I am really considering re-barreling my Savage 110 LA in this cartridge but first I would like your opinion/recommendation.

I've thought a lot about going to the BJAI and even talked with Bob Jordan about it. He sent me his load info.

All said, going 6.5-284 seems a whole lot easier.

Please do tell and is it OK with Bob if you share the information he gave you?

If you have a long action rifle, why not keep it simple and go 6.5-06?

Jeff

Tempting but less efficient. I just love the 6.5 family and would not turn down any of them. I guess I've just taken a fancy to the 6.5x55 case. I too have considered the 6.5-284 as su35. It seems to be a toss up to an extent. The 260 is also a good round but can't get the speeds of the 6.5x55, 6.5-284, or 6.5-06. Decisions...decisions...decisions...

It's a tough choice as I like them all.

I replied to your PM.

I have a 256 Newton, the best U.S. 6.5mm design, so I understand 6.5mm addiction.

The 260 and 6.5x55 have 2 grains difference in case capacity, so don't slight the 260 or give the 6.5x55 more credit then it has earned.

Jeff

Not to mention that the 260 Rem fits in a short action, has a standard sized rim diameter, and is not limited to the SAAMI max pressure of 51,000psi.

Allow me to see if I understand correctly about the 6.5x55. I can use my Savage 270 bolt with the 6.5x55 rim. I realize there is a very small difference but that difference will not cause me any problems...right?

Right!

It is only .007" bigger and will work fine in your Savage boltface.

The other things I said about the 260, although true, don't apply in the application you're planning.

You have a long action rifle and you can load the 6.5 hotter than SAAMI because of the strong action.

Really no need to go hotter with the 6.5x55 but many folks have.

nsaqam,

Do you have any estimate what the top velocity a 6.5x55 can push a 140gr projectile from a strong action? I wish to find that velocity and back off to a good accuracy but higher that factory load speed. I realized the factory loads are loaded for the Swedish Mauser, a less strong action.

Jeff

i was getting around 2850 with my 6.5x55 arch. it was bult on a 700 action with a 22inch barrle.

By far the highest 140 grain velocity I can find in my many reloading manuals is 2790 fps in Nosler #6.
Nosler 6 states that all their loads for the 6.5x55 are for strong, modern actions. It also says that they used a 23" barrel.
They list 6 different powders with 140 grain velocity over 2700 fps.

I'm a 6.5 fan so I've been following this thread. I had contemplated doing a 6.5BJAI. Couldn't find enough certain benefit to justify it to myself. (That is not to imply you shouldn't do it.) I'm getting better than 2700 with 140s out of my CZ 550 6.5x55 without pushing it. It has been predictably wickedly effective on deer and accuracy is excellent. I've found that my rifle does not like to have the velocities pushed too hard. Accuracy suffers. Given the ranges at which we get the great majority of our shots here on hardwood slopes in the mountains the 6.5SE is more than adequate. If you do the BJAI I'd love to hear about it. I understand it ranks well in performance improvement among the AI catrtidges but don't personally know anyone who is shooting one.

OldRooster,

I too am aware of the velocity vs accuracy but I did find out that because of the case capacity buffer of the 6.5x55BJAI the velocity can be pushed a little higher without affecting the accuracy. At least that is what I've read. The reason I asked nsaqam about velocities was it sounds like he is very knowledgeable concerning this issue. It will be a little while before I attempt this project but I will PM you with the results. Thanks.

Jeff

Several of the members on here have a wealth of experience with 6.5s. I enjoy keeping up with their posts.

I just found this post and I too love the 6.5x55 B.J.A.I. after reading thread after thread and compairing velocity, case capicity and of course efficency I chose this chambering. With the blown out case there is a 13.7% gain in velocity over the standard 6.5x55 velocity, I was able to chrony 2800fps from a 24", 1-9 twist barrel while loading a 123grn Match king and 100yard groups printed nicely at 0.149" on centers. These loads are by no means pushing the pressure limits and faster speeds could be obtained, however accuracy was the result I loaded for.I have shot this round quite a bit and even when loaded with the lighter 85grn varminters for fire forming the groups were sub-half moa! Check the compairson between a 6.5x284 and the 6.5x55 B.J.A.I. you'll be surprised! every time I shoot this round I am impresed, I have kept quite a large file on load development too.

Please don't take this as a challenge to what you've posted, but according to Mule Deer's case capacity to velocity increase rule of thumb, the ROT that says a 4% increase in capacity yields a 1% increase in velocity, a 13.7% increase in velocity would require a 54.8% increase in case capacity.

Is that possible with a 6.5x55 parent case?

According to my case capacity table, the 6.5x55 has a capacity of 56 grains, while the 6.5-284 has a capacity of 66 grains. That 10 grain increase is equal to 17.86% of the 6.5x55's capacity, which, under MD's ROT, should yield a velocity increase of 4.47%. For example, if the 6.5x55 could drive a bullet at 2800 fps, a 284 should push the same bullet out the muzzle at 2925 fps.

Jeff

It may be that large of an increase if you're going from <51,000 psi loads to say >61,000 psi loads.

Of course if that's the case then it really isn't an apples to apples type of deal.

Interesting.... I love calculations.

I think that I read in Bob Jourdan's writings somewhere that there was a 13.7% increase in propellant capacity when comparing the 6.5x55 and the 6.5x55BJAI but I'm not sure. I may have read it wrong. I do know that it ranked 4th or 5th in cases that had the most propellant capacity gain. I also read somewhere that the 6.5x55BJAI was nipping at the door of the 6.5-284 speeds. IDK. The internet is full of information; some is fact and some is fiction. I know that I'm still interested in the 6.5x55BJAI. I may not be able to afford it now and I may have to simply order a Pac-Nor, Shilen,or McGowan barrel in the standard Swede 6.5x55, which is a pretty bad boy itself. Thanks gentlemen.


Hey Bob,

What would it take to get a copy of your load development records?

Jeff

I can believe a 13.7% increase in CAPACITY.

I knew the 6.5X55 Improved vs 6.5-284 would spark some interesting debate, so to settle the velocity issue here is a link to the origional post about Ackley cartridge ranking.

http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=5813

Along with other internet forum posts I have read several times where comparisons for similarity between the 6.5X55 B.J.A.I. and 6.5-285 are refrenced.

Jeff, send me a pm for load data it will be a fat envelope.

The FACTORY 6.5x55 is loaded to a maximum average SAAMI pressure of 51,000psi in deference to the M96 rifle it is often chambered in.

At SAAMI pressure 2550fps is about the best you can hope for.

Now if we take the same standard 6.5x55 and load it for a strong, modern action up to say 61,000psi like Nosler did for Nosler #6 then the standard size 6.5x55 gets to 2800fps.

If, like your linked thread says, the 6.5x55AI gets up to 2900fps then it is not loaded to SAAMI pressures but instead to Nosler #6 type pressures.

The velocity increase, WHEN LOADED TO SIMILAR PRESSURE, is nothing like 13.7%.

I realize that PO Ackley didn't do the 6.5x55, but many, if not most, of the loads listed in Ackley's reloading manual for his "improved" cartridges have been tested in pressure barrels and have been found to be significantly over pressure.

There is no magic case shape and increased capacity, while the only way to get higher velocity, has much smaller returns in velocity than the increase in charge weight.

The velocity data in the link you've provided obviously isn't an "apples to apples" comparison, pressure wise. The standard 6.5x55 velocity of 2500 fps with a 140 grain bullet is obviously not loaded to the same pressure levels as the 6.5x55BJAI at 2900 fps. Most maximum recommended loading data is set for the most common rifle with the lowest strength that is chambered for a particular cartridge. In the case of the 6.5x55, that rifle is probably the single locking lug Norwegian Krag.

I have loaded for the 6.5x55 for over 25 years and can get 2800 fps with a 140 grain BT from a 22" barrel at safe pressures. While it is not a load that I would use in the Krag, I'm confident that it is safe in my Remington 700s, Ruger #1 RSI, Surplus Mausers, and Winchester/USRA 70.

The velocity claims cited in the link you provided are typical P.O. Ackley type claims that don't include pressure data and a recitation of the non-scientific mantra of "pressure doesn't matter, the effects of pressure matter". Pressure does matter and although the minimal case taper and sharper shoulder of the AI case design does have a positive impact on brass flow, if you produce enough pressure you will get brass flow and if you do is repeatedly, you will eventual get case separation.

Although I don't know what the case capacity of the 6.5x55BJAI is, it can't be greater than the 6.5-284, since both cases have the same OAL and the 284 case has a larger diameter. Given that assumption, I'd expect the 6.5x55AI to show about a 100 to 150 fps advantage over the standard 6.5x55 if all other variable factors are equal.

Jeff

260RemGuy, I think we said exactly the same thing here.

I think BobtheNailer will now get the distinction.

We did.

I started writing my post before you'd written your post, then I had to take my Son to school and hit the store for the fixin's for southwestern chicken and green pepper soup. Early dinner today, UNO hockey playoffs start tonight!

Jeff

You guys are too much! Thanks.

Question ... I have a 1896 Swedish carbine mauser with good 'ol Carl's name stamped on it. What are the higher loads that I can start with and build up to (maybe)?

Jeff

I recommend that you go to www.hodgdon.com and use their "tested" load data.

IMO, the 1894/1896/1938 small-ring Swedish built Mausers are the best pre-1898 style military actions to build on. Their faults are that they don't have the larger gas shield on the bolt shroud and they don't have a 3rd/auxillary locking lug.

The gas shield is easy to address, as both Brownell's and MidwayUSA sell a commercial style bolt shroud with a larger gas shield. The 3rd/auxillary locking lug is really a non-issue, for me, since I have NEVER seen a Mauser shear 1 locking lug, let alone 2 locking lugs.

The Swedish Mausers have long throats, so mine do better with longer/heavier bullets in the 140 to 160 grain range. Mine are SN 1067xx, 1971xx, 4631xx, and 6515xx. My sporterized Norwegian Krag is SN 921xx. I think that all 5 of these rifles are safe to shoot using the Hodgdon data, with Sweds at or above the recommend maximums, and the Krag at the starting to mid-point recommended loads.

Jeff

I would agree with Hodgdons.

Nosler 6 specifically states that the loads listed are for strong, modern rifles.

That being said the Swedes can probably handle those higher pressure loads all day but with the way that the 6.5's kill the regular SAAMI spec loads will work just fine and the rifle will be much happier.

On the Mauser, I'd err caution for the fine '94-96 just because, as it lacks the 'insurance' features of other designs.

That said, Perhaps PO did not want to try messing w/something that was not broken

If I wanted 6.5/284 performance, a 55AI is not a bad way to go, and Lapua brass would be my platform to start.

To Jeff's point on shearing off a lug, I personally had a striker slam rearward after bottoming out hard enough to crack ALL the threads on the bolt holding it in. I was lucky that striker did not exit the back of my head.

Hence my caution. I was using reformed 270 and 25-06 Hornady brass back then 15 years or more ago, and they were not reamed/turned. OD was .310, spec is .297 max, so I was 'crimping' my loads unknowningly to me, until I had Catastrophic Case failure.

It shook me up so bad I sold all mine. That was one of 3, so it got a new bolt, and re-headspaced before I sold it.

I would personally pick a 98 action, if not a Borden.

A Sako Finnlight, the newer ones w/24" or so bbl would be the cat's meow I think, set in a Mickey Stock.

Enjoy whatever you build, never had a bad 6.5mm.

You're just a WUSSY when it come to high pressure in boardline actions!

;-)

Jeff

Ouch 65BR! Good to know you're still with us.

I'm getting a lot of pm request for Bob Jourdan's loads he sent me some years back. I talked with Bob on the phone and you could not find a nicer more helpful gentleman.

These are Bob's loads, they worked for his rifle.
Your rifle may be different.

6.5x55 BJ Ackley Improved 40 Degree

M98 Custom Mauser, 27" Barrel (see notes)
Sako AV, 24" Barrel (see notes)
by Bob jourdan, 1997 update

120 gr.
IMR4895 45.0 3,111 47.0 3,214 27" Near Max.
IMR4064 44.0 3,034
AA2700..48.0 3,042 51.0 3,225
AA4350..49.0 3,085 51.0 3,195 Max.
H414....51.0 3,143 54.0 3,326 Max most accurate
H4831...54.0 3,090 57.0 3,246 Compressed
IMR 7828 55.0 3,153

I'll get the 129 and 140 data later I've got to pick up a Sako.

...

Go ahead and list the data. I'll go pick up that Sako for ya. lol.

I will tell you what gives alot of extra speed in the Swede, use a longer bbl than std. sporter. My 96 w/29.1 gave a marked increase in speed. Not that I wanted to tote it, my 24" sporterized got right at 100 fps more than my 21" gun.

Figure 25-26" if you want to get top performance in that round, AI or not. More is better if speed is a requirement, me, I never needed the extra speed and prefer the handling of a 22-23" bbl which I think is perfect.

Longarch, Yes I felt very fortunate to survive that boo boo and realized to pay attention to the little bitty details, and to stop reforming brass. Now there is an abundance of Swede brass in the USA to be had and that is great.

Jeff, I do say the workmanship on the Swedes is great, and if anything the steel is a tad soft, a good thing, it can give w/o being brittle and blow like a P-17 Enfield, or some of those models.

260Remguy, nsaqam, I have no doubts about more velocity equals more pressure. The link was wrote by Bob Jourdan in 2003 and is one of many articles wrote about the 6.5X55 Improved case, others are PS magazine May 2002 which compairs the 6.5X55 Vais to the 6.5-284 claiming them to be "ballistic twins" and again in PS magazine Aug. '92 another Bob Jourdan write up compairing the two cartridges. Dr E.L. Arch also did extensive testing of the cartridge with excellent results, yes.. twist rates, powder, barrel length and bullets used will all effect the results as we all know however the 6.5X55 B.J.A.I. is no underdog by anymeans. The benifits are proven with a Improved cartridge and loads don't need to be at the max to obtain supurb accuracy. I built my 6.5 on a Swede M96 military action that was sportorized and have had no issues with pressure signs. Accuracy was excellent even during fire forming with 85grn bullets.

I was just funnin' ya! Didn't you see the ";-)"?

I'm known as "Mr. Conservative" among my circle of reloading friends.

Jeff

A special thanks to nsaqam for working with me on some brass and to SU35 and Bobthenailer for the literature. To the rest, thanks for helping me make the best decision for me with all your comments.

I know Jeff, but I do take the safety issue seriously, as the POTENTIAL for disaster is not immune to any action etc. but all the right conditions happened, or WRONG for me, and it almost got me killed or seriously hurt.

That said, I know I am the exception when it comes to Swede mausers and it was the handloading oversight that was the blame.

I do think the AI case is supposed to be better supported in chamber and have less backthrust so it's said, esp. when concerning TC Contenders where backthrust can be an issue in certain rounds w/certain head size. SO it is that pressure signs may develop differently or some not at all, I don't know, but I do like the AI Swede for the purposes most use it. In a good rifle it should be HIGHLY capable.

Just look at what the STANDARD Swede did at 1,000 yds.

Factory rifle none the less

I have to admit I took a liking to the Tikka M595 Continental. It's a handsome and well-made rifle with a slick action. Accuracy was very good, as seems to be a trait of Tikka rifles. This can be seen in the fact the 1999 British Long-Range Benchrest Championship was won by a Tikka Continental in 6.5x55. Group size was an almost unbelievable 10 rounds into 4.4 inches at 1,000 yards. Anyone looking for an accurate out-of-the-box varmint rifle would do well to consider a Tikka.

pg 3 http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_2_49/ai_95680073/pg_3/?tag=content;col1

I had a 6.5 x 55 AI installed on my F-class rig for windy 600 yards and 1,00 yard competitions. 28" Brux, on a Stiller Predator short action cut with my PTG reamer, the rig is a switch barrel. Jim Kobe did the barrel work, The work was done early January and has been a great rifle to shoot and has proven to be very competitive.

Yes the SA Stiller will just barely eject loaded rounds although as an F-class gun this is a rare event. The bolt face did not have to be altered for lapua brass.

I get 3,050 fps 139 Scenars, H4831sc, and Wolf Large Rifle Magnum primers, with 0.5 MOA 5 shot groups measured on a electronic target at 300 meters. Finding great loads with this gun took about 3 hours at the range. The fireforming rounds were also very competitive, 48 g H4831SC with the same combo listed above.

In short I like the round and gun combo.

You might add that it has 5% less powder capacity than the 6.5x55 and that it is rather difficult to stuff a 142g projectile into the shorter case and come up with any ballistics that meets or exceeds the Swede and that the 6.5x55 also can be used with a short action...have one on my Savage. No problem. Besides the 260 Remington brass sucks.

There isn't 25 fps difference either way between the 6.5x55 and the .260 when using 140-142 grain bullets.
And the 6.5 only gets this close when it is loaded 10,000+ psi ABOVE SAAMI SPECS!

According to Ken Waters there isn't 2 grains of water difference between the 2 when same bullets are loaded to same length.

The .260 is also BETTER suited to a short action because the case is .129" shorter than the 6.5x55 meaning the same bullets have to be seated deeper into the powder column of the 6.5 to fit the same SA magazine.

Finally, there is brass, with proper headstamp, available from Norma, Nosler, and Remington for the .260 Rem, so your brass quality argument doesn't stand either.

You can have all the nostalgia you want but the 6.5x55 offers NOTHING over the .260 Rem.
And it only gets close if you OVERLOAD the 6.5x55.

A 2 grain difference in case capacity, 54 grains for the 260 vs. 56 grains for the 6.5x55, amounts to 3.7% difference and, using the 4 to 1 ratio ROT, about a 1% increase in velocity potential, assuming that all other variable factors are equal.

I'm not a fan of Remington brass, perhaps due to the early influence of Jack O'C, who liked Winchester/Olin brass. I have used Norma and Winchester/Olin 243 brass to make most of my 260 cases since 10/97.

Jeff

That 2 grain advantage is only if the 6.5 doesn't have to seat the bullets into the powder column to meet mag length requirements too.

You could not pick two cartridges that are closer ballistic twins than these two.

Jeff, have you tried the Norma or the Nosler .260 brass ever?

Jeff,

What are you using for a case capacity reference?

I've used "The Handloaders Manual of Cartridge Conversions" and "Pet Loads" for a long time but I would really like another source.

Thanks

I don't remember where I got it, but I have it on an EXCEL worksheet so I can let EXCEL do the math for me.

If you have EXCEL and would like a copy of my worksheet, sent me a PM with your email address and I will send it to you.

Jeff

Yeah guys but I'm beginning to fall into love with everything that I read on the 6.5x55BJAI. You see, I have no intentions of loading it to the max. I simply wish to get that 150 to 200FPS more and keep the accuracy.

My 6.5x55 to 6.5-284 rechamber, a 1986 vintage Winchester/USRA 70 Fwt, has been very successful. It has the shortest barrel of my 6.5-284s, 22", but gets consistantly higher velocity for the same loads. It really is 1 of those "faster" barrels.

Jeff

FWIW, the 6.5x55 and 6.5-284 have EXACTLY the same case length, so the 6.5x55 CAN be used in a short action rifle, but I doubt that the 160 grain Norma factory loads would fit in the magazine box of most short action rifles. Although 4mm of case length isn't much, it often is just enough to be GO/NO-GO to determine if a cartridge will work through the magazine or if you have to load it as a single shot.

I like the 6.5x55, 6.5-284, 257 Roberts, 7x57, etc. but think that some of them, because of the combination of bore diameters and bullets, work better in short actions then others do. I like the 257 Roberts, but think that if a person was designing a short action .257" bore cartridge shorter than the 30-06 parent case, they would be more likely to pick the 308 as the parent case, rather than the 7x57, if part of the criteria was "best" fit in a short action.

Jeff

Have you ever had any feed problems with the 6.5-284? That is the only other cartridge that I have considered. If I was to build one, it too would be downloaded a little. I'm looking for the 2900fps velocities with 140gr bullets.

I have 6.5-284s built on Remington 7, Remington 700, Savage 99, and Winchester 70 PF actions. The Winchester 70 is the only long action and I haven't had any trouble feeding. However, some people do report feeding issues in Remington 700s, so the feed rails might need just a light touch with an Arkansas Stone.

Jeff

Bob Jourdan loads

129 gr.
4064 41.0 2,791.....42.0 2,838 27" barrel.
4350 47.0 2,874.....48.0 2,963
H414 47.0 2,903.....51.0 3,080
H4831 49.0 2,929....53.0 2,986
7828 54.0 3,075

140 gr.
4350 47.0 2,808.....48.0 2,883 27" barrel
H414 48.0 2,861.....50.0 2,968
H4831 48.0 2,803....53.0 2,922
7828 51.0 2,872

Note Different powder lots can make 100 fps change with the same load.

Those are just beautiful numbers. I feel like I just played the lottery and won!

Have y'all ever tried a ratchet-rifled barrel? They say they are faster, more accurate, and easier to clean.

Note that those number were generated using a 27" barrel. Cut it back to 24" and you're likely to drop between 60 and 90 fps.

Jeff

Wow! Still around 2900fps! I like 'em 24 inch barrels?

I know this is an old thread but I have been shooting a 6.5x55 BJI for a year now. I had one built on a 700 adl long action, the action was trued up and the bolt face done. I put a 28" barrel on it. I have been loading it with 47.5 grains of rl22 and getting 2830-2860 fps with a 140 grain a-max or 140 vld. I have never been total happy with how it shoots and am having the barrel set back and re cambered before the shooting season starts this spring to see if I can get the results I am looking for. I may even have to re barrel but I will try the set back first. I also am trying a new HS stock on it that I just got this week.
When I say I am not total happy with accuracy I was hopping for less than .5 moa and have found the gun very inconsistent some days shooting .25 MOA and some days 1.5 MOA and not able to figure out why. I think my best relay in a shoot was a 48.4 at 900 yards out of a possible 50.10. That's Canadian F class scoring not just sure how you score F/class in the U.S. That's not a bad score but the next relay at 800 yards was not even close.
I have had no trouble pushing 140 grain bullets up past 2900 fps with pressure signs only starting at close to 3000 fps. I wanted to stay a little slower than that to help with barrel life but I am thinking that this may be part of why it shoots inconsistently as some people say the 6.5s like to shoot around 2900 for the most accurate round. I will be doing a little research on this. I would like to get 2000 rounds out of a barrel but this one at 1200 rounds even with most of them down around 2800 may be done. I am going to give it another chance as I really like a 6.5x55 I am just not sure I would bother going improved again if I did not all ready have the dies and reamer.

I did not go with the 6.5x55BJAI. Instead I went with a 6.5 Rogue, which is identical with the exception of a 37 deg shoulder instead of the 40 deg. on the BJAI. Here is an initial load-finding response of a 140 SMK with 50 grains of H4831SC pushing it.

"the 1999 British Long-Range Benchrest Championship was won by a Tikka Continental in 6.5x55. Group size was an almost unbelievable 10 rounds into 4.4 inches at 1,000 yards."

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_2_49/ai_95680073/pg_3/?tag=content;col1

There is a reason this round has flourished world wide since designed in 1891...it simply works.....and very well.

No doubt an 'improved case' can give a little less drop/drift, but the above is 'proof in the pudding' of the original.

Looks like a shooter - the rifle and the indian! Congrats.