I have seen the hype of the Remigton 700 muzzleloader. Being someone that is brand new to muzzleloading I know next to nothing about it. I do know that the higher velocities acheivable with the Remington appeals to me, but the rifle runs nearly twice what other muzzleloaders go for. Are there other muzzleloaders that offer similar longer range performance?

Savage 10 ML. You'd get better responses if you posted this on the muzzleloader forum.

I posted it there too, but I would really like to get a muzzleloader to shoot out to 500 yards, so I posted it here also.

I've got a Savage ML-II stainless laminate here in Ohio that needs a new home. I took it to 300, but with the Parker Match Hunter and stronger than 6x, you just might get to 500.

PM me if you're interested.

this one
http://ultimatefirearms.com/

gbp these are great guns seen them an seen them work 4 an 5 pellets great killer out to 600 yards with the right scope an bullet

I built a smokeless one on a Savage target action, 25" brux pre-fit barrel, hs precision stock. 69.2 grains of H4198 spits 300gr Parker bullets out at 2630 fps with about 4,000 ft/lbs of energy at the muzzle. Shot two deer and two hogs with it last year and none even wiggled after the shot.

jsthn241
What bore diameter. Thanks for your time. Cheers NC

The Brux are .450/.458 barrels; mine is 1-18 twist and 28" long. The Parkers are .451x" and smooth sized to fit (although you can partially full form them) but I started making my own .458 OTM version.

How hard is it to push the Parkers or your bullets down the barrel?
And whats the highest BC bullets you can make for the 50 cal ml's with your process?
Thx
Elmer

The way I size them I can seat them with one firm hand or two light hands. The Parkers vary in BC anywhere from the .2s to the .4s. Mine are probably in the low .4s but I just started making them and an still sorting out bullet weight and precision before I go to BC testing.

So if i were to use the parkers in my regular t/c encore I could probably extend my range a little further than with 250gr sst with sabots that i currently use?
A .4 bc in the 275gr range would be great deer bullet out to 350 yards out of my Encore.
Hmmm, more testing is in order I guess.
Thanks
Elmer

The Parker BE line is like any other ML bullet, just a pointy brick. The 300 and 327 MH are the bullet to shoot if you are trying to push range.

You need to go to dougs message board and read for a couple hours in the smokeless forum.

I have shot the 300 Parker BE's out to 500 yards and over a chrony many times. I get a .240 BC for them based on drops. I would think the match hunters would be over .3 but not over .4

If I had to do it over again I would go the pedersoli Gibbs route.My savage is doing the job just fine fwiw.

After building a slufoot conversion on a 45-70 handi-rifle there is no way I'd ever shoot a pyrodex based gun again.

^^ is the way to go. Would have saved me 1400 on the build I did. I've got more in a Muzz that I use a few times a year than I do all my hunting rifles combined.

Accuracy out to 500 yards and reservations about the cost of a Remington ML are oximorons.

I can see where "500yds muzzleloader accuracy" is an oxymoron to the uninformed. I would say "cheap muzzleloader offering precision and accuracy" is contradictory. Reservations about spending close to a grand on a rifle is not contradictory or an oxymoron; its a reasonable concern for a guy on a budget.

The juxtaposition of cost and performance is called cost/benefit analysis; what it usually offers up is that performance costs money and tiny gains over what is actually needed cost quite a lot more. For example, a Knight will get 99% of your shooting done, a Rem UM will too and cost similar money. A conversion on a 700ML will set you back $1100-$2000. A smokeless muzzleloader on a CF action can cost upwards of $4000 but has not gained an appreciable advantage over the Knight, just some conveniences.

Same can be said of centerfire guns. If you have a gun that is capable of 1MOA you are in good shape. It costs more money to get a gun that will produce .5MOA, day in and day out. A gun that will reliably produce .3MOA groups costs quite a lot more.

Optics too, how much do you really need. Lots of guys are shooting Bushnell Elite Tacticals in matches and winning. It costs more to go to a Nightforce with comparable features. A Schmidt and Bender costs 1/3 again as much.

Is one really 3x as good and does it justify 3x the cost?

Dude, what boat are you sailing on? What conversion are you reffering to?

And if you are going to quote someone, at least quote them accurately. "Accuracy out to 500 yards and reservations about the cost of a Remington ML are oximorons."

Savage target action. 550
Brux barrel. 460
Plug with .040 bus 120
Hs stock 360
Mz brake and inst. 140
Nut and lug. 90
Smithing fees to fix Luke's screw up 150$
Boltface for 209. 65
Rod, jag, funnel 90
Swing lock die. 160

I'm sure I missed a few things but that's ballpark

So...is that more than Remington's new off the shelf ML?

No clue I don't buy anything Remington off the shelf.

Off the shelf and Remington ML was pretty much the essence of the OP's question.

GB,

I didn't quote you, I paraphrased you. All I am saying is that a Rem Ultimate is not an insignificant investment for some people. I shoot a NULA smokeless muzzleloader, a Remington 700ML converted to smokeless, and another smokeless gun built on a Pierce single-shot that was purpose built for that gun. Each offers a step up in performance but probably not a great return on investment. I can say, for certain, that the increase in cost does not gain you a huge advantage over a Remington Ultimate.

The conversions I am talking about are high performance muzzleloaders and were offered up as a frame of reference in regard to cost/benefit. The Remington Ultimate is a lot of gun but expensive for what it is and the OP is not wrong to have reservations about buying one when for a little more he can get a more and for a little less he can get close.

The OP mentioned he wanted to get 500 yards. I do not believe he will get that with the Remington Ultimate. And if the Remington is the price point that causes his knees to buckle, I don't believe he'll get 500 yards with something costing less.

I think on this we agree.

Cant a guy ask a question with out a bunch of bitches raging on him? There is nothing wrong with a person trying to get what they want with the amount they want to spend.

To the OP, ignore the naysayers

I have found the BC of the Parker 270 E max to be around 0.23 to 0.24 form my Savage Brux at 3015 fps. FWIW

That is just about right for all the BE line. I haven't shot the E-MAX. Their shoebox flight characteristics pushed me to the 300 and 327 Match Hunter and ultimately to swage my own bullets.

I built mine on a 700 I already had as a switch barrel. Brux 45 cal shooting the 300 grain parkers, and a bunch other MUCH cheaper bullets!! I had a NM Ibex tag and my smith built a breech plug using 45acp brass with 209 primers. I had to shoot it with a bp substitute in NM and was getting like(don't remember exactly) 2400 fps with 170 grain blackhorn 209(volume). I felt good to 500, killed the Ibex at 380. Gun was STUPID EASY to be a tack driver. I can also shoot it with smokeless powder and can get a lot more speed out of it with still being a tack driver. I am using a full forum Swinglok die to size bullets if needed. Do some looking on Doougs message board under savage smokeless forum. The guys over there play with these a ton.
Seriously the easiest gun I have ever had to set and cut bullet holes with just about anything you shove down it.

Actually pretty darn easy to push a proper size bullet down the barrel. Much easier then what I used to do with a knight and sabots