Just got back from a Wyoming deer hunt. Had a chance to observe some Californicators in action. The first day they showed up they killed a small buck we had passed on at 470 yds. In a 20+mph wind. I asked what they were shooting - one said 338 Lapua (magnum) I asked if it was a Gunwerks, and they said no, but they had a gunwerks turret.

Next day they went out and shot another buck, the smaller of two that were there. There were 6 shots within 5 minutes, and then 3 more over the next hour and a half. Over the radio, they told their buddies that the shot was 760 yards. The wind was even more than the day before. > 25mph in the open. I even peed 12+ ft - the full length of the truck bed and 4 ft further! Not sure what the wind was where they were. Have to give them the benefit of doubt - 6 one shot kills; no wait, there were only two of them.

The day after that, we killed a deer in the same drainage. They and us were the only hunters in that drainage. While walking out to get pack frames, I encountered a dead deer in the same area where the deer were when they shot. The deer had been buried, and the head was still covered in dirt. There was about a 30ft diameter circle of bare ground where soil had been moved to cover the deer. I could see a 3" dia bloody spot on the left front shoulder, which I am guessing was a bullet exit wound. The head of the deer was still covered. I didn't smell a rotten deer, but didn't stick around long for further examination. Brother Griz was around somewhere near, and I thought it best to get out before it decided I was a threat.

I don't KNOW that these fellows shot the deer; I don't know if they had a pass-thru; i dont know if they followed up on the wrong deer; I don't know if they shot it and left it. But it is very likely that they were associated with this deer's demise. All of those things are possibilities at close range, and may be even more likely at long range. Something to think about before you pull the trigger.

Just because you can doesn't mean you should. .

Welcome to the wonderful reality of long range hunting.

Turn their asses in.

No, welcome to the world of retards. The above is what you get when you combine people who don't know what they are doing, being supported and backed up by people who don't know what they are doing, proving that they don't know what they are doing.


How many times on this forum and even in this section has some dude who has no clue come in and asked- "what ______ do I need for LR deer/elk/hunting", and all you see is a bunch of clueless boobs suggesting this or that cartridge or piece of equipment. Never asking experience level of the poster, never guiding them into a course or class that will teach them, never giving any thought to learning what they are trying to do. Most of the time it's because those making suggestions have zero clue what they're doing themselves.


Wanna bet how many dudes didn't speak up about any of the above when the guys in the OP's story were all gearing up for "LR hunting"...?

Johnny, mom lied to you. Not everyone's opinion is worth something.

Exactly. What you speak of is the reality of long range hunting.

For every guy who gets the training and puts in the time, there's two boobs with credit cards who try and buy skill, in a game with little room for error.

Also, for every LR success story I hear about, see in person, or read on the net, I hear about at least an equal or larger number of long range failures. Usually they aren't published on the net, except by other parties.

Actually it's the reality of hunting, regardless of range. Except there's many more short range boobs per capita than long range boobs.

A rather realistic approach!

Shod

Low percentage shots are low percentage shots, and high percentage shots are high percentage shots. Distance does make things trickier.

If you're doing much missing, it's probably time to re-examine things.

I was at the "range" last week...... and I wouldn't trust 8 outta 10 of those "hunters" to hit a paper plate at anything over 100 yards. This isn't about Long Range hunting..... it's about people taking shots they shouldn't..... then not doing the right thing.

LR hunters get a bad rap...... yet there are slob hunters across the board . I guarantee there are far more deer shot and lost/left inside 200 yards than outside 500 yards every year.

You can't fix stupid..... though I'd often like the chance to beat it out of somebody.

Bow hunters today do the same thing. Lobbing arrows at a 100-yards ( I know some can, but the majority can't) so it is not the long-range is bad, it is few have the repeatable ability under field situations to make those kind of shots. I shoot a lot and there is a world of difference at the range versus in the field.....

That just about sums it up.

Tanner

Washington has a 3pt. min. rule for deer. Don't know how many big 2pt. mulies I have found that some yohead has shot cross canyon because they did not identify if it had a third point. I like to shoot long range, but unfortunately so can all the other idiots out there. No license needed to pull the trigger at 800 yards. Besides those guys like to brag at the LGS guncounter how their XXX caliber brought down a deer so far away they had to camp overnight to get there.

I concur 110% BluMtn and your area seems to be about the worst in the state. We have hunted your area for 25 years and the 2 point poaching is insane lately.

We watched 3 guys fling probably 35 rds from the fenceline of the road at a little 3x2 at 618 yds (lasered) hitting him once in the left front quarter and once in the ass.

When the shooting stopped they couldn't believe they had missed all those rounds. I asked them if they needed help to which they agreed. My buddy calmly got out, took a range and wind reading, spun his turrets and shot the deer behind the shoulder.

My buddy asked the shooters how far they thought the deer was, how they were zeroed and how they held. Both agreed it was at least 1k yds. One remarked that it should have been easy as he was dead on at 50 yds at the range so he held the bottom mildot of his 6-24 Tasco on top of the deers back.

He refused to believe that my buddy input 18" of elevation and 4.25" left for wind on the turrets from his 250 yds zero and held dead on to make the kill. They figured his bullet would hit the dirt well short and well left.

Farking idiots!!!!

Agree. In my neck of the woods, I've seen way too many "hunters" going up in cartridge horsepower in an attempt to make up for poor shooting skills.

What you guys are saying makes sense. Slobs will be slobs. Some of these guys would make bad shots regardless, but others are perfectly capable at shorter range.

The technology and mindset without the additional training needed makes for poor results at long range. The fact of the matter is, as range increases, the chance for error increases. That goes for everybody, skilled or otherwise.

Yes slobs are slobs, I shot an elk this weekend at a moderate range of 530 yards. I was shooting a 280AI. My shot poked a hole through the left shoulder and exited out the neck on the opposite side as the elk was quartering away at the shot. The elk started to side hill and and expired about 50 yards from where he stood at the shot. I talked to some other hunters later in the day who didn't see the elk until I shot, one proceeded to tell me he was at 600 yards away and had the elk in his scope as it was side hilling free hand, said he had a good shot and was about to drop it just before it went down...

The next day out of that same bunch of morons a guy, who is apparently the leader of the bunch said he missed an elk the night before at 730 yards. He said he shot over its back, and had held just a little too high. Then he told us he took the shot because he knew his bullet would go that far...

So yes slobs will be slobs, long range, short range, or just life in general, cased closed. So I'm not sure why people feel the need to attack people who have taken game at long range when it isn't about long range, it is about being a slob.

Yep

The long range shots that are taken and should not be taken are being taken by short range shooters.

I therefore perceive the problem to be a short range shooters problem!

Shod

My self imposed maximum yardage for an attempt at any shot varies from hour to hour ,moment to moment..... conditions, concentration and fatigue all play a part in any shot..... this year my practice level is way down and I shot an antelope at 200 yds. and was not too proud of the placement.
As far as others just flinging bullets anywhere....range does not matter, there are some that should not be allowed to hold an empty gun unsupervised , others where 1,000 yds. is a chip shot. Range is not the problem , peoples lack of knowledge and practice IS the problem.....

I agree with almost all of that but I would like to meet and shoot with the guy for whom the 1000 yard shot is a gimme.

Love it when some of the long rangers use the word "chip shot" and 1000 yards in the same sentence. Clearly clueless.

I want lessons!

Clearly...

In zero wind it is a chipshot.....

When people start talking about zero wind my BS meter goes off as well.

I have had days out shooting where I had no wind hold at 600 yards and couldn't feel a breeze, shot at 1100 yards and was surprised as hell to see two moa of drift at that range vs nothing at 600.

If it is truly zero wind which I have never had the pleasure of shooting in then yes, dial and shoot you should hit what you are aiming at.

In a hunting situation however there are a lot of factors that go into that 1000 yard chip shot that make it anything but a chip shot. YMMV

rcamuglia, Just how do you know there's zero wind, ever, when hunting? Please explain.

Do you set wind flags up between you and the animal?

My shpeal is:
If we plug in the average wind speed for the USA, 7.4 mph, with the average long range competition rifle, a 308 with 155 palma bullet at 2900 fps, we get some errors:

50 yards = 0.35 moa = 0.175" -> you can hit a fly
100 yards =0.72 moa =0.72" -> you can hit a mouse
200 yards =1.42 moa =2.8" -> you can hit a bunny rabbit
400 yards =3.01 moa =12" -> you can hit a deer
800 yards =7.22 moa =58" -> you can hit a car
1600 yards =18.77 moa =300" -> you can hit a bus

How am I getting deer up to 510 yards?
By shooting so early in the morning, the Kestrel prop does not turn.

And there are the animals that do not move much after being shot at, and if you see the dust fly up, you have a spotter shot.... then the chances change.

The post speaks for itself. In a no wind situation like heavywalker says, dial and hold on the target. Yes, there is coriolis depending on the azimuth of fire and spin drift which you will account for if you want to be precise.

Have I encountered zero wind holds at 1000?

Of course. If you never have, you haven't shot much. I've killed a couple of things at long range, 934, 800, 760, 840 (minimal wind hold of less than a quarter mil) etc with zero wind holds. How do I know there's no wind? It's called "reading the wind" and if you can't do it, you shouldn't be shooting animals at long range.



I don't. Do you?

I shoot a hell of a lot more steel at long range than animals with no wind flags set up. You may want to try it.

That set up is far from average. It basically is at the bottom of the barrel and sucks hind tit compared to what someone who knows even a little about ballistics would choose for a Long Range Rifle if they gave a rat's azz about increasing their hit percentage.

Clarkm,

Do the same 7.4 mph with a high BC high velocity bullet. Any you want to choose and let us know if it is better for long range shooting over the.308 155 @ 2,900 fps.

I've had minimal wind holds but zero wind is a first for me I have killed game animals up to 1031 yards and had very little wind but it was still there.

Living and doing most of my shooting/hunting on the coast makes for very few calm days and none that I have had with zero wind.

Excellent post. I agree!!

You guys that are shooting at great distance, how do you read and compensate for mirage...the "boil".?I hear a lot about wind but no one ever mentions mirage.

I would think it would be a factor, even on days when the wind isn't there?

BobinNH, there are plenty of guys that shoots way further than I do, and they might be able to shed more light on this, but mirage can also help with judging wind. If you use your side focus and turn it back and forward to focus on specific distance you can actually focus on the mirage itself and it will indicate the direction in which the air moves at that distance.

I do however prefer to shoot early mornings and late afternoons, as it is just more pleasant and wind tends to be less.

Pieter

Serious question on getting an accurate range on a deer in the field at 1000 yards. What percentage of the time is this a big enough problem to make the chip shot not a chip shot? Looks like an error of as little as 10 yards could cause a miss.

Well, smoke, if anybody tells you they are using a Leupold, Nikon, Zeiss, etc. rangefinders out to 1000 yards and getting accurate readings they are full of bull. Takes a lot of power from a LRF to read a soft target at that distance or the deer are wearing reflective targets. At a minimun a 2000 yard LRF would be needed, which none of the above noted LRF have that kind of power.

Not to mention brush, trees etc. I passed up a shot between 370 and 390 yds because I would have to squueeze the bullet thru an opening in tree tops - shooting across two draws. Range was variable because I couldn't get a range on the deer - only on a tree crown above it (390) and another crown upslope and closer. In open conditions I will take that shot; but those weren't open conditions. And the deer would have had to do the Heisman pose for an effective shot. .

With targets there is no consequence of missing except perhaps an embarrasing silence. On game, we are not just trying for a hit, we are trying for a KILL SHOT. Anything less is immoral.

Back to the sidelines . .

Well, that wasn't my question, I should've said, assuming you have the right set-up for that distance. Which brings up another question and that is, which rangefinders would you trust for that distance?

And to be clear, I'm not contemplating or gearing up for shots on game at that distance, those would be a driver and a nine-iron for me. It's more a question of curiosity.

Well I have gotten accurate readings up to 1035 yards on antelope with a Swarovski range finder. The trajectory was perfect.

Thanks. Was that a one-time thing or can you do that with the swaro pretty consistently?

Swarovski has been good for me on deer and elk out past 1k, in good conditions (no rain or fog).

Consistently.

Think Vectronix when you want to do it on a very regular basis.

Copied from: http://www.6mmbr.com/rangefinders.html
Swarovski Laser Guide:
Aiming circle (13 MOA inside diameter) is too large. Makes aiming small objects at long distance tricky business. Some delay (latency) when scanning in normal mode.

G7 BR-2.

I'll make sure I tell all the game I kill that I should have used a different range finder.

Vectronix rules from what I've seen.

I have a Terrapin and it's an improvement over Geovids, especially at 1000+, but the 5000$ model Vectronix blows them all away.

A buddy was guiding on a ranch I was hunting for antelope and has the more expensive model. It was really the only range finder that would get readings on animals past 1000. The G7's were basically worthless.

I used the Geovids and the Terrapin to verify if I could get readings. Getting readings with the Geovids was sketchy...

You mean you can not center the target in the circle? Not that difficult with practice I have found.
Yes when going past 1,000 yards the Vectronix is the best.

Antelope seem to be the hardest to get an accurate reading on out on an open flat.... If i can not get three accurate readings with my Leica, I do not shoot, helps limit my ranges....There are areas here you can literally see the curve of the earth . Even if you could get a reading you probably should not shot ......and even at them distances the antelope seem to be staring right at me......

P.S. In my previous comment I mentioned a 1000 yd. chip shot. I did not include myself in that. I do know people that make first round hits way past what I would even consider , regularly! In all kinds of weather. I only shoot when absolutely confident in a kill shot. As stated before my practice time and general stress levels have not allowed for any kind of distance shooting and I stuck to it.
Just because you can see them and have the equipment to shoot , does not mean you should shoot and that is for each person to decide for them self.....
If I am clueless ,so be it. Everyone is allowed to have an opinion.

Here's a target at 1000 being worked over. It was the first time at that range with this new rifle and load. As you can see, there is a group on the plate made with the data spit out by Ballistic AE on the first try. It was a little high and I didn't have the wind perfect either.

I made the necessary adjustment on the scope and of course had a better wind knowledge of what the wind was doing, even though it wasn't consistent. It was coming from 10 or 11 O'clock. During the session, I saw wind holds of 1 full mil and also some zero wind holds.

The far left plate is 8" wide and 10" tall; less than one MOA. With a .264 Win and a newly developed load, I put a first round hit and 3 consecutive shots on that little plate with fresh data from Ballistic AE.





This stuff really isn't that difficult. I took my 63 year old sister out this weekend who has no experience with any firearms whatsoever. She is not an athlete in the least and really is a clutz. She didn't really want to even go shooting.

I set the rifle up and got her behind it on the bench so she could sight on some 100 yard paper. Let her dry fire it a few times then moved to our 760 yard plate. I shot the plate a few times. The wind was really tricky; fishtailing wind from 12:00. I hate that wind either from 6:00 or 12:00. It's by far the toughest wind to read and make hits in. If the direction changes minutely, you miss to one side or the other.

She fired 2 shots that day and can say she's never missed anything with a rifle, even at Long Range

What's a Terrapin cost? Looks like it's been discontinued?

Cows really aid in getting reading in some of the areas I antelope hunt.

When they were available the Terrapins sold for $2K.

That's a pretty big price difference between swaro's sometimes at $900 and always at $2K. LOL You swaro lovers kill me!

These guys still have some. I bought mine from them...


http://www.prgdefense.com/products/manufacturers/vectronix-old/terrapin.aspx#.VFvY6vnF-So

This suggest an ability to be successful, implying that you should.

That's the most profoundest thing I've heard yet.

How do you read the wind? Please explain.

I'm sure you're an awesome shot and all. Curious to how many animals you've missed at 600+.

I have a friend or two that know a little about taking a long shot. One's got a nice .284 with a quality scope and vector rangefinder. I've seen him twice take animals past 700m this year. My 13 yr old son rolled behind his rifle and his a volleyball sized rock at 1380m, first shot. But that was after he'd dialed the wind tightly with two shots.

So my question is, how do you "read the wind" with confidence, at 1000? Just curious.

Your friend, Pat, is an acquaintance of mine. You may want to ask him

That setup was purpose built to handicap!

Kinda like dirtying up the aero in NASCAR to slow cars down.

Mike

How would he know how often you miss and how you can read the wind?

I'm not judging. I've taken risky shots. Do your 1000 yard "chip shots" involve a spotter watching for bullet strikes, due to lack of total confidence on the wind on the first crack?

How many legs have you blown off? Just curious.

I have used my swaro to range antelope at 1122 yards.

He's seen me shoot and is aware of how I stack up against some of the best in the Country in open competition. That pretty much sums up how often I miss and the quality of my wind reading skills. The other great thing is that it has been documented for anyone who wants to know.

Never have blown a leg off.

Why do you have such a hard on?

Well, I don't have a hard-on for long-range shooters, I respect the work that goes into it. And I agree with everything that's been said about slobs being slobs regardless of the range they shoot at, and about more game being wounded at 200 yards and under than long range.

Long-range shooters practice more and good ones can hit at long range much more consistently than your average hunter can hit at short or moderate ranges. And sometimes no matter what the range, stuff happens. I knew a very accomplished old-timer who used to say "if you haven't missed, you either haven't hunted a lot or you're not trying hard enough." And I never knew him to miss. He wasn't careless or unethical, just truthful.

But I'm still skeptical of the 1,000 yard chip shot, granted I'm talking hunting animals in the field, not steel at the range. And maybe it boils down to what you mean by "chip shot," to me, it means pretty much a sure thing.

There have been two threads on this forum this season by good long range shooters who had first shot misses at around 1,000 yards, one due to the wind read and one due to the animal moving after it was ranged. I'm not being critical, just making an observation.

If either shot had been at 300, then the wind and range wouldn't have mattered, and they would have been true chip shots.

That would seem to take 1,000 yard shots out of the chip shot realm.

I'll say it again. For anyone who has verified drop data for his load, the above is true.

See, wind is THE thing in long range shooting. It's variable. Drop data changes with atmosphere, which is known at your location. If you aren't accounting for atmospheric changes and the resulting drop data, well...

Let's go as far as to say the 1000 yard shot is in a "tunnel"

How much easier could it get?

When was the last time you hunted in a tunnel?

You can't make an amazing shot, if you don't take an amazing shot.

If there's lead in the air, there's hope.

Not to hijack this thread, but where are the big mule deer picks GH?

I did shoot a mule deer last week. I don't shoot steel. I did take 2 shots with this rifle this fall - one to check the zero, the other to take the buck.

Thanks.....Very nice....

Congrats.

Back to the regularly scheduled program.

Sounds like you're shooting way too much

Hell of a deer!

I was thinking the same thing.

If I shot that much I would have complete confidence in my scope. But as it is I fired enough rounds to discover the turret or the load is not dependable.

Actually, wind was only one of THE things that caused the misses at 1000 yards I referred to earlier, but carry on.

This thread reminds me of a Pigman show I watched. He picked up a big 30 cal based on the 500 Jeffery shooting 208's on the way out to an antelope hunt. I don't think he'd even fired the gun once before trying to take a 900+ yd shot at a middling buck in what looked to be gale force crosswinds. He hit the dirt about a truck-length downwind on the shot. It was pathetic. And everything that can be wrong with the LR game.

These Cally guys, I can't figure out WTF they were doing taking shots in 20+ winds, regardless of the gun or shooter ability. I couldn't do it, and wouldn't dare try. The 500+yd shots I see have air moving in at least two distinct directions because of ridgelines, etc.

I think the wind call is the thing, once load development and zeroing are done, and the trajectory is solved. I can't read wind for [bleep], I'll admit it. I pass on more shots than I take because of that. Some of you guys know your stuff, and can make sense of what the wind does. Do any of you take long shots at animals in 20mph+ winds?

I am with you, here the wind goes in about three different directions in 500 yds. I spent the whole antelope season trying to figure out how to get to a certain group of goats because of wind... There was not a way to figure out a wind drop because it would switch about every 20 seconds. I waited til a 200 yd. shot presented itself.

I have shooting buddies who, this year, have killed antelope in 30mph wind at around 1000. One killed a buck at 1503. I don't know the wind situation on that one.

Buddy just texted me a 5 shot group on 1485 yard steel in 12 mph wind that required 3.25 MILS of hold that would fit in the palm of your hand

Phuggging amazing.

That's [bleep] insane! Some guys know their schitt, and have the magic!