at more than 3 times the distance? I just have trouble accepting this.
 
 As to differnt methods of hunting, ie driving deer, baiting deer, and so on, that too is up to the guy doing it. I, myself do mostly still hunting, or by setting in ambush at a spot I know to be frequently used. I just don't enjoy driving deer, and baiting is about as ethical as using a light. But, again that's me talking. The truth is I don't care how anyone does it, even with a light, but you owe it to the deer to do it cleanly.
 
 I know some bow-hunters who ae very good shots at 50 yards, but will not shoot beyond 35 yards, because too many things can go wrong. I use a 30-06 and a 7 mm Rem Mag, and I practice out to 300 yards. Here too I seldom shoot beyond 200, because there's too much margin for error. I use a flintlock, and can consitantly hit at 100 yards, but again, I don't feel comfortable shooting over 60 yards.
 
 I apoligize if you feel that I have flamed you. That was not my intent. But I believe that when you pick up a weapon to hunt something, you owe it to that something to do it as cleanly as humanly possible. You're welcome to come down to Bedford and we'll hunt the moutain, and I'd love to try the long range shooting, but I have a real big hang-up about using deer as targets.
 7mm

Like I said you don't understand.With the optic's we use.YOU CAN SEE THE BULLET from the time it leave's the gun until it reaches the intended target.This is a fact...There is no esp.Another thing you fail to understand is.A deer shot at close range in the wood's or heavy cover will be out of sight within a few second's.We can see in most case's hundred's of yard's in either direction.So even if a deer does run 30 or 40 yard's or 200 yard's for that matter after being hit we can still see it.I alway's have at least two people watching the deer at ALL TIME'S.If a second shot is needed.The adjustment's are made and within 30 second's a nother bullet is on the way.At close range you very seldom get that second chance.You I feel are the kind of person who would have to see it first hand to understand how it is done.You are more than welcome to come to Lock Haven.And I will show you how it is done.I think you will feel a little different about it then.Any deer is a target.No matter if it's 50 yard's or 500.The only difference from what I do and what you do.Is I shoot a longer distance.THAT'S IT.

Glad to have you at the fire,Boyd.I'm old enough to remember that the old timers bragged about a long shot just as much as folks do today.If they'd had the equipment available today,there would have been just as many- probably more - taking 1000 yard shots,so all the talk about how they prided themselves on stalking instead of shooting is probably true of some individuals,but is so much " Boggy Philosophy" about hunters from the past.
 
 Boggy hit it on the head about the" I can't, so you shouldn't" syndrome.Just ignore the preachers and share some of your knowledge with us.

Thank's Gene.It is almost impossible to explain long range hunting to someone.I have taken people with me and they get as giddy as a little school girl who has a crush on a high school boy.The first time they watch a bullet arch in and hit something at 700 or 800 yard's they can't believe it.I hope I do have something to offer here.We'll see.

Your reception was MUCH warmer than mine,a couple years ago. Stick it out,it's worth the ride.
 
 Some very good folks here,open to different ideas................

Boyd,
 I've been watching this thread with interest. I have not personally seen game taken at the distances you mention but would be interested to see it. My personal "best", if you want to call it that, is a measured 284 yd 1 shot kill on a whitetail. I have seen other hunters make killing shots at distances up to 450 yds. I do not presume to condemn extreme range shooting, but would like to know the actual hit to miss ratio that the "typical" [Linked Image]

extreme range shooter realises. You may be capable of an 8" or smaller group, but what if, and has it happened to you, the animal moves as you squeeze the shot? Yes, I know many people can't hit the side of a barn at 20 yds & are more likely to wound a deer at that range than the dedicated long range shooter would at 500 yds, so no flames intended here. Just interested. badger.

Boyd, -- one question, which shot would have the best chance to succeed, one less than 300 yards or one past 600 yards? You, like others, trying to justify shooting at animals at ridiculous ranges, claim chalengers of not knowing anything about what or how you are doing it. BALONEY. Many of us have been shooting and hunting for more years than you are old. There is no sense in using a living thing as a target for your selfish pleasure when a paper or silhouette target would show the results, good or bad. You or no one else on this planet can tell precisely where a bullet will strike at a thousand yards. Yes you may have knowledge of reloading, and it's requirements for precision shooting and your rifle may be the best in the land, BUT, BUT, THERE ARE THINGS YOU HAVE NO CONTROL OVER. and you know it. At least the guys shooting at responsible ranges are doing their part to try and do the proper thing. A one inch miss of the center of a target at 100 yards is how much of a miss at 1000 yards. One step of an animal at the touch of the trigger is how much of a miss at 1000 yards. We may be dumb but not that dumb to think a chart can control the wind within a 1000 yards. There are just too many variables to justify shooting at game long range. When they develop the Ray Gun perhaps we can hunt that far.
 I am sure you have knowledge to share around this campfire and I am eagerly waiting to hear about your reloading and rifle experiences. Because some of us don't agree with the long range hunting never think for a moment we don't know anything about it. -- no

How are you doing Boyd?
 
 I joined the thing so I could post here.I think it was need one that said that people loose deer at 100y so how can we see our hits at 1000y.Has anybody that doesnt hunt LR saw another hunter looking through 30 power spotting scopes while hunting at any range?Has anybody ever tried it?
 As far as the wind goes,we dont take a shot if the wind isnt right.For a trianed person or someone that does it a lot,reading the wind out to 1000y isnt that hard.After that is where it gets fun...

needone.Have you ever long range hunted?Did'nt think so.How someone can be such an expert with something they have not done is Dutch to me.It take's alittle over 1 second for a bullet to make it to 1000 yard's.As for wind.If the wind is high.(Above 10 mph)we will shoot a spotter round at a stump or log 100 yard or so in front or behind the deer.We make the windage adjustment's needed.And the next shot WILL KILL THE DEER.The only difference between a 300 yard shot and a 600 yard shot is I have to put 57 more click's on my gun.Both will end the same way.Dead deer.....A one inch miss at 100 yard?That's a 10 inch miss at 1000 yard's.All my gun's shoot 5 shot group's in the .3 to .4 inch range.If I missed the bullseye (I USE THUMB TACK'S)by an inch at 100 yard's I would sell that gun.(BIG SMILE)....

Hi SealSniper.Not doing so well.I'm just trying to make some people understand.Look's like we might have another BILL T.Some people would have to see it done first hand to understand it.The battle rages on!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Thank's for joining.Could end up being another Matchking as a hunting bullet thread.....

I'm not a long range hunter by your standards but so far I haven't seen anything in any of your posts that is incredible.One thing that hasn't been mentioned but surely everyone who has posted so far must know it:
 
 An animal that is relaxed- and he should be at 1000 yards- will succumb much easier than one that is pumped up with adreniline.I'd guess,and it is just a guess,that a target type bullet under those conditions is going to be more effective than a " game" bullet on an animal that is pumped up.I use only game bullets,and I'm particular about them,but at 1000 yards I would use whichever gave me the best accuracy.I've seen excited deer run 200 yards with a solid lung hit,but never much farther than that.
 
 It's not my style,but to brand it as un-sporting is not justified.

Boyd, What for cannon are you using on these "targets"? What is the velocity remaining at that range? How can a shot in the guts at that distance be more lethal than one at 100 yards or so? I've seen gutshot deer go a 1/2 a mile before they lay down, and travel several miles when pushed.
 
 I can't believe a Matchking is deadlier at 1000 yards than a hunting bullet at 100 yards. A shot in the guts is a long day tracking, regardless of the range or bullet. And the slightest puff of breeze at that distance will put a bullet there instead of the vitals. You're lying to yourself if you believe otherwise.
 
 Gene makes some very good points that I hadn't considered. But this is where we disagree. Those are NOT targets, they are God's creatures and as such deserve some respect. And just because it's OK for some clown to cripple and loose them at short range, that in no way justifies taking such chances at longer ranges. I have no doubt that you are a very good shot, but it still isn't hunting by my definitoin.
 7mm

To be frank, with my 338-378, or my M1A and FN SPR 308's, I could reliably take deer at 1000 yds. That is if I thought of them as targets. I dont. I approximate that I have an 80% or 90% chance of killing a deer with a single shot at that range, but, as Mr Howell says "Good enough isnt". If I am hunting deer, its for meat. Punching paper is different and I do pleanty of that. There is nothing illegal or inherintly immoral about it, but I think that it might be unwise or irresponsible. Either way, I dont have anything against someone who hunts at that range as long as they can prove their abilities to me, but I would never teach or allow my children to shoot like that.

Who said it's ok for some clown to screw around and lose them at close range? Of course, most of those clowns won't be reading this either, tis a shame.

Dead is dead,it makes not one whit to me,as to how. That assuming it is done,with the focus on killing quickly.
 
 10yds - 1000yds. One is as easy for some,as the other..............

Post deleted by Darryl_Cassel

Darrel,
 
 I have copied your post and put it here so as to keep the thread continuous.
 
 Blaine
 *********************************
 
 
 Hello Boyd and Sealsniper
 
 How's things going over here?
 
 You seem to have some Non-believers or the usual "unethical" comments being said.
 
 Maybe I can shed some light on what I have read from other posters.
 
 Being probably the elder person around the fire tonight and on this forum, I can assure you that what Boyd speaks is VERY true and is being done more and more every year. You don't have to agree with it but, it is still a part of the hunting sport and becoming VERY popular.
 
 The problem with most old time or short range hunters as we call them, is that, they are set in their ways, and are NOT open minded to change.
 
 When I was intruduced to Longrange hunting in Cameron County PA many, many years ago, (Have not missed a buck season in 41 Years now) I was open minded and wanted to learn everything I could from the fellows I knew that had done this for so long. I tagged along and got a real education.
 Up to that point, I had hunted and killed game all ways and I still do, even bow hunting in my tree stand.
 
 After a trip or two with those LR boys I was hooked. Now I prefer longrange hunting to any type I have ever done in the past and have been VERY successful at it over the years.
 
 At 62 I can still climb the mountains quite well to retreive my game either in PA, West Virginia or Colorado where we LONGRANGE hunt and have for the last 13 years running, for elk and Mule deer. We kill at extended range on elk also and yes, we use MK bullets because we want the MOST accuracy and high ballsitic coefficient bullets we can get. By the way, they do open on game quite well at longrange.
 
 I won't even begin to tell you how far we have killed game because some of you won't even believe Boyds kills and he is relativly new to the sport. I am an old timer at it now and have killed a lot further then Boyd has to date. He will get to the longer yardages but, that takes time. I had the pleasure of meeting Boyd last year at Williamsport. He and Butch Keen came to my place in Driftwood just 2 or 3 weeks ago for a tour of our longrange area and my shooting area where we can stretch the bullet out to 3000 yards from my property.
 
 Anyone whot thinks we don't have the equipment to kill at extended range can think again. Our equipment list totals about $10,000.00 to $12,000.00 worth of needed items to make sure we do it right. By the time you invest in a Military laser Rangefinder $3000.00, a rifle that cost from 4 to 6 thousand dollars a good set of bigeyes (normally military ship binoculars) and all the other items needed, your wallet is empty for a while.
 
 We are not the 3 day a year hunter that grabs his rifle from the closet and goes hunting for 2 or 3 days and calls this hunting. We shoot all spring, and summer in 1000 yard matches at Williamsport ( My wife and I have missed only two matches in 14 years) and we also shoot woodchucks longrange all summer getting ready for big game. The animals are not targets to us, they are the same thing as they are to the short range shooter. A GAME ANIMAL. Our goal is to kill as quickly as possible as we all should strive for.
 
 A question was asked about energy at 1000 yards, lets go to 2000 yards to answer that.
 With my 338/416 Rigby IMP and a 300 gr SIERRA MK bullet coming out of my 37" barrel at 3310 FPS, I still have at 1000 yards --2101 FPS velocity and 2942 FPS of energy left. That's more energy by far then the 30/06 has with a 180 gr bullet at the end of the muzzle.
 At 2000 yards I still have 1266 FPS and 1068 FP of energy. Thats more then the 30/30 has at 100 yards.
 
 We hunt in teams of at least two and we have NEVER lost an animal yet in all these years..
 
 Gene Williams you were right on with your explanation concerning the RELAXED animal who never even heard a shot. When an animal is hit (lets say the middle of the rib cage) by a short range shooter, the animal hears the muzzle blast which in turn, turns on the adrenalin and he will run for ever because he has just had the hell scared out of him. When we hit that same animal in the same area, he NEVER heard a thing and will just lay down and die on the spot. They respond totally different and that's what the short shooter can't seem to understand.
 
 If anyone is still in doubt, think of all the arms companys that have tooled up to sell LR rifles such as the Sendaro, Larado, Sako Inter-continental and others. The longrange way is here and if we can help the new shooter/hunter to do it correctly, we will surely try.
 It's not for everyone but it sure is getting popular.
 
 If there are still any doubts get hold of Butch Keen at [email protected].
 Boyd has his phone number i'm sure. Butch has made a truly fine Longrange video that is 1 hour long. It shows the actual vapor trail of the bullet right into the animal and many one shot kills on deer in PA and West Virginia. I think his longest shot on the video is 1350 Yards. The tape is $20.00 or $25.00 and to those that doubt what we do, look at the tape and watch how it's done and then you may just get a better understanding.
 
 
 Pass the hot dogs please, the fire is about right for roasting now.
 
 Darryl Cassel
 PR and Information Officer
 The Original PA 1000 Yard Benchrest Club

Darrel, Boyd, Sealsniper,
 
 I'm glad to see all you guys over from "Long Range Hunting."
 
 There's nothing unethical or immoral about long range shooting the way you guys do it. If fact, there is nothing unethical or immoral about taking game animals by any legal means. Now there are "unwise" shots. That may be a 200 yd shot for the 20 round a year hunter, a 1000 yd shot when an experienced LR hunter is alone, or a 50 yd shot at a running deer in heavy cover by anyone. What is wise and unwise is highly dependant upon each person's skill.
 
 I find it amusing that many of the guys who bad-mouth ALL long range shooting don't think twice about swinging on a deer 50 yds away running flat-out in heavy cover. I am also tired of hearing about how "noble" these game animals are, etc. If we really thought they were that noble, we wouldn't be killing them. I also fail to see how taking a questionable shot on a deer or elk is "unethical," but taking a questionable shot on a prarrie dog, coyote, or bobcat is okay. This strikes me as very inconsistent reasoning.
 
 I do hope you stick around. Big Stick is right. When he first showed up, many gave him a hard time. I didn't give him a hard time then, but now I ocassionally find the need to do so.;)
 
 Blaine

Hello
 
 Thank you for the welcoming and the very good insight to hunter logic that has been expressed by some.
 
 We only want to show and help the new or older hunter how we do what we do and help them understand. If they truly want to try the longrange way they will be amazed at it.
 
 Thanks for transfering the post over.
 
 Darryl Cassel

AFP, Boyd,
 
 I am glad to see you guys posting about long range HUNTING. I am no where near your league, I am a mere piker compared to the both of you. Maybe, one day I will cleanly kill a deer at 1000 plus yards, I can hope anyhow.
 
 So far my best kill is 420 yards on whitetails (3 in the past 3 years). I do have my 300 win mag worked out to 650 yards and I use 180gr BT's at 3180 FPS with a 27 1/2" barrel. I know this is a POP GUN compared to what you guys use, but I am getting there, slowly but surely.
 
 AFP - I did enjoy reading your assesment of a deer being shot at 100 yards, that MUZZLE blast scares the living hell of of that deer, off he goes.
 
 I have seen deer look around at a shot of 300 plus yards. The noise is so far away and often times it is difficult to tell which direction the shot came from. This is one HUGE advantage of shooting deer at extended ranges, the noise simply doesn't scare the living hell out of them. You are quite right, they DO act/react quite different when shot at 100 yards versus at long range.
 
 I have killed plenty of deer at less then 100 yards. For those that say, you aren't a hunter if you can't get closer,,,,,,,well, I just laugh at that, lol. I decided of my own free will to go the longer range route. I do shake like a dog [bleep] razor blades so I have limited myself to 650 yards, thus far.
 
 I applaud your efforts and the dedication it must take to be capable of cleanly killing deer to 1000 plus yards. My hat is off to you.
 
 For those that don't beleive you or THINK in their narrow minds that you aren't hunting,,,,,,,let em think whatever they want. It's to bad that such narrow minded people exhist.
 
 Good Hunting ---------at long range.
 
 Don [Linked Image]

If Don had ever worked the pits he would know the bullet is there before you hear the shot. Back to school for you. -- no

Posted by 7mmbuster,
 "I myself do mostly still hunting, or by setting in ambush at a spot I know to be frequently used". What kind of sportsmanship is that if you are going to sit at a frequented spot, and ambush them..Jeez it almost sounds unethical:)Sounds like you are going into their living room. Does not sound like you are giving the deer a chance.
 Joking aside, I know quite a few marksman, and have no problem with them shooting longrange. It is all in the skill of the shooter to make that judgement, not you or I..There are a bunch iof things hunters do that could be considered unethical.Shooting past 35yds with a bow..Just shotting a compound is grounds for being unethical.Front stuffers using the in-line setup.I will guarantee you there are far fewer deer wounded by longrange shooters that know what they are doing, than some dumbass that shoot a box of shells, and says lets go hunting, shoots the deer in the gut,at 100yds and then blames the rifl. All this talk just ends up pissing me off, because you have no freaking idea how I shoot, how much I shoot, and how well I shoot it. Nor do I have the same info about you..Until someone tells me to quit making these long range killing shots, I think I will continue....I really do not know why you are grunting about longrange shooters, when you could have a lot more fun with the longrange bowhunters, and muzzleloaders. We could just bitch about them for hours...
 In closing I do not care if you hunt with a knife, bow, gun.I do not care if you shoot from 1"-1000yds, as long as you have practiced,and have the right equipment...DO IT!

Welcome aboard guys!
 
 You will see a wider range of folks here than on the longrangehunting site, but most all of us get along real well.
 
 No Bill T's but some strong opinions, you won't see the name calling or cussing from our regulars.
 
 It all boils down to the individual shooters skill level, equipment, and willingness to pay the dues required of learning a new skill!
 
 I consider hunting the act of pursuing wild game. Beyond that it doesn't matter to me if it is while holding a camera, paintball gun, dartgun, bow, muzzleloader, pistol, or rifle.
 
 Hang around and pull a log up to the fire, I think you'll find the best group of guys on the web!
 
 mike

Well maybe I spoke/typed too soon!!
 
 Do y'all remember the John Wayne movie were the kid comes out with a 1911 instead of a SA Colt, he also pulls out a crudely scoped bolt action instead of a model 94....same thing here technology is advancing our sport whether we like it or not, the human factor is still the weak link....
 mike

Lee
 Good to see that you have sense enough not to mention what you guys do with your sporter weight rifles. They would call you every kind of illegitamate bambino imaginable!
 
 Here in Alaska we have all kinds of folks wrought up in calling different gear groups names. Several here have touched on the ridiculous nature of shooting themselves in the foot in such fashion... they clearly have never been exposed to the righteous indignation of a PETAphile going off over any form of killing. Get over it folks, even if you don't agree, they have every bit as much right to enjoy them selves at whatever range they care to, as you do.
 
 If you have a problem with lousy hunters doing terrible things to game animals, do something about it. But go somewhere where you can do some good, say a sight-in day at the range. Don't feel right just walking up to someone and offering help? What the Hell have you been doing here? There are lots of folks out there in need of your help, they simply won't be found around a serious LR shooter's bench.
 
 Blaine
 Are you getting old? You have made sense on every one of your posts that I have read recently;-)
 art

Interesting thread. For me personally even more so since I try and vist Mr. Hart at his shop at least twice a year. I think people would be surprised to learn how much the military and others have learned from the boys up Willamsport way. They have pioneered much of the long range shooting. This covers not just the techonogly but everything from ranging, wind reading and tactics.
 
 I personally have never even attempted to shoot a game animal at 200yrds. My longest shot in over 30 years is apx 180 yrds and is one of only two beyond 100 yrds. This has to do with the way I hunt. Even when I lived in Montana I never shot anything beyond 60yrds and this included the prarie goats. I do not find long range hunting inherently wrong. What I do find wrong is when the game is not treated in an ethical and humane manner, be it 10 feet or 1000 meters. If you can hunt them with respect and humanely and do not violate any laws, there should be room for you in the hunting fields.
 
 I am a realist when it comes to people, and realize that someone will complain no matter what it is you do. Life is to short to worry about those people. In the end the only person you really have to live with is yourself. At my age I doubt that I will take up any long range stuff, even paper. As I get older I am finding a foundness for the levers and straight walled cases. I am seriously thinking of starting to cast my own and shooting them. The reason is I seem to find joy using the older rounds and rifles from ganddads days. Does this make my way better or worse then another. NO. But for me it brings joy and fun and I like the venision also, and in my mind only it seems to taste better somehome.

Well, I thought this was a HUNTERS campfire not a shooters campfire. Seems as though we are being invaded by long range shooters that couldn't carry their equipment 100 yards without taking a break. A hunting rifle doesn't weigh 15 to 30 pounds and binos don't take a strong tripod to hold them steady. JMHO if you are a responsible hunter you don't need a range finder to shoot game, if you do it is too far to be responsible and people that play with a life for their enjoyment have MY contempt. Long range shooting and equipment is enjoyable when it is accomplished in the correct mannor. How many people, do you think, that buy a license to hunt can afford equipment like you describe and when you talk it how many do you think will try and stretch their hunting rifle range to any animal they see, especially the young new guys. Personally if I were interested in long range shooting at animals I would go over to that board for the information.

Did I miss a post here? Are the Long Range guys proposing that every hunter has to spend a compact car for equipment to go hunting? What does the fact that every hunter can't afford the equipment have to do with anything? Every hunter can't afford a lot of the trips or gear that is mentioned on these boards and that does not make it any less interesting or, the activities of those who can any less valid IMO. And, if you find that you can HUNT with a rifle without SHOOTING, then that really will be interesting news. In short, I believe the Long Range guys are dedicated hunters who approach it from a different viewpoint, but one that is just as valid as most others. Welcome aboard and tell us more. Wish I lived closer to your ranges.

need one.If you have no interest in long range hunting.Why do you keep posting on this thread?????????

Man alive you boys are sure putting ideas in my old head. Things I never considered before. Ten to 12 K for a gun, yard long barrels! Cartridges that burn powder by the peck. Optics you can look over the horizon with! And cost the down payment on a Chevy.
 Whole shooting match is so heavy it takes a man and
 a boy and a pack mule to tote.
 I got me an idea! I am going to write over to Russia or Overyonderstan or some other Stan and see if I can't get me a surplus ICBM. I hear tell those folks are hard up for cash and selling cheap. Probably get a good one that belonged to a little old commisar who only used it on Linen's birthday and kept it in the garage all the time.
 Now, Sirs, I could just set up in the back yard and find out how to get on the net for some of those space pictures that will show up a match box from space! Maybe even come up with one of those unmanned spy airplanes that send back television pictures. Slightly used and all AAA holes bondoed but not painted. Sort of a rough and ready cammo scheme. Old deer never see what was circling around him like a chicken hawk! Now any deer inside a couple of thousand miles ain't safe from me! No Sir. Just see one I like on my cold war surplus East German monitor ( German's make the best optics don't they?) and light off my ICBM. Well, I can see it now! In just a couple of minutes there goes a mushroom cloud and that old deer will be microwaved and even glow in the dark for the week or so it will take me to walk over there and collect his carcass. Mount him on the wall and have a combination trophy and night light.
 One thing I haven't researched, will I need to purchase an out of state license for each state that my ICBM transits or just one for the impact area?
 [Linked Image]

BCR

Hmmm, a 338-416 is basically a 338 Laupua, Right? Although a 37" bbl isnt my cup of tea. With the kind of money you guys spend, you might as well go with a 5" gun off of a Amphibious Landing Vehicle or something like that. Something like a 15 Mile range with a 20m diameter circle accuracy. I think it is more like a garbage can at half that. Sounds good enough for a deer to me, and that 70lb projectile will do wonders! Also, you wouldnt have to spend all that money on glass beacuse you would know if tou hit them or not!

Boyd, You ask for my answers to your questions. I don't use a tree stand, I don't sit and wait for game, I don't use elk bugles, mechanical or electrical calls. In my estimation , hunting is having the skill to close in on wanted game as close as possible. All my hunting is stalking. I don't sit in meadows or on ridges. First light, I hit the heavy timber and slowly and quietly approach. elk. Now you can rationalize all you want, but the only skill it takes is the skill of shooting and spending money. Which I will give you is not easily. I have shot many 600 yd matches myself with service rifles. Your kind of so called hunting is no better than the people who run all over the hills on ATVs with no regard to other people in the field and are too lazy to get off thier butts and work for the game they take. AT 1000 yds , how can you tell if there is another hunter in the timber behind the game, already stalking it, or wouldn't you care? As I said in my previous post, I don't care if you do it or not, it's legal. But if it was right, you wouldn't get so much flack on it here, nor would you defend it so much. I welcome all the newbies that came over here to post on this subject. Just seems that you had to go off and find someone who would support you and asked them to lend a hand.

Need one
 
 Nobody ever said you or anyone else should buy this equipment. I mentioned it as to let you or anyone else know we are VERY prepared for the long shot when needed and have all the neccessary equipment. We practice all year to be able to use this equipoment correctly. You know the old saying, practice makes perfect.
 
 Lets compare our equipment to the Doctor who wants a fine rifle and pays $5000.00 or more to have his Sauer highly engraved because he likes fine looking rifles to carry in the woods and shoot it 50 or 100 yards.
 
 Hunting styles is a personal decision to make by anyone. The amount he spends on the style he chooses and equipment he buys is nobodys business as long as the equipmnt meets all State laws pertaining to hunting game.
 
 We also have long barreled rifles with bi-pods that are light weight (10# and good to 1250 Yards) in which we pack our Freighter Back-packs with light "bigeyes", a small tripod, thermos, food and carry our equipment out to far ridges (that we have previously pre-ranged the yardages on a picture) to survey the far mountains all day. This is not unlike the the hunter that sits or stands on his favorite deer spot in Pennsylvania or any State. We just do it at greater distance.
 
 You don't have to walk or ride a horse all day to call it the "ONLY way" EVERYONE should hunt.
 
 If your preferance is to do that, fine. Ours is to kill the game clean and at ranges you can't believe mainly because you may not have been around the longrange groups or have no desire to try it. That's fine too.
 
 You hunt your way and we will hunt ours because we enjoy it and know what our rifles are capable of doing way out there. Most short range shooters have NO idea what their rifle's are capable of. We have a 11 Lb rifle class at Williamsport where those with factory rifles shoot at 1000 yards. You would be surprised at the groups and the bullet energy that is maintained at 1000 yards from these factory rifles.
 Remember, most of us started hunting the way you do until we learned there are other ways.
 
 Hunting game is a personal preferance and that's why the game comminsions offer so many different seasons and game animals to eleminate. The way you choose to do it (within the laws and rules) is your decision to make. Sort of like, you hunt your way and we will hunt ours.
 
 We are certainly not trying to convert you to our ways. We just want you and everyone else to know that, Longrange hunting is becoming VERY popular and we will gladly try and help anyone who wants to know how we do it.
 
 As a last point of interest.
 Longrange hunters have NEVER had a hunting accident or caused the wounding or death of another hunter. The short range hunters can't say that at all, especially with their snap shots at game running in the woods.
 
 Through our "Bigeyes" we know where EVERY piece of Orange is on the far mountain/s and will NEVER shoot if another hunter is within 1000 yards of that animal. No game animal is worth hurting another hunter over and I mean NO animal.
 I personally have waited all day till a hunter left the mountain so I could kill a bedded elk we picked up at first light.
 
 There are no "kill yardage limits" in the game law book in any State I'm aware of.
 There are NO moral yardage limits as to how far or how close one wishes to hunt and kill game.
 Kill is kill and dead is dead.
 Your way is fine for you and our way is fine with us. We are all after the same final result, That is to find and kill the animal we are after.
 
 We have never lost one yet and that's considering a "bunch" of elk and deer that we have killed over the years.
 
 Darryl Cassel

DC, -- you are not trying to promote long range hunting over here instead of on your own board? Congratulations. You will find most of the hunters over here are just plain old hunters, trying to make ends meet and save enough for the next hunting trip. Most can't afford a guided trip much less even a $2000 rifle. Don't think a new hunter can afford what you are selling but will try his new Savage 308 out at a mere close 500 yards.You are doing a great job of undermining what we are trying to teach the younguns, ethics, responsibility, morality. To shoot at targets at any range is interesting, fascinating, sport, and condoned by all, to shoot at a living thing at your ranges, irresponsible and immoral in MY opinion. A wounded deer can start running, are you telling me you can shoot running game at a 1000 yards. You are selling BS!!
 I respect the equipment, the range, the time and money involved to get to your point, BUT not at a live target, only contempt. NO flame, just honest opinion from a hunter that cares about our game. Have you ever seen an elk hobbling through the timber with one leg dangling from a bad shot? It doesn't stop there, the pain and suffering from the magots and infection bring it down where it starves to death or eaten alive by ants and predators. I don't want that on my conscience, I do care about our game, they are not just a toy for the wealthy,(or anyone), to play games with. JMHO and does not reflect how any of the others around this campfire feel, just ME, I speak for no one. Just because it's legal at this point, doesn't make it right. They outlawed live pigeon shoots a long time ago. -- no

Darryl, have you guys ever missed one?
 
 The reason I ask, is that I assume (knowing that sets me up) that if you aren't willing to go after a deer or elk that you wouldn't be willing to hike the 1000+ yards to check for signs of a hit on a missed animal. If you never miss (hard to believe -- but I'll take your word for it) OR you follow up on your shots to be certain of a clean miss, then I guess I don't have a problem with what you are doing.
 
 I can't imagine getting enjoyment out of hunting this way, but that doesn't make it wrong for you to do. I'd love to try it on a paper target. I'd rather see your "type" of hunter than the dude who uses the same box of shells for 10 seasons. As someone else mentioned, I hope you aren't poking game out from under folks on their stalks. Not a cool thing to do, regardless of what range you are shooting. I hope you aren't taking this as a flame, it is not intended that way -- unless, of course, you aren't following up on your shots!!!

Stick, -- from your post, why don't you hunt with a cyanide gun, save you much time and effort. Like you said dead is dead. ------- Bet it does matter to you, just hasn't registered yet, the ramifications are great for all of us. -- no

Here's an article by Dan Lilja on Long-range shooting.
 
 http://www.riflebarrels.com/longrange.htm
 
 Rick

NO
 Not to rile you up any further than you already are... but if you look at this thread's inception you will notice that it was someone from this board calling the LR hunters names. They simply were nice enough to come over here and tell their side.
 
 Somehow, telling me they need to spend 20G just to start in their style is not a way to recruit new comers to their way of doing things.
 
 As an aside, I bet the dangle-leg elk you describe was shot at far less than 1000 yds.
 
 Boggy
 You are just too funny!
 art

Need One
 
 Lets you and I understand something here, I don't sell BS to anyone, only the truth as to what we do and have done. We as LR hunters are only trying to share our experiances so the newbies coming into LR hunting will understand and do it correctly.
 
 I also mentioned our way is not for everyone because most hunters as, you mentioned, are only trying to make ends meet and save for the next hunting season and don't have the kind of funding to have the equipment most of us "dedicated" LR hunters have. We didn't buy all of it over night.
 
 As far as a three legged elk is concerned, it probably got that way from a short range shooter who did not place his shot well and maybe while that elk was running away?
 
 We don't shoot at running animals EVER. Even if we miss that first shot, the animal does not relate fear to it as he only heard a little noise from the bullet impacting on the ground. They never heard the noise from the muzzle blast at the distance we are set up and don't relate danger to the slight impact noise from the bullet. We have actualy watched deer and elk walk over and stick their nose in the impact hole because there was dust still coming out of the ground. Maybe the bullet just went over his back. We Take off a couple clicks of elevation maybe make a windage adjustment and the next shot he is DEAD.
 
 As far as teaching youngsters to hunt and shoot, you would be surprised as to how many Juniors we have competing at Williamsport that also LR hunt with their Fathers and Grandfathers so they can learn the correct way to do it. We have 227 Average shooters at every 1000 yard match. Lots of Junior shooters.
 As far as bullet energy at 1000 yards and beyond, I explained that in an earlier post.
 
 People such as yourself may never accept LR hunting but, you should get use to it as the popularity is gaining rapidly even in the young hunters.
 
 I think the miss shot explanation also answered Muley Stalkers question.
 MS--With our Bigeyes, we can see the bullet impact right into the animal and that's a fact. If there is ever a doubt, we go the extra mile and go over to see. We normally DON"T take a shot we are not sure of though.
 
 If you guys are still in doubt, please buy the Video I mentioned in the long post. It will answer any question or doubt you may have. Butch captured the vapor trail of the bullet going right into the animals.
 
 Longrange is here to stay.
 To each his own way of hunting---Live and let live.
 Later
 DC

Here is the problem I have with advocating long range hunting. Many people see what the few can do well and decide "if they can do it, I can do it too". I have seen several hunters who tried shots well beyond their range because of what they read or heard or saw someone else do. Watching a deer running with its jaw blown off at 900 yards is not fun. It's almost impossible to shoot a running deer at that distance. Most hunters who try these shots(when they are not capable of making them) will spend little time tracking that wounded deer. It could easily be a mile away by the time they get to where it was shot. The responsable hunters who follow up their game know their limits(whatever they may be) and don't push them.
 
 Now, is this the fault of those who can shoot long range? Usually no. But there are those who don't get satisfaction of their long range hunting unless they tell hundreds of people what they can do(like they are special). These are the ones I have a problem with. I can hit a deer at longe range as well as most. I choose not to. If you choose to, fine. But don't act like your special because you do. Be responsible about telling of these great feats. Warn those newcomers of the many pitfalls. Tell them strait out how much time it takes to learn and stay competent in long range shooting. Advise them to not even try it if they are not deadly serious about doing it. Its much like the saying in College. Those who can, do; those who can't, teach. In my experiences, those who have tried to convince me of their abilities(in anything) the most, usually had the least. If they were really that good, they wouldn't have spent so much time trying to convince me of something they knew to be true.
 
 Longe range hunting is often compared to military sniping. It couldn't be farther from the truth. In the military, many times wounding is a greater factor than outright killing. This is not the case in hunting. The goal should be the most humane kill no matter what the game no matter what the weapon. It would be nice if everyone knew their limit and stuck to it. The problem is there are too many idiots out there. What can be done about that? That is the real problem.

Art, -- with paper targets or robots fine, I'm for it, but the living thing sticks in my throat. Wonder how they would like to be wounded out in the mountains, no DR or medicene, unable to use their hands to work on the wound. All they could do is watch flies blow the wound and magots start eating. Not a pretty picture. Then they have the audacity to say well so and so is doing it why can't I. Yes, ole no gets hot when this issue comes up. All of us take a long shot occasionally, we hunt, these guys do it all the time for kicks. I don't care if it's the President or Bill Gates, it's wrong and I protest. -- no

Boyd, I'd like to try shooting your guns at paper sometime just to try 'em out. Tell us about your rifles, loads, bullets, optics, range finders, and ballistics charts for wind, humidity, elevation, etc., please. I'd be interested in learning more. By the way, I am not opposed to people doing what you are doing as long as it is done responsibably.

NO,
 
 Back from a long/cold and fruitless 2hr. boat ride,trying to get to work today(impossible). I just put on a pot of coffee and figured I'd head to this thread,'cuz I kew it would be colorful.
 
 I can't answer for anybody but myself and I do what interests me. I've killed critters at 10yds and I've killed them farther than what you'd likely deem as appropriate distance. Dead is dead and I've no qualm with dealing death up close,or stretching her a tad,if conditions are favorable.
 
 The cyanide gun is a far stretch from anything I've mentioned,besides being illegal. I don't see a critter I want and back up from it,to add some sort of "challenge" to the harvest.
 
 Every situation is unique unto itself. Sometimes I'll happily pass an opportunity,other times I'll shoot without reservation. Practice,experience and good equipment are my focal point. That others choose may choose a different path,in the punching of their tags,is of zero concern to me.
 
 We all gotta sleep in our own beds and I sleep well...............

In hunter education the question is posed. How far should you shoot? The answer is also really a question. how far can you get a clean one shot kill? For some it is 50 yards for others it is further. Without slinging any mud since I do not know you new guys and how you really hunt, but having seen some so called longrange shooters at work I question how many longrange shooters check each and every shot that they take. I know the ones I have seen do not bother if the deer/elk/antelope run off. I would guess that most hunters have no business even thinking about shooting past 200-250 yards on their best day. tom

Pumpgun, -- I'm with you, and out of this killing thing.
 
 I though I would be interested in the long range shooting thing but found out it's way over my head in equipment. Now hunting guns is a different matter along with the loads, as long as they are not published in a book. I have seen many posts copied straight out of a manuel, ugg. Stick is the best counsellor we have around this fire as for actual experience using them.
 Stick, everytime I get on rough water I say that's the last time I try that, but stuff happens and we all get caught. Guess that ole tree will have to wait another day or two. Is the rest of the crew out? -- no

Glad I don't limit myself to 250 yards or there'd be one more big black bear still running around in S.E. Alaska instead of at my taxidermist's shop....and that would suck btw. I'm not capable of 500 yard shots with my current set up so I don't take them, but I do know what I can do, and don't hesitate when the opportunity presents it's self. I'm in the process of learning how to strech the mark out to 500 yards and beyond, but as to whether I'll do it while hunting depends on how proficient I become, and how much confindence I have at such ranges. Regardless of how far I become proficient at shooting, the learning process on the "range" will be most entertaining/fun and that's what it is all about for me.

I saw the fireworks coming from a mile off so thought I'd read this thread and see where it was headed. I surely wasn't disappointed! [Linked Image]

Been a long time since Sonnie got his panties in a knot this tight! [Linked Image]

While I agree most shooters should definitely have a self imposed limit of 250 yards or so (some much shorter), I don't have a real difficulty with a PRACTICED, DISCIPLINED, PROPERLY EQUIPPED hunter taking much longer shots as long as the follow up is undertaken at all times. From what I am reading of the LRH posts, I would have no problem with his methodologies or ethics.
 What I don't understand is this- as a group, we are pretty prepared to accept some pretty fantastic results which are verifiable for benchrest shooters, long range competitors, and across the course shooters. Of course, this relates to shooting targets and not living animals. But I just don't understand the reluctance to transfer this skill over to hunting when it can be proven that it can and does happen on a consistent basis with the best shooters. With the proper mindset, practice, equipment and preparation, at the moment of truth in all respects, a game animal is just another target. If you shoot for center of bull every time and accomplish that, what does it matter if it is paper or game?
 The most accurate statement made in this whole thread is that many more people miss at under 100 yards than practiced long range hunters miss at much longer ranges. I believe most of this is due to the fact that most game shot at longer ranges are not nearly as spooked or nervous, so are much less likely to be moving at the shot or be spooked after the shot is taken, allowing for a second shot. I've actually had this happen a couple of times. In my experience, most game shot at long ranges just lays down and dies fairly close to where it is shot.
 OK, let the fireworks continue [Linked Image]

- Sheister

BigSky , I never said anyhting about you limiting yourself to 200-250 yard shots I said most hunters. I think I have seen you among others talking about the once a year guys at the range on sightin day. Do you realy want those guys trying to do longrange shooting? tom

Sky,
 
 You hit it on the head. First you gotta have the know how/skill. Then you gotta have the tools. I saw you hit what you were aiming at,over 720yds away with the first shot and that with a nasty old X bullet and EVERYONE knows they "don't shoot". It wasn't a critter,but a small rock on a snow field. None of that was luck.
 
 I was laughing in my misery today,as we have a new Boss fresh from DownSouth,that was gonna educate us all on navigation "skills". He left from port,with about 400yd visibility in the fog and a SE wind that was gusting to 40mph .Neither a good idea,and dangerous in conjunction,during this time of year. 50/50 snow and rain mix,and about 35degrees isn't the weather you want to play "Survivor" in.
 
 Long story short,we allowed him to stay lost for 2hrs,until I could take no more and had to chime in. We were less than 3 miles due South of where you happened to kill that Bear you mention,when I turned the boat around and pointed on the chart where we were and where we needed to go(about 15miles South of that location). I left the house at 4:30AM this morning in the crummy,didn't get back home until 10:15AM and never made a nickel for my troubles. I can see where I'm going to lose my civil nature with my all-knowing Boss and there is going to be fireworks. It's guys like him,that get themselves killed up here,every year.
 
 Anyhow,funny you mentioned your Bear and I was so very close to that location this morning. Though certainly NOT on purpose!....................

BigStick, Sheister and SilverBullet showed me the video of you shooting crows when I was up in OR visiting last year. most impressive shooting. tom

I'm awaiting a video from Stick about Crow Shooting and such. Can't wait to see it.
 
 I knew this would be an interesting thread! There's no question that long range hunting is becoming more popular and doable with today's equipment.
 
 One tip to the newer guys, you might want to start a thread about Long Range on the 'Big Game" Board or "Rifles" board instead of the Campfire board. I think you got Sonnie's(need one) panties in a wad. [Linked Image]

pumpgun,
 
 Likely "The Pimp" was shooting and I was filming/laughing. I hope my Choir Boy image remains intact..............

Pumpgun, nope it wasn't me talking about the guys at the range as I haven't been to a public range since my teens. However I've read enough horror stories to agree with you that there are a number of folks that shouldn't be shooting past 250 yards. However there's a good many of those folks that shouldn't be handling a gun at all. One other thing I definitely agree with is that there's a whole heap of shots missed under 100 yards that should be consider chip shots. I witnessed it more than once this year and I don't think all my hair has grown back from me pulling on it. I've shot enough to know a person can miss at just about any distance over a yard. I've missed under 100 yard shots myself, but only twice on deer. One was at around 20 yards with a very large whitetail buck moving at warp speed. I had a doe running to my right and the buck running to my left. I shot the doe at about 35 yards and she nose dived, I swung to the left and fired at the buck full well expecting him to do the same. Never happened, missed him clean, but I'm sure it wasn't by much. The guys that owned the ranch chased him around the rest of the season, nobody ever got him. The problem in this case was a fixed 6x scope. Not real conducive to point blank shooting. Big Stick has that scope now btw, and there's no love lost on my part. The other buck I missed made the mistake of giving me one more chance at just over 200 yards. Let's just say the result of my second shot landed his rack in the garage. Bottom line misses can and do take place at all kinds of ranges. However, most of us that shoot a bit, have a pretty good idea what our capabilities are. I wouldn't bet against me at 350 yards or less. I wouldn't bet against Big Stick at twice that distance. From what these long range boys speak of I wouldn't want to be their intended target at 1000 yards. Maybe "most" hunters can't hit anything past 250 yards, but those that can shouldn't be criticized or discouraged from teaching someone else how to do it. So where is this site that these long range shooters came from anyway? AFP what's the website address?

Where did this "magical" 250yd limit come from? I have a range and sight-in scopes for many folks right before deer season because they can't hold steady enough,off sand bags, to do it themselves. Most of these,should limit themselves to 50yds max! Sooo, should we all limit ourselves to 50yds?
 
 Rabid and myself are hosting the current 'Poatal Match" which is a good excuse to get out and shoot paper and see for yourself, what YOU can do. These long range guys sound to me,like they practice alot and know their limits. Do we??????????????

I hear you James. I teach hunter safety and help with sightin at our club. I agree with the not past 50 yards for some them. I picked 200-250 out of the air as a sort of an avg. distance. BTW have you ever had a scope fly off during one of those sesions? tom

Stick, good to see you around. I figured you'd be making big vertical trees into horizontal trees. Sounds like the weather isn't playing very nice. Just out of curiousity did you have to cross that nasty rip tide in the fog today? I didn't like it much in broad daylight let alone in the fog. Glad you are home safe and sound and that your navigational hero (boss) didn't get you guys in a mess beyond getting out of. Hey this whole thread reminds me, do you know anyone that uses Snoopy tents?

Sky,
 
 Actually we approach the job from the South end of that rip. We are working about 10 miles south of it and are departing from a different location,rather than from town here. So we get to ride in the rig for an hour,to hop in the boat for 45 minutes,to get to another rig,to drive a ways,then hike in to work. It is about as much fun,as it sounds like too.
 
 I sent Littlebit video from the rescue mission on "Operation Snoopy Tent",with the high speed Elk Hunters. Amazing to me,that more people don't kill themselves here.
 
 The best way to handle an all-knowing Boss,is to let him flounder in front of the whole crew. then when he is at a total loss and nearing panic,you point the direction to go.
 
 We'll have little trouble with him,until the humble wears off. I'm curious to see how long that takes(grin).................

NO,
 
 You totally missed that point in my post, obviously.
 
 The NOISE does in fact get there after the bullet BUT because the hunter is so close the noise HEARD is much louder at 100 yards versus, 300, 400, 500 or more. Are you with me so far? Because the noise level is so HIGH at 100 yards it does in fact frighten the animal. Are you still with me here? When a hunter shoots an animal at lets say 400 yards the NOISE level is much less because the hunter is so much further away. Are you still with me?? Therefor the animal is not frightened by the noise because of the greater distance. NOW, do you understand?
 
 This was the ONLY point.
 
 Trying to attack others won't work, It only makes you look less intelligent. There are a few NEW guys posting good, solid info here and all you SEEM to want to do is downplay what they are SHARING. Should you decide to SHARE some info of value, maybe people would listen to what you have to say. So far, in this thread that doesn't appear to be so. Sad but true.
 
 Don

P.S. Yes, I have worked the "pits".

It appears that you long range guys spend more time in the field than the average sap and that you set up your guns for a specific area. I think discipline is the operative word here and I hope that you are able to successfully teach and instill this great trait into shooters to whom you teach. By the way, are you able to judge trophies well at that distance and what kind of optics do you use for spotting? Having only hunted here in AK. I cannot imagine preparing for a hunt with those long shots in mind.pak

Dang, Am I the only one here that's gotta work for a living? [Linked Image]

I went to bed late Sunday and I'm a good hour behind in my reading! [Linked Image]

Well I definatley ruffled some feathers here. If you haven't read my post under 200 DEER, please do so, as it pretty much explains my predjudice on this matter.
 
 Ther are a few post I want to reply to, then I can hopfely bow out of this cauldron with a little bit of a** intact. [Linked Image]

First of all, Blaine wrote "I find it amusing that many of the guys who bad-mouth ALL long range shooting don't think twice about swinging on a deer 50 yds away running flat-out in heavy cover. I am also tired of hearing about how "noble" these game animals are, etc. If we really thought they were that noble, we wouldn't be killing them. I also fail to see how taking a questionable shot on a deer or elk is "unethical," but taking a questionable shot on a prarrie dog, coyote, or bobcat is okay. This strikes me as very inconsistent reasoning."
 
 I am very picky about the shots I take, so I seldom miss or cripple. If I do miss I'm usualy very surprised, because I'm pretty sure of a shot before I take it. I'm not trying to say deer are "noble", but I think EVERYONE will agree that they deserve a little more respect than a paper target. If you don't feel that way, pick a new hobby. I never metioned any varmints as I don't have time to hunt them. I will say that it doesn't take near as much snot to kill one as a deer, so you can stretch the range a little more.
 
 LeeC, I almost blew a gasket reading your post til I realized you were joking. I assume you know what I mean by still hunting, some guys call it stalking. Anyway That's what gives me the most pleasure from hunting. I wouldn't compare that to shooting, which is in fact sitting at a bench.
 
 Art, do me a favor and re-read my original post. I condemned the long range hunting out of ignorance and predjudice. There was no name calling or derogitory shots taken at anyone. If what I said was taken that way, I apoligize. But do me one favor, grow a thicker skin.
 
 Now back too the topic De-Jour. I admit I'm very predjudiced here. This is new to me. I hear a**holes all the time telling me about shooting deer out to God knows where, and connecting every time. I work with some of these Bozo's and I hope they put more effort into following up a shot than they do their work. Somehow though, I doubt it. Some guy tells this kind of story, and someone who doesn't know better thinks "I can do that too". A few cretens like this can cause all kinds of grief.
 
 Now if you Fellows say you follow up each shot, and never loose one, I'll take your word for it. If you're lying, well that's on your tab, not mine. My main concern is allowing cripples to get away without a reasonable effort to recover them. I would imagine that if you were loosing them at that range, you would try to cut the range down. If not, well... like I said it's your tab.
 
 As to the money such a set up cost, well I hope you agree that I'm entitled to my own opinion. I would think that the time and money invested in such do-dads could be better spent in studying trails and setting up hunting season, but like I said, that's just my opinion. I also thinkthe money spent on human cloning could be better invested in curing cancer. But that and 50 cents will get you a cup of coffee, so......
 
 To those of you who are new here, welcome to the campfire. I hope I didn't put anybody off on this site, cause it is the best group of guys (and a few gals) you'll find. We're like a family here, and every family has a few who put their foot in their mouth now and then.
 
 Boyd. The offer still stands. If you want to come down to Bedford sometime, drop me a line. I'd love to see this long range shooting sometime, but I hope you'll forgive my opinion of doing it on deer.
 7mm

Think I am way ahead of you partner, been there done that probably many years before you. Are you with me? Probably killed more game than you have seen. Lived in NM many years and worked in the mountains, was a warden until going into the Air Force, know what irresponsible people can do, you sound like one of them. Got that? -- no

7mmbuster
 Here is most of your original post, so you needn't go back to find it;
 "Heard from a guy on another forum about shooting deer at long range. Now, I'm thinking 400 yards. NO! 500? Hah! He's talking over 750 yards! This is a sport?!
 
 When did deer become a bullseye on an oversize benchrest range? For crying out loud. If you got these sniper fantasies, then join the freaking military!
 
 The idea of hunting is to get as close as you can, not shoot from the next county. You try to be a part of the environment, you blend in. YOU BELONG THERE. Deer are a precious natural resource, and deserve to be treated with care and respect."
 
 To start with the funny part, few who know me would suggest I grow thicker hide... I certainly had no ruffled feathers, simply making comments on someone I felt was making an emotional attack, which I agree with you was based on "ignorance and predjuidice," your words there. But there is a non-sequitur there, and I am not certain whether you are accepting the fact you were arguing solely out of emotion.
 
 You also started the ball rolling on the "precious natural resource" line of argument, which several, myself included, find a bit stilted and over-emotional. Somehow, I do not see automatic sainthood coming with a heartbeat. Tell it to the families of some of the many people being killed in the mid-west each year in deer-vehicle collisions because the various agencies allowed the "precious natural resource" to over-populate their range.
 
 I was simply pointing out that your attacks were ad hominem. You called their methods unsporting and suggested repeatedly that they did unsporting things, suggested they had wierd fantasies... you call it.
 
 No offense intended, nor taken.
 art

No wonder the bunny huggers are winning, bet they laugh like heck when they read this thread. I do not take shots at 300 yds or 1000 yds. the reason being I don't believe I am able to hit my target consistently, but if I had the proper equipment, training and a lot of practice I don't see why it couldn't and shouldn't be done. Yes, there are people that can't hit their intended target at 50yds but there are also people that can't walk and chew gum at the same time and I still walk and chew gum even if it does stick to my dentures. [Linked Image]

pumpgun,
 
 Never had a scope fly off at the range but have seen some "hunters" try to chamber the wrong ammo in their rifles and had one dude who,when his ammo was sticking, shot some WD-40 in the chamber to help with extraction(Yikes)
 
 Like I said, half the hunters I see,should limit their shots to 50yds or less,with their 300 mags that they never practice with. I don't know why some folks think they were born with a Davy Crockett gene and can automatically shoot without any preparation or skill.
 
 I take my hat off to those that can and do,shoot at any range they feel comfortable and know when not to shoot.

Art, Yeah, I'll be the first to admit that I acted on emotion. Like I said I was raised on venison through some tuff times, and was taught to value the meat and the animal. Hence I tend to get emotional if I think someone is just blasting away without any thought other than maybe getting the first one to fall down.
 
 I thought I was dealing with another like those I refered to working with. There are a couple at my workplace who claim to have killed deer at over 800 yrds. One with a .243!!! These jokers do very little walking there, so I seriously doubt that they'll walk 800 yrds to follow up a shot.
 
 After reading how these guys do it, I'm willing to admit I acted on ignorance and emotion. Now that I know a little more about it, I must admit I'm a little intrigued by it. I'm not ready accept it as hunting, but the shooting part has me curious.
 
 As for those killed in deer/vehicle collisions, now who is bringing in an emotional arguement? I could be wrong, but I'd wager PA has nearly as many such incedents as any other state. Definately more than most. As for that, I think the driver has alot to do with it. There are plenty of deer hit on my road every year, but I have yet to come close. SLOW THE HELL DOWN if you think there's a possibility of hitting them. Ther are some collisions that are unavoidable, thats true, deer have a habit of coming out of nowhere, but around here, If you slow down to a breakneck speed, you can avoid most of them.
 
 Now that I admited I acted Rashly, would you mind telling me just what in the world "non-sequitur" and "ad hominem" mean? [Linked Image]

Them's some big $20 words, and I got a 12th grade education and a back-breaking blue collar job!
 7mm

This might help with perspective on the "wounding/losing " objection to long- let's call it ultra long- range hunting:
 
 My partner just returned Sunday from three weeks of guiding Nilgai hunts in S. Texas. He was bragging on the 270WSM.They had 12 hunters,mostly or maybe all Win. reps, all shooting that cartridge. He said they "only" lost one bull out of the twelve hunters.That's compared to one out of eight on average.
 
 The hunters they get are not your once a year guy.And they average losing one in eight.That's not counting the ones that aren't lost because the guide nails them.
 
 Does anyone think the lost ratio is much different on deer? Seems to me the ultra long range guys are entitled to lose as many as the average before they are branded irresponsible.And yet they have lost none.
 
 I doubt there is a worse deer crippling practice around than buckshot but if I lived in a state that mandated it,that's what I'd use.If hunting is a game- and to me it's not - then losing is not going home hungry,it's crippling an animal.You will lose some and if you can't take your loss like a man then I dont want you whining around the same fire with me.
 
 And since when did this campfire become solely about "teaching the young 'uns"?

Hi everybody.I'm back.A good freind of mine made a Long Range Hunting video this past year.There are 11 kill shot's from 400 to 1150 yard's.Gun's used are.A Box stock Rem Sendero in 300 Weatherby.A 300 Weatherby with a 28"Hart barrel..A 30 Hart with a 30" barrel.And a 338-378 with a 30"barrel.Like Darryl Cassel said before.You can see the wash off the bullet as it is on it's way to the deer.You can also see the bullet as it strike's the deer.He is also making a HOW-TO video.We spent most of the day today shooting video for it.If any of you have an interest in LRH.The hunting video will show you what happen's when thing's are done right.The how to video will show you how to do thing's the right way.And how to do them safely. If any of you want a hunting video contact [email protected] would be glad to show you what a (Real gun) is capable of sometime.How far can we shoot up there?

7mm,
 
 I have been staying out of this one for a long time, and don't intend to get caught up in the melee. My feeling is that if you can make a killing shot take it. If that means that you can kill deer at 2000 yards with a muzzleloader, more power to you. If you have any doubts, get closer before you shoot. Seems simple enough to me, but I guess it isn't based upon the ruckus that this topic has raised!
 
 Now, my real point - guys in PA and their long range shots. My dad, as some may know, is a gunsmith in Westmoreland County. We have guys in and out of the shop all of the time with tales of their long shots. Most of them cant tell 150 yards from 1000 yards. We have several landmarks around the shop that we have checked with a laser rangefinder (50 - 1500 yards). We even had them verified by a surveyor that is a customer. With this information in hand, we often ask customers to estimate the ranges to some of the landmarks. You would be amazed the answers that we get from some guys when we ask them to estimate how far away some of these landmarks are. There is one telephone pole that is almost exactly 400 yards. One guys that ALWAYS kills deer at 700 and 800 "yards", estimated that the 400 yard pole was actually at 900 yards. My point being, most guys can't tell 50 yards from 500. These guys shouldn't be hunting AT ALL IMHO. They are dangerous at 10 yards! Could it be that your coworker falls into this category?
 
 FWIW, the guys that shoot competitively (ie - shoot a lot and know their guns and loads) answer with far greater accuracy than those that have had the same box of ammo for the past ten years. No surprise there I guess.
 
 Stush

I love this thread. I am learning more stuff than Carter has liver pills. Who says you can't teach an old dog new tricks. Now when I want to learn that long range shooting I don't want to just piddle around with them little 7/8ths mile shots. No Sir, I want to go whole hog or none. But there is bad news to report. You can't buy an ICBM for nothing. They is all spoke for and earnest money put up.
 However in crusing around the old net I run across the web site of Honest Achmet's used camel emporium and tea room. He has offered to fix me up with a quad mount DShK M38/46 12.7 m/m. How bout them apples. Honest Achmet says it came off a trade in Soviet Tank in Candyjar, Aftergrandstand or somewhere like that and has been sitting in a warehouse since 92. Says it is in 95% condition and has a six months warrantee. He has some tracer and ap rounds and will throw in a spare mount if I will take the whole thing as one lot. Each gun weighs 78.5 pounds with a 42 inch barrel. No Siree bob no piking around with them little fifteen and twenty pound long range rifles for me.
 I am going to get the whole thing fob on an Liberian flaged freighter bound for the Gulf Coast.
 Boy Hi Dee, I can hardly wait. I am going to put out the word amoungst all the possums, and coons, and foxes and such and let that word filter through all the woods. Now next season I will just mount up my quad DSkH and you know there is just no missing with them things. Especially when you got an in with a Spy in the sky sattelite like I do. I won't have to worry about staying warm when it is cold or dry when it is wet or breaking in new boots or nothing. Not a worry about learning any thing about how deer live or what they eat or what kind of cover they like or the travel routes they prefer. Not for this boy. When the word gets out to all the deer all I will have to do is set on my front porch and sip hot toddys, and wait. Maybe eat a few bon-bons. Pretty soon they will all just come in to surrender. I can see it now. Marching up, little hooves stuck up in the air above their ears. Little white flags fluttering from their antlers. Be like a Wild Kingdon version of the Iraqi army in Desert Storm.
 I don't know if this will fully satisfy my thirst for true long range shooting though. I think I might have a line on a 280 m/m cannon. Man we are talking thirty miles here.
 BCR

Boggy,I can get you a deal on some hi-capacity mags for that 280 mm cannon.Once you get the range,you're gonna want more firepower.

Hey Boggy, -- I'm gettin real interested in this long range shootin myself, think you might swing me a deal on somthin kinda light, you know, like maybe a 1/2 mile flat shooter. If Willey would let me in the yard maybe we could do a little shootin at some of those flower vans running down the interstate for practice. Got to practice, practice, to where we can hit running targets at a decent range. Think that camel man will take our 270s trade in. -- no

I side with Boggy in this debacle. Took a sip just before I started Boggy's post and laughed so quick I nearly spit up all over my keyboard.

I hunt with some of the most experienced marksman in the world, they are complete professionals. I have never seen a wounded animal, and if there was, there would be no question as to followup. None of them take a step backward to make it further than necesssary..Ethics has NOTHING to do with how far you shoot, but has everything to do with the way you approach a hunt. I do not know ANY longrange hunters that do not fail to have the best equipment, and they practice all year.. The guys you talk about shooting longrange, are not hunters they are hacks that try to shoot at longrange.. They would be no better off at 100yds, than 600yds..They do not practice, and have little respect for their quarry. One thing I have learned that if you are hunting true trophy class animals, you will very rarely get close to them, they have their circle of safety, and they know it very well, if one of these animals bust you, you are very unlikely to see them again...You might only get one shot, and it might be 500-600yds or further, and you had better hit with the first, or you will not see them again. The guys I hunt with know where these animals are, and have scouted all year, and will hump however far they need to to get there, and I can tell you, they are not going to take many chances that leave that animal on the side of the hill. I am a man of modest means, but when I go into the field, I absolutely have the finest eqipment to do the job. I have a 9lb David Miller marksman, and 15X56 swarovski's, and I am ordering the new swarovski spotting scope soon..and I practice year round So as you see, I do not have a 25lb bench rifle to carry anywhere..I simply have no patience for anyone to tell me how far is too far, when they have absolutely no idea what I am capable of, or what my intentions are. I just got off a Oryx hunt with Art, and the day we got there, the warden told us that the day before they had 11 animals lost out of 25 hunters. These were not longrange hunters, they were just everyday guys that keep there shots short, because on this hunt you very rarely shoot over 200yds.Now you tell me who the unethical group is..The guys that shoot outwards of 900yds, and do not lose an animal, or the ones that keep there shots to 200yds, but still can't shoot, and lose 11 freaking Oryx.. Rant Over..

NO,
 
 When you say: "Are you with me?" It doesn't look like anybody on this thread is "with" you. It appears you are all alone.

I realize at your advanced years it may be difficult for you to understand things unless you take the time to re-read several times. I have a suggestion, go back and re-read the posts so you may make an informed decision. Should this pose a problem, for you, I will do what I can to help you more fully understand.

Don

Don don't know - It really takes a man with a lot of class to sit behind a computer a thousand miles away and bad mouth a person because of age. With a little luck you might get there. You should be as smart as NO.

Don Knows:
 
 Need One and I may have our personal disagreements, and we may disagree on the topic of this thread, but taking a cheap shot because someone has been lucky enough to make it to the golden years is in very poor taste and speaks volumes about the poster, not the person he is attempting to deride. I think you should delete that post and I will then delete mine.
 
 Just for the record, Need One is in no way senile and is a good deal sharper than most men of any age.

Sheesh Don,
 
 Can't you remain civil and engage in debate without resorting to personal attacks? It IS possible to disagree and make your point while keeping the tone of discussion polite and gentlemanly. Its called CLASS. 'nuff said. badger.

What I don't get is why some of you are getting so defensive. If you think what you are doing is OK, why do you care what someone you don't know, have never met, and probably never will meet, thinks about how you hunt. Are you trying to convince them or yourself?

Badger,
 
 Point out who attacked who, will you?
 
 NO did the attacking, not me

I am merely trying to explain the point, which the old guy obviously did not get. He seems to disagree with most everything posted on this thread. Maybe he is lonely and needs some attention.
 
 Perhaps you need to go back and look what I said in my first post on this thread. I merely agreed with one of the long range hunters about the noise (at close range) scaring the heck out of the deer. Then your old buddy comes on and attacks me,,,,and this is ok with you? I didn't mention NO in my first post on this thread. In fact I didn't mention any name/handle at all with regards to the noise at close range.
 
 Perhaps you and your buddies are just out to harass people just for fun. That was not my intention, but it seems to be yours.
 
 Add something usefull to the thread, versus attacking me, if your capable of doing so.
 
 I read what the long range hunters have posted with interest because what they are saying is of interest, to me. If somebody doesn't agree with what is said, thats fine, but when this old timer attacks for no reason at all, that merely proves his ignorance. If he is going to START dishing it out, he should at the least have thick enough skin to get it back.
 
 Don

quote- "add something useful to this thread instead of attacking me, if you are capable of doing so"
 
 When you say: "Are you with me?" It doesn't look like anybody on this thread is "with" you. It appears you are all alone.

Don

(end quotes)
 
 Don, your hypocritical stance on many issues makes you a poster child for disdain. On this board and any other I've seen you post on, your childish personal attacks always degenerate to this type of nonsense- I wonder why?
 
 Oh, and by the way, you remember when I said I'd never reply to your posts again? I changed my mind- I just can't resist jumping into the easy openings you leave for criticism. Sometimes you just make it too easy- Hey, but you have a nice day, OK?

Stush, the one guy is fairly short, so if he paced it off it probably was 800 yrds (for him). [Linked Image]

But this aint just one guy either. There are at least 2 claiming 800 yrd shots and a few others at 6 or 7 hundred. Just your average everyday bull sh**, you know? Fisherman aren't the only liars around. Anyway, these clowns pretty much ignore me, as they know I won't listen to a lie. What bothers me is there are some inexperienced guys who are dumb enough to buy this crap, and think any deer within 3 miles can be shot.
 
 These fellows here have put alot of time and money into these long shots, and while the hunting end of it doesn't float my boat, I'd love to see the shooting done. For the effort they put forth, I'm inclined to believe that they are effective at it, and that's all I'm concerned about, making the effort to take the game, not letting them go to feed the possums. Lord knows there are too many yo-yos doing that at all ranges, with all kinds of weaponry.
 
 Boyd, I'll ask around and see if I can come up with a place around here. I've got a friend who has a .338 Lapua who would just love to meet you. He has expressed an interest in this stuff already. As for me, I'd love to see you all shoot, but when it comes to hunting, I prefer to be on my own and in the woods.
 7mm

WOW, what a coming home party! Thanks guys, for the support but we ought to cut old Don some slack. He had such a time with his old handle I think it left him a little bitter, he will be alright, just having growing pains.
 Don, all I can say is, walk softly partner, every day, your are one step closer to my age. Age does have it's draw backs and I feel them but my trigger finger still twiches when the season rolls around and I am out there somewhere. You forget, there are many around this campfire that have retired, every comment hits them also.You received good advice, perhaps you are sitting too close to the fire, kick back and enjoy this campfire together. -- no

Quote "For those that don't beleive you or THINK in their narrow minds that you aren't hunting,,,,,,,let em think whatever they want. It's to bad that such narrow minded people exhist."
 (I didn't correct the spelling.)
 
 Don, making a statement like that in light of the preceding posts surely does not need any names mentioned to know to whom you are referring.
 
 As to your last (Please God, make it the last!!!) post , quote "Add something useful to the thread, versus attacking me, if your capable of doing so." (Syntax not corrected either.), I respectfully refer you to my first post on this thread. I make no pretensions as to my shooting skills, neither do I condemn those who choose to hunt in a manner different to my own. I do not, however, see the need to throw myself prone and fawn all over these gentlemen who choose to take their game at long distances & be in awe of their abilities. They have made in investment in high quality equipment and invest the time in practise to hone their skills. Doesn't mean I would hunt in that manner, assuming my eyesight and equipment were up to the task. You will notice if you read my first post, that I was not at all critical of long range shooting, rather I was interested to learn more about it. I responded to your drivel simply because I believe that debate should be conducted with good old fashioned manners. You stepped over the line & obviously I'm not alone in my opinion. badger.
 
 "Never wrestle with a pig, he will enjoy it, you will get dirty."

DonKnows, I've been abstaining from this, watching most of the fellows defending long range shooting digging yourselves in deeper. NO comes on a little strong, but common sense and physics are on his side. Anyone claiming to shoot regularly at wild animals at 1000 yards or more and always making either a clean miss or a vital hit, is stretching our credulity. And that is true the more we know about shooting, not the less.
 
 I applaud the advances you guys are making in technoloogy and the art of extreme long range accuracy. I'm not comfortable with some of your choices on game shots, but life is too short to waste time disagreeing on this kind of issue. I'd actually enjoy talking over hunts and shots on game with you in person, as I would with any personable hunter. Your thin skin makes it sound like you are trying to convice yourself, and that makes for an uncomfortable conversation.
 
 Now Big Stick, he shoots long when needed, but it's just one of the tools in his kit. He stalks a lot of them close and shoots them through a hole in the brush. Curiously, he has impressed me with his judgment about when and how to shoot long. He's done that by not making such extreme statements, and by hunting accounts that match real life experience.
 
 Whenever anyone starts making or implying absolute statements, like always going up to a mile across country to check an apparently missed shot, all bullets can be seen at the end of a 1500 yard flight (in all light conditions?), long range shooters are more conscientious than others, etc. you hurt your case. I knew one really good long range shooter, who killed a lot of deer across a canyon at ranges from 900 yards to over 1500. He wounded a few. His 25 or 30 immitators wounded a lot, so many that the game department made it illegal to shoot across that canyon, written in the game regulations as a no shooting area. I applauded his ability but was disappointed at the overall outcome. All of those guys were long range hunters, not just the one who could shoot well.
 
 Hey, we'll give you slack to lug out a heavy rifle and shoot as far as you want. I'm interested in hearing about how you do it. Just don't be like most special interest groups in America and demand we approve. Most of us are tolerant, which by definition means we tolerate something that we don't endorse or that makes us uncomfortable. You don't need NO's approval to shoot at a deer a mile away, nor mine.

Gentlemen,
 If anyone on this site is interested in learning about Long Range Hunting feel free to ask away.

I'm tired of all this pussy footing around you guys are doing so you don't hurt the feelings of these so called long range hunters. The type of people that indulge in this sort of activity is no better than all the rest of the so called hunters that put hunting in a bad light. Everyone of you out there knows this is wrong. Every time the media talks about poachers, jack lighters, people that shoot trophies and take only the antlers, they refer tp them as hunters. They put them into the same class as you and I. When they find out about these guys , they will do the same thing. Maybe you don't know this, but the futureof hunting rest with a large segment of the populace that does not hunt, but neither thinks it good or bad. Every time some group does something like this, the anti hunters have another nail in the coffin to sway that segment of the populace.
 They themselves know it is wrong or hey wouldn't spend so much effort defending themselves. The only thing they invest in this are thier egos so they will have bragging rights as to how far they can kill an animal. Too lazy to get off thier duffs and learn woodsmanship, stalking techniques and everything else we all learned in our aprenticeship.Given enough money, we could all buy the asme equipment, and most could do the same thing. Maybe you won't say they are not welcome here, but I will. In my world there is no place for this type of killing. And if Don Knows wants to take a shot a me , go ahead, I don't have quite as long a tooth as No, and I won't be as mannerly

Hey Saddleburr:
 
 You wrote: "Given enough money, we could all buy the asme equipment, and most could do the same thing. Maybe you won't say they are not welcome here, but I will. In my world there is no place for this type of killing."
 
 Well, I dunno, I consider myself a pretty good shot and I shoot fairly regularly at 500 meters but killing a deer regularly at twice that distance and more is quite a feat IMO. I'm not necessarily saying I couldn't do it, but I can say that lots of people can't. For instance the Varmint Hunters Association which has quite a few members keeps a list of varmint hunters with confirmed kills at varying distances, 500 yards being the closest as I recall, at any rate, the number of hunters with confirmed kills drops off dramatically at 1000 yards and becomes positively minimal at 1500. Last time I checked the longest confiremed kill to date was 3120 yards. as I recall. So it ain't all that easy with the best of equipment. Judging the wind is the critical component I believe, given that you have to laser the distances.
 
 Now, I don't know who made you the judge of who should be welcome around this fireplace but as far as I am concerned any hunter or shooter of good will is welcome and these guys are welcome around any campfire that I have. Tell me, in your world is a dead deer somehow different because it was killed at closer ranges? Last time I checked in mine, dead is dead.

Well I can't condemn a man,for doing the very things I enjoy too. Killing is killing in my book. Some term it different,alternate implements are used,but the focal point is the same. I don't feel the need to apologize,for trying my damndest to fill tags,in the manner I choose. Especially when all of that,is well within legal restrictions.
 
 My life isn't spent trying to sway some fence straddler,to come on over to my way of thinking. Nobody can make someone who doesn't want to Hunt,become a Hunter. All you can do,is open windows of opportunity and allow those inclined to get a taste of what it's all about and decide for themselves.
 
 So if a guy wants to Fly Fish while I'm Drift Fishing,I could care less. That many deem Rifle Hunting as unsportsmanlike,compared to Archery,causes me zero grief. Just because I couldn't personally man a treestand for 8hrs without going nuts,doesn't mean there should be legislature to preclude their use,to satisfy my selfish wishes.
 
 Nor do I think I'm so smart,that I should write a Rule Book for others to blindly follow,to humor my whim.
 
 My deepest concerns are in regards to the Bozos that practice little and are blazing away at everything they can get a crack at. That regardless of anything. They are the littering slobs,that have zero respect for personal property or anything else in general.
 
 To ride some guys that have found a niche that suits them and they are adept at,seems ridiculous in the extreme. And a damn shame in general.
 
 Your mileage may vary..................

Saddlesore
 What better way for "them" to win than to split up hunters into factions and win by getting us to call one another names? People need to realize that there are lots of ways of doing the same thing, and just because someone else has a different solution to the problem doesn't mean they don't have the right one.
 
 Lighten up, these guys are serious enough for all of us.
 
 Lee
 Had left out the numbers that Ben told us about on the oryx, mostly because I was pretty disgusted by it, but now that you have that in the open... any of you naysayers to LR have any ideas??? How do you legislate ethics?
 art
 art

Saddlesore
 
 Now that I have brought my folding chair over to the fire and a pack of hot dogs, let me clear something up for you.
 
 I'm 61 years old and have hunted all ways there are to hunt and take game. I have certainly taken my share and then some in all styles of hunting and in several States.
 
 I'm in Pennsylvania and have not missed a buck season in 40 years now. I still climb up in my tree stand and bow hunt, sometimes grab my muzzle loader and take it for a walk. I also take my factory carry rifle and take a walk in the mountains of PA, WV and Colorado when I'm hunting for deer and elk.
 This is usually done only to stretch my legs and take a break from glassing the far mountains with our large binoculars (Bigeyes) while my LR friends and I are Longrange hunting.
 
 In between times my wife, who also hunts with me, and I are at ALL the 1000 yard matches at Williamsport where we have not missed a 1000 yard match since 1987 and are officers in the club.
 You might say we are not the 3 day a year hunter who still has 4 or 5 rounds in his one box of shells he bought 5 years ago.
 
 We (my LR friends and I) also go woodchuck hunting and kill at ranges you would not believe. This is to prepare us for the big game season ahead. So you see we do a lot of practicing.
 
 My favorite way of hunting is to Longrange and extreme longrange hunt for deer and elk. Again, you would not believe how far my LR hunting friends and I have killed game and NOT LOST ANY to date.
 This is due to the equipment we have and the practice we do to know how to use it. For instance, Our laser rangefinders are military units and you can't buy any commercial unit that comes close to doing what these things will do. We know within 5 seconds how far that animal is.
 
 Our equipment is the best we can find and our practice using such, continues all year. When we go after game, we are well prepared and know what the bullets are capable of at the yardages we shoot.
 We NEVER shoot at a running animal and when we do shoot it is well thought out before hand.
 
 For those of you who don't understand it, you probably have never seen it done correctly. It may NEVER be your cup of tea but, that's alright too.
 Sort of, you hunt your way and we will hunt ours because both ways are legal in every State.
 
 I am NOT trying to convince anybody that they should LR hunt. I am also not trying to justify Longrange hunting to anyone. I don't have to. We just want you to know that it (LR Hunting) is getting very popular and we will be glad to answer questions from the newbies coming into it, to help them out.
 You can't walk into your gunshop and carry out a 300 RUM Sendaro with a Mark 4 or Leupold LR 8 1/2X to 25 X scope on it and call yourself a LR hunter. It takes YEARS of practice to be proficient at it. We are only promoting safety and the effective way of placing a bullet downrange.
 
 We, the dedicated longrange hunters know what we can do and what shots we can take of can't take. We have been doing it for Many years now and I will do it till I can't sign my license any longer..
 
 For someone to say we are lazy is a pure untruth. Our work really starts when the animal goes down. We have to go down the mountain we shot from and climb the mountain the game is laying on, then cut it up and pack it out.
 
 We are not saying your way of hunting is wrong and who are you or anyone else to say our way is wrong?
 
 Is there a right and wrong in killing anything with a bow or rifle other then quickly? If so, show me that in a game law or State stature involving the taking of game.
 
 We (LR Hunters) are the safest hunters in the world. No one has EVER been hurt, wounded or killed by a LR hunter. The short range shooters (i'm also one of those) can't say that.
 We know where every piece of orange is on the far mountains by the use of our optical bigeyes and we will never put a shot anywhere near another hunter. No game animal that ever walked is worth that.
 
 So to sum this up, some of us hunt or have hunted and taken game ALL ways and know what the difference is between the various styles of hunting. Until a person experiances the LR way, he will never know what it's like.
 
 Again, we don't have to justify what we do to anyone.
 We are just stating facts.
 Dead is dead no matter what the range is as long as you are comfortable with the shot. You should know your limitations at all times.
 
 If anyone would like to email me concerning LR shooting or hunting, the address is [email protected]
 
 Thanks for having me around your fire again tonight. I just filled up on Hot dogs.
 
 Darryl Cassel

There are some folks commiting the unforgivable campfire sin;Taking yourself too seriously.
 
 It aint the LR hunters doing it.
 Igot a question for the fella using the 416/338;Does it have a brake?

Hi,Darrel I'm glad you decided to post as you have more knowledge than just about anyone in this.
 
 Thank you to those that have welcomed us LR guys here.
 For those that say that we are defending ourselves,where not.This thread started because someone said it couldn't or shouldent be done.All we(Boyd,DC,myself and others)are trying to do is explain that it can be done, quit easily FOR US.
 Now I'm going to setup a situation for you to see how I would do it.
 
 Well start off with equipment first.
 Rem. M700 300Ultra mag.
 Leupold 6.5-20LR
 220gr MK's at 2820fps.
 Laser range finder
 Plam PDA with ballistic program
 Spotting scope
 Watch that gives me the ENV and MET conditions
 AND MY SPOTTER THE MOST IMPORTANT THING
 
 Say we spot a deer,the first thing we will do is make sure there is no orange(hunters)any where near the target.Then I take a range reading, while me spotter gets the MET/ENV conditions and puts them in the computer.He gives me the MOA comeups and the wind call.After that he puts his eye in the spotting scope and never takes it off the deer again.When he says to fire I shoot as soon I am steady.He watches the trace ALL THE WAY TO THE ANIMAL,and if I miss or wound,not likely,he gives me the MOA corrections.Something you need to understand is the animals do not react like they would if shot up close 400yds or so in.When shot even if they are wounded THEY ALWAYS LAY DOWN.They not run off like you think, they stay very close to where you hit them.
 I go for one shot hits,but that is pretty hard without a lot of trigger time,and training.Most serieus LR hunters use the spotter methed for shots over 1000yds.
 
 For anybody that thinks Boyd, DC and myself are trying to brag,your sorely mistaken.We have absalutly no reason to brag.We all know what we are capable of,and like DC said he hasn't even told you what ranges he's able to consistantly kill deer.Try 2000yds plus.
 The ones that have answered here know there stuff and can back it up.We practice all the time.I practice consantly,last year my spotter and I shot over 17,000 rounds.This year where on pace to shoot 25,000.
 
 This seems like a good site with mostly good people.And for someone that truely wants to know how its done and not just have prejustice,I invite you to come to www.longrangehunting.com.But we rule it with an iron hand and will not accept any name calling,calling someone a liar,or people Qestioning the ethics of it.Its soley a place to learn without anybody badgering you.

Hello Gene and Seal
 
 Gene
 I'm the one using the 338/416 Rigby Imp and No it does not have a break.
 
 Seal
 Thanks for the kind words and the very good list of equipment most of us have and also the procedure we use.
 
 Darryl Cassel

What are you shooting,that will stay supersonic,at 2K?..........

DC, -- A question, No flame or flack, you or one of the LR shooters stated if the first shot misses sometimes the deer will go over to the spot and smell the dust from the spot. Well, with all your rangefinders, charts, big eyes, why didn't that first shot kill?? It could have wounded!!! The animal moved and you talk about doing the click thing and having a dead deer. Balononononey. None of your clan ever wounded a deer, I can't believe that. You and I know it is impossible to physically hold a rifle steady enough to even shoot close at a 1000 yards. One of these young shooters with fresh eyes can line up a 30 pound rifle sight laying on bags and do the same thing you are doing. The real skill is in the loading of the ammo, quality componets, building the rifle and it's care, and knowing how set it up for the shot. That's what I am interested in, not shooting at a living thing as target, to me that's foolish, when it's not needed and you know that also, if you are the hunter you claim to be. -- no

SNIPER,
 
 Is the 300Ultra a Factory rifle,or did you have it built? Do you find the HS stock serviceable? What kind of results can you get,at 1K on the average,with the Ultra? Are you having any luck,with barrel life? Are all the rounds you mention,fired through your long range Hunting rifles,or is most of it 308Win type stuff?
 
 Just curious.............

No,the guys have said repeatedly that they have not LOST a deer.I havent seen any claims about the game always being nailed in it's tracks.Iknow you dont count an animal as lost just because it runs over the ridge and you find it laying dead or maybe have to finish it off.
 
 They just have the skill,equipment,and - most important the want to - to duplicate at distance what the rest of us do at lesser distance.That doesn't make them a lesser hunter, or me a lesser shooter.
 
 We need to start identifying and quit comparing.

Wow, 25,000 rounds a year. Not all that much for a shotgunner, but for a rifle.....Wow. Hmmm, approximately 70 rounds a day, everyday. Someone must work nights or not at all and keep the barrel makers very happy.

Good point,CAT.If the muzzle jump on his 300 Ultra is half as bad as the one I had,the guy is going to build up a tremendous amount of gripping strength in his hands!

Okanagan,
 
 I'm a bit confused. I am not sure if you wanted to address me on this or if you read somebody else's posts and thought I said it. I have never said I shoot animals across canyons at 900 yards, or further, so I assume you meant to address somebody else. Where I LR hunt, the field I watch is 750 yards across, at the longest point. The land is very flat, I doubt it goes up and down more then 4 feet all the way across the 750 yards. So, as you can see I surely don't shoot across any canyon and it is not possible for me to shoot further then 750 yards (from that location). Now, I do hunt on farms (for woodchucks) that shots of 1000 yards plus are possible. My best kill to date on a woodchuck using my 22 is 660 yards. My best kill to date on a deer is 420 yards. I do have my gun/scope worked out to 650 yards but unfortunately I have yet to have an opportunity at a deer at the 650 yard mark, hopefully one day I will. In the past 3 years I have killed deer at, 420 yards (3), 380 yards, 250 yards, 400 yards, and 75 yards.
 
 I shoot about 300 to 400 rounds a year, LR, on both paper and woodchucks and deer. Not near as many as these guys that shoot in Williamsport. It's probably a good thing I am 4 hours drive from Williamsport or I would be right in there talking and learning from those guys since long rang is of interest to me. I may just take another trip over to Williamsport and give it a whirl if the guys here are willing to help me out. I would truly enjoy it.
 
 As to being thin skinned, sorry, but I had to laugh at that, I am not at all thinned skinned,

.
 
 How do I kill deer at long range, you asked.
 
 I started by having a 300 win mag built on a Rem 700 action, schnieder S/S barrel, 5 1/2 contour, 27 1/2" long, McMillan GP Graphite stock, Bad Ord rings and bases, Schmidt & Bender 4 to 16 X 50 PM II scope with mil dot reticle. I am going to have a McMillan Hunter class stock bedded later this spring and I will use the GP stock I now have on that rifle for another rifle I am going to have built. Nothing real fancy or out of the ordinary about my rifle. With the scope it weighs 11 1/2 lbs, so it's not really that heavy.
 
 I set up targets at 100, 200, 300, 400, 450, 500, 550, 600, 650 yards and started shooting. When I was ON at the various yardages I documented the elevation adjustments. I do practice at those yardages every year (on paper) to ensure that I am still ON at all those various yardages. When hunting, I have my rifle sitting on a Bald Eagle front rest, a leather rear bag that all sits on a swivel bench. I had a different top made for the bench 2 years ago. The old one was 1/2 ply wood and wasn't stiff enough. The top on it now is laminated maple and it's 3" thick, very stiff now.
 
 I shoot 180gr ballistic tips at a measured velocity of 3180FPS. Those are not real hot loads, by any means.
 I use the BT's because of the accuracy and flatness in which they shoot. I know there have been many debates about using bench rest bullets on game. I do use a bench rest bullet out of my 22 CHeetah MK 1 on game and it works great.
 
 When long range hunting (for me, thats limited to 650 yards) I have the chart with all my elevation adjustments, Leica Geovids for ranging the distance to the deer, and of course my rifle set up on the front rest/rear bag on the swivel bench. When I see a deer come out of the woods (with my naked eyes) to feed in the harvested corn/bean fields I check the distance with the range finder, make the appropriate elevation adjustment, swing the bench over in the direction of the deer, get down on the rifle, get as steady as I can, wait till the deer is broadside, squeeze the 2 1/2lb trigger gently and smoothly. If it is to windy I don't shoot. If the deer isn't broadside, I don't shoot. Conditions have to be right to take the shot.
 
 If it is windy out I have another elevated stand in which to hunt from that shots of only 280 yards are made. Sometimes I stalk hunt in the woods using my carry rifle, 7mm mag. It all depends on the conditions and how long I have to hunt and how I feel like hunting that day.
 
 I am not in any way trying to convince anybody to go the LR route, but, if they are interested, I am always more then willing to help out in any way I can. I am sure that these guys that shoot at Williamsport know a lot more about shooting at much further distances then I do. I am very interested in what they have to say. I think we could ALL learn from them even if we don't ALL LR hunt.
 
 Don

P.S. Maybe a 100lb rail gun is in my future, you never know,

Darryl,
 
 What days do you have shoots in Williamsport?
 
 I would be interested in driving over one day and shoot, if that is possible.
 
 Would you or somebody else help me out? Get me on the paper at 1000 yards, that is. I have plenty of elevation adjustment left on my scope. If memory serves me correctly I have around 46" of adjustment at 100 yards.
 
 I am interested to see what kind of group I can shoot at 1024 yards (did I get the yardage right?).
 
 Don

Hello
 
 I'm back at the fire with another pack of hot Dogs this morning and Hello to all.
 
 I see some of you are still wondering and maybe confused as to what and how we do what we do.
 
 Let me answer the questions that three of you have asked.
 
 *******************************************
 
 BIG STICK----The rifle is a 338/416 Rigby IMP with a 37" barrel. The velocity I get from a 300 Gr Sierra MK with a BC of close to (Actual) .800 is 3310 FPS
 At 1000 yards I have a remaining velocity of 2188 FPS and a terminal energy of 3190 FP.
 At 2000 yards I have a remaining velocity of 1284 FPS (Below1000 to 1100 FPS goes subsonic) and energy of 1099 FP---Plenty to kill an animal at that range.
 
 ******************************************
 
 NEED ONE---Nobody said we are "HOLDING" the rifle as you would your 8 lb carry gun. Some are shot from bi-pods and some are shot from rests.
 Some of the ranges we shoot, we would NEVER try to hold a rifle and to try for a first round hit on the first shot. That would be a mistake and we may possibly hit a doe or cow that is standing close to our intended target. Our Longrange group will not shoot does or cows. We won't kill what produces the Bulls and Bucks for the future. It's not that we haven't in the past, it's just that we don't do it at all, any longer.
 
 Our procedure is to make sure there are NO hunters anywhere near the animal. We then range the animal with our military laser rangefinders. The MOST powerful and accurate you can get.
 For extremely long shots, We set the elevation clicks just HIGH enough so the bullet will go over top of the animal. This is to get our windage adjustment when we see the bullet go in and impact over top and behind the animal. This is where we have seen the animal go over to the impact and stick his nose in the hole wondering what it was that made that little noise. After that shot and the windage adjustment is put in and the excess elevation is taken back off, the next shot drops the animal.
 Sometimes we take a spotter shot at a small object such as the base of a dead tree stump or clump of dirt. From that shot we are able to do all our corrections of windage and final elevation. We swing back to the animal and kill it with the next shot.
 
 As stated earlier, the animals are not alarmed because the noise level is very faint to them from the muzzle blast. Unlike the short range shooter that shoots at 50 or 100 yards. The noise scares the hell out of them and they will take off even mortilly wounded.
 
 Seal answered somebody's question here when he explained that a wounded animal does not react the same when hit LR as up close. When we hit them, they just lay down, they don't run. They are not alarmed.
 When we see an animal that may be alive and has just laid down from being hit, (which they do almost always within 5 yards of being hit) the next shot is into him within about 10 seconds. We don't let an animal suffer and he does NOT get away from us.
 This is unlike the short range shooter that has to track a wounded animal all over the place and can't find him till hours have passed and it just may lay there suffering for a long time before it dies.
 So a point in our favor, we don't let them suffer when they are hit.
 By the way, with our powerful Bigeyes, we can see the bullet hits into the hide and that's a fact.
 Again, you must see this done to possibly believe it.
 You can buy the tape that Boyd mentioned and see actual LR kills to 1150 yards. It would be the BEST $20.00 or $25.00 you ever spent and answer most all your questions.
 
 As I also stated, we are here to help the young or old shooter/hunter every way we can to make sure we can suggest the correct equipment he must have and to help him undersatnd the ballistics of bullet flight and to make the scope corrections that are so critical to making a Longrange kill. This is of course, "IF" he is interested in LR hunting.
 
 *******************************************
 
 DON KNOWS---Here are the Match dates for 2002 at Williamsport.
 The light guns, 16 1/2 Lb shoot on Saturday and the Heavy bench guns on Sunday.
 Match # 1. May 4th and 5th
 2. May 18th and 19th
 3. June 8th and 9th
 4. June 22 and 23
 5. July 20 and 21
 6. Aug. 3 and 4
 7. Aug. 17 and 18
 8. Sept. 7 and 8
 9. Sept. 21 and 22
 10. Oct. 12 and 13
 
 World Open two day event with over 300 shooters each day from all over the World, with two classes of rifles each day, will be "JULY 6 and 7"
 Most certanly bring a rifle and shoot. in a match. Someone will be happy to get you on target.
 
 Hope to see you there.
 
 *****************************************
 
 I just ate more hot dogs "For Breakfast"??? yukkkk
 
 Hope that answered some of your questions fellows. In reality, you have to see the LR way done but, watch out, it is very addictive. Get ready to open up that wallet
 
 Darryl Cassel

Good mourning.
 
 Big Stick, the 300ultra is mostly stock,except for a Mcmillen stock and a little trueing of the action.My group and I shoot either off bi-pods or sometimes off a bench.
 
 We hunt with all legal means.
 I average 4 to 6 deer a year with a bow,I only got two this year though.I stalked and killed two bucks with my muzzle loader,one at 35 yards the other I snuck to withen 12yds when it got out of its bed and walked to me.I shot him at nine feet.
 I love to hunt with every weopon there is and killed a lot of deer but it started to get to easy with a rifle,so I started to hunt LR.Most of us hunt by other means,but when it comes to rifle season were longranging it.
 
 Of the 17,000 rounds fired last year about 10,000 were 22lr,223rem, and 308.But they where all fired at LR.Out to 400yds for the 22lr,800 for the 223 and 308.About 5,000 in pistols and the other rounds where our LR guns,300win,30-06,270win,and 300ultra.I have about 600 shots through my Ultra and I will probably get 800 or before I rebarrel.
 
 Shooting was the best part about the millitary.
 
 I useualy get 11 to 12in 5 shot groups.But you have to relize that shooting a 10in group at LR is different than hitting that 10in target with one or to shots.
 
 I cant remember who it was that said that just shooting was easy and anybody with our equipment could shoot like we do.There right for the most part.THE SPOTTER IS THE MOST IMPORTANT PERSON IN LONGRANGE.Give me a week with the proper stuff and I could teach most hunters how to be a good shooter.But it takes a looong time for someone to become a good spotter.They give you the comeups for your scope,call your hits (and misses),watches the animal and guides you to the animal wonce its down.They are useualy the most expeirenced person.

Hi SealSniper/Darryl/PBLR.Darryl do you know who PBLR is?????I'll bet you do.If anyone out there has any doubt about LRH. I urge you to buy a copy of POINT BLANK FROM LONG RANGE.If you watch the video you will have a better understanding of how it is done.We could try to explain it to you until we are blue in the face.You know the old saying a picture is worth a thousand word's.A 53 minute long video is worth a hundred thousand.There will also be a HOW-TO video released in the near future that will show HOW it is done.THE RIGHT WAY.And the SAFE WAY.If you are interested in either video e-mail [email protected] and they will hook you up.It was the best $24.95 I ever spent....

Wow, I amazed at all the uncontrolled emotion and prejudice here. I don't know about others here, but I hate it when someone tells me I can't do something, especially when I already have. I guess I consider those folks "small minded."
 
 I have been a USAF pilot for over 18 years. The the "average joe" pilot, what I do must seem extremely difficult. You know, flying supersonic, flying formation, landing big airplanes on little airfields, fling approaches down to minimums, even teaching other how to do all this. Since I have the skills to do all this, it is no big deal. However, just because "joe pilot" is small minded and can't imagine himself doing the stuff I do has no bearing on my own ability to do it.
 
 The same applies to these guys who routinely make long shots on game animals. Some of you guys need to think hard about you emotional prejudices here.
 
 Blaine

I did just that but no answer was provided.

AFP, -- most of us have no problem with long range shooting, it's just what's used for targets. -- no

That's not true "Need One"---Longrange is not just for paper targets any longer and hasn't been for about 40 plus years now. LR hunting began in the Pine Creek area of Pennsylvania in the late 50s and early 60s.
 
 It's Long range Hunting for Game "and" for Match shooting at targets if you want too.
 Sort of a duel purpose pleasure if you get my drift?
 
 If I were you, I would be ordering the tape to see how this is done and the distruction to an animal that is achieved. It will answer all the questions you are confused about, I'm sure.
 You did say you were interested in how it is done. Here's your chance.
 
 Rolly---I'm not sure of what answer you never got?
 
 Later
 Darryl

Rolly, I have several rifles that are used for LR work. The lightest is a Rem LSS with a 28" Hart barrel w/brake
 it weighs in at 11.17 lbs and is chambered in 300WBY short thoat. We use this rifle when we are going to Pack into a secluded spot sometimes a mile or so from the nearest road. I use the 178 grn Horn. AMAX with a charge of 86grn of H1000 and a Fed 215 primer. This rifle will consistantly shoot half inch 5 shot groups at 100yrds we have successfully taken targets out to 1025 yrds with this rifle. I also carry this rifle in the woods and if a longer shot presents itself I have the capability to take the shot with complete confidence. This particular rifle is topped with a 4.5x14 Leupold 50mm obj. I sent it to premier and had an external elev. adj. turrent put on. Also included in the arsenal is a 14lb 30Hart benchrest rifle a 20lb 338-378 wby mag. and a 65lb 338-378wby mag. that I just had built and have not had a chance to use it on any Long Targets. With the later 3 rifles we use the Sierra Match King Bullets 220grn 30 cal. and 300grn 338 cal. In our hunting we usually use "bigeyes" as some would call them, they consist of two bushnell spacemaster spotting scopes mounted in a aluminum bracket. Most guys who use them run the 22xwa eyepiece I personally use the 25x eyepiece. As for rangefinders We usually have at least two 1000yrd bushnell lasers mounted on and colimated with our bigeyes so if we find a target we can instantly get a range make adj to the rifle/scope and have the target neutralized in a matter of seconds that is if the target cooperates. We also take and use a barr/stroud WWII optical rangefinder for a backup. Most of the time if you have a sunny day you have to resort to the optical rangefinder because the lasers just wont work on a sunny day at extended ranges. This slows the process down a little but the end results are the same. That is if the target cooperates. What I mean by cooperate is STAND STILL we Never shoot at a moving target. Long range is a team sport and should never be attempted without a SPOTTER with experience, This is a process that take a great deal of practice by all of your TEAM. The spotter calls the shots in the bigeyes by watching the trail or wash of the bullet all the way to impact then and only then do you make adj if need be. I hope I have answered some of your questions. We are in the process of filming a How To video on long range hunting. I'll keep you informed with its progress for those who might be interested. Thank You for your interest.

Man, I wish I could find a secluded spot that was only a mile or so away from the road! [Linked Image]

NO.What do you mean MOST of us.Since when does MOST of us mean one or two people????

Kodiak..PBLR HAS ALOT OF THEM.The only bad thing is when he take's me to them he alway's blindfold's me.So I can't really help you out.Sorry....LoL!!!!!!!!

Darryl, I must say I am somewhat intrigued by this long range shooting. I have heard of a .30-378 shooting into 4 inches at 1000 yards, and the current record is a .50 BMG shooting into 2.6 inches. That is some very high levels of accuracy. You said about the 300 grains MK moving along at 2000 some feet per second at 1000 yards. That provides adequate energy and expansion, I will agree. At 2000 yards, it is still moving faster than the speed of sound, but not by much. The bullet still packs over 1000 pounds of energy. However, it is moving along at 1200 fps I think you said. That sounds pretty low for getting reliable expansion at that range. Please explain. How low a velocity do matchking bullets expand at? I do not know, that is why I am asking you fellows. Thanks

If I were you, Id shoot more does. There are way too many does out there and not enough bucks, in many areas. There is not enough competition for a doe when buck to doe ratios are large, resulting in inferior genetics. Amazingly, the best doe to buck ratio would be around 1:1, but this is probably unattainable. Still, it is suprising to see the ratios in some areas, especially ones with buck only hunting.

PBLR, with that Bushnell laser rangerfinder set-up of yours how do figure the "up hill/down hill" degrees? Hope that made sense, if not I'll elaborate more.

Darryl,
 
 Thanks for the info. I will be over one weekend and shoot if there is an open bench.
 
 A side note: You really should cut down on those hotdogs, you are going to get fat - like me.

Don

P.S. I will bring some smoked PA deer sausage. Better for you then those hotdogs.

Big Sky, Our lasers are for getting a precise range on a target. When we are hunting a spot where we are going to have steep angles up or down we just run a different chart with the correct angles plugged in. Usually angles don't exceed 45degrees where we shoot from. You can figure your angles out with a simple level (a cup of water will work if needed) and a 50cent protractor. We take care of these details well before season. I think this may have answered your question.

Yes, that answered my question, but I'm having trouble seeing how I could apply that out here while chasing antelope or mule deer. They have a nasty tendancy to not be in the same place twice. I'm having visions of myself running around spilling a glass of water and fiddling with a protractor...not going to happen. There are a few places they frequent and some pre-ranging and calculating might work, but for the most part it would be pretty tough...on account the darn critters show up where ever they want to. Is there a small device similar in size to a Bushnell rangefinder that can quickly figure angles?

Big Stick - I always wondered why you were reluctant to give the range of your longer kills, I had no idea that this was such a touchy subject. Bet you started grining the minute you read the title of the tread.

Big Sky,
 Sorry I am not aware of any at the moment and really to tell the truth haven't looked for a better method yet but now you have me thinking. I am sure there is some type of critter out there that could be used for that intended purpose. Try asking on LRH maybe someone over there could help US out with this one.

Guys -
 I have a copy of the Point Blank at Long Range (PBLR, Darryl) video, and, to all those who say it can't be done, I say, send $24.95 to Keenvision and watch it happen.
 
 You can actually see the heat signature (I guess that's what it is) of the bullet as it arcs in on the deer. Just incredible. I've just about worn the tape out watching it, and just looking at it is addictive - the missus is hiding the checkbook, Boyd

Till two months ago, I figured long range hunting was just a stunt. Not now.
 
 No, Keenvision is not paying me a commission, but, I hope they put me on the list for the next video.
 
 R-WEST

RWEST,
 We are currently working on a HOW TO video so that the ever so increasing number of folks getting into long range are showed how to do things correctly. People must first be educated in this sport before they just go slinging lead. I'll post when the video is complete. Point Blank From Long Range VOL2 is gonna be a dandy.
 P.S. I'll put you on the list. THANK YOU !

Hello Big Hunter and Cazador and Kodiak
 
 Big Hunter---- the MK will expand at that range (2000 yards) and a bit further without a problem. We have killed probably 25 elk now at ranges that are unbelievable and have only recovered two bullets that did not penetrate all the way through and they were just on the far side and just under the hide. Both were mushroomed perfectly with about half of the core left and the jacket peeled back the way you would want to see a bullet expand. The exit holes on all the kills were very large and some penetrated one or both shoulders. When hit behind the shoulder slightly, the exit holes are the size of a grapefruit to that of a vollyball. We have killed one elk at 500 yards, The rest were all over 1100 Yds.
 
 Cazador
 In north central PA, with all the doe permits that have been given out over the years, your lucky to see a deer for the most part in our area. I remember seeing herds of 50 and 60 go by me back in the 60s. Nice bucks were everywhere. Lots of Doe too.
 Now the game commision and Gary Alt wants you to believe that to kill as many doe as possible will really bring the herd back? This is nonsense and the city hunters are buying it because they can go kill more deer now.
 We live in the area and see what is there and whats coming to the feeders on our land. I have been in this area for 40 years and seeing the herd reduced because of Money hungry State Government legislative bodies, is sickening. They are pressured by the State Forrest because the deer eat the small buds of young seedlings and stop the growth of that tree. No future growth of trees so, that means less money to the State from log sales.
 Now comes the Insurance companies. They are pressuring the polititions in Harrisburg to lower the herd because of deer, car claims. No doubt payoffs going on too.
 
 We the hunters will suffer in the long run. It's hurting the economy in the small mountain towns right now and has been for a few years now.
 Talk about keeping a young hunter away from hunting. How many of todays youth will go out hunting and freeze his rear end off and NOT see a deer all day? This is happening in our area.
 
 If anything turns him away from hunting it will be because of the absence of deer, buck or doe.
 
 That's what's happening in the Northern counties of PA.
 There's counties that need the doe thinned out but not our area.
 
 Kodiak---Your in a different situation by far in your area. However, I have a friend in Delta Junction AK that is a LR hunter and he goes in and is dropped off by Helicoptor and stays there for weeks on end.
 
 Have a good one---
 
 I hate hot dogs now. I'll bring marshmellows next time.
 
 Darryl

Big Sky,
 I made a post on LRH(Angles) Lets see what the guys come up with.

PBLR...Dave King will have a field day with that one

PBLR, thanks! I'll be sure to check out.

Darryl
 By saying helicopter I hope you mean float plane. It's a tad illegal to use a helicopter for hunting transportation.

Butch
 
 One of my CIA secrets, now I got to kill you.
 I'll let you in on a secret but nobody else can read this OK?
 
 A small protractor glued on a small level works real nice for sighting along the rifle stock or barrel and getting the angle you intend to shoot. All you need is drop charts for every 5 degrees angle for your load and it works real nice. You can also mount this on the side of your stock with a horizontal line printed on the stock. As the rifle is raised or lowered in the bags, just turn the protactor/level till the bubble is in the middle and read what degree the line is cutting.
 There are other methods but, that's enough CIA stuff for one day.
 
 Later
 Darryl

R-WEST.Sorry to hear about the check book thing.The way I got around the money thing with my wife was.When you buy a new gun or rangefinder or something like that.You have to buy her a Diamond ring or a new car or something along those line's.Alway's worked for me.................................

Kodiac
 
 He is dropped off by the chopper and also uses a snow machine and a small trailor with runners on to take his gear in.
 He also works with animal bioligists, which helps.
 Float planes are used mostly though. The chopper deal was quite sometime ago from what I was told.
 When he takes off on his snow machine, you never know when he's coming back and with what on the trailer. Great place up there.
 
 later
 Darryl

Boyd,
 Your scaring me with that one. DAVE, IF YOU HAPPEN TO READ THIS PLEASE KEEP YOUR REPLY AS BASIC AS POSSIBLE. hehehe

PBLR.CHECK YOUR E-MAIL...

Darryl
 The snow machine is legal, but I wouldn't crawl into the helicopter with him to go hunting. They can only be used legally for rescueing hunters. Now, if you knew you needed rescued in advance(because you are going to shoot a moose at long range=lots of packing), maybe it would be OK.

OK Laser Butch--I changed my mind and will give you CIA secret #2
 
 When you were up at my place you tried the Military Laser. It has the Horizontal and verticle degree angles built into the Azemeth base. You missed that. I didn't mention any of the CIA stuff then, but I'm in a chartible mood now.
 
 I also have two sets of military Bigeyes that once the tripod bubble is level, they will also give you both readings.
 
 The military lasers are looking better all the time????
 
 
 Later
 Darryl

AFP. maybe you should ask a few 'Joe pilots' what they think of what you do before announcing what you think 'Joe pilot' is thinking. As An average 'Joe pilot' most of my ilk realize the kind of flying you do is specialized and requires learned not born skills. Most of those I know who fly also realize that the Government spent a wad of money to have you learn those skills and that a lot of us would also aquire those skills if qranted the same resources as the US Airforce. Happy landings and may the tail always trail.pak

Just a few observations on this wrangle. I have been to Bodines and watched them shoot. For anyone that has never been to a 1000yd BR competition, you wouldn't believe it without seeing it. I know a few folks that shoot there, but none of these fellers that are posting here. When Alex Wardrop was still building rifles he did a few small jobs for me. Alex once built me an economy rodent/deer thumper in 25-06, on my FN M98 action, that should've cost three times as much, if accuracy was the criteria for payment. I believe he was involved in your sport some years back.
 
 One of you should've pointed out that the 3.151" record is for 10 shots, not 5 as it is in several other record groups one sees jabbered about. I have an old bud that builds longrange varminters which are essentially 1000yd BR guns. Don't think he competes much at Bodines, but I believe he still belongs to the club. Lives in Potter County, lives to vaporize woodchucks. Drives the world's ugliest black GMC truck in existence, so you may know him on sight. I have seen him liquify woodchucks at close to a 1000yds and bury quite a few more in dirt at well beyond that distance. He's an old buddy of Frank "Ballon-arse" Webber.
 
 I have used some of the gear these folks have talked about: Bushnells in the brackets, Barr & Stroud optical range finder (which I thought were Canadian WWI artillery in origin) and have seen the wash of the bullet in humid air, at over a 1000yds, on it's way towards a rodent.
 Folks whose experience with rifles runs mainly to offhand shots with deer rifles and varminting from a Harris bipod with 220 Swifts have no idea what's involved in the LR stuff these birds are talking about.
 
 I hunt in Tioga County myself. Don't quite agree with the comments about our PA deer management, but to each their own.

Darryl,
 Yes, I caught the details of the Russian Laser (Are you kidding,Man I have that thing Lasered into my head)
 Gonahav1 no doubt about it. Did you see the slope dope? That thing is pretty interesting. Looks somewhat easy to make though. I had to make a note of that thing so as not to forget to mention it in the tape. (Boyd, Where are you?)

I'm right here......

I checked my email Nothing Whats up? I just got back from my dads birthday party.

Just got back in and tried getting caught up on this thread and have a few comments:
 
 1. It doesn't matter how far from the road a long range hunter gets, any hunter I know shoots game where legal, if I could hunt off the side of the road, see game and enjoy it I would!!! The little patch of woods I deer hunt in is only 400 yds from the road, but that's where the deer live!! Should I walk farther and not see deer so I can say I wasn't near a road??
 
 2. It is clear to me which side is loosing their temper on this thread and I commend Darryl/Boyd/and sealsniper for their patience with it.
 
 3. Nobody is saying new hunters should take long range pokes without the proper equipment and training! If they read a thread like this and it interests them maybe in their youthful enthusiasm they'll hook up with someone who knows what they are doing and will learn some real marksmanship skills.
 
 4. As far as anti's reading this and getting a bad idea of hunting....I'm convinced we(board members) are the elite...I normally believe in equality in most issues but when it comes to hunting and shooting we are not all created equal and most of the dimwits and yahoo's I encounter in gunstores and deer lockers scare the crap out of me and I often wish they weren't allowed access to sharp sticks let alone rifles!!
 
 5. We underestimate the potential of our equipment and ourselves sometimes! I watched badger's daughter shoot a 4-5" group at 250 yds with a Mod 7 while using a bipod for the first time!! This was with a 5 second countdown not even taking the amount of time normally associated with this type of shot.....
 
 6. The guys who are posting on this subject who have done it are willing to wait as long as it takes to ensure success they aren't driven by the need for a trophy as many other hunters out beating the brush are.
 
 7. I try to respect those who put the time and money into doing something right and cannot fault them for doing something differently!
 
 I also don't believe in irresponsible hunters taking hail Mary shots at game I understand fully Sonnie's position and others, but these guys are not the average bears!!
 
 8. The kind of slobs who don't follow up on shots at game or leave them to die slow and painful deaths are the problem not the methods some choose to use for hunting. Just like the anti's blame guns for violence it is the person/human that is the problem not the instrument.
 
 Mike

SNIPER,
 
 Obliged for the particulars..........
 
 DC,
 
 I thought 2K would be pushing the limits of staying supersonic,with most every concoction I could fathom.
 
 What sorta accuracy expectations might you have with that rifle,at 2K,given favorable atmospheric conditions?...................

Daryll, deer population characteristics can be very diverse, even within small areas.
 
 All this talk about LRH has gotten me thinking what my Super Match could do. I use a Mil dot scope and if I zero it at 600 yds, I can shoot from 100 to 900 yds without adjusting the scope using 168gr HPBT's. I have always used mil dot range estimating, but that does get difficult as one approaches 1000 yds, especially on game animals. Guess a 308 at that range is more of a man killer. Then again a good shot with match kings might be enough out to... well, I dont know.
 
 I think I will stick to punching targets at those ranges, but the techniques are the same. Except, in my case, I am going to have to keep away from the expensive equipment. Also, I think I will keep the computers at home.

Big Stick
 
 The accuracy is good enough to kill elk at a bit further then 2000 yards.
 
 At one mile (1760 yards) during a practice session last year & with VERY little wind, I was able to put 5 rounds in the area diameter of a basketball. Had about 30 witnesses that day.
 The rifle has shot 10 shots inside of 7.750" at 1022 yards at Williamsport.
 
 We have hunting friends at Williamsport who are reaching out a bit further on game with the SAME chambering as I have.
 
 We normally like to keep the shots inside of 1500 yards but, we know the rifle is capable of much further.
 
 Darryl Cassel

Well lookie here, Rick we have just acquired a new board for you, LONG RANGE. while I for one will never condone shooting at animals at such ranges it's easy to see some people have an interest in long range shooting and the investment in equipment to do it. Bet Rick will create a board for you right here. We don't know where your board was but seems like it moved over here, glad to have you, welcome aboard. Sounds like there is much knowledge amoung you for your sport and everyone is willing to share it, good for you. When it comes down to it, I think most will drop out because of the time and expense involved but I also believe you are creating many hunters who will be trying shots almost impossible for them to make a good clean humane kill. These hunters will with their real everyday department store hunting rifles be trying any shot presented because, like you say, they are doing it why shouldn't I, it's legal.
 Rick what you say, you build these guys a fireplace and let them build their fire under their topic for all who are interested.

Need One
 
 That's exactly why we are trying to educate those to the sport so they DON"T try it without the proper equipment and "lots" of practice.
 
 I agree, the hunter should NOT grab his sporter deer rifle and try this. The factory Sendaros, larados and such are the MINIMUM to use for this type shooting unless the person is WELL trained.
 
 
 Like I mentioned before, just because a person can walk into his gun shop and buy a longrange rifle with a LR scope on does NOT make him a LR hunter. This person needs to have lots of practice and understand ballistics and what that rifle is capable of. He must know what the change of impact is when he turns his scope turrets to make a longer shot. He must know what the impact change is at every 100 yards of distance he plans to shoot. Most hunters know nothing about this. He must be a good reloader and use the highest BC bullet available for his caliber. He also must practice year round to perfect that skill.
 
 This is the reason we are here, just to answer questions from those who want to know how it's done. A few like yourself are not interested but, there are many here, at least the majority, who are very interested from the way it sounds.
 
 I get emails all the time asking questions. Why not answer them on a fine forum such as this and others also???? The sport has been very POPULAR for years and is getting more so now. Those of us who have been doing this for years can certainly contribute valuable information to the person wanting to get into it.
 
 To each his own.
 
 Darryl Cassel
 
 As an add on, One of the longrange rifles I happen to have is one of the MOST powerfull there is. I am able to make extreme longrange shots with it and have. The normal longrange rifle will NEVER be able to accomplish what my large rifle has and should never be attemted unless that person has equal power and knows how to use it. A Sendaro or Larado such as a 300 Win mag or 300 Ultra mag with good reloaded ammo and high BC bullets of heavy weight are certainly good enough for 1000 yard killing on game such as deer and elk IF THE PERSON PRACTICES A LOT.
 There are no monitary limits a person can put on a sport if he REALLY enjoys it.
 He will find a way to purchase what is needed sooner or later.

In regards to deer populationa in PA. I was raised there and we hunted the North central area around the Renova area. Even then the deer herds were shrinking in all the hardwood areas. Where I lived, in SW PA, you hardly ever seen a deer. Now in SW Pa, they are so thick that it isn't day goes by you do not see 5 or 6 hit by autos in a 5 mile stretch where my folks and brother live. There is a lot of reclaimed strip mines in the area that provide perfect habitat. They are breeding like rabbits. It's not uncommon to see triplet fawns. Twins are the norm. The only thing there is more of is turkeys.
 
 I agree with N.O. that a forum needs added for LR shooting discipline. I don't agree with hunting that way and surely can't stop it, so education is the next best thing.
 
 I ran off at the mouth the other day, and I apologize. Sometimes I impress myself a lot more than I do otherfolks

PBLR, Thanks for the information. I find your equipment and ability at hitting targets both paper and animate, interesting. What effect does humidity, elevation, and the barometer play on your shooting and how do you compensate for it? Surely, at 1000 yds, air density plays a substantial part on bullet flight.

Saddlesore
 
 Thank you for the kind reply especially concerning the deer populations.
 
 Being so close in local as to where you lived at one time (Renova) as to where I'm at (up Rt 120 26 miles) you saw the change back several years ago. It is MUCH worse now in the Centre , Cameron and elk counties. Even southern Potter is becoming terrible.
 
 I have friends in the Midland area and they are saying the same as you are about the overpopulation there.
 
 I realize there are areas of PA that need thinned out but the Norther tier counties are not the ones to try it. This is where I feel Gary Alt and the game commission are making a huge mistake.
 
 They need to STOP doe hunting there (in the counties I mentioned) for about two years and have a horn point restriction. This will bring the bucks back to a resonable size again. I remember the 60s and deer were everywhere in those counties.
 
 I wish you had the damn elk down your way too. I had 8 bulls in the yard not long ago. They come it and tear down my electric fence and start working on my fruit trees. Lucky I have a big fence around the garden. The Damn things even come up on my porch looking for food. Sling shots and pellet guns run them off for a while but, not long. We just keep looking for them in the yard and run them out. We sort of learn to live with it but, they are a real pain. They should have killed a lot more of them then they did this past season. An elk herd of over 750 and they kill less then 50??? Talk about accidents waiting to happen (and have) on rt 555 and 120.
 
 As for the buck situation, I wont kill a spike or forkhorn just to say I killed a deer. When I kill one, I want a nice one or he will live another year or two, and get bigger.
 I don't have to kill anything to be a happy LR OR shortrange hunter.
 You would not believe the bucks we have left go over the years while longrange hunting.
 
 Nice talking with you.
 
 Darryl Cassel

The only thing I have to add, is that a dummy that lobs a shot at long range that is not prepared, is still a dummy at 200yds..,It does not make him more ethical. The range has nothing to do with his ability to make a clean shot. In other words if he is likely to wound an animal at 600yds, you can almost bet he can make a crippled animal at 200yds. So keeping his shots inside of "ethical range" does not do any good, because he isnt prepared to do either. To say that a sane person can read this, and expect to make a 1000yd shot is ridiculous, as most rifleman know their limits. If they don't, they don't have any business shooting at any range....

Rolly,
 There really isn't any one partucular thing that would throw your bullet path off substancially as far as conditions( considering your hunting the same general area) Now from PA to say Colorado, Now you have major changes. Usually it consists of a change of several conditions to really bugger things up. But what we do is WATCH the weather conditions and LOG avg. from year to year. This will establish a base or starting point for your particular area. Check your different hunting locations on your topo maps for elev. ( We have spots that range from 700ft to almost 2000ft and we have different click charts for each spot. If you are ever in doubt about things as far as cond. changing your impact point FIRE A SPOTTER ROUND and then make adj. I hope this helps!

Darryl, When I was in my early teens , we had one of the $1, 99 year leases on a hunting camp in from Medix Run. When Curtis Wright took it over for testing, we lost it. The area was abandoned I guess, as you can now get back into it, and my brother has found the old foundation.
 
 Here in CO , they tried the point restriction on deer an it did not work, the same in a few other western states. The problem is that it puts pressure on the bigger bucks when the hunting season is in rut or sometimes even pre rut and breeding is affected. What has finally worked is going to a draw only hunt and limiting the buck tags, allowing more to mature before they are killed off. After about 15 years of poor deer hunting, we are just starting to see better and more bucks since this was instituted two years ago.
 
 As for the elk, many people tried to convince the RMEF not to reintroduce elk into such areas as they have been . I understand the potatoe farmers up there are having a time of it. 25 elk aren't bad, 750, your'e talking a lot of distruction. At first people think they are nice to have around and then find out they are a lot worse than deer

Wind, and Inexperience are two conditions that will ruin the path of a bullet. Both should not be taken lightly.
 DISCIPLINE, SAFETY, PRACTICE, SPOTTERS AND ABOVE ALL PAY ATTENTION TO DETAILS. LONG RANGE HUNTING IS A TEAM SPORT. NEVER TRY THIS ALONE.

Saddlesore
 
 We were almost neighbors. I've hunted that entire area for 40 years now. Up rt 872 out of Sinnemahoning and out Wykoff and drop into Medix run on the Quahanna hwy.
 
 We have been going to Colorado the last 12 or 13 years and hunt out of Glenwood.
 
 Where you located in Colorado?
 
 We took in an old outfitter and some folks that hunt there from California. They get their elk most every year off the longrange guns. I think the boys from California have got 8 so far off the 338/416 Long gun as they call it.
 
 See, we never know who we are talking to here and we could very well have met if you were still In PA.
 
 My 100 acres is Mix Run just 4 Miles out of Driftwood---Know of it?
 
 Got a name besides Saddlesore?
 
 Later
 Darryl Cassel

Darryl. I did not live in Renovo, Just hunted there. From Driftwood down to Hiner Run. In the early 50's a nieghbor of ours moved to Renovo to run the YMCA which catered to the railroad people then. His name was Leroy Good. wife's name was Clara. Both Gone now, but he had three daughters, Patty, Donna, Kaye. I think Patty lives down the river towards Coultersport Her husband's name is Pete, but I don't know the last name. She must be about 65 now. Donna still lives in the area.I don't know where Kaye is.
 
 My name is Vince Mautino. I grew up near Monongahela in SW PA . My Folks, brother, daughter and son live in that area now. I live in Colorado Springs.
 
 My last deer in PA was the day I graduated from Penn state. We had gone to Renovo to say good by to Leroy and family and stay overnight. The next day we took the road over the mountains to State College. Along the way, a doe jumped off a bank on the opposite side of the road, cleared the far lane and landed on the hood of my 56 chevy.
 
 I hunted the FlatTops Wilderness area NE\of Glenwood fro about 15 years. Had arun where I took 8 bulls in 8 years plus one in Canada. It got too crowed there with outfitters and I moved to the Gunnison area.
 
 I'm pretty well gimped up now and would ahve to quit if it weren't for my mules. but I still take an elk every year. Maybe two this coming year. I eat one whole elk a year myself.
 
 See, we might disagree on hunting methods, but we all have someting in commom.I shoot all my elk within 50 yards usually. I think the furthest was 150, and the one in Canada was about 325 yds

Post deleted by saddlesore

DC,
 
 Thanks for the info,at 2K.............

Saddlesore you are repeating yourself. You must'a ate one too many jelly donuts today;)

Saddlesore
 
 Excellent information and i know all the areas you mentioned.
 
 One day we may meet and i will have a few dozen jelly donuts for you and the mules.
 
 Two of my friends have mules and they pack and drag elk the best of any animal I have been around.
 
 You take care and hope to see you someday. We always hunt the 3rd season. Wife and I set the tent at 7500 feet and don't come out for about 9 days.
 
 Later
 Darryl Cassel
 PS The smell of burning gun powder still makes me horney. Maybe why I like to hunt with the wife???

Saddlesore, -- that Gunnison area has been my stomping grounds for a bunch of years. Which direction do you hunt out of there? The hotel is a stop with the basement first priority. I hunt all directions out of there, depends on season and weather. I will probably hunt the Durango area this year. -- no

Pak,
 
 My intent is NOT to slam all non-military pilots. I do not think you are a "Joe pilot." "Joe pilot" is just another loser who happens to be a pilot. He is of the same ilk as those are who told me I could never become a USAF pilot.
 
 When you said "a lot of us would also aquire those skills if qranted the same resources" you hit the nail on the head, made the very point I'm trying to make, and showed that you are certainly not "Joe pilot."
 
 The very same concept applies to these guys sucessfully making ultra long range shots on game animals. MOST of us, if we practiced hard enough with the right equipment, could do what they do.
 
 Blaine

NO. I hunt North and then west of Gunnison, We take the Oil Creek road , up past Mill Creek and then go into the Castles and hunt from the there. Up towards the Anthracites. Up over Storm Mt pass towards Soap Basin and some southward.
 
 Sorry about the double post. I was using the wifes Notepad and for some reason if you hit a certain key, everything goes away. I retyped, not realizing it posted.

DC, BOYD, ROTR, and the rest of you Long Range nuts... just joined this forum and I am here as a DDC ( deciple of DC ) somtimes I kill me....
 anyway I can see that this could be a fun place to spread the word..... you guys have done a fine job... funny how once DC posts the facts and informs the non-believers in the forums they tend to sit up and listen....

Wyo,
 Hey don't you know matchkings are not a hunting bullet , and nuetralize is not an acceptable word for kill. 338-378

PBLR....
 
 Ya know your right, those darn matchkings.... must be the problem!!!
 
 I keep aimin' at stuff at 100 yards but I never seem to hit anything until it's over 500 yards... They must not start workin' until 500 yards.....

Wyo,
 I sure am glad you used the word HIT, instead of strike hell you would have been starting an air war then.
 
 It really sucks when santa claus sh*ts in your easter basket!!!!

How about the word WHACK.That's a classic.When are we leaving tommorrow?

Wyo,
 Did ya ever take notice to what young kids can do with bicycles these days ?? We thought we were cool just poppin a wheely , or jumpin a ramp. THATS AWESOME
 The things you can do with a little imagination and will power. Don't ya think?

ASS,
 Now, Whack is perfect and legidimate use of the Pennsylvania language code 0u812.

GOOD ONE!!!!!!!!!!

Darryl, Hmmmmm, let me see, CO, elk, Glenwood Springs, Long Range, 3rd season....
 
 Does ******ation Ridge sound familiar??? Try filling in the blanks. If it is where you hunt, you'll know and I don't want to give it completely away.

Hello Ric
 
 DDC----That's funny.
 
 Most of the fellows over here are interested in hearing about the LR way but, some are traditionalist and that's fine too.
 
 Were not trying to get the hunters to change their style at all. There's certainly enough longrange hunters now. We just want to inform those who are getting into it ,as of late, to please learn to do it correctly. If I can help out in any way, based on the experiance gained over the years, I will.
 
 By the way, are you still "confused" as to the cartridge we were talking about.
 Going with the 300 Ultra or the Tomahawk?
 Adding a 6.5 in there somewhere????
 
 Have a good one
 Darryl

Muley
 
 By gosh, you know my area. SHHHHH--
 
 How are you? Do you have a young son that I always kid about crawling up in the elk rib cage because of all the blood he had on his sweat shirt after he carried the liver back to camp???
 
 I think I know you but, not sure. Friend of Tom G.?
 
 Shoot me an Email Dcassel@aol.com
 
 Darryl

Dc,
 
 I guess I am just impressed by the way you tactfully and methodically spell out the facts and truths of this sport. I tend to get a little emotional when I feel some of us get attact. ( WHO me.... ;-) ) I try to walk away from the keyboard and come back but it doesn't always happen.
 I'm not blowing sunshine up you a$$ ..... but your one of the best spokesmen of this sport. You have enough expierience and time in the trenches that most can't argue with.
 
 I wish I would have learned the "DOD" ( disciplines of Darryl ) haaaa I still kill me... at a much younger age, I was always interested in the l o n g r a n g e stuff but I never had a teacher.... I would love to be able to inform and teach ... but I lack the expierience...
 
 As far as my new toy.. I had a deal with a guy awhile back that came together at the last minute...
 
 It's gonna be a 6.5/284 this year.... besides I need ALOT more trigger time before I go past 1K....
 
 Next year ( if all goes well ) will be the 300 Ultra.. maybe they will have the good brass available then.
 
 Here's the specs on her....
 
 28" Hart barrel
 8 twist # 5 contour fluted
 winchester mod. 70 long action
 Jewel HVR trigger
 McMillan M40A1 stock ( woodland camo )
 bead blast all metal and teflon coat it...
 
 The smith is cutting the chamber for Lapua brass.
 
 
 what ya think?????

Ric
 
 Thank you for the kind words.
 
 Your new outfit sounds great. I'm sure you will like it very much. The 6.5/284 is a good cartridge and is VERY accurate. The 1000 yard Williamsport light gun Score record was held by that one for quite sometime.
 
 The Hoover family all shoot 6.5/284 rifles there and they do fantastic with it.
 
 Take care.
 DC

Figured that might be you guys. I've never been over to meet you, but I think one of my buddies did a 4-5 years ago. He'd have been driving my maroon F150 extended cab 4x4. Mid 30's and if I remember, VERY impressed with your setup. I see you every year from a couple ridges away. Guess I'll have to drive over and say hi this year, now that I know you!

Yes Muley stop over.
 
 Ray Romain (Gunsmith), his son, my wife and I will be over there. You might want to look to your right a bit also. We sometimes set up over where we have the tent and from there we can cover the end of the mountain that you mentioned.
 We may send Ray and his boy over at the normal spot and Carol and I may cover that other spot. You would be to our left and now that I think about it, you may not be able to see us because it is in very thick cover with a decent opening for us to shoot out of.
 
 If I see someone waving over there, I'll know it's you. I have ranged that spot and it is 3600 Yards from us to that one high spot to our left. Stop over if you get a chance. We get there on Monday or Tuesday and set up camp and just enjoy the hiking and views for a few days before the season comes in.
 
 Take care and thanks for responding.
 
 Darryl Cassel

AFB,
 Your right most people,if given the right equipment and trigger time could do what we do.But most people,if they put enough effort into it,could have graduated at the top of there class also.Thats the thing most hunters could do it they just wont put in the time to get it right,and therefore have no buissiness trying.

DC: You guys are making me homesick. I lived a few miles up the frying Pan outside Basalt. Outside Carbondale and finally outside Glenwood also. Had the last house on the left before Ski Sunilight outside Glenwood.
 
 I met my "better half" there. She is 3 generations from that valley. New Castle, Silt and Rifle. Her family are all still in the valley except brother in Alaska.
 
 I've been looking for a place up in the Meeker area maybe to move back again.
 
 Just thinking about it has put a smile on my face this morning anyway...
 
 Cheers
 
 tex

Hello Tex
 
 We have hunted near Ski Sunlight and very familar with all the areas you mentioned .
 
 Been hunting out there the last 12 or 13 years in a row.
 
 We look forward to going back every year.
 
 Have made many friends there and enjoy their life style.
 
 I have a friend from Pennsylvania who just moved from Glenwood (lived there about 3 years) and bought a house near Grand Junction.
 
 Hope you get back to your wifes area again.
 
 
 Darryl

Long range naa, short range is the way to go, and its harder to get that close. Try taking a deer right under the stand, you'll probably miss it with that long range rig that some pro-staffer talked you in to buying. Now I suspect that there is a place for long range hunting for expert shooters, you get good at what you practice. 111 deer ago I said to myself, Im starting to learn something here. About 300 yards is about max, for a sure killing shot, anything further should be avoided by all as wind plays a factor. A good military sniper can make a head shot at 400 yards, after that they dont care where they hit on the target as long as it is out of commition. Deer are different as you must execute a humane shot in a vital area. A good police chief would never allow a precision sniper shot on a bad guy beyound 100 yards to turn him off.
 
 Its nice to own a Beanfield rifle but be careful how you use it. i know one guy that watched a big buck at the edge of a field wishing he had a long range rifle to shoot 500 yards. So I walked the 500 yards and 50 yards more back in the woods, set up a tree stand and nailed the buck, at 20 yards under the stand, thats called hunting. On the other hand I have done a lot of long range shooting, at targets, thats why I don't shoot at deer that far away, targets don't run off and die wounded. Come to think of it I don't Bow hunt for the same reason.

John
 
 I'm sorry but, your post is certainly NOT very accurate and I see you have never been around longrange hunting or the accuracy we can achieve.
 
 I would suggest you go to a 1000 yard range and I invite you to come to the Williamsport, PA 1000 yard club. We have over 200 competitors every two weeks at our matches.
 
 Watch how many 4" to 8"---ten shot groups are fired that day IN THE WIND at our mountain top range. Then go home and check your computer ballistics program and run the 220 to 240 gr Sierra MK bullets out to 1000 plus yards.
 You will find that many of the calibers used will have more energy left at 1000 yards then a 30/06 does at the muzzle.
 By the way, the World record ten shot group at 1000 yards is 3.151" and the 5 shot 1000 yard record is 1.500" at 1000 yards. I don't believe you have ever been around that kind of accuracy?
 
 After doing that, then come back and tell us it can't be done.
 
 100 deer????????
 Many of us old timers have killed a lot more deer then that.
 Add another 20 elk to the figures too.
 As far as tree stands, I know all about them as, I'm also a bow hunter.
 
 If a person has NEVER seen or done something, they can't possibly comment on it accuratly. They are only guessing and commenting on what they THINK can or can't be done.
 
 We have done Longrange hunting for years and have been VERY successful at it.---Trust me.
 
 There's a Longrange video out by Keenvision Video that shows about 11 or 12 deer kills out to 1150 Yards that you really should see. It lasts about an hour and cost $24.95. If your interested, here is the Email address to purchase one. keenvisionvideo@suscom.net
 It will make a believer out of you or anyone else for that matter.
 
 Darryl Cassel

John,
 
 Ya know it never fails, you go through all this BS and still after hundreds of posts you have a guy who obvioulsy never read all of the previous posts. And if he did he obvioulsy didn't understand.
 Not sure what Counter Sniping has to do with hunting. Your even wrong about the sniping issues both Military and LE.
 You call yourself a hunter after you "stole" another guys buck ???? You didn't do a damn thing to earn that buck. You buddy did 95% of the work. THAT AIN"T HUNTING.
 
 How in the hell can you call that hunting????
 
 Killing 100 deer doesn't make you a hunter either.
 
 If you we my friend or hunting buddy and I told you a story about a buck I saw and then you went and shot it... you wouldn't be a friend or a hunting buddy anymore and you'd need dental work.
 
 unfreakingbelievable.......

Hi Ric and Darryl....You guy's sure have a way with word's...Both of you are tring to explain thing's that are way over some people's head's.But I have to commend you for keeping after it...Some people are just too thick headed to learn new thing's..You know the (I CAN'T DO IT SO YOU CAN'T EITHER....)

John,
 
 If hunting is getting close why did you put up a tree stand? Why not just sneak up on the deer on the ground? The point here is you still "ambushed" the deer, only you did it within your shooting ability. No different then a guy who is fully capable of "ambushing" said animal at much longer distances. The only difference I see is that the "Long Range" hunter has spent more time then you perfecting their skills.
 
 Don [Linked Image]

Sorry guys. I made a post above and all can see I put my name to it "Don" but Dave's handle is on it. Dave uses my computer to make posts on this site because since the software update he can't post with his system. I didn't check before I entered my post that Dave's handle was active.
 
 Sorry for any confusion.
 
 Don [Linked Image]