In my search fo a stainless steel rifle to hunt every thing from Elk to Antelope I was leaning toward a 7mm rem. mag. and while doing some reloading yesterday I can across the 280 Ackley improved. I'm going to run the numbers through some calulators today, but it looks like you get more engery and velocity with than the standard 280. While the 280 ia has less engery and velocity than the 7mag but also less recoil than the mag. Whats not to like about that? I like like the idea of more engery/velocity than the 280rem and less recoil than the 7rm. After spending 3 hours at the range yesterday with my 300 H&H less recoil is a good thing!

I did a search on Accurate Reloading and read most of the 131 post on the subject. I know some of them, Savage 99, hates the improved round and most of the guys who have a 280 improved love it. Soo... why get the 280 improved over a 7mm rm? If you had to do it over again would you build the 280ai or just buy a 7mag?

Also the way I under stand it you could have a standard 280 rem rechambered to 280 ai, right?

I think I read this some where, can't you still shoot factory ammo in it? Say like if you got out west and the airlines lost our handloads. Couldn't I just buy some 280rem loads and shoot them?

I also read some where that a company was selling 280ai brass? I'm not sure the guy who posted it listed the company name. If so I didn't write it down. I do recall him saying you had to send them a round fired in you gun and then they would match it from there. Anybody know the company name and the cost of the brass?

The 280AI is a kick-ass cartridge. It's got it all and remains friendly and them is good things.

You tread fairly close to 7mmRemmag performance and keep an extry poke in the belly. Neither earth shattering,but neither a step backwards either.

It would take some doing to find someone that loves the 7mmRemmag more than I. It is fabulous when fed properly and it has always rewarded me for those efforts. Soooo,I can't/won't cuss it,as it is too good across the board and has done me right too many times.

The 280AI shares those attributes,but does it with less powder and recoil and one could argue that it is the Perfect Seven.

I think it is a wickedly wonderful round,that is a Giant Killer and in typical 7mm fashion it just begs to be superbly accurate.

With a properly headspaced 280AI chamber,one can certainly utilize Factory 280 fodder to yield Improved hulls,with every yank of the trigger. There are folks that offer formed cases,as you mention,but I'd prefer to form my own brass in my own rifle,but that's me.

A pard punched his S/S 700 Mountain Rifle in 280,out to 280AI and tucked it in a black/grey swirled McMillan Mountain Rifle patterned stock of light fill and it is a damned fabulous rifle,that brings it all to the table.

Now to stir the pot,you can mimic that performance ala 7SAUM or eclipse it with a 7WSM. My S/S Model Seven based 7SAUM is certainly a slice of heaven and I haven't a bitch one in it's regard.

Hard not to like .284" projectiles,that are launched from hulls with those capacitiesy(7SAUM-7mmRemMag). Any of the lot in an accurate rifle would tickle me and would be a grand choice for most everything.

I'm sure none of that helped you,but I'm sweet on 7's in general and the 280AI is high on the list......................

"I'm sure none of that helped you"

Thanks Big Stick for adding more fuel to the fire, now if only someone would fan the flames. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Big Stick, what rate of twist would you recommend in the 280ai for 120gr to 160gr bullets with a 24" barrel?

My trouble is I have the 7mm Bug pretty thoroughly,so I can't tell someone with a straight face that "this one is great and this one sucks",because they is all good as a minimum.

In my mind,the merits of the 280AI are best extolled in a lightish-weight/handy utility rifle. Sorta an "all arounder".

I'm gonna build a lightweight 280AI upon a S/S SUCKS(likely a PacNor #1 contour,23" long) and nestle it within a McMillan Mountain Rifle pattern and do the alloy Talley's and 6x42mm thing.

A guy can't have too many Sevens and the 280AI is certainly a Good 'Un.............................

1-9" is a very forgiving 7mm twist rate...................

mark6.6x55
280 Ackley is one fine caliber. The only draw-back is fireforming. I build several a year and everyone likes them. A Sucks action with a light weight barrel make a fine all-around piece. 140 grain Ballistic Tips for deer sized critters and 160 Partitions or A-Frames and you are ready for most everything in North America and a whole mess of plains game. Reloader 22 seems to work well with most bullets, but there are several powders that will do the job. There is some feller here named "Dogzapper" who has fired a round or two with a 280 Ackley. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Charlie

Thanks Stick and Charlie, now we've got this fire going. Pull up a chair and help yourself to some marshmallows.

I've spent this morning reading all I can find on the .280AI and fireforming seems to be the only draw-back I've read. You got an idea about case life? If you fireformed 100 rounds, which sounds like range time to me <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />, and you could get 6 or 8 firings from each then thats 600 to 800 rounds. That'd last me a long time.

As to building this thing. I want to keep the total weight down to 8 pounds or a little less. I want a 24" barrel and fluted would be nice. I guess I'll use Talley rings, a Leupold 2.5-8x36 scope and a Bansner stock, painted by Rick.
What do you think as for as actions? I like Winchesters, but I know they are heavy. How about a Weatherby Vanguard action? I personal like it better than a Remington. How about the new MRC 99 action? Would the Vanguard make it easer to stay at or a little under 8 pounds?

Mark,
If you have access to past Varmint Hunter magazines, you may want to read up on the excellent 280AI articles by Dogzapper. I've never worked with one but being a 7mm fan I know I'm missing out on what is probably one of the finest of the "improved clan." I would seriously consider a C/M Remington 700 action, far better stock offerings from the various stockmakers(especially McMillan) If I were to build one today, it would be pretty close to Dogzappers specs: Rem 700, McMillan Classic and a 24" #3 or #2 SS bbl in a 10 twist. I would use Stick's choice of optics and mounts and have the action/recoil lug parkerized and then the entire barreled assy done up in matte black GunKote. A Shilen or RifleBasix trigger would round out the package. MtnHtr

Mark6.5x55
I would recommend a Remington 700 action. They are about the lightest action readily available. I wont use a Wby Vanguard because they have metric threads and its a lot of work to set up for metric then back for standard.
Charlie

OK, my two cents. I don't see the appeal of the 280 AI. I own a .280. It's my second. I've owned two 7 mm Rem Mags. Not a whole lot more in the Magnum - you are talking 25 yds. more Point Blank Range, and very small decreases in wind drift, and no discernable improvement in killing power.
I've killed all sorts of stuff from 25 - 500 yds. with both. And the 7X57. Any real differences I ever saw were in the quality of the bullets. There is the big difference.
Oh, I forgot recoil and blast. A noticable difference between the 7mm Mag and the .280. Not alot, but some. To me, the .280 is nicer to shoot and just a deadly. Yeah, I know all about paper performance. But after lots of big, dead critters, I haven't noticed a difference. Unless I change bullets. No case forming for me. Just extra work. E

Mark:

When you go from a standard 280 to a 7 Rmag, you gain about 150-175 fps with most bullet weights. The AI falls somewhere between the two. If 75-90 fps are worth the trouble to you, go for it!! Keep in mind that the resale value of a rifle in an improved cartridge is generally far less than a standard cartridge.

Oftentimes someone will "prove" a point about the performance superiority of their own AI cartridges with anecdotal evidence. ("My AI shoots faster than a mag. with less kick") The reality seems to be that AI's deliver about 2% more velocity than a std round in equal barrels with equal pressures.

You can get the same velocity from a 7 Rem, with less pressure, longer case life, good resale value, and equal recoil and noise all by going one notch faster in powder, and drop the pressure a tad.

Say for example that you have your heart set on a 160 NP @ 2950 from a 24" barrel. (great load BTW) here is data from Nosler #5 (presumably pretty similar pressures.

280 Rem 58.5/7828/2942 (26" barrel) Max load ((probably not going to hit 2950 in a 24" in a std 280))
280 AI 60.0/7828/2962 (24" barrel) Max load
7 RemM 59.5/RL-19/2973 (24" barrel) 2 gr. under max

Of course you can slice and dice loading data about any way you want to, but the newer manuals are pretty objective. It's easier to justify an AI by simply deciding that you "want one" than by any objective process.

JimF

Yup, I've fired a round or two of .280 Ackley. Even managed to somehow kill a few furry things with it, too.

Fabulous cartridge. Suggerst you might be further tempted by reading my scribblings in the January 2002 Issue of Varmint Hunter Magazine.

I usually shoot 120- and 140-grain Ballistic Tips. The 120s @ 3370 fps are flat shooting and knock over antelope and big mule deer like steel silhouettes. I killed one Alberta moose with the 120s (I was hunting whitetails) and he kit the ground so fast that they measured it as 7.6 on the Richter Scale in Edmonton. Very little meat damage with this bullet and it would leave the Ballistics-Bashers scratching their heads (if they ever quit whining about BTs long enough to actually try it).

The 140-grain Ballistic leaves the muzzle at 3170 fps and is lovely on elk and big mule deer. Kinda an all-around bullet.

The data in Nosler #5 is the best collection of .280 Ackley loads available. Don't pay any attention to the data in Nosler #4 (dunno what they were shooting, but it is weird data).

You can probably tell by now that I am into killing and not into armchair theoretical musings. (No tactical stuff, target knobs and useless bullshit things on my killing tools). The .280 Ackley is worth your effort.

Steve "Dogzapper" Timm

dogzapper
I to "LOVE" ballistic tips. Have used them since they came out
with complete satisfaction. I would argue that they are the most
accurate bullet made other than maybe sierra's. Their performance
on game is spectacular. It's hard to argue with accurate performance.
Raghorn

dogzapper, just curious about your thoughts on the two nosler loading manuals, can you go into a little more depth on your observations, thanks,ackleyfan

as long as we are looking for close to 3000 in a 160 lets not forget the 284!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> if you dont have the gun yet a 7mm-08 rechamber works well. 700 mountain in a 22". those make nice lightweights. or the TI in 7mm-08/284.... or a standard bdl w/24" tube. i like the 284 if you cant tell......
woofer

There's a new cartridge out that might fill your needs without fire-forming. The 7mm Remington SAUM is essentially the .280 AI in a short case. On average it maybe has a grain or two more case capacity, depending on brass used in the .280. I have been shooting one now for a while, a brand new SUCKS S/S with 24" barrel, and it is indeed a midget .280 AI.

The only factory I've tried is the 140 Ultra Core-Lokt, which gets just what's advertised, over 3150. It groups into well under an inch, and has knocked the snot out of 4 deer and a barbeqcue pig so far. Have just started handloading, but so far it appears this one will sit up and do tricks. Look up the data in the newest Nosler manual and see what I mean.

Great cartridge!!! Fireforming is no big deal. Fireform during barrel break-in and fouling shots for load development. I have a batch of cases that I am currently using that are going on 23 firings. Anneal every 5 firings or so, and they'll last a long time. I get 3150-3200 easily with a 140gr out of a 24" barrel, and 2875-2925 fps with 160's. Essentially a 7 Mag, using a little less powder. Both excellent cartridges, but the 280AI gets my vote. 1:9 twist is my preference.

ACKLEY

You can probably tell by now that I am into killing and not into armchair theoretical musings. (No tactical stuff, target knobs and useless bullshit things on my killing tools). The .280 Ackley is worth your effort.


I LOVE IT!!!!

"The data in Nosler #5 is the best collection of .280 Ackley loads available. Don't pay any attention to the data in Nosler #4 (dunno what they were shooting, but it is weird data)."

Thanks for the heads up dogzapper. I ordered the #5 Manual last night.

After giving it some thought, I'm still a Winchester guy at heart and if I'm going to built a rifle it mite as well be on a action I like. I did some looking around last night and I can pick a push feed Winchester for around $300 or a stainless classic for $525. I leaning toward the push feed to keep the cost down. I think I can build a 8 pound Winchester and still have a 24" barrel. I brought a Winchester classic lt sporter (24" barrel, Rimrock stock, Warne rings, 3.5-10x40 Leupold) to work with me today so I can get one of lab guys to weigh it. I don"t think its much over 8 pounds, we'll see. I know the Bansner stock is lighter than the Rimrock, 4 oz+/-, the Talley Light Weight One-Piece Aluminum Scope Mounts are lighter than the Warnes and the 2.5-8x36 Leupold is lighter than the 3.5-10x40. But again I'll get it weighed today and we'll see.

One the other hand being cheap a ba#$@%d I wouldn't pass up a smoking deal on one somebody was selling <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Even if it was a Sucks rifle. Wellllllll it'd have to be one hellva deal mind you <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I'm going a bit off topic here, but I'm going to disagree with the Nosler BT fans. I used to load them exclusively in my 280 until one absolutely came unglued on a rib of a fairly large Mule Deer. He was shot on the bald prairie at about 75 yds behind the shoulder. The entrance hole from the outside looked like something you could throw a softball through but when viewed from the inside of the rib cage you had to really look to find the hole some small fragment of that bullet had managed to get through and damage enough of the lung to bleed the thing to death (when butchering the carcass, my dad didn't believe that was the only shot I put into him and asked if I had actually scared him to death instead). I load them no more in any rifle I plan on taking big game with.

Another example I have is the Swift Scirocco bullet (150gr shot from a 280). I saw one of them after it had broken the shoulder of a moose and failed to penetrate the rib cage, it looked like a quarter. Luckily a follow up shot broke the spine and put the animal down.

So say what you want about the BT or the new bonded plastic tipped wonders but despite success with these particular bullet their failures speak louder to me. I personally wouldn't use BT's on anything larger than a jack rabbit.

Chuck

Your into killing things and not into "useless bullshit tactical stuff" ? Like maybe shooting slings, target style elevation knobs ? Too bad you never tried them at some extended ranges. They teach you that extra 100 fps. you work so hard for is exactly the "armchair theoretical musings" you are talking about. E

Hey Johnnie Mule Deer,

Clearly, you are right about the 7RSAUM being a .280 Ackley with a few grains left over. I suspect the new 7 is probably going to be one of the most practical of factory cartridges. Actually, I said all of that in my recent .280 Ackley article.

Personally, I tend to go for the .473" case head because of the ease of getting SUCK long-actions at gun shows. Also, the .473 actions can be barreled for a variety of cartridges. The only problem, as I see it, with the RSAUM cartridges is the specialized bolt face and fat magazine box.

Having said that, if a guy wanted the performance of the .280 Ackley, and didn't want to go through the rechambering or custom building process, it would be a simple matter to simply buy a factory-built 7RSAUM. Geez, that wouldn't be any fun.

By the way, I wouldn't even think of Improving the 7RSAUM. The increase in capacity would take away the magic.

Best, Steve

E

I must have touched a nerve. Sorry.

Every time I share a hunt with the tactical guys, they are fixated of dicking with their scopes. While these folks are messing with their not-too-practical rigs, the rest of us are "holding" and killing.

I'm talking prairie dogs here. One is 200 yards, the next is 30 feet and the next is 300 yards. The "clickers" go mad and spend half of their time doing an exercise that is wasted on us who have shot more than a few dogs.

When it comes to big game, I try my very best not to have a long range situation. For example, last year I shot a mighty-fair mulie in Montana. I could have shot him at 500, but that would have been only shooting. I did an open-field stalk and eventually (like an hour later) hunted him down and shot out both carotid arteries at somehing under 100 yards. The stalk was glorious and it was hunting at its best.

But then.........Last year, I couldn't get even close to a nice Montana antelope I liked. Had to shoot him in the middle of the chest at 429 yards. In bipod, I held for elevation and wind and executed him. And I felt sick about it, because my 50 years (and something close to 500 game animals, here in the US, in Canada and in Africa) of experience hadn't taught me enough to get within comfortable range of the wiley 'ol antelope. It was a clean kill, but I was nothing more than a shooter. And I hate that.

There is great honor in being a hunter because it is part of a sacred game. The shooter simply drops bullets into an unfortunate, unwitting animal and there is no honor in that. My opinion only.

Sure, I use a sling. Actually, it's a non-slip rubber Quaker Boy carrying strap. I also have a Harris L-S bipod attached to the rifle and carry a pair of crossed sticks in my pack. I will use a boulder, fence post or any other solid object to help me make a humane kill. It is a hunter's duty to get as close as possible and have a rock-solid hold when taking the critter's life.

The equipment and cartridges I use are those that I have found practical for my uses. Other equally-experienced hunters may have evolved other choices -- and I totally respect that. Having said that, experienced hunters can share experiences and learn from each other. That's why we are all here at the 24HourCampfire.

Steve

I was facing the same decission not long ago when I was planning my first custom rifle.

I decided on the following choices according to which size 700 action I was able to get.

Long 06 size action would be a .280 AI
Magnum action would be a 7 RM
Short 308 size action would have been a .284 Win.

My thinking was, those choices would get the most from a .284 bullet in each respective action. Any of the three cartridges would fit my needs.

As things worked out Sheister made me a good deal on a Rem BDL in 300 Win Mag and I ended up with the 7 RM.

I can't say enough good things about Steve's sieres of articles on the decission processes involved with ordering a custom rifle. He and the gang here served as my guide during the project. Some of you were aware that you were assisting me and others were not, but you were all helpful just the same. I am very happy with the way the rifle finished out. The final piece of the project, a Leupold 6.5 X 20 VX III was delivered last week.

Some good points made here from different perspectives of course. I thought long and hard about slapping some tactical or target turrets on my long range coyote bomber(243AI) but I'm not going to do it. I'm sure the turrets would come into use some of the time but most of the time ole wiley is on the move either coming or going and he gives you about 5-10 secs to shoot him. This does not mean the turrets don't have their place, I just don't feel they fit my hunting style(coyote hunting). However I would slap target turrets on a tactical or target rifle if I build one in the future, they are a definite asset in certain shooting situations. Heck, I'm just now purchasing my first laser rangefinder, the coveted Leica LRF 1200!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

As for the Ackley thing, they always draw their detractors as well as their fans. Some of the best muley hunters I know of use this round and not just for muleys. If you have a L/A sucks rifle w a 473 boltface then the 280AI is an excellent choice. MtnHtr

Mark65x55,
I have shot the Kmart flashing blue light special red box Federal 280 ammo out of my 280 AI and have had very good results with it. I had no problems getting MOA at 100 yards with the stuff.
I have always considered fireforming cases as practice and most would agree that a little extra trigger time never hurt anyone. I usually shoot the gong at 200 off hand .
I think it goes without saying that the more practice you get in the more effective your going to be.
As far as the 280 AI vs the 7mm mag thing , I tend to think about it like this . It takes a 7mag on average about 5 grains more of powder just to equal what a 280 AI can do. With 150g bullets or less. Why burn extra powder for nothing? The only edge a 7mag might be able to give you , would be with heavy bullets.
There is a company called Grayback wildcats that makes all kinds of Ackley improved ammo.The thing to do here , if you go that route is to make sure that it will fit in your chamber before you buy alot of it .
Over the years I have probley shot 25 plus deer with the 140g ballistic tip. From 20 feet to 475 yrds. When I started usuing them they were true bombs . These days I think that they are tuffer, and ,that they are the most accurate and flat shoot ing bullet going for the 280 AI. For deer I dont think you can beat it.

dogzapper:

"Every time I share a hunt with the tactical guys, they are fixated of dicking with their scopes. While these folks are messing with their not-too-practical rigs, the rest of us are "holding" and killing. "

I agree, I think you could add rifle slings and binos to your list of things not to "dick" with .If the rifle is hanging on your shoulder and you only have 10 seconds
You might as well wave byby to Mr . Whitetail . Same thing with Binos.
I like a good pair of binos as much as the next guy but when a nice buck steps out .
The thing to have in your hands is your rifle.
dave

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Dogzapper wrote...



Well, I may be one of the only guys here who didn't know who you are, but reading the quote above, I'm thinking your alright! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Sorry there's no varmints to hunt in Sitka, maybe I'll start shooting crows. Only problem there, is avoiding the ravens! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hey, Stevie DZ--

I am totally surprised you wouldn't AI the 7mm SAUM. Heck, there's another 10 degrees of shoulder to blow out!

You're right about the .473 SUCKS actions of course. To tell the truth, I've seeb selling some of mine off, and buying wooden-stocked rifles with single-shot and lever actions in radical cartridges like .30-40 Krag and .300 Savage (now there's another one that would be hard to AI!). I am getting into "target knobs," however they're on tang sights.

Major fun shooting PD's with a .30-40 out to 500 yards with a tang-sighted High Wall. Don't laugh! THat combo was high-tech back in 1892....

JMD

Dave 7mm, I will soundly disagree with your binos, sling response. This may have something to do with the conditions you hunt in but I'm still going to disagree nonetheless. First off my binos hang off my neck and I don't have them glued to my eyes while walking, socondly, you can't shoot what you don't find. My binos are one of the most valuable items I take into the field and I use them extensively while sitting on my tail. As for the sling, as someone who practices extensively off hand, you must know the benefit a hasty sling provides while trying to shoot further than you are comfortable shooting off hand. I agree that a rifle should be in your hands at all opportune times but in my opinion a slings primary function is not a carry strap, although it does come in handy when negotiating some harry stuff on the side of a mountain chasing sheep. To be honest, I'm quite shocked at your comments regarding binoculars.

Chuck

Steve,
I don't shoot any AI chamberings and I'm somewhat preoccupied with target knobs and laser rangefinders. I would agree with E completely regarding that last little bit of performance from whatever freakish cartridge is by and large an advantage only to those fond of "armchair theoretical musings". If you are ever in the Virginia Beach, Virginia area give me a ring. We have a 1200 yard unknown distance range available and we can compare "Useless tactical bullshit stuff" to holding off for wind and elevation. I have an open mind and I'm always looking for the better mousetrap...

Regards, Matt.

Matt
In dogzappers example he was talking about shooting out to 300 yards. I dont think BDCs are necessary or even usefull untill you start getting out past 500 yards. We are talking apples and oranges here . And as you know I own plenty of both types of rifles .

Big stick says ,
"In my mind,the merits of the 280AI are best extolled in a lightish-weight/handy utility rifle. Sorta an "all arounder". "
At this the 280 AI IMHO is one of the best all arounders going. Would a 270 or a 06 work ? Sure. So would a host of others. But the 280 AI shines as a testament Parkers O. Ackleys genius.
Excellant accuracy , good case life and great case efficiency. And an excuse to go the the range . What more could you ask for ?

ChuckNelson
Thats one of the great things about this board. We can agree to dissagree.
In Alberta doing the 100 % ambush thing . Get those 8x56s out and look into every nook and cranny.Might as well ,you have all day to do it. But if your mobile . I still say the best thing to have in your hands ,at all times ,is your rifle.

Mule Deer
I have been asking Big Stick about the 7mm SAUM . And reading some on it.
Sounds very interesting . But im not sure that improving it would would gain much of anything. To be honest I was thinking more of necking it down to a 270.
dave

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Re: Theoretical musings.........

It's interesting how fans of a particular cartridge manage to find a way to claim that (said cartridge) outperforms other stuff. Often, the facts seem to indicate otherwise. In comparing the 280 AI to the 7 RM some folks seem to think that the AI is equal or better than the 7 mag. In fact, the practical advantage lies with the larger case. Personally I don't see the need for any more velocity than the std. 280 case but if somebody wants more, that's great and there are factory offerings to get one to that point.

As indicated in the oft-quoted Nosler #5.......take the highest velocity available with any bullet weight in the AI, and you will find that you can match that velocity in the 7 mag with an equal or even lower charge of a slightly faster powder.

In the clear light of day (and pressure limits) you can make the case that the 7 Mag will equal the performance of the 280 AI and do so at lower pressures, with SIMILAR or maybe even LESS recoil. The 7 mag when used with the slower powders and max loads clearly outperforms the 280 AI (although with higher recoil)

Examples:

280 AI Max load..........................7 Rem Mag equiv.

140/RL 22/63/3196......................140/4350/62/~~3180 equal recoil @ 3 gr. under max
160/7828/60/2963.......................160/RL 22/61/2963 equal recoil @ 2gr. under max.

There is certainly nothing wrong with the performance of the 280 AI and if a person has a burning desire to have one, that's cool. They should just be aware that they are NOT getting something for nothing, and there are practical reasons to avoid wildcats when you can achieve exactly the same goal with a factory round.

JimF

I agree with Mr Timm on the silliness of target knobs on hunting rifles. For instance, you couldn't give me one for a backpack, steep country rifle. Anyone who has spent a bit of time slipping and sliding around on mossy, rock-covered hillsides knows why. A target knob is just something superflous to get bashed when you fall down. I work too hard for my vacation time and crawlng up a mountain to have a bashed target knob put an end to my hunt. And I do get to do this on a regular basis so have some background on which to base this decision. I go so far as to use Leupold QR bases when crawling up a steep sheep or goat mountain and have the scope deep in my pack. When I get to the top the scope goes back on. And if I encounter a bear on the way up, the lack of a scope won't hinder my shooting when the target is only a few feet away.

And for an open-country rifle, I'll stick with my Vari-X III's and 4a reticles. With the abrupt change from thick to thin reticle, and the ability to change scope power and thus reticle subtension, you can use the top of the bottom post for a long-range aiming point.

Also, in my opinion shooting at a big game animal becomes target shooting and not hunting somewhere not much past 300 yards. If you know what the wind is doing at the animal, or whether that animal is going to take a step forward the instant you pull the trigger, you're a better man than me. And no rangefinder in the world will help you with that.

But what do I know? I actually waste my Pac-Nor barrels and Bansner stocks on M70 controlled feed actions! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

It never fails to amaze me the number of folks who have no use for a shooting sling. Try a 30% smaller group. More when you are out of breath. Ever try to hit a running animal when you are out of breath? I've done it more than once. The shooting sling really helps.
If you carry a rifle slung, carry it African style. Upside down, muzzle down. It's very fast, and gets the rifle out of the way so I can glass on my feet. I like to look through cover with my bino and see them first.
Just because your scope has a target elevation knob, does not mean you need touch it. I like mine for longer shots, or more precise shorter shots. Like shooting through a hole in cover.
I've spent alot of time on loose, steep rock, like our Sonoran Desert Sheep Ranges, and slick, steep stuff as well. I haven't knocked one off yet. I understand Big Stick hasn't either. Windage knobs are a pain. But the elevation knob I find very useful. Much more so than a variable. E

You'd get a lot of snow into your barrel and action if you carried a rifle around here with the barrel down. I also cannot comprehend how pulling down on a sling doesn't effect the bullet impact on target. Do you sight in at the range also into the sling? If so, I suppose, everything should remain the same as long as the downward pressure on the sling was the same each time. So, is that what you do?

RickF:

I'm interested in your scope set up. I assume? that when you slap the scope on the base(s) that it returns to a predictable zero?? I'm with you on long range stuff. Anything over 300 yds has to get a long hard look (and think).

I'd seriously consider putting some iron sights on my 338-08 and a scope in a QR mount. I'm considering a makeover for this rifle anyhow since the teflon finish is not well done and is flaking off, and I can't stand the MPI stock that it currently sits in.

JimF

"But what do I know? I actually waste my Pac-Nor barrels and Bansner stocks on M70 controlled feed actions!"

That makes me want to cry, in a manly sort of way. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Hi Jim. I first tried out the Leupold QR mount setup on a M70 classic stainless 300Wby in a Brown stock. I'm as much of an accuracy nut as anyone on this board, but was interested in having a backup scope ready to go in a second set of rings. When I first mounted the QR's, I tried a 3-shot group with the rifles accuracy load with 180 Hornady's. The rifle shot it's usual group of around 7/8". I then removed the scope, put it back on and fired a shot. Did that 4 more times. When I was done I had an 8-shot group (the original 3 plus 5 more with the scope removed for each shot that still measured around 7/8". Each successive shot was inside the first 3. Since then I've also put the same setup on my little 284 that we've discussed in the past with the same result. On anything short of a target rifle you won't see a perceptible shift in zero when removing and replacing the scope., maybe not then. Believe me, if I didn't trust them the scope wouldn't be in my pack (sometimes) when the next shot may be at a Stone's sheep I've worked my ass off for! They are the real deal, and in my experience as tough as they come.

One thing to consider is that the QR bases are higher than some, so be sure that you will be able to see the open sights over the bases. On most hunts a zeroed M8-6x36 or similar in a second set of mounts makes a ton of sense.

I'm a bit surprised also that more guys don't use the top of the bottom post trick for a long range aiming point. With that 300Wby and 200 partitions, for example. +2 1/2" at 100, down 3" or so at 300 yards, the top of the bottom post at 10X for 400 yards, and the top of the bottom post at 6X for 500 yards. Why was it we couldn't hunt without target knobs again?? All it takes is a bit of shooting and a calculator to see which scope power to use at distances beyond point blank range.

Rick:

Great info, thanks. I have little hash marks on the power ring of my 2X7'S @ about 5.5 power. That's where the gap between the tip of the duplex and the horizontal wire subtends 18" (I thought everybody did this)

Although I have not owned a 300 Wby for a long time, I still remember "the load" 82 gr. old 4831, Fed 215, 180 Hornady or Rem Core Lokt. That would hit 1" for five shots for as long as I could stand to shoot it.

Jim

Rick F, Your use of the Lupe QR mirrors your own. I wouldnt be without them. Also your use of the top of the bottom post makes for long range shooting. My farthest shot
at a sleeping elk was done as you describe. I had the scope on 6x and put the top of the post on the elks back. He never woke up. A great hunting tool that I
picked up and starting practicing with on PDs.

JimF- Celt advertises some base/rings on his site that are supposed to return to zero every time. They're about $200 though. Just another thought.

I run around here all the time in the snow with my rifles. I've never had a problem with snow in the barrel, thanks to duct tape, or in the action. You grab the rifle by the forend, drop your shoulder and roll the rifle up right as it come on target. It hangs much out of the way when carried upside down as well.
If the rifle has a free floated barrel, and a fairly stiff forend, it should not shift impact when a shooting sling is used. I do have one that does. It has a weak, flexable forend, but all of the rest of them don't. It takes me no longer to use a sling than to not use one. That's because I use the CW sling system. E

E, thanks for the explain. I carry my rifles on my left shoulder, (I'm right handed.) with the barrel up and the gun on the front of my body rather than on my back. That way, I can constantly insure, by feel, that the safety is on, the gun floorplate pressed easily in the palm of my left hand and when I need to duck under something, and, I can easily see the barrel and avoid obstructions or snow. Mounting the rifle then just means moving the butt up to my right arm. I can, at that point, either chose to use the sling for some support or let it dangle. Carrying this way, allows me to keep my left hand always on my gun. So, if I lose my balance or something, I can control where the gun goes as I slip. A gun carried across the back on one's shoulder is really out of control if you slip or stumble. As I always have said, "Break my leg but don't bang my gun!"

E - That's how I was taught to sling a rifle, it is a very quick one motion movement to shoulder the rifle from that carry position. It does not take long to wrap up a hasty sling either. I shot a running turkey a few years ago from that carry position. I sholdered the rifle and droped into a kneeling position all in one motion. I fired the shot before my partner could finish saying "there he is".

I've learned to let my rifles go, and NOT break a leg. Some of the places I go, I would be in a life threatening situation with a broken leg. One of the reasons I like Leupolds, and tough mounts.
I also duct tape my floorplates for added insurance - or build the rifle w/o them.
I don't worry about safetys because I never depend on them. I, nowadays, always carry my rifle's muzzle taped.
The upside down, muzzle down position is just much smoother for me than the muzzle up position. Either works much better than the "standard " over the shoulder carry. E

Rolly,

A tight sling may or may not affect POI at your hunting distances. The only way to know is to test it. I've experimented with a few of my rifles, using either military type two-piece slings or Brownell's Latigo slings (my favorite) and found it to work either way:

My pre-war Model 70 shoots significantly lower at 100 yds. with a tight sling. I suspect the forend screw has something to do with that.

My Mark X .30-06 (bedded with a little pressure at the forend tip) shows no change at 100 yds. Haven't tried it farther.

My Ruger 77 Mk II .280 and Beretta Mato .338 Win. Mag. (both free-floated) show no significant change at 200 yds.

I shot a wild pig with the .280 three days ago using a tight sling. However, it was only 30 yds. away; I'd slung up because I expected to see a different pig on the other side of the canyon, not this one down in the bottom. Kept seeing different pigs pop out different places for about half an hour, I still had sling marks above my bicep when I took off my shirt 3 hours later!

John

I have a custom 280AI for my Encore. Shoots nickles. You shouldn't have any problem with Elk at reasonable range. If you put a 160gr. where it needs to go. ON