I was wondering how many smiths out there will go so far as guarantee 1/4moa accuracy from the rifles they build. I see some 1/2 moa rifles guaranteed but very rarely 1/4moa guarantee. This also leads me to how many shooters out there can shoot 1/4 and how many shots do the smiths say will hold there guarantee. Is it 1 shot 3 shots 5 shots?
This also leads me to how many shooters out there can shoot 1/4...
There's the big variable.
Who is shooting, and under what conditions?
And what is the guarantee? 1/4 MOA every time, or most of the time, or sometimes, or just that "it can do it", but not necessarily on command so to say?
An honest quarter minute rifle, EVERY time, is rather rare...
That is the biggest crock that I have heard in a while. I'll put up substantial money that you can't shoot 5-5 shot groups with a .250 aggregate unless shooting a BR rifle. Butch
I just happened upon an unnamed small time smith who claims every gun he makes is guaranteed to 1/4 moa. I had never seen that claim before so that is what spured my question.
Guarantee as stated. 1 shot group will consistantly be less than 1/4 MOA. If not, return rifle with target proving your 1 shot is over 1/4 MOA. Include ammo for testing so we can diagnose your problem. Important, include return postage.
No 'smith can guarantee the barrel is going to shoot 1/4" (even if he does his job correctly). If he is going to give a 1/4" guarantee, he is taking a risk & relying on the barrel to be 'a good one.
My guess, this particuler builder is just hoping nobody would complain long as it shoots 1/2". And most would not. I can see where the 1/4" advertisement could draw a few customer's in the door.
I was wondering how many smiths out there will go so far as guarantee 1/4moa accuracy from the rifles they build. I see some 1/2 moa rifles guaranteed but very rarely 1/4moa guarantee. This also leads me to how many shooters out there can shoot 1/4 and how many shots do the smiths say will hold there guarantee. Is it 1 shot 3 shots 5 shots?
I'm guessing gun makers will start guaranteeing 1/4 MOA rifles when God starts guaranteeing 1/4 MOA shooters.......
I was wondering how many smiths out there will go so far as guarantee 1/4moa accuracy from the rifles they build. I see some 1/2 moa rifles guaranteed but very rarely 1/4moa guarantee. This also leads me to how many shooters out there can shoot 1/4 and how many shots do the smiths say will hold there guarantee. Is it 1 shot 3 shots 5 shots?
I'm guessing gun makers will start guaranteeing 1/4 MOA rifles when God starts guaranteeing 1/4 MOA shooters.......
Exactly my point. To much room for shooter error in the guarantee. I see few 1/4 moa shooters anywhere. I may get a stray group to go that tight but not on an average.
That is the biggest crock that I have heard in a while. I'll put up substantial money that you can't shoot 5-5 shot groups with a .250 aggregate unless shooting a BR rifle. Butch
Where do you draw the line between what is and is not a BR rifle? On which side of your line does a squared up, tuned up, 700 action fall? What about optics? What about triggers? Barrels?
Tom, Square up your Remington, use the best scope, use your best barrel, and trigger. No BR stocks. How is that? My home range is very friendly. Berms all around the 100yd range. We will use a timer and you will have 7 minutes for each 5 shot group.I ain't going to let you sit there all day between shots. Let me know. Butch
I read an article in Precision Shooting about 8 years ago that stated there aren't any true 1/4" rifles. Almost all competitive benchresters can shoot in the teens, but not every time. The article took the stance that over the lifetime of any barrel, none of them would agg 1/4", and the author gave some very compelling statitics to back up his claim.
Bench rest matches, shooting the most accurate rifles and chamberings available, can sometimes be won with a .250 agg. That's using wind flags and sighter shots to see how the conditions are moving your point of impact while shooting a group. No matter how accurately a rifle is capable of shooting It'd be inviting disappointment to tell someone that the .243 or 30-06 you just chambered for him is guaranteed 1/4", knowing he's just gonn'a set up his bipod and let 5 fly downrange.
That is the biggest crock that I have heard in a while. I'll put up substantial money that you can't shoot 5-5 shot groups with a .250 aggregate unless shooting a BR rifle. Butch
I agree with this 100%....even shooting a BR rifle that is really tough.
That is the biggest crock that I have heard in a while. I'll put up substantial money that you can't shoot 5-5 shot groups with a .250 aggregate unless shooting a BR rifle. Butch
I read an article in Precision Shooting about 8 years ago that stated there aren't any true 1/4" rifles. Almost all competitive benchresters can shoot in the teens, but not every time. The article took the stance that over the lifetime of any barrel, none of them would agg 1/4", and the author gave some very compelling statitics to back up his claim.
You wouldn't by chance have a copy of that article would you?
Tom, Square up your Remington, use the best scope, use your best barrel, and trigger. No BR stocks. How is that? My home range is very friendly. Berms all around the 100yd range. We will use a timer and you will have 7 minutes for each 5 shot group.I ain't going to let you sit there all day between shots. Let me know. Butch
I think I've seen 2 that'd do it but the "no BR stocks" part might break the deal. I'm pretty sure both were set up for a pedastle rest .. 3"-ish inch flat bottomed stocks.
One was a .22 PPC on a 700. I've seen quite a few 5 shot groups in the .1s from that rifle. Not sure the owner can do it every time though which is the kicker, eh? The other is a 6 BR. I've shot that particular gun. The only 5 shots I ever put through it went .359 at 200 yards.
Hard to say for sure. I'm sure that 5-5 shot .250 can be done but I'm fairly sure it's rare especially if you take way flat bottomed competition stocks. You'll never reliably outshoot the limits of the weakest component in the system.
As said in previous posts, there are very few people that I have seen or had in our classes that can shoot 1/4 moa consistently. Personally I have shot several 1/4moa or less groups. Can I go 5 5 shot groups in a row, probably not. I guarantee 1/2moa or less on all of the rifles that leave our shop. This is under field conditions, off a bipod, prone. I test each rifle that leaves to make sure of this and provide test targets and load data. I generally shoot 3-5 5 shot groups with the small rifles, and typically a couple will be well under the .250moa, with all of them well under 1/2moa. I feel perfectly comfortable with my 1/2moa guarantee. The last 3 rifles that shipped out all shot in the .1's. These were not benchrest type stock rifles either. One of them was even a 22-243 that the customer can shoot it better yet calling me with a 5 shot group less than the .1" it shot when I tested it.
I have a hunting rifle, a custom 6.5-284 with Krieger bbl, pillared and bedded with Jewell trigger. I've shot one group into the teens and another into the twos. Consistently, all I can hope to do on a bench is 1/2" to 3/4" consistently. Out in the field, minute of antelope, trying to out guess the wind. At least the rifle's performance history gives me confidence to fairly consistently shoot minute of antelope...
I do see that Clay Spencer will guarantee his ground hog rifle to shoot 1/4 inch groups on his web site. never owned one just saying he states that on his web site
I'm sure that 5-5 shot .250 can be done but I'm fairly sure it's rare especially if you take way flat bottomed competition stocks. You'll never reliably outshoot the limits of the weakest component in the system.
Your a pretty bright boy there tom. Rounded forends are great for huning rifles but put demands on gun handleing that most shooters cant meet. A flat forend either 2.25 ot 3 inches wide makes a big difference. But a important thing to remember is that in benchrest EVERYTHING, makes a big difference.
Did you notice that tacops are shooting 3 shot groups? Everybody carries around billfold groups. I have shot groups as small as .072 for 5 shots in competition at 100 yds and as small as .152 at 200yds in competition. The key is putting together 5-5shot groups. It really isn't easy when you are on the clock and the wind isn't cooperating. I won a Clay Spencer BR rifle in Phoenix at the Cactus Classic. It was not a 1/4moa rifle. Butch
Benchrest is a completely different game, for a field rifle it is a balance between having tolerances as tight as possible while still tolerating debris and magazine feed ammo. The most important aspect of a field rifle is reliability.
With regard to field use I often wonder how much accuracy can really be used when your using a pack and reading wind that shifts twice at three different speeds between the rifle and target. I know I cannot read wind within a 1/4moa anyway....
Mike R. of Tac Ops certainly makes a 1/4MOA guaranteed rifle, with most falling in at 1/8MOA or less. He's also not the only one that shoots them to that level either, as he has quite a following of disciplined shooters to back up his claims.....Otherwise known as darn happy customers.
Something the naysayers missed about the claim both the first and second, perhaps third time it was mentioned, was that was with FACTORY AMMO....Granted it is Federal Match, but we're not talking fire-formed cases and individually-seated rounds here either.
Never say never, as the impossible becomes possible all the time.
Field shooting is a completely different ballgame. If my hunting rifles shoot a true 1moa. It is my fault if I miss my game. I do not burn up my hunting rifles at the range going through a multitude of bullets and different powders and loads. When I am consistant 2" groups at 200yds or better I quit wearing out the rifle. Butch
Mike R. of Tac Ops certainly makes a 1/4MOA guaranteed rifle, with most falling in at 1/8MOA or less. He's also not the only one that shoots them to that level either, as he has quite a following of disciplined shooters to back up his claims.....Otherwise known as darn happy customers.
Something the naysayers missed about the claim both the first and second, perhaps third time it was mentioned, was that was with FACTORY AMMO....Granted it is Federal Match, but we're not talking fire-formed cases and individually-seated rounds here either.
Never say never, as the impossible becomes possible all the time.
I remain somewhat dubious that anyone can produce a rifle that averages 0.25" at 100 yards, much less one that will shoot 0.250 every time a group is shot. Besides, groups are for competition. Tac Ops, if their name is any indication of what the "mission" of their rifles is, would be more concerned where the first, cold bore, round hit.
Mike R. of Tac Ops certainly makes a 1/4MOA guaranteed rifle, with most falling in at 1/8MOA or less. He's also not the only one that shoots them to that level either, as he has quite a following of disciplined shooters to back up his claims.....Otherwise known as darn happy customers.
Something the naysayers missed about the claim both the first and second, perhaps third time it was mentioned, was that was with FACTORY AMMO....Granted it is Federal Match, but we're not talking fire-formed cases and individually-seated rounds here either.
Never say never, as the impossible becomes possible all the time.
Matt, You're sure making yourself look bad. You're saying it will shoot as well as or better than a BR rifle? Yes, that is what you are saying. Do you realize that his laser shooting 6.5 or 264 mag would have to shoot a group that is approx the size of a 223 case head to shoot a 1/8MOA? A 1/4MOA group would be slightly smaller than the size of a magnum case head? Yeah it may have happened a time or 2, but that does not make it a 1/4MOA rifle. If that is the case My rifle that shot a .072 group would be a 1/16MOA rifle. Well it is not! Butch
If that is the case My rifle that shot a .072 group would be a 1/16MOA rifle. Well it is not!
It was THAT day!
I've got a few "show" groups in the .1"-s and .2"-s with my 7mm-08 deer hunting rifle too. It was an honest sub-quarter-MOA rifle at least a couple times.
Most other days, it's more in the mood to be a .5"-.7" gun, and I'm happy to let it be!
Do yourself a favor and read up on the "Tango 51" before you doubt what Mike can and does.
I did Roy. I also noted he has a 2.25 ~ 2.5 lb trigger pull. Benchresters have Jewel triggers that are often set at 1.5 ounces. The only thing the shooter touches is the trigger with the pad of his finger. Wind flags all over the place�it just doesn�t add up. The only thing I saw that might be different is he has a very tight chamber, and he has his own barrel with a chrome-lined bore (he also offer Krieger). I'm not saying that he can't shoot 1/8" groups or 1/4" groups. What I am saying is I remain dubious that any rifle can shoot a 1/4" group every time the trigger is pulled unless 1 round constitutes a group. I'll try to find that article in Precision Shooting. It's a very well-written, well-documented article proposing that not even benchrest rifles are true 0.25" rifles if you agg the groups over the life of the barrel. Don't you think that all you would see on the benchrest circuit is Tango 51 rifles if they really agg'ed 0.25"?
I haven't read Mike's website, so I'll ask you, is Mile saying that his rifles will shoot that way all the time ? That would be a ridiculous claim and I doubt that's what he saying. My guess is that the Tango is capable of shooting 1/4 moa if the shooter is. I think some here are taking the claim out of context.
nb/ If you gave a Tango 51 to Swampman it would not shoot 1/4 inch groups ever
I'd say you could certainly build a .25 moa or less shooter that would average that group. Thats the question. Yes it can be done and actually wouldn't be all that hard.
The trick to that is that it would have to be fired machine rest in an indoor controlled elements range.
After all at least part of group size is the shooter. There are no perfect shooters out there. Never will be.
So bottom line, yep no problem at .25 moa but the shooter and the conditions will ruin that all day long.
I haven't read Mike's website, so I'll ask you, is Mile saying that his rifles will shoot that way all the time ? That would be a ridiculous claim and I doubt that's what he saying. My guess is that the Tango is capable of shooting 1/4 moa if the shooter is. I think some here are taking the claim out of context.
Roy,
I would readily believe his Tango 51 is capable of shooting a �� if the shooter is capable. But, guarantee a �� group every time you take it out to shoot? Not hardly. I�m a live example. I might get consistent 1� groups with the occasional 1/2� group. Outside of the top-flight benchrest shooters, true �� groups aren�t that common, especially if you�re belly-crawling to a firing position and shooting prone off of a bipod with bugs biting you and the heat causing you to get sweat in your eyes. If Mike guarantees his Tango 51 is capable of �� groups, he needs to be certain the shooter is capable as well.
I haven't read Mike's website, so I'll ask you, is Mile saying that his rifles will shoot that way all the time ? That would be a ridiculous claim and I doubt that's what he saying. My guess is that the Tango is capable of shooting 1/4 moa if the shooter is. I think some here are taking the claim out of context.
Roy,
I would readily believe his Tango 51 is capable of shooting a �� if the shooter is capable. But, guarantee a �� group every time you take it out to shoot? Not hardly. I�m a live example. I might get consistent 1� groups with the occasional 1/2� group. Outside of the top-flight benchrest shooters, true �� groups aren�t that common, especially if you�re belly-crawling to a firing position and shooting prone off of a bipod with bugs biting you and the heat causing you to get sweat in your eyes. If Mike guarantees his Tango 51 is capable of �� groups, he needs to be certain the shooter is capable as well.
Thats my point. NO one is going to say the shooter is capable and thats not what Mike is saying either, the saying is that the rifle is capable every time. Thats is the ONLY thing that makes sense. Hell the shooter can be capable but the conditions not. Thats 3 variables already. Anyone that takes a bit of time to sit back and think it through, would realize when you guarantee something like that, its ONE variable, not the other two plus.....
I can guarantee, at least Ive read enough about Butch to say that I"ll bet you he is capable of .25 moa every time he goes out to shoot. But he misses the conditions and bang... . 25 is out the window. Didn't mean he didn't do the mechanics correctly, just that he missed the condition.
I"d have thought that was pretty plain to see. Of course I've been in shooting long enough to see someone roll up to the line with a 4-5000 bucks in a new match rifle and shoot a cylinder bore group in sitting rapid fire and cuss the rifle...... and sometimes, I'll just wonder over (and at that time most all folks knew me on all the ranges I shot on) and say.. mind if I shoot it once? Sure... Go over to the line official, sure.. run a rapid string one more time before pit change.... 100..... 5-6x or more depending if I had the zero correct enough.... and thats not good shooting, but shows that what a shooter shoots, is not always representative( I should say almost always not....) of what the GUN is capable of day in and day out.
I haven't read Mike's website, so I'll ask you, is Mile saying that his rifles will shoot that way all the time ? That would be a ridiculous claim and I doubt that's what he saying. My guess is that the Tango is capable of shooting 1/4 moa if the shooter is. I think some here are taking the claim out of context.
Roy,
I would readily believe his Tango 51 is capable of shooting a �� if the shooter is capable. But, guarantee a �� group every time you take it out to shoot? Not hardly. I�m a live example. I might get consistent 1� groups with the occasional 1/2� group. Outside of the top-flight benchrest shooters, true �� groups aren�t that common, especially if you�re belly-crawling to a firing position and shooting prone off of a bipod with bugs biting you and the heat causing you to get sweat in your eyes. If Mike guarantees his Tango 51 is capable of �� groups, he needs to be certain the shooter is capable as well.
A 200 yard BR target. Shot during a registered match. And I was proud of my .152 group at 200yds. Sure made my group look large. Butch
Butch Hope ya got that framed somewhere in the shop..... Y'all are lucky.. you get to see the target, best I have somewhere is a 3 inch spotter from my 600 yard service rifle days that had 17 holes in the spotter, out of a 20 shot no sighter match...
Though our very first clean targets in rapids, IE 100 out of 100 and some Xs were given to us, thats a fairly common tradition in highpower but the groups suck when you look at em today.... there are a few I wish I had from nationals but that rarely happens....to get a target back from there....
I still have 5 targets that I shot a few years ago. The first 4 -5shot groups averaged .195. I went up for the last group and had the first 4 in a .150. Time for the last shot. I got anxious and got my shoulder into the butt as I touched off the trigger. The last bullet dropped out the bottom and measured .911. I went from first to 33rd and last place. Anybody that shoots competition will have times the gun goes off tune, you miss a wind condition, or bad gun handling. You know after many years of competing I could show a bunch of good targets, but not a whole lot of them that were all shot in one match. That's what it takes to be a winner. Butch
1/4 moa guarantee and wedding vow's are identical.....after many years and many changes of rose colored glasses you realize you got lied to to some extent but you just learn how to deal with it and move on... or not.
1/4 moa guarantee and wedding vow's are identical.....after many years and many changes of rose colored glasses you realize you got lied to to some extent but you just learn how to deal with it and move on... or not.
I still have 5 targets that I shot a few years ago. The first 4 -5shot groups averaged .195. I went up for the last group and had the first 4 in a .150. Time for the last shot. I got anxious and got my shoulder into the butt as I touched off the trigger. The last bullet dropped out the bottom and measured .911. I went from first to 33rd and last place. Anybody that shoots competition will have times the gun goes off tune, you miss a wind condition, or bad gun handling. You know after many years of competing I could show a bunch of good targets, but not a whole lot of them that were all shot in one match. That's what it takes to be a winner. Butch
Guess what happens when you are shooting an iron sighted AR15 offhand at 200 yards in a match and about to fire your first ever perfect score? And you push your shoulder into it a bit with tension... grins....
Or when you have a national record at 600 prone IN THE BAG... all you have to do is shoot another 10 or X.... and you have 17X downrange already..... and the coach says... don't F this up, you are about to set a national record( what F'n coach is idiot enough to say that in that situation? A jealous one IMHO... but I failed...) anyway that body/shoulder tension on the last shot.... well at least I shot a 9 and not worse.....
I feel for ya.
Honest opinion though from ya please. Am I off to think that a correctly built rifle that didn't get a dud for a barrel, should, from a machine rest, in ZERO conditions, shoot .25 moa pretty easy? At least at the short range of 100 yards? Thats assuming perfect ammo also.. Ya know what I mean there....
Of course you just gave a prime example of being fully capable of firing a lot of almost perfect shots... and then being human and oopsing... lets just say we know the .911 ag wasn't the fault of the rifle..
Ralph, to put it another way, the new Porsche GT2 RS recorded a 7:18 on this famous German track. I don't think I could duplicate it but I'd have some fun trying.......
No doubt that boy can drive. I've seen several of his vids and they are amazing to say the least. I liked the first one he did driving a 530 hp Subaru WRX.
I know I'm getting off-topic here...but I love to drive...FAST. I taught Emergency Vehicle Operation, formerly known as Pursuit Driving School, before the attorneys have just about made it impossible to justify a pursuit. In 3 days of driving on an old airfield every car had to get a new set of Goodyear Eagles. We put the equivilant of 20,000 miles of wear on each vehicle in 3 days. But it was worth it. Those men learned what their cars could not do, and what their cars could do. Once a year for a week...what a blast!
butchlambert1 The time I shot at Kelblys in a Nationals a number of years ago.I shot 33rd at 100 and 22nd at 200 for a combined place of 18th. My agg was .1968.For 50 rounds fired. I blundered into the top 20.On a range that I'd never shot before. Not a big fan of that rifle range. The rifle is a 10.5 light varmint Stolle Panda Hart 1-14 LV 22 long in 6mm PPC McMillian BR stock. Jewell trigger set to about 1.oz (feels heavy by the end of the day) Leupold 36x boosted to 40 by PR. Load was 65g custom flat base 6mm bullet from a roshack die on on a .74 seirra jacket. 27.3g Thunderbird 322 220 russian case 205 M Federal primer. It was without a dought the most accurate rifle I've ever been around. The limiting factor in the rifles performance....was me.
I still have 5 targets that I shot a few years ago. The first 4 -5shot groups averaged .195. I went up for the last group and had the first 4 in a .150. Time for the last shot. I got anxious and got my shoulder into the butt as I touched off the trigger. The last bullet dropped out the bottom and measured .911. I went from first to 33rd and last place.
Did the rifle have a 1/4-MOA guarantee?
Ya should've asked for your money back, based on it not meeting stated performance guarantees.
Take it for what its worth but at the Sacramento match last week I was in the target butts and on the second relay and watched a guy run a 3 shot 500yard group that was right at an inch. He followed up with a 3 shot group at 600 that was only slightly larger and one group under 3" at 800. I did not know the shooter but the guy pulling his target said it was the Tac-ops Xray shooting factory ammo.
I completly understand its more in the shooters hands, it dont take a whole lot of wind to make a 1/4" group a 1/2" group, but having seen those rifles run by talented shooters I would not bet against it.
You have to remember that the customer base for TacOps is not the same or even close to what we would need or use. Mike sells to large law enforcement depts with specialized units such as SWAT, ERT etc and these guys have the luxury of shooting every day. One of these units (can't remember if they were from Arizona or California) beat the USMC in a tactical match that involves lots of running and shooting from various positions at various distances. Can't remember what the match is called but it's a yearly event.
Well from reading, they haven't discovered any new techniques.
The sad part is most folks wont' spend the bucks to have the throat designed around their bullet. I have done that on specialty bullets. I didn't do near enough research and probably our smith could have been even more precise in the design, but then again I was using a special bullet but also other standard ones so I could not be much more precise.
The rest of it is just what a good smith should really do if they are after the top of the line accuracy.
I found it interesting that they do not use a steady rest when threading, chambering and turning the barrels, because of the torque.
I read about this many years ago, that chambering while using a steady rest can cause torque, or twist, resulting in chatter.
For that reason, I never used a steady rest while chambering a barrel. I never read about it anywhere else. Nice to see that confirmed.
I was also interested to note that they use Paul Bos, considered by many to be the best knife blade heat treater, to do their cyro treating.
As mentioned above, they don't seem to have discovered any new techniques, but they seem to have precision down to a fine art, and it shows on the target range.
1234567, I don't know of any of the BR smiths that use the steady. Most have been doing it in the headstock for years. 7mmDave, I had a third in a yardage at the Super Shoot a few years ago. With 300-400 of the best shooters in the World there makes anything in the top 50 pretty damn good. I will say my shop did all the police cars for the city of Rowlett,Tx for years. Goodyear sold Government agency tires very cheap. I will have to agree with RD on the tire thing. I won't use Goodyears on my Wife's Denali or my Duramax. Too expensive and don't last. We will stay with the Michelins. Butch
They wore out quickly because they were made of a softer compound that held the road better than tires that were guaranteed for 50K miles; Goodyear Eagles were a pursuit tire that targeted the law enforcement market. I never hydroplaned with them on my caprices, and that softer formulation did "grab" the road better. We wore them out in 20,000 miles. I felt like it was a very good trade-off given I had more confidence that my steering input would result in a correct change of direction, especially when pursuing someone. Our county was pretty big. We had 50 miles of highway that ran North-South, and at the North and AND the South ends were large trailer parks. We spent a lot of time flying back and forth on that highway as fast as our cars would go backing one another up on domestic violence calls in progress and other calls.
Best Goodyears I've ever owned were on my Polaris Sportsman 500. Even on quads they wore much quicker than harder compounds such as some of the Dunlaps. They had they best grip of any quad tire we tried because of the softer compound. Downside was sidewall "pinch" type flats that were common with the rocky trails and power line cuts we rode on. We used to carry plug kits and I carried a small electric plump in a rack bag cause it was almost certain one of us were going to get a sidewall flat between the 5 or 6 guys we rode with on Sunday mornings.
Interesting read. Pretty similar techniques that alot of guys use. Here is a pic from a recent barrel breakin. I have received a few PM's about accuracy guarantee's, so I figured I would post up a pic. This is a 15 shot breakin. Shoot one, clean for the first 5 and 2 5 shot groups. I like to shoot them all on one target to see what the barrel's do during the process for my own info. This is prone on the ground off a bipod and rear bag. This is one of our Law Enforcement platform rifles. In testing, the guys and myself have shot several 5 shot 1/4 moa groups under field conditions. Can we do it every time? Nope, but they are never over 3/8", even supressed. And the rifle
+1 on the Polaris Goodyears. The sidewalls are really weak. We always carry plugs and patches as well.
1/4 moa guarantee is strictly a guarantee for the rifle. Which I believe is doable (for the rifle).
Face the facts, you can make the guarantee as a builder but how many guys are true 1/4 moa shooters. If the wind is blowing at all you better have flags and know how to read them if you want consistency, period. Not to mention your rifle/barrel better be up to the job.
So how often does the builder have to back his claim up?? Not often I would imagine. Then if he has to, how in the hell can he control all the variables in shooting for the customer.......?? Your right, he can't. He can only control it if he is doing the shooting.
Guys post one target all the time and say look a .0000145" 5 shot group. Again, lots of rifles will put down a nice wallet group (.250" or less for 5 measured C to C) once or twice in its life, but to do it consistently is generally SKILLED benchrest territory.
Below are some targets from a 6.5x47 lapua that I had. These were shot off the ground w/ bi-pod and a rear sock at 100yds. Each paper consists of 5 shot groups (one three shot and one 7 shot group, noted if you look close). This was a very good shooting rifle that would hammer at 600yds if I did my part.
1/4 moa rifle....I think it may qualify, but me off the ground? Close but no cigar. JMHO fellas.. shoot straight
There two smiths that I know personally that make this promise that I know of. There may be a third, but I would need to contact him to make sure.
It is one 3-shot group @ 100 yards that the smith shoots with his loads. I have never seen a smith promise that the customer can achieve this group size. Not a 5-shot group or an agg of multiple groups. This is more easily attainable.
I would be happy if all of my groups were 1/2 MOA out to 1K-Fun to wish
1234567, I don't know of any of the BR smiths that use the steady. Most have been doing it in the headstock for years. 7mmDave, I had a third in a yardage at the Super Shoot a few years ago. With 300-400 of the best shooters in the World there makes anything in the top 50 pretty damn good. I will say my shop did all the police cars for the city of Rowlett,Tx for years. Goodyear sold Government agency tires very cheap. I will have to agree with RD on the tire thing. I won't use Goodyears on my Wife's Denali or my Duramax. Too expensive and don't last. We will stay with the Michelins. Butch
I have some gunsmith books that shows using a steady rest, but they are not BR guns.
Mike R. of Tac Ops certainly makes a 1/4MOA guaranteed rifle, with most falling in at 1/8MOA or less. He's also not the only one that shoots them to that level either, as he has quite a following of disciplined shooters to back up his claims.....Otherwise known as darn happy customers.
Something the naysayers missed about the claim both the first and second, perhaps third time it was mentioned, was that was with FACTORY AMMO....Granted it is Federal Match, but we're not talking fire-formed cases and individually-seated rounds here either.
Never say never, as the impossible becomes possible all the time.
Matt, You're sure making yourself look bad. You're saying it will shoot as well as or better than a BR rifle? Yes, that is what you are saying. Do you realize that his laser shooting 6.5 or 264 mag would have to shoot a group that is approx the size of a 223 case head to shoot a 1/8MOA? A 1/4MOA group would be slightly smaller than the size of a magnum case head? Yeah it may have happened a time or 2, but that does not make it a 1/4MOA rifle. If that is the case My rifle that shot a .072 group would be a 1/16MOA rifle. Well it is not! Butch
Butch, I'm afraid the only one looking bad in this is you. I've spent quite a bit of time on the phone with Mike and I've seen numerous examples of his work and their results out on the target range. When he says he's guaranteeing 1/4MOA and achieving 1/8, it's a fact and more than several customers have posted their results that back up his claim. Each rifle leaves with a 3 shot group that he personally shot that are closer to 1/8MOA than 1/4MOA on a regular basis.
The original question was whether a smith puts a guarantee of 1/4MOA on their rifles. The answer is yes under the above mentioned conditions, not withstanding aggs, best out of 3 or benchrest-type competitions.
Again, this is FACTORY AMMO.
Call Mike up and proceed to tell him all the rifles he's built don't work as prescribed and he's a liar. Better yet, tell all his customers they didn't shoot the groups they did.
Head over to Sniper's Central and ask around a little before you make statements about how someone is "looking".
Since the chamber is cut to fit the FGMM what about the other stuff. I deploy with FGMM and bonded ammo for punching barriers and glass. FGMM is great factory ammo but the SMK is not a do it all bullet.
I have shot a few thousand FGMM 168s. Some lots #s are much better than others. I would like to wring one out. BTW since become a firearms instructor,assigned to the Sniper team and an Armorer on all of our weapons systems, I shoot far less than most patrol guys do. All of my shooting and testing is done on my time.
Butch some of these posts make me glad I use PT&G and Shadetree products.
Back in the 90�s at Quantico during the last years of the M-14 being used for service rifle competition, the Marines had an aggressive program to obtain � MOA out of the rifles built for the Gold Team. Factory Federal Gold Match did not cut it, so the Loading Shack was completely revamped with state of the art equipment. A new load was developed with special Berger VLDs using an in-house 22-step loading process. Random samples were shot from each lot in a control test barrel that needed to group a measured � MOA or better to pass. The shop had the M-14s to a science with every tweak imaginable, and they had to be tested against the control test barrel with the new load to hold � MOA before they were passed. The program went so far as to conceal this by packing the in-house VLD ammo into factory Federal cases and shipping them off so they would be delivered at the Nationals in a factory Federal truck. At the Nationals, anyone out the loop would think the Gold Team was shooting Federal Gold Match straight out of the Federal truck, but this was not the case. Granted this was a very aggressive program with large sums of money from a Government budget, but this resulted in the building of both ammunition as well as gas guns that were capable of shooting a measured � MOA in combination. Based on that experience, I�d imagine that it would not be inconceivable for a master gun builder to manufacture a custom bolt action repeater that was capable of shooting a measured � MOA.
I shot a lot during the 90s, and made Perry most every year in the 90s.
I'll just say this having shto the M1A and the AR15 more than just a bit as a HM classed service rifle shooter. I have yet to see an M14 shot at 600 that acted like it was a .25 moa rifle.
Ain't saying it ain't so... but that would typically net one 200s with extremely high X counts typically or lets just say at least 12-15x with a gun that accurate. You just didnt' see those out of all the Marines on the line.
Be interesting to be in the know of what they did to the guns and the ammo to get it that way though.
I have quite a few customs and I have to admit the two that the gunsmiths guaranteed me would shoot 1/4" groups will definately shoot these size groups as long as I do my part. I am presently having one built by Gradous Rifles and will hope to expect the same results
I have quite a few customs and I have to admit the two that the gunsmiths guaranteed me would shoot 1/4" groups will definately shoot these size groups as long as I do my part. I am presently having one built by Gradous Rifles and will hope to expect the same results
When the conditions are right, my Gradous rifles have shot 1/4-1/2" groups many times with sporter weight barrels. Most recent Gradous build seems to be alright also....
I agree if you have a 1/4" rifle you better be feeding it 1/4" ammo if you expect to get 1/4" consistentcy.
IMO a lot of competitive shooters (usually not your hardcore BR guys) don't focus nearly enough on producing the most concentric and consistent cartridges they can reload.
Bottom line is, there are so many different variables, some you can control and some you can't.
The best accuracy guarantee you can get, is to pick a smith you have faith in. Then tell him that the guarantee you want, is that he is going to do the absolute best that he can do building your rifle, period. If you pick the right smith and he does the above, you will more than likely get a tack driving rifle that you will be proud of.
I dont shoot benchrest or know the hot smiths in that community but for those crying foul on the smiths mentioned, particularly Tac Ops, have they ever shot his rifles, talked to the man or even talked to his customers? I dont see a lot of the Tac Ops floating around but have never heard of anyone complaining it did not meet the accuracy standards they were paying the big bucks for. Im looking at the post from Travis and he puts up .432" for the first 15 rounds from the rifle using a bipod and rear bag but it appears some are suggesting that .250" for three shots is not reasonable.
Heck I still remember the early 90's when getting a 1moa guarentee was a big thing and Robar put everyone on notice by claiming 1/2 moa for their SR-90 and wanted $3000 for it then.
This also leads me to how many shooters out there can shoot 1/4...
There's the big variable.
Who is shooting, and under what conditions?
And what is the guarantee? 1/4 MOA every time, or most of the time, or sometimes, or just that "it can do it", but not necessarily on command so to say?
An honest quarter minute rifle, EVERY time, is rather rare...
+1
Shooter, Wind, Front Rest, Rear Bag, Bench technique....just to scratch the surface....
1/4 MOA groups at benchrest matches are a dime a dozen...1/4 minute does not even get you in the running...bored the hell out of me after 8 years of it.
I just happened upon an unnamed small time smith who claims every gun he makes is guaranteed to 1/4 moa. I had never seen that claim before so that is what spured my question.
I would question anything he told me from here to eternity. I couldn't make my benchrest rifles shoot 1/4 MOA day in/day out. Too many variables. Butch pretty well nailed it.
Ain't saying it ain't so... but that would typically net one 200s with extremely high X counts typically or lets just say at least 12-15x with a gun that accurate. You just didnt' see those out of all the Marines on the line.
Be interesting to be in the know of what they did to the guns and the ammo to get it that way though.
You are correct, the intent was high X count. The equipment was built, loaded and tested as being capable, but not every individual could hold hard to that level, but if I'm not mistaken, the Interservice record may still stand for Individual Championship Overall with an Aggregate of 995-50X.
I still have some of the ammo loaded up at the Shack for Perry along with some of the components and powder. I'll dig up my old notes on the load. It was hush hush back then and kept close to the chest like a secret recipe, no big deal now as it was so long ago. Though it was loaded for the gas gun, that was the most accurate ammo I've ever tested out of the M40.
I have quite a few customs and I have to admit the two that the gunsmiths guaranteed me would shoot 1/4" groups will definately shoot these size groups as long as I do my part. I am presently having one built by Gradous Rifles and will hope to expect the same results
When the conditions are right, my Gradous rifles have shot 1/4-1/2" groups many times with sporter weight barrels. Most recent Gradous build seems to be alright also....
You guys are obviously full of it on those groups. They don't make a 1/4 MOA Gun........(grin)
If a guy made a guarantee that he could build a rifle to shoot a 50 shot 1/4 MOA group, I'd call bs, but that's not what I or anyone else has said, nor implied. Most, if not all "guarantees" on accuracy are between a 3-5 shots on a cold barrel with "approved ammo". 1/2 MOA isn't hard to obtain by most respected builders, with even many factory 700's achieving those results and 1/4 MOA is seen often among the top builders, though not more than a handful that I've seen have decided to guarantee those results. Mike is one of them.
The fact of the matter is that the questions was asked and answered and those that expect a rifle to come complete with their own shooter and meteorologist to account for all shooting and weather conditions will most likely be disappointed, simply because it was only the rifle that had the guarantee.
Good thing the discussion wasn't about how accurate xp100's can be and how you can't shoot a good group with a light barrel that's only 14" long.
Matt, So my 6.5x47Lapua will sometimes shoot a 1/4" 3 shot group and probably averages 1/2"-5/8". Is it a 1/4" rifle. I don't claim it to be and I don't save the billfold groups it shoots either. It will kill a deer. Butch
Well, it seems wherever someone pushes the boundaries of conventional wisdom and in turn forces people to question their comfort zones and assumptions of what's possible there follows a lot of controversies. For my part, I came across this thread looking for places to go shoot my TacOps away from the usual ranges in SoCal. Anyway...
I've been lucky to know Mike Rescigno of Tactical Operations for a couple of years and honored to be able to call him a friend. I've seen the great many letters of thanks from various government agencies and SWAT teams from around the world to whom he has supplied his weapons and expertise.
I've also seen his rifles shoot .25moa with factory FGMM 168gr ammo personally and have fired his Tango and X-ray platforms with and without his own Tac-30 suppressors. The man and his guarantees are real. I'm also a customer of his.
I would strongly urge anyone who doubts the abilities of Tactical Operations to do the simplest thing in the world - call Mike and say "Hi Mike, I'm a shooting enthusiast and I've heard some things about your accuracy guarantees that I'd like some more info on. Do you have time to talk?"
All this disbelief and incredulity on the internet serves little purpose when you can have your questions answered by the man behind the promise. You can be candid with your questions, but be POLITE.
Here's the number: (310) 275-8797
For some background reading here are some links for your reading pleasure
An independent review of the Tango-51 from a few years ago
Interesting to read all this and some accuracy guarantees are 3 shot not 5 shot. Some like a Weatherby, just send a target, its been done once.
There isn't a standard that I"m aware of, because while I wont' shoot more than 3 shot groups testing ammo for barrel burners, the BR crowd has settled on 5 shot groups. But if you read statistics wise, seems like I recall 7 shot groups being more reliable indicators. And of course if you delve into highpower like I did all those years, a group is often between 10 and 22 shots, doesn't do me good to know what 3 or 5 shots will do from my gun when a string is 22 shots often.
Honestly another thread attacking what they have not tried. Some of you will learn as I did not to questions Mike R's guarantee. Its real and it is as advertised.
A few years back I heard of Mike R's .25 moa guarantee and told him he was full of c..p. I had not seen a rifle that would do that so was fairly certain he was wrong. He challenged me that he would build me a rifle that would shoot sub .25 moa groups with factory ammo. I took the challenge and paid for the rifle at retail value so if it did not perform I could blow his guarantee out of the water without feeling bad. I got the rifle, a TAC51 and took it out. That rifle has performed better than .25 moa groups ever since, with Federal and Lapua Factory ammo.
I have shot five shot groups of under .25 moa with my Tac Ops at 100 and 200 yards, regularly for a few years since.
If you read any of the threads you will see I have written the TacOps are the Holland and Holland of sniper rifles.
Mike is a nut ( I say in good way as he has become like a brother to me) who wont let a rifle out until he shoots sub .25 moa groups with it and if he is not happy with results he talkes rifle apart and builds again, until it runs as he expect. That is how he is able to make the guarantee. He shoots it and makes sure it works right.
Cost wise his rifles are normal but quality wise he is hard as hell to beat
Understand his market is for Police Snipers which menas that is how he builds his rifles. Ultimate accuracy with factory ammo in configuration needed by SWAT/HRT Types, using factory Federal 168 grain ammo. He uses his [personal techniques to get all the accuracy he can from that ammo. A well thought out approach for market he has captured.
Now other smiths rifles will also shoot .25 moa groups but most need you to tailor handloads to get accuracy that level. Mike's approach is to make his rifle do it with factory ammo. Very smart approach.
Now most of you dont know me from Adam, so just a little about me: 25 years LE many of which sniper and sniper instructor Long time long range competitor with many wins 200-1000 yards shooting a scoped rifle, including Gold and Silver medals in 2009 F TR World Championships.
I think it's great that he has developed a system that shoots so well, and my hats off to you guys that actually can shoot to such a high level....stick around
Swampy should be along any moment to show his 1/4 minute factory rifles, he's simply amazing!
Does Tac Ops pay attention to timing in relation to extraction?
I would hope that anyone that is truing an action and holding tolerances to 50 millionths would know that if you cut material from the bolt and integral lugs you start to lose primary extraction!
Above is link. You showed US Open F Class Team. They have a better website we wont the most medals LOL They are a great bunch of guys. Our website is so so for certain. I need to have my bio updated to include One Gold in Worlds, Two Silver in Worlds, a State Championship win and a few others.
They shoot 6.5x284 and such off BRs we shoot 308 of bipod.
On tolerences and such I am just a shooter and know what shoots and loads ammo no idea on how he makes a rifle, but proof is in pudding and they fng shoot.
[quote=butchlambert1]Now that is another crock! Holding tolerance to .00005. That is flat out BS. Butch [/quot]
Tac ops claim not mine, have no Idea if it's possible, have heard that those who claim such tolerances are doing alot of wishfull thinking, sounds like he is striving for perfection, even if the claims are false!
Now that is another crock! Holding tolerance to .00005. That is flat out BS. Butch
With you on this one.
Really? And how would you know? Have either of you inspected his work? Do you have any facts to support your conclusion or is your own incredulity all the evidence you need to call an honorable man a liar? If you read that thread MikeR says very clearly that Mike at Krieger Barrels will confirm the unprecedented level of concentricity in the TacOps builds.
You know guys, the data and proof and testimonials is all out there. Rather than just judging without any evidence why not look into it? I will warn you though, once you talk to Mike and especially if you handle and shoot one of his rifles you just might want one....
Not sure I can agree with this statement. Too many environmentals at 800 (especially with .308) to say it's easier.
Originally Posted by EddyBo
It is actually easier to guarantee a 1/2 MOA 5 shot group at 800 yards than a 1/4 MOA 5 shot group at 100 yards.
Once again we are talking the ability of the rifle, fired from a cradle in ZERO conditions, not if the shooter is capable of firing the group or reading the conditions well enough. 2 TOTALLY different things.
pensword, Are you a machinest or engineer? If he doesn't have a climate controlled metrology lab, he has no way to check it. Do you even know how small .00005" is? You talk concentricity. Concentric to what? When a barrel is held to .0001 end to end dimension how can you machine it to 1/2 of that. I didn't fall off a turnip truck, so don't try to feed me .00005 crap. He may be the best riflesmith out there, but let's get real about whose thingy is bigger. Read rost495's last post. I do have 2 rifles that will shoot under 1/4moa every time under those conditions. A machined rest and zero conditions. I built them myself in my little shop. A super whizbang gunsmith is not going to produce 1/4moa rifles with factory ammo that does it with different conditions and shooters. It needs to be stated as to what the parameters are. Butch
You guys need to go shooting and let off some steam! Its just a game, and you will never convince anyone of anything with a keystroke. Enjoy the sport and your knowledge of it and take it out on the paper, or critters!
I have to agree .00005 is pushing the Bullchit flag to new levels. The Space Shuttles parts aren't even held to those tolerances. But make no mistakes I am not saying that his rifles don't shoot.
I didn't say you can't measure it. I said they don't hold those tolarences. Let me break it down for those that can not comprehend. You can measure and machine a part to .00005". Now use that part in whatever you choose to. In aviation as in other fields there are allowable tolarences. Meaning that the specific part has a wear tolarance of X.
Now that is another crock! Holding tolerance to .00005. That is flat out BS. Butch
With you on this one.
Really? And how would you know? Have either of you inspected his work? Do you have any facts to support your conclusion or is your own incredulity all the evidence you need to call an honorable man a liar? If you read that thread MikeR says very clearly that Mike at Krieger Barrels will confirm the unprecedented level of concentricity in the TacOps builds.
You know guys, the data and proof and testimonials is all out there. Rather than just judging without any evidence why not look into it? I will warn you though, once you talk to Mike and especially if you handle and shoot one of his rifles you just might want one....
See Butch's response, short of a lab, it is not happeneing. I have to much respect for mike to even beleive he makes that claim. He may hit those tolerances on one or aspect of a built say chamber run out or recoil lug thickness. But tolerances stack to claim that all work is held to .00005 is BS.
Not sure I can agree with this statement. Too many environmentals at 800 (especially with .308) to say it's easier.
Originally Posted by EddyBo
It is actually easier to guarantee a 1/2 MOA 5 shot group at 800 yards than a 1/4 MOA 5 shot group at 100 yards.
Send me some parts, wait a few weeks, and come here for break in and load work. I will bet you the price of the smith work against lunch that I can shoot a 4 inch 800 yard group easier than you can shoot a 1/4 MOA group at 100 yards. Actually, I do not charge anything for my for smith work, so I do not have anything to lose. I will however pay you the actual price of the parts for the build if I cannot shoot a 3 shot 4 inch group at 800. There are some condictions on that like it has to be a 6.5 300 or 7 WSM, a 7 or 300 Mag with at least a No.5 contour cut rifled barrel, and my handloads with my componanats. I make that guarantee on every rifle I build, even though I just build as a hobby for friends and never charge a penny.
Matt, I have 3 of those, but mine are made in Switzerland. Doesn't mean we can work to those tolerances. Butch
Doesn't mean you can't either......
In all fairness, the tightest tolerances I've had to hold were on some parts for Boeing that I made about 1996-1997. A finished bore with a plus or minus of .000075 on the diameter with a bearing race counterbore of plus or minus .0001. At that time I had a climate-controlled inspection room at 72 deg. and the part required normalizing for 2 hours prior to inspection. It was indeed ran out of tolerance on the machine in order to be in tolerance in the inspection room.
I haven't seen Mike's setup on his rifle blueprinting procedures, but I've made enough chips and built enough parts that wasn't supposed to be possible that I will not in public or private say it "can't" be done.
Everyday in machining the bar gets set a little higher and I've seen enough advancements over the last 20 years to be thoroughly impressed with the machining industry on a whole as to what can be done with modern equipment and tooling.
If one hasn't been privy to witnessing production CNC turning by either conventional means or swiss-style, they're in for a treat as to the tolerances that are held day in and day out. Advancements in that arena alone will boggle the mind.
Butch, wouldn't you have to say after reading this thread that Mike is indeed holding up his end of the deal in guaranteeing a 1/4 MOA rifle?
In the future it would be nice to see more people ask the "how" and "why" questions, rather than the immediate condemning remarks that attack a guy's credibility and simply say nothing more than, "I've never seen that done before, so it can't be done".
Heck, people can't even agree on what 1/4moa means, let alone whether or not it's possible to consistantly build rifles to that standard.
Now if the manufacturer is claiming that at 100 yds his rifles will consistantly shoot 3 shot groups that will be 1/4moa or under ctc, I don't find that too implausible.
But if you're saying the gun will hold that 1/4 moa to any range, and you increase the number of shots in the group, I would be highly sceptical. I'd be amazed if factory ammo could consistantly hold 1/4 moa at 1000 yrds for 5 shots in zero conditions with a return to battery rail gun, let alone a shoulder fired weapon.
Put me in the highly sceptical group of a rifle that will day in day out hold 1/4 moa out to 600yds, let alone 800 or 1000.
458 Lott is correct. Under what conditions does he claim it will shoot 1/4MOA. Will it do it once or twice outside during a range session? Does it happen with a couple of picked shooters? 3 shot groups? Mechanical return to battery rest? Define a 1/4MOA rifle. You probably think I'm running down the guy and his rifle. That is not the case. He is claiming a 1/4MOA rifle, but under what parameters? Butch
I don't know myself and without Mike here to defend it it's really just a circle jerk so to speak. Heck, might just as well through McWhorter in the conversation as I think he advertises a 1/4 moa hunting weight rifle. I can tell you that when Walter Birdsong was alive, he spoke very highly of Mike and the Tango 51 saying it was the most accurate tactical rifle he ever fired. High praise coming from a guy who's handled just about every rifle imaginable.
Clay Spencer guarantees the runout on his chambers to be less than 50 millionths, and will invite anyone down to his shop and show you how he's doing this, I had him chamber my 7WSM but I have no way of knowing if my chamber is within his specs, but it's nice to know your smith is looking to raise the bar on accuracy, Mike says he is using "Laser metrology" to check tolerances so it is possible that he is doing what he says, what ever he's doing..it's right!
Ackleyfan, I have a laser on my pistol. Some people are better sales people than others. For the person that brought up Tim McWhorter and his 1/4MOA rifles. http://www.mcwhorterrifles.com/index.html Tim is very good, but the way his website reads is 1/2"MOA. I just read the writeup by SWAT magazine of Tac Ops build on a rifle. He is using factory 700 receivers and factory bolts. He only uses factory recoil lugs reground. He likes Kreiger barrels. His chambering method is similar to BR methods, but not quite. It's kinda like some of the photos shown with 3 shot groups. When the groups are obviously 2 bullet holes wide, how can they measure .191 unless he is shooting a .19 Calhoun. Butch
I believe Clay chambers on a Romi M17 combination lathe.
I hear things like laser metrology, 50 gagillionths and so on... but to actually "prove" it is an another thing. I'm not calling anybody a liar but to work within 50 millionths would certainly need some rigid tooling to avoid any flex. Tac Ops are nice though.
On Remington recoil lugs being reground, not true he makes his own lug and hardens it. Its much tougher than a factory lug. Its all part of his process.
His .25 moa is the guarantee of what the rifle with federal 168 grain match is mechanically capable of at 100 yards, for three shot groups. He takes the rifles out and shoots the groups himself and provided test targets to prove what his rifle will do. NorCal Precision used to offer the same guarantee and once in awhile I ould shoot a rifle that a NorCal Customer would say would not shoot well. I think over a few years I shot 7 or 8 of these rifles and found it was the guy who could not shoot, not the rifle. NorCal retired last year.
Shooting sub .50 moa at 800 yards with 308 is far harder than .25 moa at 100 yards. You run into a host of more problems at 800 yards than at 100 yards. Having shot hundreds of .25 moa groups or smaller at 100 yards, with my rifles and winning more than one 800 yard match without ever cleaning the 5" X ring proves that.
Meassure groups is measure edge to edge the hole, subtract the bullet diameter and then dived by 1.047. That will give you true MOA of a group. Thats how you get group size smaller than diamter of bullet.
Getting wrapped around axle on tolerences. Put ego aside. Its more about how the rifles shoot and the groups have been proven time and time again. Tac Ops rifles are the most accurate rifles with factory ammo I have ever shot. This is hardly news outside here. I would glady take a bet on the rifle being able to do so again, if the money was right. LOL
On Remington recoil lugs being reground, not true he makes his own lug and hardens it. Its much tougher than a factory lug. Its all part of his process.
His .25 moa is the guarantee of what the rifle with federal 168 grain match is mechanically capable of at 100 yards, for three shot groups. He takes the rifles out and shoots the groups himself and provided test targets to prove what his rifle will do. NorCal Precision used to offer the same guarantee and once in awhile I ould shoot a rifle that a NorCal Customer would say would not shoot well. I think over a few years I shot 7 or 8 of these rifles and found it was the guy who could not shoot, not the rifle. NorCal retired last year.
Shooting sub .50 moa at 800 yards with 308 is far harder than .25 moa at 100 yards. You run into a host of more problems at 800 yards than at 100 yards. Having shot hundreds of .25 moa groups or smaller at 100 yards, with my rifles and winning more than one 800 yard match without ever cleaning the 5" X ring proves that.
Meassure groups is measure edge to edge the hole, subtract the bullet diameter and then dived by 1.047. That will give you true MOA of a group. Thats how you get group size smaller than diamter of bullet.
Getting wrapped around axle on tolerences. Put ego aside. Its more about how the rifles shoot and the groups have been proven time and time again. Tac Ops rifles are the most accurate rifles with factory ammo I have ever shot. This is hardly news outside here. I would glady take a bet on the rifle being able to do so again, if the money was right. LOL
You have to give the man credit, He sure seems able to back his accuracy claims, tolerances aside it's the holes in the paper that count!
I believe Clay chambers on a Romi M17 combination lathe.
I hear things like laser metrology, 50 gagillionths and so on... but to actually "prove" it is an another thing. I'm not calling anybody a liar but to work within 50 millionths would certainly need some rigid tooling to avoid any flex. Tac Ops are nice though.
Yes he's using a Romi M17, he supposedly has spent alot of $$ on special measuring tools so he could prove his chamber runout, I can't say for sure that these smith's hold these tolerances ...but it is interesting, as you can never have to much accuracy!
I'd think shooting hundreds of 5 shot .25 moa groups at 100 yards I'd be thinking about competing in benchrest for sure.
Rost, I shot little bitty groups, at 100-200 yards, every week for over twenty years proving my police sniper abilities when I was active. It frankly bored me after awhile. That why I compete in F TR. It is hard as hell to shoot sub .50 moa 15-20 rds groups from 600-1000 yards, so that is where I now spend my time shooting. Like I said before .50 moa at distance is harder than .25 moa up close if you have right equipment.
Eddie, My comments of this not being new outside this website are frankly, this has been hashed and rehashed over and over again for last ten years that I know of. Not a judgement you guys are just late to the party. It was not a slag. Many here have never heard of my slings either but that has not stopped me from selling many thousands to the US Military either. Mikes work around HRT type teams is well known and respected. He is the armorer for LASD SEB ( one of the premiere HRT Teams in nation) I hardly ever see a Police Sniper class out here that does not have one or more of Mike's rifles in it. They all shoot well from what I have seen.
I have no vested interest in TacOps what so ever. I paid retail for my one and only TacOps rifle. I only wrote here to give first hand results by someone who actually owns a TacOps rifle. My world has that bit of information weighing a bit heavier than speculation.
You know all he has to do is run the .00005 indicator into the chamber before taking it out of the lathe. Even a hack chambering in the headstock with good bearings will show no runout. A bad setup may make a chamber that is larger at the base, but not runout. If you have any machinest experience, tell me how to make an out of round chamber. Butch
pooch, That is correct. I posted that my smallest was .152 at 200yds. in a registered match. Hopefully you didn't read that I did that in the post. Read it again. Butch
You know all he has to do is run the .00005 indicator into the chamber before taking it out of the lathe. Even a hack chambering in the headstock with good bearings will show no runout. A bad setup may make a chamber that is larger at the base, but not runout. If you have any machinest experience, tell me how to make an out of round chamber. Butch
Butch I have zero machinest experience, I just find these discussions interesting, I have one ? is 50 millioths 1/2 of .0001
You know all he has to do is run the .00005 indicator into the chamber before taking it out of the lathe. Even a hack chambering in the headstock with good bearings will show no runout. A bad setup may make a chamber that is larger at the base, but not runout. If you have any machinest experience, tell me how to make an out of round chamber. Butch
Yes but I bet you can't make hundreds of rifles that shoot sub-.25MOA with FGMM 168gr ammo...
Yes but I bet you can't make hundreds of rifles that shoot sub-.25MOA with FGMM 168gr ammo...
[/quote]
Now here is something I wish would not happen. The bigger dick syndrom. Like I said lets leave egos out of it.
Butch and others I want you to think about this from a BR perspective. Imagine doing everything you can to a Remington 700 SA action to make it more accurate. Then have a chamber reamer mader for a BR type fit of Federal 168 grain ammo. Hold all tolerences as close as humanly possible. Think about instead of bring case, neck and bullet to be perfect match for bbl/chamber, make the bbl/chamber a perfect match for the ammo.
Then bed perfectly, finish perfectly and I bet you get one mighty fine shooting rifle.
Butch did not mean in any way to play down BR Shooting, I just prefer long range. BR develops many great things for shooting sports
Lets see pensword. I can only shoot a couple at a time and only do work for myself. There are better ways for me to make my money, but I can build an accurate rifle. There is a lot of BS being thrown about here. What do you consider a 1/4"MOA rifle? 3 shot group? one group? In a tunnel? Unlimited time limit? I think it needs to be decided before it is argued further. Butch
Mike, You are correct, it should shoot well.I don't think that I posted anywhere that I could build a better rifle than anybody. I can build a very good one though. Ackleyfan you are correct. Butch
PS I have to go to the Dairy Queen. I'm cooking tonight.Then it is Texas Rangers Baseball. Check with you in an hour.
Butch the guarantee as told to me was 3 shot group under .25 moa at 100 yards. He provided three groups under that size with my rifle. The five shot group was my idea as a test and is not what his guarantee to me was. As I said before TacOps market is mostly LE and most qualification tests for LE have historically been three shot groups. When I went to the old traveling FBI School it was a 1 moa group requirred to pass to 300 yards. Back in the day that was very hard because equipment sucked.
Mike, One of my shooting partners is a sniper with the BATF. When he goes to the range with me he puts up a target of a mans head. He puts one bullet in the forehead and puts his rifle up. He uses FGMM Ammo. We play with whatever then. Butch
Then you understand the put up two targets on top of each other. Shoot the group, file one target in admin file and keep one target for personal records stuff. LOL
I actually used to do two sets. One for cold bore shot and then second for group so I could prove how rifle performed after cold bore round.
Dating myself but my second rifle issued ( early 1980s) was actually built by Gale Mcmillan, an M40 in a smear stock, with original and brand new at the time Leupold Ultra Scope. My first was off shelf Remington with 6x ART ( POS) scope. That M40 was soo much better than anything else I shot against it simply was not fair. This TacOps is the latest and most accurate with factory ammo, in a line of great sniper rifles I have owned
You may find this funny but TacOps has not built my F TR rifles as I need a rifle build for a different purpose to shoot special ammo that is no where near sami specs ( 155s at 3050fps)
No speculation here, I know of your products and your slings. In fact I have had a couple of your slings and think they are absolutely top notch and I'm sure will order from you again sometime in the future.
I have also handled a Tac Ops 308 and they are very nice. Are there any other smiths out there that produce a "tactical" rifle geared toward HRT teams that shoot as good Mike's. Absolutely with out a doubt. GAP,APA,KMW and the list goes on. I would have to believe Eric Reid can build a stick that would shoot as well too (but he's working for the Corps. again).
Bottom line is if a capable smith (there are a bunch out there) builds a purpose weapon with a good barrel, and uses a reamer that has been ground to tight specs for a specific ammo such as FGMM 168, good stock, bedding and so on. Asemble this together correctly, then shooting some .25 MOA three shot groups is no great feat.
I know I have shot an awful lot of 3 shot groups that were one hole only to be opened up on the 4th or 5th shot to lets say .3 to .4ish
I'm glad to hear that a lot of Mike's rifles are used out there where you are at, they should keep the money local. Mike's got to pay for that Beverly Hills address.LOL
No speculation here, I know of your products and your slings. In fact I have had a couple of your slings and think they are absolutely top notch and I'm sure will order from you again sometime in the future.
I have also handled a Tac Ops 308 and they are very nice. Are there any other smiths out there that produce a "tactical" rifle geared toward HRT teams that shoot as good Mike's. Absolutely with out a doubt. GAP,APA,KMW and the list goes on. I would have to believe Eric Reid can build a stick that would shoot as well too (but he's working for the Corps. again).
Bottom line is if a capable smith (there are a bunch out there) builds a purpose weapon with a good barrel, and uses a reamer that has been ground to tight specs for a specific ammo such as FGMM 168, good stock, bedding and so on. Asemble this together correctly, then shooting some .25 MOA three shot groups is no great feat.
I know I have shot an awful lot of 3 shot groups that were one hole only to be opened up on the 4th or 5th shot to lets say .3 to .4ish
I'm glad to hear that a lot of Mike's rifles are used out there where you are at, they should keep the money local. Mike's got to pay for that Beverly Hills address.LOL
Yes but I bet you can't make hundreds of rifles that shoot sub-.25MOA with FGMM 168gr ammo...
Now here is something I wish would not happen. The bigger dick syndrom. Like I said lets leave egos out of it.
Butch and others I want you to think about this from a BR perspective. Imagine doing everything you can to a Remington 700 SA action to make it more accurate. Then have a chamber reamer mader for a BR type fit of Federal 168 grain ammo. Hold all tolerences as close as humanly possible. Think about instead of bring case, neck and bullet to be perfect match for bbl/chamber, make the bbl/chamber a perfect match for the ammo.
Then bed perfectly, finish perfectly and I bet you get one mighty fine shooting rifle.
Butch did not mean in any way to play down BR Shooting, I just prefer long range. BR develops many great things for shooting sports [/quote]
My comment wasn't about whose dick is bigger, but rather the bigger picture. Holding a tolerance in an instance is one thing, holding it through out a build, again and again, is something else. I was encouraging comparisons to be made on a like for like basis.
People will believe what they will. Some will be more excited about what's possible rather than what's perceived to be impossible. All I know is I'm glad I picked up the phone and called MikeR - my Tango's at Birdsong's and will be in my hands shortly. That's as big as they come!
I hate when these things become which is best threads because you can not call anyone brand "Best"
I have many rifles:
Tacops is most accurate with factory ammo and prettiest rifle I own.
My GAP F TR is the most accurate rifle I have ever shot, with one hole groups of 10-20 rds at 100 yards. These are my hand loads and here is catch, I told GAP what length ammo and bullet and they cut chanber exactly for that round. Same chamber specs as last F TR rifle they built me. Thats great work.
Eric Reid GAP M40A3 is just plain work of art to be used in mud and sand and shoots well enough to have taken second place in 1000 yard event in a US F TR National Match. It will shoot any ammo on market and never fail.
My run to the hills sniper rifle is my GAP TIS Special rifle because it does what I asked it to do, shoot sub .50 moa, with 22" bbl and weigh in at 10lbs with NXS 3.5-15x50 scope on it. It will shoot sub .25 moa groups with hand loads but I wanted this with a looser chamber so it could be full of crud and still take a target out.
Now any of the mentioned smiths can do work that shoots sub .25 moa but right now TacOps is only one I know that guarantees every single rifle he makes to do so.
I rank everyone of those rifles best in class because they where purposely built to do what they do best.
This thread started as if the .25 moa guarantee was real from TacOps and I am here to say yes it is.
Ok lets let mike go for a page or two. Does anyone have experience with the link I threw up. quarterminutemagnum.com?
"Quarter Minute Magnums
Reasonably priced custom rifles for serious shooters who worship at the altar of extreme accuracy. Our �Select� rifles are guaranteed to shoot one inch groups � at 400 yards! Targets and load data supplied with every rifle."
I dont have any experience with them at all, simply stumbled across them while look for something else.
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