Hi Guys:

I just got off the phone with Dick Davis at McMillan (he sounds great!), and he clarified for me the issue of fill weights for McMillan hunting stocks.

The straight skinny is as follows:

McMillan hunting stocks come in three fill weights, and three fill weights only:

1] Magnum fill (for magnum calibers)

2] Standard fill (will weigh 2 to 2.25 pounds)

3] EDGE technology.

That's it. Bottom line.

"Light as possible for caliber" gets standard fill.

"KS" or "kevlar" fill gets standard fill.

Magnum, standard, EDGE. Them's the choices.

The shopping cart here has been modified accordingly.

Rick

This is EXTREMELY helpful. Thank You!!!

So can edge fill be put it a non-edge stock?

That sure makes it simple, I wonder if the mcmillan folks laughed at everyone calling and asking for ks fill, weatherby fill, sniper fill, etc or did they change how they are doing it?

I always wondered where these fill names came from since I never saw reference to all of them on the website.

I think is is very unfortunate that McMillan is taking this stance, and am afraid that they are quickly losing the lead in the market. They still make a fantastic product, but there are a whole bunch of up and comers that are also making great stuff, with better designs, and lighter weights.

I miss the days of being able to get a 28oz Mtn Rifle stock. It is unfortunate that McMillan is now forcing customers to choose either a heavy-ish hunting stock, or a light-ish hunting stock, with nothing in between.

I was told by a nice gal at McMillan that the magnum fill is more for big magnums like 375HH, 458 etc.

I don't want my 300 stock coming back like a brick. Does this mean it won't get the standard fill, and instead will receive the magnum fill?

CAS - BINGO.
Bansner and Manners are looking better.....
Course they always have for me. I guess all my stewing over fill was just that, mental gymnastics.........
Dave

I had a MR pattern on a nice 280AI that weighed (IIRC) 40oz. It was a TANK. Sold the whole rifle. I believe it was a magnum fill.

Rick--
In a stock of the same configuration except for fill, how much difference in weight is there between a standard and magnum fill?

Dave,

Easy on the Bansners.......... They aren't in the same league as either Mcmillan or Manners, quality wise, IME.

I have my first Manners Model 70 stock due to show up shortly. Had Mcmillan offered a suitable style for the Model 70, I never would have strayed. Unfortunately thier "Supergrade" pattern (the only real alternative for a sporter weight model 70) is grossly outdated. I wish that they would at a minimum, dupe the late production Supergrade stock, if not design a new one from scratch.

If that is a change from how they have done things I can see that it would make life simpler for them but it sure limits the customers options and flexibility that they had before. That was Mcmillans niche in my opinion.

Understand Charlie. "I" just have never had those issues with the Bansners but have no doubt that they can/do exist.
Heck I'm easy I like the CDL and SPS stocks..... Guess you can label me the "normal" guy that Remington targets.....

Dave

Oh and I haven't had the experience (read that volume) of the Bansners either...

Nope. EDGE fill is available in EDGE stocks only.

This is absolutely not an issue with me. McMillan still makes the best stocks, hands down, with the most options.

EDGE stocks are the best stocks on the market, if you ask me.

Rick

Rick, you ever feel like a school teacher?... (grin)

What??!!

I thought virtually all their stock patterns were available in the EDGE technology (ultra light 21-23 oz).

If I'm reading McMillan's sight correctly, they only list three (3) EDGE stocks:

Hunters EDGE
EDGE Benchrest
EDGE HBR

Please don't tell me I can't get a Remington Mountain Rifle, CZ AHR, or Winchester Supergrade in the EDGE???

They make a great stock but if you are looking for a lightweight stock and its not for a remington you have no choice but to look elsewhere.

I have one McMillan on order through Rick but the next two went elsewhere because McMillan didn't make a lighter stock for my action.

I don't blame McMillan, with a 4 month backlog, they seem to have all the business they can handle. I wish I could get the stock I want with the McMillan quality but I can't so I will see how Banser and MPI are and go from there.

I am pretty sure they offer all of their stocks with the edge technology.......Blake

MPI are complete schitt.... Save your money.

I've heard that often and from more than one source. Which is why it surprised me that Waffen. Hein prefers the MPI stock for their Palouse Trophy series.

A picture is worth 1000 words. MPI quality, in a nutshell......

William:

No, not correct.

In hunting patterns, all but the Ruger stocks can be built with their carbon-fiber EDGE technology.

For example, as in your case, you can have a Mountain Rifle pattern built in standard fill, fiberglass, and it will weigh 32 ounces or maybe a couple more, and you can also build that Mountain Rifle pattern in carbon-fiber EDGE technology, and it will weigh more like 23-24 ounces finished.

The EDGE construction is a few bucks more (and well worth it in my opinion!)

Rick

noKnees:

You can have an EDGE stock for everything but a Ruger.

Said another way, every hunting stock McMillan makes, except for Rugers, can be had in EDGE technology and finish at roughly 24 ounces.

They offer LOTS of choices.

Rick

WTF..... is that popsicle sticks??!!

Rick,
I know. I have 16 M77s and counting.(three more in the works as we speak). can't quit now. I really like the McMillan ruger R stock and Although I don't really like the pattern on the McMillan MkII classic, I could deal with it.

But Rugers suffer a couple of OZ weight disadvantage in the action so if you want a lighter than average rifle you need to save a few ounces elsewhere. I will see how the Banser and MPI goes. If that doesn't work out there is always Brown.

Who knows someday I might build a remmington.. Yah right

Rick,

Check your Campfire customer service e-mail...........just sent you a note on my existing order that is in.

This requires a change from what we agreed on a month or so ago.

A stock with "light as possible for caliber" fill now being called "Standard fill" and coming in at 32 oz+ just isn't what I had intended on getting.

I do not see this as a good thing for McM............back to the boat anchor weight stocks. UNLESS we want to pay $500 for an edge.

MM

MM:

Responded.


To all:

The thing is, from what Dick told me, this is the way they've been doing it all along.

I ALWAYS quoted 32 ounces as the more-or-less target weight of "light-as-possibe-for-caliber" fill, and they regularly came out that way.

I believe this to be a clarification of terminology, and NOT a change in policy.

McMillan is continuing to do what they've always done.

Rick

Why the couple oz variance in stocks of the same pattern? For example Mtn Hunter spec'd KS fill on a Classic Swirly and it came in at 25oz sans pad. That sounds like a slight modification on the fill to me if you take into account a 5 oz pad.

Rick,

Check MtnHtr's post under McM Swirlys topic on Rem Classic he just recently received:

Quote: "McM Classic 50% Purple, 25% lite Grey, 25% Black
KS fill

25oz pictured

MtnHtr"

This was ordered with "KS" fill..........

This is why I'm not overly happy about now paying an additional $100 for the weight reduction. I'd be happy with 26-27 oz but not 32+.

MM

Rick,

I don't think that is correct. Both Dick and Kelly have both told me about the KS fill. In fact there is a quote on your very site from Kelly talking about getting a Mtn rifle stock in KS Fill that would weigh about 28oz:

"We can make a Remington Mountain rifle stock weigh 28-30 ounces without using EDGE technology(for a .223 AI it would be at the lighter end Specify Rem KS fill)."

You can see the actual post here.

I also know it to be the case because I have a bunch of Mtn Rifle stocks that weigh in the 28oz range, though none of recent manufacture. At some point they did change things, and it is unfortunate.

Charley:

I had heard about KS "fill," but always assumed it was actually the Kevlar Special stocks that McMillan made for the Rem Custom Shop. I had a whole slew of those, and they all weighed in at about 24 ounces with pads, so when I heard 28 ounces, I wondered why I had all the light ones.

I built this .338 on one:



and this .270 Ti wears one too:



and I just bedded a .223 bull-barrelled action into a custom shop 40XB-Kevlar Special blank this past weekend.

But I never did see one in molded-in, like Mtn Hunter apparently has. That's a new one for me.

So, I am happy to stand corrected on the KS Fill thing. I just assumed it was the Rem Custom Shop stuff.

In any case, at various times, even before EDGE, I tried to get "KS FILL" and never could, and from there is where "light as possible for caliber" came, which apparently has been 32-ounce standard fill all along.

But I have one question: Is 28 ounces somehow a magic weight for rifle stocks, with 24 ounces being "lightish and 32 ounces "heavyish?"

I'm not sure I'm on board with that characterization. That's a pretty narrow window, and compared to a wood stock, 32 ounces is certainly light.

Anyway, I can't see how this affects my future purchases one bit. Like I've said, I'm sold, sold, sold on EDGE stocks, and that's where my money is going. IMO nothing comes close.

Rick

Rick,

There's no question about the quality and properties of the Edge; I wouldn't have just upgraded my order if there was........it's just the issue of another $100 to get to 23-24 oz when we were under the impression that for the $100 less, we were going to get stocks with "KS fill" or "lightest for caliber" coming in at 26-27 oz.

Now we are told that "lightest for caliber" actually means "Standard" and that equates to >32 oz.

Hope you see where I'm coming from here.

MM

MM:

I do.

The difference is $65 in Campfire prices ... $435 to $495.

I have never been able to get a "KS Fill" from McMillan. All my KS were overrun Rem Custom Shop patterns that I bought from a third party, and these were stocks made in 1999-2000. I bought them as a lot in 2002 I think.

Before EDGE, the lightest stock I was ever able to get directly from McM was 32 ounces (light as possible for caliber aka standard fill), which is why I used Bansners back BE (before EDGE).

Since EDGE, I see no other players in the 25-ounce game worth my time.

Like I said, "KS FILL" never happened for me.

Rick

Guys,
This is not a change in procedures, this is the way it always has been. We make all our stocks as light as we think we can and not have a lot of failures with broken out recoil lugs or fore-ends broken off trying to get the barreled action out of the stock after a bedding job.
We have always gotten a lot of orders requesting "light fill" or "light as possible fill" or "KS" fill or "mountain rifle fill" or "upside-down left-hand Vulcan fill", and we have always filled the stocks with our standard fill. That is "light as possible". We have always gotten a small weight variation in our stocks, one or two or three ounces. It is not the exact science you may think. Molded in colors weigh an ounce or two more than a painted stock. The resin is warmer in the summer than in the winter and may have a bit more bleed out of the mold when it's under pressure,etc. There are a lot of little variables.
When we mix in interior fill for the stocks it is mixed in big Hobart bread mixers in batches of 10 lbs or 20 lbs. Each batch has a certain receipe for that fill. When we started doing the KS stocks for Remington we needed to take about one, repeat one, ounce off the stocks to make their weight, so we added one extra cup of microbaloons to the standard fill to make KS fill. It saved about one ounce per stock. We only mixed it when we had a batch of KS stocks to fill. We have never mixed up a batch to use 3/4 of a pound to fill one stock and then thrown the other 9+ lbs away just to save one ounce on a single stock. Since Remington is discontinuing the "KS" rifles after a 25 year run due to lack of sales we will not be mixing KS fill again.
Doesn't matter, we never did it anyway except for the KS stocks and there is more that one ounce variation in the stocks anyway.
So, nothing has changed. The stocks will not be any heavier than they have ever been. We are not making them any different that we have for the last 10 or 15 years. We will still accept orders with any terminology of fill you want to say, and we will still make them the way we have always made them "as light as possible". It's just that now you know how it's really done. Magnum fill is just a more solid glass (more glass fibers in the resin)in the action area, and adds about 4 to 6 ounces to the stock. It's used for anything from the big .338's and up. Standard fill seems to be fine for all the calibers up thru the big .30's. "Sniper fill" is just "magnum fill" with the butt filled with the same light weight solid mixture we use in the fore-end so that it will support some of the hareware options.
The only reason I decided to bring this subject up is because my e-mail volume is way up (I'm not complaining) but so I didn't have to answer so many e-mail about the weight difference between "light fill", "light as possible fill", "KS fill" and "mountain rifle fill". The answer is "none at all"
Regards to all, Dick D.

Thank you, sir.

Rick

Oops, I should also mention that the size of the stock (interior volume to fill) and the inletting specs account for most of the weight variation in the stocks. A skinney little slender pattern like a RMR or a Rem. Compact inletted for a long 700, BDL floorplate and a magnum contour barrel will weight a lot less that a big Remington Hunter or Lazzeroni Thumbhole inletted for a short 700, blind magazine and a mountain rifle barrel contour. We havn't been able to change the laws of phyics and the more material you cut out of a stock the less it weighs.
Dick

Sounds like coersion or blackmail? I'm glad I like the Borden Rimrock!

For What its worth..

My .338 WM M-70 has a pillar bedded, ultra light stock from McMillian on it. I could not be happier. The bedding job came back with a serial # in the barrel channel, the best I've ever seen.

Bob

Thanks much for the clear and detailed answer, Dick D. That explains much.

It's all clear as resin now!

I really appreciate the connection that the campfire provides to people like Dick so that we can the most informed decisions we can about the products we buy and the services we use.

Rick--thank much.

Dick,

Thanks for the response. Looks like I am the one who stands corrected.

I guess that it was just fortunate coincidence that the Mtn Rifle patterns I got several years back were all in the 28oz range, and recent ones have all been 32oz+.

My hunch is that some of the guys at McMillan may have taken it upon themselves to fill lighter when "light as possible" was specified, but it was not McMillans company policy to do so.

Agian, this is only a hunch, so Dick, don't crucify me if I'm wrong.

If we could only get gelcoat finishes on the edge stocks....

It's still not clear to me.

I just got off the phone with a customer service gal(didn't catch her name) at Mcmillan
I explained to her what Dick posted regarding fill weights and calibers(338 and up-Magnum fill, standard calibers up to the big 30 calibers-Standard fill)

Her response to me was that my 300 win mag had to be put into a stock with magnum fill and that a standard fill would not hold up under recoil. She also said that that was the only way they have ever done it unless I wanted to go the EDGE route.( this was the same response I recieved when I called 2 months ago and asked which fill I needed). Now I'm hearing I could have saved 6 ounces on fill weight and that my stock is already to far along in the production process to change things.

I'm surely not wanting to create a problem for anyone in customer service at McMillan but the gal I talked to seemed confused when I mentioned 338 cal vs 30 cal and I got the feeling that to her a magnum was a magnum. Sounds like I'm SOL because personnel at McMillan are not on the same page.

Having said all that, can someone tell me offhand what an average walnut stock on a remington 700 or winchester 70 long action BDL weighs?(ie; is a 36 oz McMillan going to be lighter than the original wood that was on this rifle?

Leftybolt

Off subject a little...how can I check the status of an order from Ric's Christmas sale? I would love to get my hands on my A3.

Guys, guys, guys,
I just have a meeting with all the ladies that handle the orders and all of them know that we only put magnum fill in stocks for calibers in the range of the bigger .338's and up.
They all know that the .30's do not require this and do not tell customers that. Lynne remembers an customer calling about this yesterday or this morning and asking about this and wanting to change an order. The order is a 24hourcampfire order thru Rick and we do not change these orders. The order from Rick (from December) nsaid "Magnum fill" and that is how we have to do it. Only Rick can change any order he has in, and, to the best of our ability we do not discuss these orders with anyone but Rick. So don't call and ask about them, we only discuss orders with the person who placed them with us.
No disrespect intended Leftybolt, but all the ladies are quite knowledgeable about this and would not have told a customer this, unless it was just a mis-understanding about terminology.

Yeah, my Mountain Rifle stock in ADL config. got here today (net special)VERY NICE! Now I see what I have been missing! Mine weighs 32 1/4 oz.

Dick, glad to see you are feeling better.

DickD,

No offense taken. You have a PM.

Leftybolt

Another example of why I love this site...

There are other "good" sites and stocks out there...

But for the "best" come to the Campfire and buy McMillans


Thanks Rick & Dick


Mike

Weight on a new swirl pattern Remington Classic with SA BDL action inlet, 1" Decelerator, and magnum barrel channel: 32.25oz

I read an old Dogzapper article dating back to 1997 and he referred to a "Canadian Fill" McM stock. That was a new one for me.

And I have absolutely no freakin' idea what "Canadian Fill" is. I was simply repeating the words of a gunsmith I was using at the time (Darrell Holland). He was high on that fill and I accepted him at his word.

Steve

Dogzapper: Maybe Darrell was talking about Whisky? Thats the only Canadian Fill I know.

Hey BTW, I peaked under the skin of the Holland 7-08AI I bought last year from your friend Steve, and to my surprise there is a Blue McSquirrely underneath.

Rick,
I guess I may be stirring the pot somewhat with my comment and inquiry. You told me some time back that the Edge could very likely be inletted for my Wby MK V. I did not take you up on the offer because there is no place I can go to handle one of these or any other McMillan for that matter. Eventually, the Wby was custom stocked by Match Grade Arms in Spring, Tx. The design chosen was the 700 Classic, no cheek piece. My stock weighs 20 ounces. I really like it.
That was the comment, now for the inquiry:
Is there someway one could obtain a McM of a certain design simply to handle it and then return it? I am very interested in the Mountain Rifle stock JPro posted a pic of for my 3 Rem's. I would want to handle it, however, before I plunk down my "sawmill dollars."

Reloder28,

If you don't find a solution with Ric, I have some McMillan's you are welcome to come over and handle. I currently have rifles stocked with a McMillan Sporter and a McMillan Classic plus I have a McMillan Mountain Rifle pattern that doesn't have an action in it as yet.

Paul

FWIW, I have also had the factory Remington Mountain Rifle stocks and they feel the same dimensionally as the McMillan. With the exception of some of the outsourced fiberglass handles, most of the 700 stocks that Remington has used in the past fit me well.

I wrote McMillan last year if they inletted patterns other than their Weatherby models for the Mark V action. Their answer was no, with the exception of the tacticals & the HTG.

Did you say a MK V action in an HTG?

I regards to Bansners vs. McMillan I have both stocks and can say that McMillan in my opionion is the better option. Both stocks are much better than factory, however, I personally have a problem with a stock that lacks checkering and is slick. As much as i love the Mark Bansner rifle I hate the fact that on cold damp mornings that the stock seems very slippery. Other than this the stock is ridged and of high quality.

So is McMillan inletting for the new center-feed detachable magazine and hinged floorplate from Savage yet? If so I need to get an order in!

OK, does this lack of responses mean no or that ya'll have no clue?

Just read a post a few minutes ago about a member getting one for his wife's center feed Savage.

I found my answer elsewhere...

According to the information I found McMillan presently only offers stocks for the center feed blind magazine. The only exception being you can get an A5 setup for the detachable mag (DM) or hinged floor-plate (HFP). This really doesn't surprise me as the depth of the belly is now critical with these two magazine options, and they'd likely have to alter the stock design & molds accordingly.

Savage isn't helping things either with how they're trickling out one small change a year rather than doing it all in one shot. Two years ago it was the change to the short-action screw spacing to accommodate the new bottom metal on the DM and HFP bottom metal, this year it was the new center feed blind magazines, and next year (2008) it will be the implementation of the new bolt release system (which has been in the works for nearly 3 years now).

It's easy to see why few of the aftermarket stock makers have bothered to modify their designs yet for the new stuff as it's still evolving. Unfortunately though, Savage's process means there are going to be a couple years of bastard guns out there you won't be able to get stocks for....those with the old-style flag bolt release and center feed DM or HPF magazines.

I will say though that it's about d@mn time Savage got rid of that ugly flag-lever bolt release setup. For those who haven't seen the new system, here's a photo. The right rear of the action will no longer have a machined flat, and the bolt-release is a stylish button that's part of the front of the trigger guard. (Just ignore the fugly engraving and gold highlights...I've already chastised Ron Coburn and Brian Herrick for screwing the pooch on the 50th Anniversary Model 110's.)

So I could get The Sako 75 or Sako 75 Hunter design stock to replace the factory one in edge technology? Could I also get it in a swirl pattern??

No to the Edge with swirls, paint only.

So the lightest weight McSwirl stock I could get will weigh 32oz, unless I went with a Standard paint job Edge?

Yup.

That's about it.

RB

Rick

I was just looking around the Campfire Gear Shop and noticed that the HTG (M40A1) stocks are offered with Edge Technology for Remingtons and Savages but not Winchesters. This would be a great stock for the "heavy barreled lightweight" rifle I have in mind that will be based on a M70 action. Is it an option I can order?

Thanks, Gord

Rem Classic, 13.375 LOP, factory mag b/c, factory bdl floorplate, 1" decelerator, standard fill that weighs exactly 33 oz is going on my 700 SPS SS 257 Roy....

Rick, thanks for this thread and also for looking thru your stuff for me...

Marty

I'm in the process of buildng up several "lifetime" hunting rifles that once built, will hopefully last a lifetime without additional work except for rebarreling. Long-term durability in fairly hard hunting conditions and standing up to lots (tens of thousands of rounds) of shooting over a lifetime are high on my priority list. Durability wise, does a magnum or sniper fill buy me more durability in the long run?

Does a standard fill buy more durability than an Edge fill, again, in the long-term?

I won't say that weight is not a concern but it is a far removed concern next to durability and accuracy. A finished rifle in the 8.5-10 lb range is fine for my needs.

Everything will be professionally pillar bedded.

Thanks for any input.

Does Mcmillan make the tactical grip on their classic stocks instead of the checkering? This picture is what i am trying to get on a standard classic remington stock. I am trying to replace a LA CDL stock.



Canoli

Our classic stocks have checkering not texture. The only stock that has texture that has the most sporter look to it in our tactical stocks would be the HTG.

This has probably already been touched on, but. Can the "standard fill" be had for MAGNUM cal's(375 & 416 Ruger). And would there be any difference in the stock strength with this fill?
Rifle in question will either be a 375 or 416 Ruger Alaskan. Thanks

Those calibers must get a Mag Fill or Sniper fill.

I don't mean to offend by this comment... But... What makes a stock worth $500+? I see the B&C Fiberglass stocks at less than $200. ?? Never seen a McMillian in person as my hunting partners are cheap! : ) I guess my real question is why a McMillian and why are they so expensive?

I am looking to build a custom rifle and exploring stock options...

Rem Varmint pattern with gel-coat, SA700 BDL, 1" Decelerator, 13.25 LOP, Krieger Heavy Palma inlet, sniper fill. Weight is 44oz. Hadn't seen many stats on this pattern, so I figured I'd add it to the thread.

My old pre-64 .375 has a McMillan stock and seldom wears a scope. The custom Mod. 70 .338 I do most all of my hunting with wears a 21 oz. Bansner's. Unless one needs it for balance or to tame recoil I see no need to put a heavy stock on a hunting rifle you are carrying all day. I guess I would be looking at a Bansner's or Edge stock if I needed another synthetic.

I placed on order by phone on May 10th directly to McMillan for a new stock.

I can't wait for it to be shipped to my gunsmith for bedding.

It is a Ruger Classic a McSwirly (50% black/50% white) with stainless sling studs, standard 13.5 lop, and Pachmayr recoil pad.

This will be my first McMillan stock. Up to now I was using HS Precision stocks.

The stock is going on a newly re-barreled Ruger 77 MK/II that has a new 24" Hart stainless #3 barrel chambered in 6.5x55.

So their CZ Express stock for the CZ 550 Magnum action should be their heaviest? Is it a significant step up from the CZ Bell & Carlson synthetic stock? I have a 500 Jeffery I want to be able to take to Alaska when I go back in a few years, so will swap out the wooden stock for the trip, then swap back. With the 500 Jeffery, heavy is good ...

What is the closest McMillan Edge pattern to the B & C Alaskan stock?
This is for a Rem 700 LA.
I like the the thick grip style that the B & C has

I think I found what I was looking for....
It's the KS - Kevlar Special LA ADL

I agree with you Rick! I love my McM Edge on my .30-06 pre-64 Model 70 Fwt!

A big AMEN to that!

Has anyone put a McMillan Express stock on a Weatherby Mark V action. I have an older one in 270 Weatherby and would like a lighter non Monte-Carlo stock.

Thanks!