Hello
I recently picked up a Rare Bird. I was in one of our local guns shops and spotted a neat mauser action rifle and asked to see it. My suspicions were spot on, as it was Indeed a Rare H&R rifle Imported by Sako. These rifles were made in the early 1960's time span and sent to H&R The trigger and actions are made by Sako and the barrels were made by Douglas custom barrels. The stocks were [bleep] and checkered at the H&R Factory by some in house older woman there. The Triiger assembly is fully adjstable for creep and pull and is stamped Made in Finland. There were very few of these made and in my 35 Plus years of gun shows from the East to West coast and after going though hundrededs of Gun shops I have only seen one other like this. This one is chambered in .308 Winchester and it is a pure tack driver as shown with the sight in Target I shot at the 100 Yard line yesterday with it. The final hits were Four in the Ten ring smaller than a dime using some Basic Federal Power shock factory ammo. I can't wait to start hand loading for this after seeing what it would do with just factory ammo. I will be taking it afield this weekend for our opener of Our Gun season for Deer...Regards, TheGeneral

General-

With all due respect... I see by your photos that your rifle is stamped FN-Made in Belgium! I'm wondering when SAKO made actions in Belgium?

Does yours have the stamp on the top of the chamber: H&R with the silhouette of a lion?

I also own one in .308 Win. Mine is also stamped "308 Win - UltraRifled on the right side of the barrel. And the same stamp as yours on the left side: Harrington and Richardson, Inc. Ultra Bolt Action .

Mine is stamped on the action: Fab Nat. D'Armes De Gurre Herstal-Belgique . I recently sold an identical one in .30-06...

Grasshopper

Hello Grasshopper
Good Eye you have there. Yes, I have the H&R stamp on top of the action with the Lion but our gun's are from a different time span, let me explain here...I was recently contacted by a former sales employee of H&R that worked there when they made up and sold these and here is what he had to say about them. This should clear up any questions you may have and I suspect yours is the second edition H&R that he speaks of.There is No Stamp Fab Nat. D'Armes De Gurre Herstal-Belgique she is a True Sako. Regards, TheGeneral






I worked for H&R back in the early to late 1960's time span when they made up and Marketed these rifles. I can tell you that Your Ultra sounds like it was one of the rifles built on a Sako (Made in Finland - push feed) action. H&R bought the actions, used Fajen stocks (farmed out checkering to a couple of local ladies) and used Douglas custom Pencil style sporter barrels. I had a Sako Ultra Mannlicher-stocked 7 mm Remington Magnum on loan from the factory. Handsome gun if you like the extreme stock styling. Dumb chambering - gun was a 20" carbine. Loud as hell! Shortly before I started working for them, the deal with Sako for the actions fell through, and H&R started using the Yugoslavian Zavasta Mauser ( true '98 actions.) Your gun is far superior, at least as far as the action is concencerned. All these guns were virtually custom made at H&R, and total production of all Ultras was very low. They were built in small batches and usually sat in inventory until an order came in. Personally never cared for the styling of the wood, and in 1980 - I think - they came out with an additional "Classic" model. These guns didn't last long because H&R went belly up in the early 80's. Hope this is of some help.

General, no disrespect, but, your rifle is indeed built on a commercial FN (Belgian Made) CONTROL feed action. Not a SAKO pushfeed action.

It is a very fine piece. Thanks for sharing.

Well Far it from me to be an Expert here, but I took the words of the main sales agent for H&R above that I quoted with to be true....TheGeneral.

Gen., I don't care what anyone says you found a real SLEEPER. That gun looks to be mint... Very nice gun you got your hands on.The blue is nicer then most guns of today, someone took lots of pride in the workmanship. The stock is fine also. Bless those ol ladies hearts on the ckeckerin. Today it would be 2 8yr. olds from who knows where. H&R made some quality guns with good steel and stock work. I can't remember but my first gun was a single shot 16ga. either H&R or Iver Johnson my dad gave. Hunted everything with it. Anyways you got yourself a fine rifle, Good Luck....later

Hello Bandhunter
I certainly Appreciate your kind words. I am not here to have a Pissin Match over what's what with this rifle I do Know it shoots and is a custom made low production piece of day's gone by. Yesterday I was shooting next to a guy with one of the New Remingtons and he was so Taken with my gun I asked if he would like to fire it ? He took it into his Lead sled and fired off a round and looked like a Deer in the headlights when the report was heard afterward's. I asked him what was wrong, and he said he was hardly ready for it to go off. I shared with him that I Like Light triggers and this gun has a fully adjustable trigger of which I adjusted to around 2 Pounds before coming that day. He shook his head and said it was sad to see what Pure Garbage we were manufacturing here in the states any more, with The Lawers involved and the Manufacturing companies attitude of getting the day's production figures at an all time high, He was even more sick when I told him what I had paid for this rifle as it was far less than he had in his Remington...It seems any more no Matter what we pick up to purchase, that it has been branded "Made in China". This rifle is an example of day's gone by when we Americans demanded nothing but the very best for our hunting Purposes... and that is why it came home with me.... Regards, TheGeneral

I posted this on the other forum about this rifle. Very fine rifle but definitely an FN Mauser action. Be proud of it and enjoy your purchase.

Nice! Sweet rifle!

Sako did ship actions to FN that Browning used (short actions) because Browning only used long actions at the time. This action is a FN action, not made by Sako. Sako never made actions in Belgium, only sent em there.

Don't know if H&R ever used Sako actions, or not. I do know Browning and Ithaca (another sleeper rifle to watch out for)did on their rifles.

General,

Still meaning no disrespect.... But in your third photo... that YOU posted.... On the left side of the receiver it clearly shows "FN Made in Belgium". YOUR rifle and YOUR post was what I was referring to... Was I perhaps, the only one here who noticed this?

Or perhaps did you accidently post a pic of a different rifle?

Thus my question remains unanswered...

I'm NOT saying that H&R did not use Sako actions, because I do know that they did. If fact, all the ones I have seen (except one) were short actions with .222/.223 Rem based cartridges. I THINK they also made some in .243 Win and .308 Win. but have never actually seen one... But I have SEEN at least one in a long action. Not sure whether it was a .270 or .30/06..

GH

I think there is some info missing above... and some that is wrong.

Sako never used Zavasta (sp) actions.

They did, however, use FN made Mauser actions in the 1950's before they started making their own large actions (they were making their small actions by then though).

If you take your rifle apart, I think you will find the trigger stamped Made in Finland.

Some of these rifles were imported to the USA from Finland, so it is easy to understand how there is some confusion about a rifle made in Finland using a Belgian action which was later exported to the US...

I tried to find a picture, but it is not great and looks like any other Mauser actioned rifle of the period -- it does not show the stamping or the left side of the rifle. You can, however read about Sako using FN actions HERE.

John

Here are two H&R rifles made on Sako actions:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=260715078

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=260885853

Also, here is another one in .243 made on an FN action, and so noted...

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=260770543

And another in .300 Win Mag.

http://www.gunsinternational.com/Harrington-Richardson-300-Win-Mag-Ultra-Rifle.cfm?gun_id=100206717

And another in mm Rem Mag:

http://www.gunsinternational.com/Harrington-Richardson-Model-301.cfm?gun_id=100209136

John,

I think I see where some of the confusion is coming from on this thread. I removed the stock from my rifle and it is indeed stamped "Finland" on the right side of the trigger partially concealed by the safety...

I was aware that SAKO used FN actions for rifles prior to building their own action... This is a real confusing subject. According to the Blue Book of Gun Values the H&R Ultra 300 rifles were built on FN actions from 1965-72, Sako actions (Presumably the L-61R) from 1973-'77, and Zastava (Mark X) actions from 1978-1983. (Harrington & Richardson ceased operations on Jan 24, 1986)

Also according to the BBofGV, Sako used FN Mauser long actions from 1951-1960. Sako intorduced their L-61R in 1962. Thus if the H&R "ULTRA" rifles were not built until 1965, why was SAKO furnishing H&R with FN actions? Unless they were merely using up leftover actions...

Trust me, I'm NOT trying to get into a pi$$ing match with anyone, just merely trying to ascertain the true facts...

GH

Grasshopper,

The use of the Zastava actions by Sako is news to me but I have read many of your posts -- and if you say so that is enough for me.

I live in Sweden where Sakos are common but I have only seen the old FN actions, never a Zastava. Maybe more (or all?) of the Zastavas made it to other markets than Scandinavia?

Interesting indeed -- and no worry about a pissing match. I try to post only on stuff that I actually know something about, but I can be wrong (just ask any of my ex-girlfriends!).

John

John,

ALL of my ex-girlfriends think I was VERY wrong...

GeneralStuart and all,

I recently helped a good friend trade into a gorgeous little 223 rifle that looks a lot like the one in the pictures. It, too is a H&R Ultrarifle but has a SAKO L-461 action as its heart. Another real sweetie. H&R contracted with several companies over the years to make thier rifles and or actions and while the one in the photos is definately an FN Mauser (I have one of those myself) in my opinion that makes it a BETTER rifle than if it had a Sako action from that same era in that it is a Controlled round feed fixed ejector Belgian made unit that might be the best action ever milled by any factory anywhere at any time.

As to who made the barrel, trigger and other parts, I do not know but if this rifle were mine (wish it WAS!) I simply would not care. Regardless of where the components came from that is one of the nicest looking and best made factory rifles ever made, period. Congratulations on a wonderful find and on a terrific shooting rifle. May you get much blood on it in the days to come, and may you remeber me in your will!

MARK

As Safariman already pointed out this is a Controlled Round Feed action not a "push feed" action as stated by your expert. I'd send him pictures of your rifle from the angles you have taken. I'm sure he can tell you more about the rifle. From what I've been able to find out this morning doing research is that the trigger assembly and bottom metal could have came from Sako.

I have an FN action just like it, and it definately was made in Belgium.

The trigger on mine is made in Finland. I bought this action straight from Firearms International, one of the importers of these actions in the 50s and 60s.

Over the years, several companies imported these actions, and complete rifles. Firearms International was one company. ABU Garcia was another, and I think there were others. These same companies also imported complete Sako rifles and actions, and a line of double barreled shotguns. I think the shotguns were something called Zepther, or something like that.

I do know that FN used Sako triggers on the Supreme 400 FN action. That is what mine is. What I didn't know was that Sako used FN Belgium made Mauser on some of their rifles, as this one is. All Sako rifles I have seen used Sako actions. Firearms International also imported Sako actions to be used on custom guns.

During this time period, H&R, Sears, Roebuck, I think Ithica, and a company called Winslow, and Weatherby used FN actions actions before they developed their own.

I don't know if FN made the complete rifles for H&R, Sears, Ithica and others, or just sold the actions to these companies, who barreled and stocked the rifles, and sold them under their name.

IIRC, some of these same companies, (H&R), also marketed a line of rifles using the Sako actions. Actions like the Vixon, I think. I don't know if these were complete rifles made by Sako, from Sako parts, or if they were actions and triggers sold to companies like H&R, who finished the rifles.

To the best of my knowledge, Firearms International imported complete FN rifles chambered in .308 Norma and .358 Norma, the only factory rifles produced in these two calibers.

Hello Grasshopper
I looked at all of those rifle links you supplied and they all have a different looking bolt than mine. My Handle is flat faced on the top and the bolt looks far different than the ones in your response. I don't know what the Hell I have got, But I can tell you it shoots and shoots well. Now, My trigger is clearly stamed "Made in Finland" so I assume that is Sako ? The Made in Belgum stamp is there on the back side of the reciever but the lighter looking stamp ahead of it is The H&R Trade Mark stamp Not the FN stamp's shown on other actions. Hell, That all I know and it shoots wicked small groups with Factory Trash ammo & I can't want to start hand loading for it... TheGeneral

General,

Thanks for clarifying that. After I took a 2nd look, I can see now that it's the H&R logo. I'll try to get a pic of the left side of my action soon, so you can see how mine differs from yours.

In response to 1-7: Firearms Int'l was not the only one to furnish rifles in .308 Norma and .358 Norms. I have seen Browning FN Safari's so chambered, and also the Voere 2165. I once owned a Voere 2165 in .308 Norma and also a Firearms Int'l "Muscateer" in .308 Norma.

GH

Gen., After lookin at your post I went out took my (STAMPED REMINGTON).300RUM to club to check sightin for bear season for rifle opens tomorrow. Between shots as lookin at my SS 700 Rem. I thought of your rifle and how happy you seem over your find. I had some time so looked again at your thred? Why is it guys can't share in your found joy?? Why do guys like to rip down your excitement? You have a real nice gun, weather from Finland or Belgum most real gun guys would love to have it, and that's where the problem stems. You are the proud owner of a fine H&R/Sako, good shootin....later

Yes it is a very desirable rifle that most of us would like to own. As stated we are all pretty sure that is an FN action and the trigger and trigger guard is Sako. Were they assembled in Finland or were the assembled elswhere, that is what I would like to know? Since I have no clue as to the history of H&R bolt actions.

I have no doubt as well that the General's H&R expert knows what he is talking about. However, I don't believe the expert had all the information he needed to tell the full story of the production of this rifle. I really feel that the General should send the pictures to his expert.

General, I would sure like to see a good close up of the markings on the receiver. I took the photo below:



I then blew it up as large as I thought I could and not distort the image too bad.



I know you said it is and H&R logo but it sure appears to look very similar to the FN logo.



I'm anxiously awaiting more pictures on how well this rifle shoots.

You got it wrong. We are into rifles, and a new case study is more data, more knowledge. We are all into the find! Ever watch history detectives on PBS? We are passionate about guns!

I don't dought you all have intrest in guns just seems alittle of pushin some buttons. I once bought an Ithica/Sako in .243 and did hunt and take a buck with it. I didn't want the gun much to fancy for me, it had a rose wood forarm tip palm swell lots of checkerin. The action was an L somethin sweet, smooth as silk. I got the gun in a trade in deal and knew I'ed unload it to get what I really wanted. I'm a Remington guy in my heart. Anyways you get some guns stuck in your head and you just gotta get it... I like the Gens. gun and glad he found it. I know how it is when your eyes catch itBAM that's the one, like a woman, or a good dog. No like a good dog!!! Maybe the H&R logo is unclear to us in picture but it sure sounds like Gen. knows what he has and that's good enough for me....later

The trigger on your FN action was a Sako made in Finland.

The Ithica rifle was a Tikka from Finland though -very high quality .

Glenn

This is pretty silly. Arguing about an obvious and plainly marked FN action. It is what it is. The guy can be joyful as all getout, but no matter how badly he wants it to be a Sako and regardless of what some "expert" (?!) might have said.....it isn't. The Ithaca LSA55 wasn't a Sako either.....a Tikka, made before they ever became part of Sako.

I have owned two H&R Ultra Rifles, one was a bull barrel
22-250, the other a sporter weight in 270.

Your post is in itself a case in point... Likely to you a gun is merely a tool... As SakoLuvr said; to many of us a guns is a study.

Now like your post, you stated you had an Ithica/Sako . Now if Ithaca ever had a marketing agreement with SAKO, it's sure news to me. Now just because a rifle is stamped "Made in Finland" does not mean it's a SAKO! If you had bothered to research, you'd have found that Ithaca did indeed import a rifle from Finland made by Oy Tikkakoski of Tikkakoski, Finland (Commonly called just: TIKKA). It was called the model: LSA-55 for the short action and LSA-65 for the long action. They were imported from 1969 to 1977. It was NOT a Sako because OY Tikkakoski did not sell out to SAKO until 1989 (According to the Blue Book of Gun Valuse.) (BTW, from your description it would seem that yours was a LSA-55 Deluxe; which is/was fairly rare. I've never seen but one.)

Now to a lot of folks the above is a minor point. But to folks like Sakoluvr, myself and others... It is important! Because we care about facts, and we care about history! And we really DO NOT like to see folks putting forth false information.

I am very happy for General Stuart. I have a rifle that is very similar to his but slightly different. I care about the differences and I want to KNOW why! I know it is minutia, but many of rifle loonies just really CARE. I contacted the General by PM today, and we discussed it. We are both confused, but trust me, those of us who really care, will likely keep digging until we KNOW!

Meaning to offense to you, but it just eats at some of us until we find out.

GH

General,
it is a fine rifle, may I inquire what you "stole" it for? It sounds like the shop you bought it at did not know its value and uniqness.

i like that rifle.

nice looking, and a great shooter.

enjoy it.

Ok G h, maybe my rifle was as you say. All I know or can remember is the gunshop said it was made by Sako and the action sure looked like it and like I said a very fine action it was. Gun's are not just a tool to me for sure. I do lean towards Rems. , Ruger's. and Mod.70's. As we speak I'm havein a build goin on on a 700 short action made in 1981. I'm a sucker for a fine gun, but bottom line is it's a tool to hunt with. I loved the varis 1903 and 03a3's that have been built on to become beautiful, I've also had a beautiful Mouser Belgum built in 25.06 and with this new 6.5 Cmoor/Remington I'm waitin on that I'll post pictures. If I were to worry about history of a guys gun I think I would have my facts all in a row then post my doubt's and correct the misunderstandings. I'm not taken this much further lot's of jumpin the gun so far in this thred.....later

"In response to 1-7: Firearms Int'l was not the only one to furnish rifles in .308 Norma and .358 Norms. I have seen Browning FN Safari's so chambered, and also the Voere 2165. I once owned a Voere 2165 in .308 Norma and also a Firearms Int'l "Muscateer" in .308 Norma."

The Firearms Int'l Muscateer is the one I was thinking about. I could not remember the name of it.

I never knew anyone else made rifles in .308 Norma and .358 Norma. Learn something every day.

I do not understand the controversity concerning this action. With it stamped "FN" and stamped "Made in Belgium," I fail to see how it could be anything else, regardless of who sold it, made it, barreled it and stocked it.

To me, this is lke arguing that a rifle is a 'Remington' when it has 'Winchester' stamped on it in large, plain to read letters.

With that said, my opinion is that it is a fine rifle, built on possibly the best action ever made. I have one almost identical to it, with the barrel stamped "G.R. Douglass" (I think the initials are G.R.) The caliber, 7 MM Weatherby Magnum, is also stamped on the barrel, but, of course, it is not a Weatherby rifle. It is a custom built in 1963. It is a custom, using an FN action.

I would not turn down a similiar rifle stamped 'Sako' "Made in Finland," but I would not refer to it as an FN and made in Belgium.

It's amazing to me how many folks think just because a rifle says: .243 Win , that the gun is a Winchester. Many folks confuse cartridge nomenclature with rifle manufacturer...

GH

General Stuart,

I've been anxiously awaiting pics of tasty animals and said rifle... Any luck?

GH

Dude that there is a beautifully done rifle from the days when makers really took the time and craftsmanship to make 'em right. I love it.

I, along w/ Ed, am anxious to hear about the game you've taken w/ it this fall.

Hello Grasshopper
Nothing Yet all have been Bald like me, Just Does. I am onto a Fresh scrape though and heard him grunt last weekend. Tomorrow may be his Last Grunt... TheGeneral.

They are cool pieces IMO. A sign of the times with that style stock, old schoolish. Here's one similar.

http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/admin/product_details.php?itemID=45752

The FN action is probably better than anything you own. They are one of my favorites. I ran a gunshop in the late 70's early 80;s and the H&R rifles were available then.

I have always admired those rifles and darn I wish H&R would make them again.
generalstuart, I am very jealous. Very nice find.

Everybody knows damn well that's a JC Higgins trademark

Actually an FN receiver that probably journeyed thru Sako's factory for a trigger and was then exported to H&R where the H&R stamped barrel and stock was added.. There, clear as mud.
I darned fine rifle gun, no matter how you look at it.

g

Hello jstevens
I don't know, I wouldn't be Too Sure about that. I have a S&W rifle that was Imported by Husqvarna of Sweeden that is just as nice and built just as good...Here is that one and it is chambered in 30-06... TheGeneral

I think you meant to say a Husky imported by Smith and Wesson, but WOW.... another GORGEOUS MAuser actioned rifle! I sure hope you are hunting with these! Congrats x 2.

By the way, my first 257 WBY custom build was on a Husky action that started in life as a 30/06 just like yours. Wonderful action and rifle.

All the rifles shown so far are REALLY NIFTY!

Schultz and Larson chambered rifles in both .308 and .358 Norma Mag. Husqvarna chambered the .358 Norma Mag., but curiously, not the .308.