long range accubond groups, two in one out

Been playing with these since I got my 7 lrm.... they've shown potential, but every time I think I'm on to something, the third shot is 'out'. My Smith said to try another bullet add they were doing that to him and other guys with his rifles.

Had anyone experienced this?

These are from today.

What is your OAL? If you start by kissing the lands and seat deeper by .005 they should start to group better as long as your brass is concentric. If brass is not concentric not much will help. It follows the computer adage..junk in is junk out..

Bill

That is a bullet jacket issue, send them back to nosler and tell them they are junk, or throw them in a lake and try your luck with a different lot.

were they 2nds?

I've heard that some rifles fire the first bullet on a cold barrel slightly outside the group of the subsequent shots - is this the case here? Oops, reread your initial post - it's the third shot that wanders.

Seat them deeper Casey -

I started with a kiss, then .010 off. Groups got better the farther away I got. I need to keep testing with a bigger jump, maybe that will help.

Heavywalker, why do you think that is a jacket issue?

They Are not 2nds.

Yes -

If you are only 0.01 off, I'd then try .04 and then 0.07. Refine from there.

Bedding................

Scope, scope mounts, scope rings.

Scope is a hd5 zeiss, ring/bases are one piece talley lw's I lapped myself.

Stick, I thought bedding too.

Oh it's bedding..................(hint)

Jacket issue is rightt shoot five and bet 3 are in and 2 out

You guys really know your stuff.

This is hilarious!...........

Originally Posted by firstcoueswas80

Scope is a hd5 zeiss, ring/bases are one piece talley lw's I lapped myself.

Stick, I thought bedding too.

Don't know if it relates to your problem but there have been a few threads on lapping Talley LW's and it seem to be a no no with them

Spin drift most likely. Combined with inferior bedding and hard jackets will do that every time. Are you sure it's not holding one and throwing two?
Just thinking out loud here....

Well, since the first two are usually nearly giving, I would think that it's thrusting the third.

My talleys on my 257 are lapped as well, never had an issue with them.

I just lapped these rings, our was gong the range thing before I lapped them.

Bedding.....................(grin)

Stick, I got it.

Asked the Smith about that."I don't think so, out came out pretty well."

I'm taking it to him this weekend, as the predator action isn't ejecting properly. I'll have him check it out to.

Tell him I said so.

Laughing.............

I'll do that...

For the record, I think you are correct, but I'm not a gun Smith.

I've got the inside scoop and ain't guessin'........(grin)

Stick, it seems pretty egotistical that you, without even asking any questions, proclaim "Bedding" to be the problem, as if it could not possibly be any other thing. That usually bites folks on the ass eventually.

You'll have to pardon my knowing...while you guess................(hint)

I'd say bedding too, check of chipped coatings under the area it screws into.

That or the bedding wasn't done stress free.

Try both, but I'm not one to brag about bedding......

VLD type bullets are normally harder to get the seat just right. Good job

Yep...that is what it is!..................

It made a HUGE difference on my 6x45!

Bedding being f'd, that is

For example:

6x45 Faux Ti, SWFA10X, '335, 55NBT, yada, yada

Compiled looks like this:

90 Scenars:

Compiled:

Stick suggested to "Start at the F'ing Start". I found some chitty stuff going on, mag box binding being one culprit, chit bedding job the other.

Took out all the bedding except for what was in the lug recess, shot this today. Same lot of ammo (55's).

Put together, looks like this:

No 90's, but vertical with 55's was cut from 1.2" to .4 which is a step in the right direction.

Moral of the story?
1. Start at the f'ing start when you start or its over before it begins.
2. Why it worked with the ABLR's? Dunno.
3. I wasted a lot of time/ammo chasing my ass

Here's an old ass article about groups, not a word about seating depth. Who the phhuk knows.

OLD ASS ARTICLE ABOUT GROUPS

Imagine that...................(grin)

You might be the big mouth of the month GFY

As per always,you'll want to start by [bleep] yourself...simply because you WILL get more poozy that way. Hint.

You "hard charging" Mall Ninja's are a hoot!

Happy Pretend to you.................

Barsness wrote a short piece here about rifle troubleshooting. His first approach when groups are erratic is NOT checking the bedding. I trust Barsness's understanding over yours, 'Stick. I recommend a refresher to those who are having random issues with their rifles.

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/newsletters/October_2011.html

I'm afforded the luxury,of not being forced to guess and can only lead you to water....but getta kick outta folks refraining the obvious..............

It might be a bad barrel instead of trying different lot of bullets or a different bullet you should replace the barrel at once. Start small is cheeper and easer it could be bedding but y would one tear a gun down if it could be simple fix found first.

"Might" "maybe" "if" aren't very soothing. Hint.

Hardly "daunting" to start at the [bleep] start and KNOW...but the Window Licking Tutorial is a riot!.................

Best part of your bull [bleep] is right now your trying to figure who is this guy that knows so much more than me and hopping your over confidence can pull your lack of knowledge to the winning side of the debate. I hope it is the bedding and gun turns out to be a shooter so your little ego is not damaged.

There's nothing subject to debate. You are simply in soooooooo far over your head,that you've less than zero inkling and the harder you "try"...the FUNNIER it gets.

Who chews your food for you?................

Your wife have a good day I'm going hunting

Just noticed your awesome avatar picture. What rifle,glass and bullet?

Any pics of the platform?...................

Originally Posted by fredIII

Your wife have a good day I'm going hunting

Didn't mean to tie your tongue or have you slurk off...because you were really doing "great"!................

Looks like someone switched their meds and went back with their old profile name

You ALMOST said something about The Rifle.

Almost.................

The floating magazine that moves with the action to remove the mag box binding issue is just another reason I like Sako 85's.

Remy action geography might make them easier to machine but the box mag thing introduces issues

Never had a binding issue with any Remmie magbox,that was assembled to the receiver correctly.

Whether ADL or BDL................

Although I guess a clone, this is a Stiller action.

Originally Posted by HuntnShoot

Barsness wrote a short piece here about rifle troubleshooting. His first approach when groups are erratic is NOT checking the bedding. I trust Barsness's understanding over yours, 'Stick. I recommend a refresher to those who are having random issues with their rifles.

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/newsletters/October_2011.html

Not that Stick needs defending but I'll say this -

I like John and his writing a ton. I've learned a metric ton from Stick and his shooting.

They both shoot a lot but I don't know of anyone who's so quick and willing to flog just about anything in R&D like Stick.

His 'diagnosis' isn't from his ass, it's from a hell of a lot of trigger time on multiple platforms with multiple cartridges.

Some guys gloat about buying primers by the 1000. That's probably a week for him, mebbe less. Nothing against JB but I don't know
of ANYONE who is a writer that shoots as much on pure volume alone.

Rifles talk...noone listens.............

Originally Posted by firstcoueswas80

Although I guess a clone, this is a Stiller action.

The better the componetry,the easier the diagnosis and lotsa folks are in a hurry to overlook that obvious.

If/when assembly and fastener tightness are verified,as well as glass...it's bedding. Rifles shoot loose,they do not shoot tight and I'm ALWAYS going to tighten things more than most,due those simplistic facts.

Chasing one's tail with moot reloading "practices",will yield nothing but lotsa mediocre performance and nothing can be learned when dots aren't connected.

Rest assured,there's method to the madness and Starting At The [bleep] Start can ONLY bear fruit and connect dots.....................(hint)

HuntnShoot,

While I appreciate the confidence, I agree with Stick on this one. When a rifle tends to consistently throw the third shot out, after two close together, odds are very high it's a bedding problem.

I don't recall arguing that bedding couldn't be the problem. I looked at his groups, saw that the 3rd shot wasn't thrown out on all of them, remembered your article, John, wherein you state that you start with a known scope, with screws not overtight, when gun is shooting erratically, and go from there.

I was arguing with Stick that he didn't have enough info to just toss out 'bedding'. He later backpedaled and offered that if the scope, mounts are kosher, to check the bedding.

Don't know how I got into the middle of this. Just trying to help the guy out. In the few rifles that had this problem for me, after farting around with various loads, loosening and then retightening the scope mounts fixed it. Thus I volunteered that. I still think it is good advise. I have far less experience in what constitutes proper bedding of action than I do in what constitutes proper scope mounting to prevent spraying when things heat up.

Your "best" ain't a very pretty picture.

Someone who "knows" as "much" as you,is always going to be better served by asking questions...rather than giving answers.(hint)

It's VERY obviously bedding to anyone with a clue,which keeps you fully out of the mix................(hint)

You're right, you didn't did say bedding couldn't be the problem. But I never said you did.

Casey apparently has confidence in his scope and mounts, and says he's seeing a pretty consistent pattern of the third shot being a flier. In my experience, scope/mount/bullet problems can produce a flier at any time, but when there's a pattern of the 3rd shot being a flier the odds are pretty good for a bedding problem.

Please note that I didn't say it definitely was a bedding problem, just that the odds were higher.

My smith is ADAMENT that it is not the bedding... I politely asked him to check it out and see what he sees. He says he has had other clients shoot the same bullets and have the same thing happen, they when switched to Bergers and viola.... 2" groups at 700.

Snake Oil is routinely hilarious and for alotta reasons...............

Casey,

Didn't you have the same issues with your .257 Roy?

So if your Smith is right just throw every 3rd shell over your shoulder that should cure things. Then take the over the shoulder bunch and shoot you a group with those. His theory should have them just a zinging.

2" groups @ 700 because it's Bergers? That dude is special.

Have your smith check the bedding with a dial indicator to rule it out,!

Greg,

Kind of. Inconsistent, but not two in one out. A new crown and now it's shooting really well. Last group was 5 under an inch.

I'd snug the action screws a bit tighter and give it another go and see what happens.

Shodd

Firstcoues, are you giving up on the LRAB? Saw your ad in the classifieds.

Im going through the same thing at the moment with a Montana in .300 win. Shooting 180gr accubonds I almost always get two shots touching/almost same hole then the third shot is a flyer. Gonna try some different bullets this week to see if its the rifle or the projectile. If it is the rifle, then its back to the drawing board.

It galls me that some gunsmiths are so arrogant that they won't admit that a customer's accuracy issue might be something THEY created.

I feel Casey's pain. He spent his money and has what I feel is an arrogant gunsmith.

Some of the gunsmiths I have had experiences with are not rifle looneys and don't even handload! Heck one guy is primarily a bow hunter! How can they be expected to understand when we complain of accuracy issues?

I sure liked hearing that Charlie Sisk figured out JB's issue so easily. He is my kind of gunsmith.

I don't think it would surprise many that I have encountered some very simple issues that should have been prevented by more care from the gunsmith. Bet other members could add to this horror list:

Poor crown:

I don't know of a single gunsmith around here that uses a borescope to verify the crown is good. Heck I had one crown that had a burr because the smith used a live center in the bore to support it for threading for a brake. I had to show him the burr with high magnification!

Bedding epoxy in blind holes:

Encountered this several times! One friend found this in a $7000 custom after tearing his hair out trying to make the gun shoot. He got pissed and tore the gun apart at the gunrange and inspected all pieces in bright sunlight. We called it the dreaded booger issue after that.

Action screw to bottom out in a blind hole:

Bedding the rifle lowered the action in the stock causing this issue.
------------
I have reached the point that IF a gunsmith does something for me I take the rifle apart and go through it before I shoot it.
I just cannot waste my time putting together a load if the rifle isn't sound.

If your first two shots are nearly touching and consistent in POI the solution seems simple - kill what you are shooting at with bullet #1 and if necessary a well placed follow up. I only recall one time when the 3rd round came into play and in hindsight that animal was dead but didn't know it yet.

Originally Posted by HuntnShoot

Firstcoues, are you giving up on the LRAB? Saw your ad in the classifieds.

I'm not giving up on them, but I want to test his theory.

THIS....

Quote

Bedding.....................(grin)

Quote

My Smith said to try another bullet add they were doing that to him and other guys with his rifles.

You and the other guys need to try another smith.

Couple of issues to check:

Bedding tops the list. To check the bedding for a right handed shooter. With your left hand, stand the rifle on it's butt. Next, grab the rifle with your left hand near the end of the forearm. With your left hand, Jam the tip of the index finger on your left hand between the barrel and the tip of the forearm. Now, loosen and tighten the front and rear guard screw. If you feel the action springing away from the stock, your gun is out of bed. In a perfect world, you should not feel more than .002 movement.

Check clearance on the magazine box. The box should freefloat between the floor plate and the action. If the floor plate is pushing up on the center of the action, it will cause stress on the action.

On Remingtons, if the trigger pins protrude enough to dig into the side of the stock, it will cause stress on the action. Also, if the Spring screw on the trigger housing is backed out on the trigger to the point to where it is touching the stock, it will cause stress.

Leupold a few years back made some screws out of spec on their scope bases. I have had a similar issue on a Rifle, and took the rifle completely apart. I found hash marks on the bottom of the front scope base screw indicating that the screw was digging into the threads on the barrel tenon. This will screw up accuracy big time. When installing scope bases on an action for the first time, I always tighten up the front scope base screw, then remove the screw looking at the bottom of the screw, insuring that there is clearance when the screw is tightened down.

After chasing down the mechanical things, next is seating depth, load, and primer choice. Other than mechanical issues, weak primer choice for the type of powder can be an issue, however this is really grasping for straws. I have seen a little hotter primer cure this type of issue, but it is rare indeed.

When this type of thing happens to me on a new barrel, I check the mechanicals, use a known scope of proven quality,playing with seating depth, change primers, then change powders.

I start off with the bullets kissing the lands, always! If I don't get bug holes at this point, thenI will go to .010, 0.30, 0.050, then 0.100 bullet jump on NON Barnes bullets. On custom barrels, I have not had to jump through these hoops, this is what happens on factory barrels.

With all the above crap don't over look the fact that the barrel does not like that bullet or like the powder you are using. I have got trapped into trying to make a barrel shoot a particular bullet or powder when the barrel may like a different kind.

It does not take a lot of shots to determine if you are on the right track, two shot groups will get you there in a hurry unless you are shooting in gusty winds. When gusty, you might want to move the target into 50 yards...you can still get your initial testing done at 50 when you are pinched for time with windy conditions.

If the bullets are not going into a tiny bug hole, you are not there yet.

I wouldn't conclude anything about a gun after only shooting one particular bullet.

That being said, I would guess bedding too. I have a gun that was doing the same thing with several bullets, sent it off for real bedding. I didn't want to dick with it anymore.

I gotta admit,I do enjoy watching folks chase their tails...with black & white staring them in the face.

This is great!..............

If those were Bergers I would reply "awesome groups!"

Now you don't know any more than before you asked the question!!

Where do shots 4 through 10 go?

#2, seat your bullets deeper.

Originally Posted by BobinNH

Where do shots 4 through 10 go?

Very sensible approach Bob.
Too much emphasis on single groups, which is unfortunately "the usual" for range assessment and inadequate to determine a root cause.

Originally Posted by AussieGunWriter

Originally Posted by BobinNH

Where do shots 4 through 10 go?

Very sensible approach Bob.
Too much emphasis on single groups, which is unfortunately "the usual" for range assessment and inadequate to determine a root cause.

AGW: Exactly.

I don't shoot a lot of 10 shot groups at 100 yards,because I get restless and anxious to get it to longer distance; but when a rifle is new I will grind it out to see whether those shots that are "out" are part of the rifles normal grouping.More rounds will tell us that.

Also,100 yard groups "lie" a lot and I recall one rifle that shot tight 100 yard groups for 3 shots, but there was a gremlin....one shot was always on the low side,yet the group was tight.Shooting at 400 yards showed that shot to be WAY low and well out of the group; vertical was not consistent and the rifle was double grouping.It was the load.

RCamuglia's Audette Ladder might have showed this and that's another way to find this stuff out. I was doing that but in a different way.

Either way when a rifle and load is new, and behaving oddly, I increase number of shots to find out what gives....and the quicker I get off the bags at 100 yards the better off I am and the faster I figure out what's happening.

Casey,
Are these the bullets you previously posted on that were deforming while seating? There may be some internal damage in your fliers...
Mike

It's getting even FUNNIER,which I never saw coming.

Bedding.................(hint)

Mike,

Yes. But that was solved with been turning. Thanks Dennis!

Stick, Smith has the rifle with the first instruction being to please check bedding.

I'd of wiped my own ass and cut to the chase.

Hint.................

Not sure what is a better idea...Letting the same "smith" fix a gun that he screwed the pooch on in the first place, or shooting 10 shot groups.

Fork that. Give it to someone who builds shooters...

W

Can only leads folks to water and can't make them drink.

Though I wouldn't...even if I could................(grin)

Originally Posted by HuntnShoot

I don't recall arguing that bedding couldn't be the problem. I looked at his groups, saw that the 3rd shot wasn't thrown out on all of them, remembered your article, John, wherein you state that you start with a known scope, with screws not overtight, when gun is shooting erratically, and go from there.

I was arguing with Stick that he didn't have enough info to just toss out 'bedding'. He later backpedaled and offered that if the scope, mounts are kosher, to check the bedding.

Don't know how I got into the middle of this. Just trying to help the guy out. In the few rifles that had this problem for me, after farting around with various loads, loosening and then retightening the scope mounts fixed it. Thus I volunteered that. I still think it is good advise. I have far less experience in what constitutes proper bedding of action than I do in what constitutes proper scope mounting to prevent spraying when things heat up.

There is no use trying to argue with Stumpie. You can only be reasonable with reasonable people.

I don't feel compelled to apologize,for being afforded the luxury of not being forced to guess...despite it being VERY unfair to you.

Now you were almost gonna say something about The Rifle,but the cat got your tongue.

I wonder why?

Laughing...............

You may have some useful knowledge to share.

If you could present that knowledge is a more civilized manner it would greatly improve the effectiveness of your contributions.

You are CERTAINLY at the mercy of your comprehension and that ain't much of a bargaining chip.

Funniest part is,even dumb as you are...you know how dumb you are and that your only move is to Whine.

I suggest you shut up and take notes,then apply same.

Hint..................

Originally Posted by Big Stick

You are CERTAINLY at the mercy of your comprehension and that ain't much of a bargaining chip.

Funniest part is,even dumb as you are...you know how dumb you are and that your only move is to Whine.

I suggest you shut up and take notes,then apply same.

Hint..................

That's interesting. Who's launching personal attacks, and who's providing useful advise?

I merely made a suggestion how you could modify your behavior to improve the forum. Whether you choose to take the advice offered is strictly up to you.

PLEASE find me "mistaken".

It will be funny!

Hint..................

Originally Posted by Big Stick

PLEASE find me "mistaken".

It will be funny!

Hint..................

I didn't say you were wrong, I said you could improve you presentation style. If you are as knowledgeable as you claim, you shouldn't need the sarcasm.

Funny how facts,unsettle them who do the least...the most.

Hint..................

You claim knowledge you do not possess.

As for your accusation about being unsettled by facts, if your've read any significant number of my past posts, you would realize your assertion it completely inapplicable to me. Facts are facts, however there are many different ways a person can choose to communicate a set of facts. Your style has a tendency to be very abrasive, which reduces the effectiveness of your communication.

Is this when the awkward silence starts?

Laughing!................

Again you dodged ALL things The Rifle and went Full Estrogen +P.

No way to sugarcoat Stupid,as you eloquently attest.

Congratulations?!?....................

Originally Posted by Big Stick

Is this when the awkward silence starts?

Laughing!................

Yes, your abrasive style has a tendency to kill threads and reduce the quality of the Fire for other members.

Might I suggest you fill out a Hurt Feelers Report,then go FULL Retard with Imaginary Pretend Ignore.

It's equally as "effective" as Whining and skirting all things The Rifle and complaining about how Stupid you are.

Let me save you some bandwidth...your Stupidity ain't a "secret".

Hint..................

Originally Posted by Big Stick

Might I suggest you fill out a Hurt Feelers Report,then go FULL Retard with Imaginary Pretend Ignore.

It's equally as "effective" as Whining and skirting all things The Rifle and complaining about how Stupid you are.

Let me save you some bandwidth...your Stupidity ain't a "secret".

Hint..................

I don't recall saying anything about ignore. I don't have anyone on ignore. As for skirting the issue, who is skirting the issue? Who is missing the opportunity for self reflection and an opportunity to improve their communication style?

Overall, your last post was a nice ad hominem attack. But then, the ad hominem is the last refuge of the defeated mind.

You Window Lickers are a hoot!

Noone can attack you,better than you can...by you simply revealing your "best" efforts.

Hint..................

Originally Posted by Big Stick

You Window Lickers are a hoot!

Noone can attack you,better than you can...by you simply revealing your "best" efforts.

Hint..................

So, you are just going to triple down on the ad hominem demonstrating you have nothing left in the tank?

Casey

It seems that you have had issues with this rifle from the get-go. Think it is time to get it to someone else? It appears you have quality parts.

I'm at ease speaking matter of factly,mainly because...facts matter.

Just as you are comfy in Whining,if only because that's the only move you've got.

Funny how it works!.................

Never be in a hurry,to make a bad decision.

Schit happens,nice try,no thanks,bye-bye............(grin)

Originally Posted by antelope_sniper

Originally Posted by Big Stick

You Window Lickers are a hoot!

Noone can attack you,better than you can...by you simply revealing your "best" efforts.

Hint..................

So, you are just going to triple down on the ad hominem demonstrating you have nothing left in the tank?

Been laughing all morning and shared the "dreaded" Triple Whine with a few pards and you've made more than a few folks' day already.

Congratulations?....................

So in the name of science and skullphukkery, burned up some chitty groups this afternoon. Rebedded the action and nipped the magbox, etc. Same load/lot/rig...

Outta the gate, all the action screws/bases/rings were "snug":

Then torqued the action screws:

Finally took the works apart and reassembled action screws/bases/rings farmer tight:

to be continued......

Spoke with the Smith today, he had the same exact issues I did. He took my scope and rings off and tried his, still had the issues. Tightened the screws, same thing. Basically gave me the choice of where to start, I elected to have the bedding, and possibly crown recut. Next would be a new barrel, but that's like 9 months out, so that's last resort.

Try a powder change?

I've tried h1000, us 869 and retumbo with like results.

Casey

Have you tried any other bullets? Like berger 168vld or 180vld? Matrix bullets? I have seen some guys reporting they could not get the accubond long range to shoot good at all but getting great results with other bullets.

Assuming the smith used the same load?

Bedding...................(grin)

I'da tinkered with COAL, to rule out the myth....

That'd add humor!................

No one has mentioned what long range target shooters on the line have said for many many years... 7mms are weird. Especially if driven faster like 7 Rem Mag.

No one less than David Tubb has said that 7 rem mag and up will drive you nuts with unexplained fliers.

My single example of a 7 mag round, has shown the exact same trait as yours. It shoots 2 and 1 groups pretty consistent. And large enough that its not a long range gun at all. I"ve gone through 3 bullets, 3 powders so far.

It is the last douglas barrel I'll use though. But it may well be that its not the barrel at all.

The bedding shows no signs of action movement as you torque or un torque. By mounted dial indicator at least. As far as I know thats been a good way to chekc on bedding issues.

Crown issues in the past do not show 2 and 1. They are just erratic groups period.

But one could easily relieve the bedding and rebed, though if running a dial indicator test on the gun shows it to be fine, then I"d say not bedding at all.

Seating depth is what I'd play with. It can make some big differences at times. But I wouldn't do small increments, take the best load and run it in and out substantially and see if you get any signs of worse or better. A simple minor move of say .010 ain't gonna show stuff, given the ogive variation of most bullets from one to another.

If I ever decide to put a new tube on my 7 mag, I'll go for a top line tube, nothing like a Pac Nor or such. Just move right on up to what I consider top line, Krieger, Rock etc... would be intersting to see, but I have other things going on instead of that at the moment.

You poor poor CLUELESS phuqq.

Wow...............

I still wouldn't discount a gun over only one bullet.

Antelope Sniper, you are wasting your time on Big Stick. He has more than a decade of posts proving that he is hopeless in regards to civil and helpful communication. Why he was ever allowed to return is beyond me. Of course he will now start in on me.

Rufous, thanks for the insight. I just like to be fair and give folks an opportunity to make their own decision. Stumpies made his, and in the process did a great job of showing his real persona. He may be knowledgeable within his limited sphere, but in the end, he's a dick because he chooses to be a dick.

Don't fault him. He can't help it.

I am loading 150 grain accubond lr for 270 win for this season! all test ammo seated .015 off lands. worked up by .5 increments on powder. Started with lowest and when i got to a little over 3000fps she dialed in one ragged hole. I went from frustrated to happy in four groups.

Originally Posted by rufous

Antelope Sniper, you are wasting your time on Big Stick. He has more than a decade of posts proving that he is hopeless in regards to civil and helpful communication. Why he was ever allowed to return is beyond me. Of course he will now start in on me.

I'm afforded the luxury,of not being forced to guess.

Sounds like you've ample opportunity and substance,in which to find me "mistaken".

PLEASE do...it will be FUNNY................

You got 150's to 3k in a vanilla 270?

Stupidity isn't a "decision",it's a Plight. Them differences are stark.

You are at the mercy of your "means","abilities" and "experience"...which of course copiously fuel Stupidity.

Funny how it actually works and I mean FUNNY!...............

[quote=16bore]You got 150's to 3k in a vanilla 270? [/qu

ote]

Yes very vanilla and 22 inch barrel

Powder?

That might be a new powder sprinkled with pixy dust...

Chrono must be wonky or something. My guess (I don't own a .270 anymore) you would have to lean on things really hard to get 3k even out of a 24" tube with 150's

I thought 3,100 outta 129 LRX in a 22" tube was warm.

Nosler ql lists several powders over 3000 fps!!!!

They do??
http://www.nosler.com/s/270-Win-150gr-version-7-1.pdf

Originally Posted by cottontopbill

Nosler ql lists several powders over 3000 fps!!!!

So what powder do YOU use to get that velocity?

Originally Posted by cottontopbill

Nosler ql lists several powders over 3000 fps!!!!

Sorry, not for a 150 grainer they don't. Even with a 26" tube (and who uses a 26 incher in a .270)? You gotta lean on it pretty good to crack 3k fps.

There was a fella on AR saying he got 3050 with 150 Bergers/H4831 in a 24" Krieger tube.
58.0 got me 2,844 in a 22" tube. But that's just 4831, hadn't tried anything else.

Heres a swipe from the Nosler site....

Originally Posted by Nosler Forum

Cartridge : .270 Win. (SAAMI)
Bullet : .277, 150, Nosler Accubond LR 58836 G7
Useable Case Capaci: 58.520 grain H2O = 3.800 cm�
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.340 inch = 84.84 mm
Barrel Length : 24.0 inch = 609.6 mm

Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.
Matching Maximum Pressure: 64000 psi, or 441 MPa
or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 110 %
These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !

15 loads produced a Loading Ratio below user-defined minimum of 90%. These powders have been skipped.
Powder type Filling/Loading Ratio Charge Charge Vel. Prop.Burnt P max P muzz B_Time
% Grains Gramm fps % psi psi ms
--------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Norma MRP 104.8 59.0 3.82 3058 99.9 64000 12403 1.135 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N560 106.6 58.7 3.81 3049 98.1 64000 12691 1.132 ! Near Maximum !
PB Clermont PCL 517 109.1 62.8 4.07 3043 98.8 64000 12441 1.124 ! Near Maximum !
SNPE Vectan SP 12 108.9 62.7 4.06 3043 98.9 64000 12420 1.124 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate MAGPRO 106.8 61.2 3.97 3038 96.9 64000 12744 1.138 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 7828 SSC 105.0 58.2 3.77 3031 98.5 64000 12257 1.124 ! Near Maximum !
ReloadSwiss RS 70 98.0 56.3 3.65 3028 100.0 64000 11518 1.129 ! Near Maximum !
Raufoss RA15 106.8 58.2 3.77 3025 99.3 64000 12211 1.138 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP5/NP ~approximation 106.8 58.2 3.77 3025 99.3 64000 12211 1.138 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-22 106.8 58.2 3.77 3025 99.3 64000 12211 1.138 ! Near Maximum !
Winchester WXR 109.7 58.5 3.79 3024 99.2 64000 12226 1.139 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP15 109.7 58.5 3.79 3024 99.2 64000 12226 1.139 ! Near Maximum !
ReloadSwiss RS 60 95.1 53.8 3.49 3019 100.0 64000 10999 1.131 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2213 105.9 57.8 3.74 3016 98.3 64000 12145 1.124 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AP 2214 109.7 61.4 3.98 3003 98.5 64000 11961 1.122 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Magnum 106.3 62.4 4.05 3003 99.7 64000 11638 1.130 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 7828 110.0 57.7 3.74 3001 98.2 61907 12177 1.141 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-17 94.1 53.2 3.45 2995 100.0 64000 10922 1.139 ! Near Maximum !
Elcho 17 94.1 53.2 3.45 2995 100.0 64000 10922 1.139 ! Near Maximum !
Rottweil R905 107.9 57.8 3.74 2988 98.0 64000 11876 1.140 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2209 102.8 55.2 3.57 2980 99.2 64000 11551 1.131 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-19 103.4 55.8 3.61 2979 99.2 64000 11624 1.138 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP5 NT ~approximation 109.6 60.3 3.91 2978 96.5 64000 11954 1.129 ! Near Maximum !
PB Clermont PCL 511 95.7 55.0 3.56 2975 100.0 64000 11256 1.145 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Hunter 98.9 55.1 3.57 2973 100.0 64000 11240 1.145 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-25 110.0 59.0 3.82 2973 100.0 57976 11813 1.178 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP14 ~approximation 104.1 56.2 3.64 2972 99.2 64000 11539 1.139 ! Near Maximum !
Winchester 760 93.4 53.3 3.45 2971 99.9 64000 11280 1.146 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H414 93.4 53.3 3.45 2971 99.9 64000 11280 1.146 ! Near Maximum !
ReloadSwiss RS 62 96.2 54.4 3.52 2965 100.0 64000 10846 1.158 ! Near Maximum !
Somchem S365 100.6 54.0 3.50 2960 100.0 64000 10423 1.154 ! Near Maximum !
Norma 204 98.0 54.6 3.54 2953 99.0 64000 11315 1.140 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP4 ~approximation 101.2 54.6 3.54 2953 99.0 64000 11315 1.140 ! Near Maximum !
Raufoss RA4 101.2 54.6 3.54 2953 99.0 64000 11315 1.140 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4831 108.7 57.0 3.69 2951 97.7 64000 11438 1.136 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4831 SC 104.5 57.0 3.69 2951 97.7 64000 11438 1.136 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N550 95.6 52.7 3.42 2951 100.0 64000 10885 1.156 ! Near Maximum !
Norma URP 98.4 52.5 3.40 2950 100.0 64000 10744 1.152 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP19 ~approximation 98.5 52.5 3.40 2950 100.0 64000 10741 1.152 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 4350 97.6 52.6 3.41 2946 100.0 64000 10700 1.168 ! Near Maximum !
Somchem S385 103.6 56.5 3.66 2941 99.6 64000 11096 1.158 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4831 103.3 53.3 3.46 2932 100.0 64000 10508 1.160 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP4 NT ~approximation 98.8 54.1 3.51 2930 99.8 64000 10895 1.152 ! Near Maximum !
Winchester Supreme 780 101.8 57.9 3.75 2929 99.1 64000 11022 1.144 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 3100 106.8 57.6 3.73 2929 100.0 64000 10764 1.171 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N165 108.9 58.1 3.77 2925 99.5 64000 10827 1.148 ! Near Maximum !
Rottweil R904 102.1 54.3 3.52 2923 98.3 64000 11029 1.143 ! Near Maximum !
ReloadSwiss RS 52 90.9 50.6 3.28 2923 100.0 64000 10266 1.155 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4350 100.8 53.2 3.45 2914 99.6 64000 10694 1.145 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex S070 98.1 52.3 3.39 2914 99.9 64000 10707 1.161 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4350 98.9 53.1 3.44 2913 99.6 64000 10671 1.146 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H380 90.9 50.1 3.25 2908 100.0 64000 10374 1.160 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon Hybrid 100V 101.0 52.7 3.42 2906 100.0 64000 9893 1.153 ! Near Maximum !
Norma 203B 90.0 48.6 3.15 2906 100.0 64000 10142 1.159 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N160 108.9 56.3 3.65 2906 98.2 64000 10823 1.145 ! Near Maximum !
Rottweil R907 95.8 50.8 3.29 2894 99.6 64000 10544 1.155 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP7 95.8 50.8 3.29 2894 99.6 64000 10544 1.155 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4007 SSC 92.8 50.8 3.29 2893 99.6 64000 10537 1.155 ! Near Maximum !
Norma 203 old 91.2 49.7 3.22 2893 100.0 64000 9980 1.172 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP3 91.2 49.7 3.22 2893 100.0 64000 9980 1.172 ! Near Maximum !
Elcho TR140 - preliminary data 90.6 50.5 3.27 2892 100.0 64000 10105 1.157 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP30 110.0 59.3 3.85 2892 97.2 52884 12282 1.237
Norma MRP 2 110.0 59.3 3.85 2892 97.2 52884 12282 1.237
Somchem S361 100.9 58.0 3.76 2891 97.7 64000 10808 1.153 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex S065 97.0 51.2 3.32 2890 100.0 64000 10291 1.161 ! Near Maximum !
Rottweil R903 93.3 49.8 3.22 2888 100.0 64000 9895 1.172 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N570 110.0 62.6 4.05 2888 91.3 51404 13059 1.244
Somchem S355 93.5 49.3 3.20 2885 100.0 64000 9917 1.166 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-33 110.0 65.2 4.23 2858 91.4 50701 12863 1.253
Lovex S071 110.0 56.1 3.64 2851 99.8 58148 10651 1.223 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2700 92.9 52.3 3.39 2846 99.5 64000 9951 1.159 ! Near Maximum ![/code]

MRP, N560 and MagPro are your friends for maximum velocity.

If you are imprudent enough, you can goose a 150 gr bullet from a 270 at over 3000 fps (I have done it); much the same way you can get 3200 from a 160 in a 7 Rem Mag.

Neither is particularly bright nor to be recommended as in both cases the loads are clearly over the top.

I use 2900 fps as the benchmark in a 270 with 150 gr, regardless which miracle powder a guy likes to burn.Makes life simpler. As always, you want more, buy a bigger cartridge.

Bob, just buying something bigger I am afraid makes too much sense!

As long as I can remember loonies have been trying to make a 270 a 7 rem mag. The sad part is they don't realize the old 270 does just fine on its on merits.

rta: Some folks do try to coax a bit more from lotsa stuff.

Originally Posted by Big Stick

Bedding................

What if the rifle shoots other bullets well? Could it still be a bedding issue then? Not trying to be funny, just think we all learn a lot from the forum and maybe can get good opinions on this.

Pieter

Bedding.

None of this schit is Rocket Science and I'm often amused how folks just love to step over the obvious and spin their wheels................

If its consistently the 3rd shot flying out, then it's an ammo issue only if he [bleep] up every 3rd round at the loading bench and then shoots them in that order.

Don't go making sense,you are going to phuqq these gals up..................(grin)

Also, are you shooting/using the same brass for all those groups?

If so, you may have one piece of brass that doesn't like working with the other two.
Shoot them and sharpie the brass that throws the shot. Load them and try again.
See what happens.

Nope, virgin brass every time so far.

I was trying to help the man out as to what tightened up my groups. My box of bullets were .276 other brands were .277 I dont know which is right. Now your probably going to say my caliper is off. It is not an issue of how fast the bullet is traveling. It is an issue of 2 in 1 out. My group was one ragged hole and was the last group and the highest velocity. Tomorrow is another day!

So the story continues....

Original charge/COAL, then -0.010, -0.020, 2.292 COAL + .4 powder bump, then original load (charge and COAL) with tip pressure via chapstick tube cut lengthwise. Last group .75"

Quote

with tip pressure via chapstick tube cut lengthwise

What does this mean?

I split a chapstick tube and shoved it between the stock and barrel at the tip of the forearm.

Looks like I'll be bedding in some pressure.

Rainy day group, windy day group. Half inch targets, think we'll call it good for now. FL bedded the channel to try to stiffen the forearm a bit, nipped mechanicals, added tip pressure.

Whats the lastest with the OP?

Your gun draws circles on targets? Weird.....

Was this issue resolved?

Sorry if I missed something, just wondering whether the rifle is shooting now.

Pieter

Looks like several somebody's owe one somebody an apology.

If I'm reading the original post right the flyer is always the third shot. If it was a bullet jacket issue wouldn't the flyer be less consistent (sometimes 1st shot, sometimes 2nd?). If it's always the third you'd have to be always picking that non-concentric bullet to fire as the third shot which seems pretty statistically far fetched

Originally Posted by Kellywk

If I'm reading the original post right the flyer is always the third shot. If it was a bullet jacket issue wouldn't the flyer be less consistent (sometimes 1st shot, sometimes 2nd?). If it's always the third you'd have to be always picking that non-concentric bullet to fire as the third shot which seems pretty statistically far fetched

You think!!!!

Shod

Could be trying too hard on the third shot letting the round warm in the hot chamber and causing a little extra juice throwing the bullet off its node.Quite common on a sportier weight barrel especially if you are in a small node or at the edge of a node.
Never seen it happen with a three round group but that may be because I shoot five shot groups at least?

Just messin with you guys,its probabably the bedding

Originally Posted by GregW

Seat them deeper Casey -

This

The OP`s question was interesting to me, thought I may learn something, as I`m having the same issues with the 7mm 168 LRAB`s. I`m shooting a 7 Wby,9 twist, 26 inch PAC-NOR and working with the Wby lead. Have tried various powders/primers/seating depths/cases/ neck trimming etc to no avail. Best 300 yrd groups are at 1MOA. I think these bullets should do better.
Interestingly, the Berger 168 proved just as difficult to get to shoot, someone here suggersted 180 hybrids, these bullets shoot wery well, 1/2 MOA at 3, 4, and 5.
In my rifle, I think I`m limited with both the twist, and the lead. Don`t remember reading what the OP`s rifle has.
And no, it`s not the bedding...

Oh....one or two of about 15 possible issues!!

Loaded some of these up and shot them today. Onlyn did three powder charges in half grain increments. Stock Kimber Monatana 300WM, and it was the 190gr 30cal version.

Two charges shot about 2MOA, whilst one shot .7MOA and was "2 in 1 out" , similar to the groups shot by the OP. My buddy ho gave me them to try had the same issue with the powder charges, and im curious if anyone else has seen this?

Obviously different powder charges will shoot differently, but ive never seen such a big differencd in group size. Now all ive left to do is tinker with my one good load and see if it can be improved.

Different charges dont always shoot different.

My heavy barrel 338 EDGE tends to throw a flyer, sometimes, on shot #4 or 5, but I generally will fire 5 shots fairly rapidly. I'm using 250gr Accubonds @ 3000fps. I'm thinking the bbl might warm up a bit. Here in AK, much of my shooting is done at temps of 50* or cooler.

I experienced a similar problem over the last week as the op did. Funny thing is on my rifle the 3rd round was also always the flyer. I then removed bedding from below, sides and front of recoil lug. I also seated bullets slightly deeper and the rifle then grouped extremely well. Unfortunately I did not try one element at a time, but by changing the two elements I solved my problem.

Pieter