If you could build anything on a long action for shooting and hunting game up to Elk size, what would it be? What needs to be taken into account, is the price per round (when reloading), long range performance and inherent accuracy. The rifle can be up to light varmint weight.

Would appreciate any opinions

Thanks

Pieter

.300 Weatherby / Klienguenther action / 28" barrel / z5 5-25X52
comes in at twelve pounds or less

I put together a rifle for hunting antelope and plains mule deer with it serving as a back up elk rifle. I ended up with a vanguard action 26" #4 contour chambered in .264 win. 1/8 twist. Weight is right at 10 lbs with scope and is all the more weight I want in a hunting rifle.

There are so many to pick from but I would have to say 7mm Remington would be a good choice unless you don't like belts then Id say 280 ackley

Define long range? 300 win mag or 300 wsm would be my starting point for elk at longer than typical hunting ranges (300 yards or less).

This or a 6.5-06.

John

John,
I've got an older 700 25-06 and two Brux barrels, one a 9 twist 7mm and one a 8.5 twist 6.5mm. I'm thinking the same thing...

I built a 7mm STW.

If we are going to include wildcats, I would go with my new 6.5SLR. It is nothing more than a long neck .264 Win Mag without the belt with Weatherby radii. It weighs six pounds thirteen ounces with a 26" barrel. It carries the z5 5-25X52.

If it is a standard boltface in my opinion you can do no better than a 280 AI shooting a 162 Hornady A-Max. Mine will be done soon. If a magnum I'd recommend a 7 Rem Mag shooting the same bullet or a 264 Win Mag shooting a 140 Berger or 140 A-max. Good luck

6.5-06 AI

6.5-06 or 280AI

Depends what you chase the most

300 win mag. Kill every thing from here to there. Wantbees have free bore that sucks 264 not best for elk 7 mm good 300 better.

This IMHO .

I don't know for sure but hear that components are expensive and not always available in SA, so I would want "common" brass. 7 Rem Mag or 300 Win Mag are the ones I'd grab and you don't leave anything on the table with either one.

If I were bound and determined to do a wildcat (not required but fun)it would be the 7mm Mashburn Super because it will produce more velocity than the 7 Rem Mag with heavy bullets,and one pass through the dies makes brass from common 300 Win Mag cases.

30-06: Easy to reload, light rifle, doesn't beat you up when you shoot it. I can make shots at longer range if I wanted, but, I really like making shots at closer range.
Bullet weights from 150-200 grains, I'm sure you can get the job done.
I like to use 180 grain bullet mostly anymore. I've never had a gun in 30-06 fail me.
Ammo is easy to find in most stores.

I have rifles in larger and smaller caliber to use, and they are nice rifles too. My favorite is my 30-06.

Wish you luck on you on your new gun.

My 30-06

Okay, my real long range rig is my 338 RUM. Shooting 250-300 grain bullets. High BC rules, for long range shooting. I just bought some Honady 285 grain Amax has 720 BC, I will try these once it cools off some.
Have a good day.

Irrefutable logic...

The price per round component throws a wrench in things , but anything that produces 1k ftlb of energy at 1k yrds will fit the bill. Big 7mm , 30's , or the dedicated 338's do it well. The 6.5 SAUM does it too.
So I guess the 300WM really shines when the cost per round aspect is considered. I think the cost per round should be considered in relation to barrel life as well , and here the 6.5 SAUM really shines.

(you can build a 6.5 SAUM on a long action)

Wut???

I was thinking 300 WSM as well, but I think the OP is looking for "long action" cartridges. With that being considered, the next best thing (for me) in long action would be the 7mm rem mag....

Thanks for the info. Guess I should have added what I meant by 'long range'. I am thinking 800-1100 yards. I do not mind belted cartridges at all. For some reason the 300 WM seems like a good choice, especially with the bullet choices for the 300s.

What is wrong with the 264 Win Mag? It has always been a round that I would like to try but it seems like it is not one of the top choices out there?

Pieter

I already have everything i would build to hunt Elk with.

Now I know why I don't spend much time on this forum.

The notion of taking shots on un-wounded big game at 800-1000 yards is in my opinion, callous and irresponsible. Regardless of how great a shot you are, or how powerful and accurate your rifle, there is just too much that can happen that will result in a wounded animal. I used the Nosler app to calculate the flight time of a 160gr. 7mm Accubond driven at 3200 fps. Flight time to 800 yards is .97 seconds. 10 mph wind drift is over 39 inches. Drop, assuming a 200 yard zero, is just over 10 feet. The figures for 1000 yards are really ugly. Even if you know the exact range, once you factor in the vagaries of wind and possible animal movement, it's just too damn far.

Shoot at targets, steel, or even small varmints at that range, but never big game.

Let the poo flinging commence!

Pappy, I agree with what you are saying. I've shot out to 1,000 and a lot can happen to the bullet in the time it takes for it to get to the target. Where's John Burns at. He's probably one of the most skilled long range shooters here. He can tell you how much practice it takes to make long pokes like the OP is asking about. It's also not just about practice either. It's knowing your rifles trajectory, ballistics, and terminal performance of the bullet at all distances. Wind comes into play and it's not just the side to side winds, you have updrafts and headwinds of varying speeds that have an effect on the path of the bullet. Cant of the scope by a degree will throw the bullet off target by inches. Gadgets or charts for shooting angled shots are also needed along with a good LRF and wind meter/weather center (kestrel 3500 comes to mind). Etc, etc. Are you a good judge at reading animals? Is the buck or elk you are about to pull the trigger on skittish or is it totally unaware? I personally draw the line at 700 yards when shooting big game animals and that's on a calm day. Others are much better, but that's where I draw my own personal boundary.

Pappy348,



Let's say you wound a varmint at 700 yards. Do you honestly think it will be in less pain than a deer or bear?

You're absolutely correct. I was thinking of something like a prairie dog or a crow that would usually be a kill or miss situation, due to their very small size. The other exception I would make is a livestock-killing predator. IMHO, a farmer or rancher has the right to take any shot he can get to defend his stock. Even then, I think the shot should be followed up to make sure the critter is dead.

I also ran the numbers on 6.5mm Accubonds and Custom Competition bullets and the figures pretty much mirrored the 7mm 160s. They all have the velocity and energy to expand and kill to at least 800 yards. Getting them in the right spot is the hard part. While I usually carry something that's easily capable to at least 300-400 yards, my enjoyment comes from getting close enough to observe an animal's behavior and reactions. Where I hunt these days, even if I got a long shot and made it, I'd likely loose the footrace to get to the animal first and tag it!

Pappy348,We are in the privileged position that we can hunt more animals on foot in one year than most people might hunt through their entire lives. Regarding observing animals, I do that on a very regular basis as we own a game ranch and I guide quite often and manage population which I guess teaches one quite a bit about animals. I experience the type of hunting you are referring to on a weekly basis throughout the year and I know very well what it is about.

I can honestly say that I can hit a vital sized target at up to 800 yards better than most hunters would at 100 yards off shooting sticks. (I am not a very experienced long range guy compared to many others, but I shoot a lot and I try to take everything into account when I shoot at long range and I guess the practice pays off)

Long range hunting is another form of hunting and have been since probably early 80s, but I will agree that if you are not comfortable or able to shoot at a certain distance then you should not be doing so and your rifle should be capable of it as well of course. If what you said is referring to your shooting skills then yes I agree, but there are guys out there that can shoot and hunt at long range better than most others shoot at regular hunting ranges. Again, practice and experience is where it comes down to.

Pieter

Practice, experience and skill cannot overcome the variables I mentioned as they are totally out of the hunter's control and cannot be predicted or compensated for. I may be wrong, but you seem to be one of those that regards a hunting license as an excuse to whang away at anything you can see, regardless of the consequences. Someone with the experience and skill to make shots like that likely wouldn't need advice on cartridge selection.

As you clearly have your mind made up as to the feasibility and ethics of the matter, all I can wish you, without much hope, is clean kills or clean misses.

I can honestly say that I can hit a vital sized target at up to 800 yards better than most hunters would at 100 yards off shooting sticks. (I am not a very experienced long range guy compared to many others, but I shoot a lot and I try to take everything into account when I shoot at long range and I guess the practice pays off)


Sounds like what you are using would be adequate if you are that confident.

Love 264 have one would hunt elk any time with it but would not take it over a 300 wm with 180 ab or a 7 mm rm with 160 ab. Kill elk all the time with a bow and arrow so pretty sure a 264 will do the job just not my first pick for elk. You should know that your a wise gun writer.

M77, it sounds like you have the basics covered, so per your OP, I'll just focus on the cartridge.

Many folks have mentioned the 30.06, and for a general purpose hunting rifle it's a fine cartridge. However, out here in the west, there are many times the old GP isn't going to cut in and you need to bring out "the long shooter". As previously mentioned, distance increases the effects of variables, so for a dedicated long shooter I choose to offset these variable as much as possible with velocity and Ballistic coefficient.

It was this combination of high velocity, high BC bullets, and cheap surplus cannon powder that lead me to the 7mm STW.

Not once did I say I am going to run out and start shooting at animals at that distance immediately. It is also a choice to shoot in windy conditions or not. I personally would avoid shooting at an animal in even light wind at real long range.

About your statement regarding the hunting licence, you are completely wrong. I have probably done more conservation that you ever have or ever will (do not just assume things). I clearly understand that animals feel pain and that when you shoot at any animal you should make sure of your shot. When hunting forms part of a job of course you are going to shoot a few animals throughout the year.

I cannot understand what is wrong with asking questions regarding cal choices either, this is one of the reasons to join a forum, to find out what others have experienced and weigh up your options (in my case). Why does anyone ask any questions regarding any cartridge on any of the forums then? But as you said earlier, if you do not like the idea of long range hunting then it is your choice to post or not post in the section or on other long range forums.

This should have been a separate topic regarding cartridges and ethics as I just wanted information on cartridges.

Pieter

It might be that what I am using is adequate, but like many guys out there I enjoy the collection of firearms and I do not see what is wrong with wanting something new. What I said was not to prove a point about my confidence, it is about hunters buying one or two boxes of ammo in a year and some might only fire about 10 rounds in total. 2-5 to sight in at 25 yards and then off they go hunting. Chances are good I shoot more rounds on some days than some people put through a rifle barrel in a few year's time (not trying to prove a point, I just enjoy shooting and enjoy to practice as much as I can) I have had good consistency lately with hits on steel out to 900, but I know there are better cartridges out there and enjoy the information I read on the forum regarding options and why people make choices they do.

Pieter

Dan Lilja have info on his web site regarding long range hunting and right at the bottom of the third page he discussed ethics briefly. Here is the link to that: http://www.riflebarrels.com/articles/longrange_shooting/shooting_hunting_page3.htm

Pieter

Guys, thanks for the info and opinions on the different cartridges. I apologize for drifting from the topic and guess it should have been discussed in a different thread.

Pieter

antelope_sniper, the 7 STW seems like another good choice as I have heard of guys taking Elk beyond 1000 with them. I see I can get Nosler brass for the STW around here for a decent price. Definitely going to look into it. Thanks

Pieter sounds to me like you are just being shy...

With your opportunities it sounds like you could be telling all of us a thing or two about the differences between how these various cartridges do at distances long and short. Personally I pay a lot of attention to what African hunters have to say about cartridge/bullet performance because of the sheer volume of animals they get to shoot.

I have been bombarded with emails from my old pal, RinB who posts here; he has been in SA and Namib for about 2 weeks now....losing track but he must be up over 25-30 animals up to eland with a 270 and 129 LRX and 130 Bitterroot bonded bullets.African hunters simply get to see much more in a compressed time than we do her in NA.

Have you had much opportunity to run these various cartridges and bullets on a lot of animals? Interested in your thoughts on the matter.

Pieter,

Based on your experience I would suggest the 300 RUM with the 230 gr Berger Match Hybrid Target bullet. It has a BC of .743 which will be a big help to minimalize wind drift. You can get 3000 fps or a bit more with the right powders. H-1000 will be closer to 2900 but RL-33 has proven to get close to 3100 fps from a 26" barrel.

This heavy for caliber bullet exits with excellent wound channels. Before anyone trashes this bullet read these two links:

http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f19/230gr-berger-used-africa-success-138852/\

This thread features the 300 win mag with the 230 gr hybrid OTM which is constructed the same as the 230 match hybrid target just shorter for short magazine application and a slightly lower BC. Same performance.

http://www.longrangehunting.com/for...ybrid-terminal-results-80283/index3.html

Although I really try to practice a lot, I am still fairly new to long range shooting and will not pretend that I know enough to give info on terminal performance on big game of bullets at real long range What I do know or learnt is that checking and rechecking and rechecking again is helping me a lot to get more consistent shooting results.

From what we experience regarding hunters wounding animals there is one particular locally made bullet that were recovered from wounded animals more than any other brand and it is Impala Bullets. It is a monolithic that do not expand, that is advertised as a hunting bullet. The manufacturer claims that the shock wave caused by the shape of the bullet as it enters the animal causes enough damage to the organs to kill the animal quickly. Our neighbor have half his pickup truck's ashtray filled with these bullets that he recovered from wounded animals during weeks, after hunters hunted their property. I am not saying the bullet does not work, but I would not recommend it, not even to mention shooting at longer range with them as the BC will be horrible and for that shock wave effect to occur that they talk about it will have to impact the animal with a decent amount of speed (I am guessing here)

Regarding running various bullets in different calibers is difficult to sum up. We use mainly 6s to 338s.I can honestly say that the 6.5s are more than adequate enough for animals up to the size Kudu and even non premium bullets such as Interlocks have done the job on Kudu extremely well. I love the low BC of the 7s and 6.5s but I still think the right 30 - 338 cal would create better wound channels which leads to quicker death and maybe some of the guys here on the forum can shed more light on this. I think in the end the rifle and bullet you choose to use at long range should be the one you practice with most as shooting at different altitude, temp angles ect is critical and then understanding what that combo does. We see every year when we hunt in Namibia compared to our place that the atmospheric differences (excluding the tricky one which is wind) can make a 1/2 moa at 100 rifle a 1 moa rifle when we sight in our rifles. You will basically have to develop a whole new load for that part of Namibia for that rifle if you wanted to shoot at longer range. Funny thing is, we arrive back home, take that rifle and then it shoots back at 1/2 moa as it did before we left! Shooting in heat is also something I avoid as the heat waves is just too much of a disturbance and I feel like I am just wasting ammo then.

BTW, what is the 130 Bitterroot?

Thanks

Pieter

270 Win! Zero at 200 and you can hold dead on at 600!!

I know!!!!







Pieter, thanks for that great response! Very interesting perspective.

The 300 grain .338 SMK has to be seen to believed. The blow that it delivers to game as well as the massive wound is extremely effective. They open very well at long range. My 338 Lapua start the 300 SMK at 2800 fps. A very devastating combination.

You guys and your damn 270's... I'm beginning to hate mine. SOB outshoots my 30-06

This is the way I would go. Im getting 3100fps out of mine with h1000 , shooting a hybrid ,feeding from a wyatts mag. deadly combo. Bob Carlock turned me onto this combo. Got a black bear at 1120 , flattened it.

M77. The 7 STW will deliver the good. I've killed antelope with it out to 1000 yards. The standard Nosler Accubonds shoots 1/2 MOA or better, fly true to the published BC, and at 1000 yds still leaves two holes on a broadside shot. The area I've elk hunted with my in-laws the last few years it too thick for the Long Shooter, but I've discovered some nice open glens with calm morning that could provide opportunities best exploited with the Long Shooter.

A buddy of mine has a .300 RUM set up for long range as well. He's shooting the 200gr NAB at 3200. Once he's back from the Desert I'm hoping we can transition it over to one of the LRAB's. It will be interesting to see what we can do with it.

Well said Pappy.

A good 7RM shooting 180s will get it done at that kind of distance. 300WM, or 300RUM would be another good option as well though if you don't mind dealing with a little more recoil.

Bullet, optics, and trigger time matter more than cartridge. A dedicated long range rifle needs a real scope. No turrets, or dots are not the same as dialing in.

Reverse engineer it. Determine what bullet performs best, regardless of caliber, at the velocity/distance you are wanting to shoot at. The cartridge/action length will follow.

I build rifles every year and practice at long range before I hunt. I pick the best rifle.

The cartridge does not matter as much as finding out how far away I can keep it in the kill zone.

After long range comparitive practice, the 7mmRM can hit the target further out for me that 267RAI, 260, or 270.