Looking to build a custom rifle. I have a donor rem 700, but I really like an action that "locks the bolt" when the safety is on. It's just a personal preference.

I have been hunting with the NULA and really like the two position three function safety which locks the bolt but you can push down on the safety to work the bolt without putting the safety on fire.

I know ruger, winchester, savage all offer a 3 position safety.

How about the borden actions, stiller actions?

Any modifications for the remington 700?

Shop around for a older M700.
There are a number of years where Rem kept the slot milled under the bolt but bobbed off the lever that sticks up into the slot.
You can buy the trigger parts from NULA to retrofit it to a bolt that has the slot.
Retrofit a Dave Gentry 3 position safe to a m700 or clone.

dave

Take a look at Bighorn actions, you get a lot for your money......AJ is a great guy to talk to and deal with.

Depending on just how much u want to do to a factory 700 action, for a bit more you can step up into a custom action.
There are a # of good actions available.

Anybody know how the safety functions on the Borden's or Stiller actions? Does it lock the bolt handle?

If your asking "when the safety is on the bolt won't lift" then no its not like that on the Stillers.

bat machine or surgeon, although my BAT does not lock the bolt, if my bolt comes open while carrying the thing I would think I would know it, but its never happened.

I know how you feel. I'm left eyed and right shouldered. I carry slung over the right shoulder, putting the bolt right in the kidney, bouncing. It's easy to knock open for me. I've got Blaser, NULA, and Win 70 and they all solve the problem. Back to the question, my only other custom is on a Nesika Bay, and the bolt does NOT lock on safe.
Don

Sorry, what does BAT stand for?

bat machine company if you want the finest reminton 700 clone made, BAT is your action

BAT= Bruce A Thom, the owner

I would say Borden and Defiance have earned a spot up there with BAT also!

It looks like Defiance might build Borden's actions, I know Glenn built them ages ago when he had Nesika Bay--back in the early stages of the "Borden Bumps". It might be something to consider as they allow for easy bolt operation and still give you tight tolerances when the bolt's closed. BAT holds many of his actions to really tight tolerances that might be a concern on a sporter.

I see no reason why Defiance cannot build an action to accomodate your request. They have great service and a great product.

Glenn and Bruce are both well regarded in the world of precision shooting, might just talk to each of them and get a better idea

My Stiller Predator WILL open with the safety on.

John

You might consider a Howa action with a Timney three position safety......aint a custom, but will shoot every bit as accurate if you are using hunting bullets.
Charlie

Jim Borden builds his own actions, Borden bumps were actually Jim's design used by Nesika bay!

alot of people say that, I suppose if you want a tactical rifle that gets sand and dirt in the action, it might be too tight. I don't throw my guns in the dirt and for hunting purposes I see no problem with BAT's remington clones. they spiral flute the bolt which I think helps keep it clear of any gunk that can slow down the bolt.

if you want a bank vault for an action, bat machine is your answer.

+1

Look at the new Shilen action, offers Remington footprint, accepts Remington type triggers, and has Savage style interchangeable barrels, and a floating bolt head. They offer complete rifles, barreled actions and actions. http://www.shilen.com/productsCompleteRifles.html

Otherwise, for 99% of big game and varmint hunting either a Savage Precision Target Action (they sell the actions only, in right bolt/right port, right bolt/left port, or dual port configurations will work fine, so will the Remington 700, XR100, and 40X actions. I haven't seen enough of an accuracy gain in custom actions other than in benchrest competition to justify the cost and replacement parts supply disadvantage. These are boutique manufacturers producing a limited number of pieces that come and go, while the Savage and Remington models are produced in hundreds of thousands and millions.

If the benchrest crowd can use the xtra accuracy a custom action offers than a hunting rifle to can benefit, my custom actions are way more consistant accuracy wise than my 700's...

savages seem to shoot very well but are uglier than a mud fence...YMMV

If the remington is blueprinted theyre is not a nickels worth of diff! Save you money and buy good scopes.

Rick,
I agree, but it cost much more to bring a Remington to the same as a custom and the resale is much worse.

I dont sell-em! 400 bucks for a r700 plus 200 for blueprint. You cant buy a custom 600.00.

I have both and I'm not buying it, and $200 will get you a basic bluprint, but still won't have more resale value...custom actions offer tighter and straighter tolerences,some come with 1 pc bolts, better fire control systems including guided fireing pins which are sized perfectly for the hole in the bolt face, scope mounting holes that are aligned with the center line of the bore, and some offer 8-40 screw holes for added strength, try and have all the bells and whistles added to a 700 and see how close they are to a custom ....you get what you pay for!

This why theyre are different colored woman. We all like something diff. I have had or have all that have been spoke about and will spend the extra on a scope or stock. After looking back i have not had a bighorn or even saw one. I have not had a new DGA

Your right..people need to use what makes them happy, it's all fun and games any way!

Using a 700 nowadays makes about as much since as building off a military mauser

pierce is another

That's a bit harsh.....

200 clams is a bit cheap for a blueprint. I spent that much to have the bolt double sleeved and the raceway reamed. Add a pinned recoil lug, firing pin bushing, lugs and bolt face finished, cost $422. A complete blueprint which includes single point machining the action threads and other niceties runs $560. At least from the smith I use.

Resale value is a non-argument. One doesn't buy a tool based on resale value, at least I don't. Most custom rifles won't return the investment down the road, they are just too specialized with a correspondingly smaller market. For example, I always laugh when someone mentions resale or trade-in value of a used truck as a buying recommendation. My previous two trucks lasted 35 years (I still own and use it) and 24 years before it burned up on the freeway. I won't mention the 32 year old Honda CIVIC in the garage - it still runs like a top. My first Remington 700 blueprint was done on my oldest action that was early 1970's vintage on its third barrel. It shoots .247" -.260" groups.

All my Remington and Savage action based rifles are capable of sub-.5" groups, most running .25". To go beyond this performance level consistently would require an escalating cost per .1" of increased accuracy potential, something not necessary for varmint hunting. I shoot beside an old benchrest competitor with a custom built Remington XR100 action rifle in .222 Remington that shoots consistently in the .1's. Not bad for a discontinued rifle action that was once the basis of the XP100 pistol.

So, it all depends on what you want, and how you want to get there. I still might pick up one of those Shilen actions though.

Any of these 3:

BAT
Surgeon
Defiance Machine

MOST custom mfg make good actions.

Had Stiller that did fine, have Bordens that I really like...and yes, had many 700s and 7 in custom as well as a Ruger #1 that shot in the 1s.....

I agree w/Ackley, I like Clones over Clowns..

There are more reasons than purely accuracy when I choose one...

Wow someone mentioned spending up to $560 on action work to a 700? What could one do to a 700 action to run up a bill like that.

If you bring up a 700 to custom specs you can spend that kind of money.

Guess I'm a simple kind of guy cause if I were building a hunting rifle I'd most likely go the 700 route. I remember many years ago having a conversation with one of the guys up at Hart Barrels and long story short, I asked why they preferred to use 700's so much and the response was "cause they're so easy to make 1/2 inch guns outta"....He was a funny guy too cause of course I asked about an accuracy "guaranty" ? He paused for a second and said "well how do I know if you can shoot a 1/2 inch group..." We both laughed and I've been using them ever since.

I think a 700 will do 95% of the people just fine. I have never had a hunting rifle shoot .25 consistenly. I due have some that will shoot half inch. I have also never saw any of the customs above on a bench rest line except some sleeved 700's. Money and the sky is the limit on custom guns. If your buying and building one to make money or even get your money back your pissing in the wind! I have never bushed any bolt faces or had the rails played with so i am sure its more money. Theyre is a reason why most new customs are built around a 700. You get what you pay for it just how much do you want to spend. Why shoot nightforce when you can have s&b its only another 1500.00. I never thought i was handi-capped because of my actions.

When my bolt handle broke off on one, I forever lost 100% confidence in a Remington, and will not use them for a serious use hunting rifle. Just me.

However rare something is, when it is You that is affected, then you are 100% of a statistic.

Confidence in reliability and re-sale value are both important to me.

I understand what you are saying and seeing how it actually happened to you I'd most likely feel the same way. The flip side is if anyone spends enough time here at the Campfire, you'd be hard pressed to find a brand that's gone unscathed. I've heard stories of Winchester's crappy quality control, MIM extractors that need (or should be) replaced by one of about only 5 gunsmith's on the planet, heat treat issues...Kimber's accuracy woes....Sako/Tikka exploding barrels, Remington bolt handles and triggers....that's just a snap shot off the top of my head

Many years ago I got tired of the typical Accuracy I was getting with Varmint Rifles . Talked to many Gunsmiths and got a lot of advice . Bought a used Rem 700 cheap ( I was told the original PSS Rifles had BDL wood ) . Accuracy was lousy . Bought a Hart Bbl. and had a great Gunsmith ( Mr. Berger in Ohio now retired ) do his magic . Everything cost me about $600 ( I know them days are gone ) . Anyway , I wanted a 223 which would Group 4 shots / 100 Yards / no wind under 0.5 inches , and the Gunsmith said no problem . The Rifle did considerably better... mostly in the 2s and 3s , and still does less than 0.5 surprisingly after more than 10,000 rounds in the Prairie Dog Fields . I am happy ! However , somewhere down the line is a BAT with my name on it . I'm even getting used to synthetic Stocks ! You pays your money , and takes your pick that's why they have vanilla and chocolate .

Here's what's possible from a non-custom Husky actioned, Hart Barrelled and McMillan stocked 06. Not saying this is typical accuracy. Yes, that's 5 shots there.

Confidence is a great reason to spend more money on a rifle. I had a custom pre-64 70 that shot great one of the most accuarte rifles i have ever owned. Over two season's i made several bad shots and done a little missing. Lost confidence is the gun, had to sender down the road. I killed several boone goats w/it and several 50 class whitetails. I would have never trusted it again. I guess the main thing is a guy doesnt have to spend 1000.00+ on a custom action to get good accuarcy

How many of those custom Rem clone actions do you own that have one piece bolt assemblies...?


As far as I can determine, they all have braised on bolt handles just like the Remington.

Defiance and surgeon have 1 pc handles as do Bordens more expensive Rimrock actions the rest are brazed on handles.

Guessing tho that the guy doing the work has a touch more attention to detail and there's a larger emphasis on a quality outcome versus production number/crank out.

That's good to know.

I was pretty shocked to find out the the McMillan G30 actions for example had brazed on handles.

Just thinking that the most likely cause of Remington bolt handle issues is not necessarily HOW they're put on but HOW WELL it's done.

Those other custom manufacturers charge a premium price and for that you get a stricter attention to detail. Most likely done by a smaller group of guys who aren't tasked with doing 200 of them a day to a "good enough" standard but doing 20 and all of those need to be perfect/right.

But it could be I'm projecting my own sense of perfection/work ethic on a custom mfg. Dunno. Just saying that at first blush - I'd chalk up the lower numbers of custom action failures, even tho they use the same technique to better execution of said technique.

Whats the number of custom actions combined out there in the field vs Remington 700's ?

be careful because once you have one you want more. mine with integral rail built in is one tank of an action. I can't imagine anything being more stiff than that action.

Imagine a Surgeon!

The newer Stiller Predators now have one piece bolts.

John

I bought a BAT HR today. I don't care that the bolt is soldered on. I expect it to be a superior job of soldering. I've never heard of a problem with their bolt handles, but I have read quite a few qualified opinions stating they are the finest action built.

No doubt about 700s - shoot well when properly assembled, owned many re-barreled, they all shot well.

But, after my 338/06 handle Literally fell off after returning from a Colorado Elk hunt, on the 1st shot at the range, that did it for me.

Sorry, and I won't tell anyone who HAS confidence in their Rem to get rid of it, MOST do fine...but as Teal said above, a custom mfg. simply puts more time and work into getting everything right, just as a custom bbl mfg. does....

No doubt MANY/MOST factory actions and bbls w/tupperware or walnut will get the job done.

Personally, if I seek a new production rifle for serious use, a Howa/Vanguard or Sako will allow me to forget about the potential bolt handle failure.

IF one has a Rem and wants to GUARANTEE they won't have their bolt handle fail as they do on rare occasion, PT&G can replace it and it might be cheap 'insurance' if you are going on an expensive hunt and/or a dangerous game hunt. Just a thought.

But, use whatever you have that is accurate to your expectations and reliable will serve you well.

Those Husky actions are SLICKKKKK, RD - I nearly bought an HVA S&W Mannlicher '06 for re-barrel, could not put it down! And true, all mass produced rifles are not immune to Murphy's Law...

But, OF all, I think the pre-garcia Sako's are the one that I have NEVER heard of ANY failure of any kind...not that there were none, mine did well in all regards. I am sure 95% of other rifle owners of other brands have had good service.

Good hunting to all, enjoy using whatever your choice is, and Merry Christmas to all!

I think pacific tool makes a aftermarket one piece bolt.

Yes, that's Pacific Tool and Gauge above, unless there is another outfit PT?

http://www.pacifictoolandgauge.com/products/parts/remington.htm#bolts

Pierce are TIG welded which isnt the same as silver brazed

TIG (Tungsten Inert Gas)

In TIG welding, a tungsten electrode heats the metal you are welding and gas (most commonly Argon) protects the weld puddle from airborne contaminants. TIG welding produces clean, precise welds on any metal.

TIG welding uses a non-consumable tungsten

Filler metal, when required, is added by hand

Shielding gas protects the weld and tungsten

Produces high quality, clean welds

Welds more metals than any other process


Brazing is a metal-joining process whereby a filler metal is heated above and distributed between two or more close-fitting parts by capillary action. The filler metal is brought slightly above its melting (liquidus) temperature while protected by a suitable atmosphere, usually a flux. It then flows over the base metal (known as wetting) and is then cooled to join the workpieces together. It is similar to soldering, except the temperatures used to melt the filler metal are above 450 �C (842 �F).

All those processes are unnecessary if you send your bolt out to Lee24 Precession Riflesmithing like I did for his 700 bolt fix package. Process, which is proprietary in nature, includes removal of old handle and reattachment and is double sleeved. Price, which includes return shipping, $1800..... (bolt fluting and Sako extractor mod are extra).

Imagine a Surgeon! [/quote] Ackleyfan , are you saying the Surgeon feels as rock solid as a BAT ? I've felt a few BATs and am asking a serious question .Can you elaborate a bit on a comparison ? As concerns Bolt handles , I remember an old friend of mine who was a Gunsmith in Michigan for over 30 years . He bought one of the earliest Coopers , dropped it and off came the handle . I was really shocked , but it did'nt seem to bother him much . This was strictly a Varmint Rifle ...no Big Game trophies involved . He had some discussions with Cooper and they changed their method of attachment at exactly this time , but I can't remember from-what-to-what , but I think it was to some form of welding . My friend never had anymore problems , but he never dropped that Rifle again . He did mention that he had seen a few Remington 700s that had that problem when he was a Gunsmith .

Ackleyfan , are you saying the Surgeon feels as rock solid as a BAT ? I've felt a few BATs and am asking a serious question .Can you elaborate a bit on a comparison ? As concerns Bolt handles , I remember an old friend of mine who was a Gunsmith in Michigan for over 30 years . He bought one of the earliest Coopers , dropped it and off came the handle . I was really shocked , but it did'nt seem to bother him much . This was strictly a Varmint Rifle ...no Big Game trophies involved . He had some discussions with Cooper and they changed their method of attachment at exactly this time , but I can't remember from-what-to-what , but I think it was to some form of welding . My friend never had anymore problems , but he never dropped that Rifle again . He did mention that he had seen a few Remington 700s that had that problem when he was a Gunsmith . [/quote]

A surgeon 591 is as stiff or stiffer than a Bat VRPIC in rigidity, but a surgeon will never feel as nice as a bat, the bolt to race way tolerences and fit and finish are two different worlds!

One thing we all must remember about the whole brazed bolt handle topic is that brazing is generally the strongest method that is used to keep double barreled guns together. Most of them are just silver soldered, and yet I don't see too many double barreled sxs and O/u guns flying apart when fired. Whether it's welding, soldering or brazing- a poorly done job can fail.

The sheer number of m700 actions made since 1962 would dictate that a few would be around that were not done correctly.

$1800 for a bolt fix procedure? Am I reading that correctly? In the end you still have a Remington action for more than a BAT, Surgeon, Stiller, or just about any other custom action. Whats the point?

I spoke with Surgeon a couple days ago. They have 1086's in stock, magnum bolt face and M16 Extractor. I also found a BAT HR available. When I ran this by my 'smith made a similar comment to Ackleyfan's. The Surgeon may be a good action, but it is not a BAT.
My Bat HR, complete with integral 20 MOA rail shipped today. We are sending it back to BAT for the Melonite treatment.

Exactly, and a very good friend of mine. If I wanted a Remington clone this would be it.

I have my bolt handles tigged by Dan Armstrong. www.accu-tig.com. Ship to Alaska and have it back in a week. My 2 BR rifles are Bats and although very nice they are not near as smooth as my Grandson's Stiller Diamondback drop port.
Another Grandson's mod 600 bolt.

It was tigged by Dan Armstrong.

butch,
I have several from that guy in ak.
He does very good work.

dave

Butch - the knob looks like my Alpine and straight also, nice looking. Did you flute it btw? What trigger and bottom metal did you use on that? Nice. Oh, what is the slot in the bolt head? Extractor mod?

RD- Too Funny, maybe I should have kept blue tape in my 'Rifle Medic' box

Jim - true, maybe not alot - but if the one does in your hand - and it's while you are on an expensive hunt or in the outback....it won't be a good day is all I can say.

Re: shotgun bbls, I don't recall the bores being subject the same CUP/PSI 'SHOCK Treatment' that gets sent thru a bolt head...body/handle. It surely matters. I say that b/c my handle was separated upon firing, BEFORE I lifted it, it was Detached....

Just as Brazing may not be a bad process...it's the processING or ProcessOR that is to blame IMHO.

IF it matters (not a metallurgist) - my rifle was a Stainless, but I doubt that was the issue given so many SS models.

Just so you know the guy in AK will tig a m700 handle to.
Once done its not something you would have to worrie about ever again.

dave

No doubt there is more than one out there that would do a fellow proud. Personally I am very happy with my Defiance action. Both the order process and finished product were first rate. That Defiance makes many others "own action" speaks volumes,IMO.
APA gives a pretty good price on their made to spec action. (hint)

As to a polished up 700 vs. a custom comparison there are a lot of "depends" in that equation. But for a all out build there is no comparison,IMO.

$1800 for a reworked 700 action; surely you jest...

I have two defiance.
One on the way.

dave

Not the action........just the bolt. Remember, Lee24 Precision Riflesmithing is the most prestigious gunmaker in the world. He is also the most prestigious bridge builder, civil engineer, pilot, rifle shooter, car designer, aircraft ballistic armour designer, wood smith, hiker, Automation, process design, process control, logistics, ocean shipping, automobile assembly, aerospace manufacturing, medical device R&D, product design, mechanical engineering, civil engineering, chemical, real-time systems, DSP, operating systems development, BIOS, encrypted transactions, EFT, expert systems, AI, robotics, remote control, military AUV, submarine AUV, airborne AUV, mechatronics, large-scale systems integration, imaging, theater C3, software development and program management.

- engineered skyscrapers (mechanical, electrical, plumbing, site drainage, etc), ponds, dams, small bridges, as well as medical devices, computers, cell phones, firearms, tools, farm machinery, military aircraft and automobile components, chemical and polymer plants, and a wide array of other retail products and manufacturing process development. I have worked in 32 states, as well as overseas.

- a consulting engineer who develops, among other things, weapons systems, from hunting rifles to attack helicopters, as well as composite armor to defeat it, from the 9mm handgun to 155mm sabot round.


in his spare time he's fired

-600,000 rounds I have fired in competition and practice

- I included the 45 years of hunting and 400,000 handgun rounds in there.

- I just renewed my hunting license for the 40th year.

- I grew up on a cattle ranch, and had spent 1,000 nights under the stars before I was 21.

- I grew up in the hardwood business, providing veneer grade walnut and oak to the furniture industry. I have been building furniture and gunstocks as a hobby for 35 years.
- I have a shop full of all sorts of walnut, some of it air drying for over 20 years. Having designed 3, 4 and 5-axis CNC machines for woodworking, I have had the opportunity to see and cut a lot of woods.

- BTY, the National Geographic Channel had a 3-part series on one of my projects just recently. We are still adding to it.

-I was asked earlier, in another thread, if I worked for FN, and answered that I was a consultant, had been in the facility, knew engineers, but had never been paid to work for FN (but I have worked for other firearms manufacturers).

-I merely offered to post some pictures of Model 70s manufactured in SC - some taken by me...

Man, that's my guy! Why am I doing my own stuff. Thanks sooo much for the wakeup call RD.

VERY few, and you will pay dearly. It doubled the price of my Defiance to get a one piece bolt.

Borden does not make an action with a true one-piece bolt. His bolt handles are silver brazed on. What is one-piece on his bolts is that the lug end isn't soldered on like a 700.


More bolt handles are broken off in luggage than any other way. Don't leave the bolts in your guns when you travel via commercial airlines. They weren't made to support gorillas banging on them!

Dennis that seems to be the case, must have changed recently as the Rimrocks use to be a true 1 pc handle and bolt body, I guess stiller Defiance and surgeon have that market cornered!

borden rimrock action did at one time have a one piece bolt and bolt knob and took a really long time to make so Jim went to the system he has know.


gene

Personally I'd don't see the necessity for a complete 1 pc. bolt on a hunting rig and certainly not for the paper punchers. For military applications, fine...If the mating surfaces of the bolt body and bolt handle mate perfectly, are prepped right and silver soldered or brazed correctly, they aren't coming off.

Blue taped and brazed....and the military would be good to go!

Don't forget about the Borden "Bumps"..................

Not going to ask how lee24 installs those on your bolts!

RD - I don't doubt that, what the problem for me is, if you grab a mass mfg. rifle - how can you KNOW if it was done right?

I think you will only know when it was not, when it unexpectedly happens to fail, if you are one of the unlucky ones...

I seldom post but this thread caught my attention. For a sporter, I must come down on the side of a older Remington 700 with modest improvements such as squaring the face of the action and bolt and lapping the lugs. Spend your money on a barrel blank (Krieger, Broughten, Brux, etc), a McMillan stock, jewel trigger, and a nice scope. I have several such sporters with these upgrades and they all shoot under 1/2 inch (most are way under). Now I also have guns with custom actions that cost twice what the above-mentioned 700 will cost you (BAT repeater, Nesika Bay, older Shilen DGA etc.) They too will shoot under 1/2 inch. If you go the 700 with an std. accuracy job, you will have $600 in you pocket which will get you a long way toward the completion of your project. Don't forget that the gunsmith is terribly important. Some smiths can't drill a straight hole to save their life. All being said, the most crazy thing to do is take a 700, fully blueprint it, align bore the raceway and shim the bolt, flute the bolt, skelatonize the bolt handle with a custom knob, add a custom bolt release, and ceracoat it. You paid for a Caddy but it still says Chevy!

I hear what you're saying, but what do you do if you have a McMillan stock crack, split or delaminate. What about scope failures, triggers....etc. Not trying to bust you chops, but there are all kinds of equipment failures that can occur.

Just carry a roll of blue tape!

And there you have it.......grin

You can test the crap out of it prior to field use. Work the bolt hard, many, many times just like guys do with other stuff such as shooting a new riflescope alot to see if there are any mechanical quirks (that usually show themselves early on). I believe these bolt handle stories were accidents just waiting to happen cause they did a [bleep] job (surfaces didn't mate correctly, halfassed brazing, sloppy worker etc..) which can happen with just about any mass produced item we buy today. Remember, there are over 5 million of these rifles produced, so I, personally, don't consider it an epidemic.

ps/ One of the reasons Jim Borden made the Alpine/Timberline series was because some of these custom actions were so tight, they didn't lend themselves well to hunting in areas where dirt and such was more problematic which effected action function if to much [bleep] got in there.

RD , you have a point there about the dirt interaction with tight spaced Custom Actions . Some years back I was Prairie Dog hunting out West when my hunting buddy asked me if I had a hammer in my tool kit . I handed him an old hammer and he proceeded to pound on his BAT Bolt to free it up . Made me cringe . I later sent him a picture of that event ! However , I'm still going for a BAT while I can still get around . I'm thinking a used BR Rifle I could rebarrel to a Varmint Cartridge would be a good bet .

I have never felt an action that was as solid and tight feeling as a BAT. I don't know that this necessarily means they are the best but they are certainly held to some very tight tolerances all around. Their action with the integral rail was like a vault door locking up! Heavy as one too!!

that is the action I have. yeah the tolerances are much tighter, but I just wipe my bolt off, and the inside of the action with some hoppes. then I put some tetra gun grease on a patch fold the patch in half and moved the grease around, then I put an ever so slight fine coating of it on the bolt, the spiral flutes help wipe away grime and debris and allow the tight action to work great.

as to the weight, yeah the railed BAT is heavier, but with #5 krieger, mcmillan classic stock, and allow bottom metal, I still came out to right at 8#'s bare. a lighter barrel could have easier brought that down to 7.5#'s or less.

I talked with the guys at BAT two weeks ago, before buying the HR for a long range hunting rifle. I was told there have been rare occasions when junk locked up the action. On the HR, they are contemplating opening up the raceways .001, changing the fluting so it can't catch debris, putting a small radius in at pinch points, and Meloniting the action to make surfaces so hard grit will slide, or crush, rather than bind. They also told me action weight of about 36 oz. with integral 20 MOA rail. My action should show up at the smiths' any day, and we are sending it back to BAT for Melonite. With this action, Kreiger #19 barrel, and Manners or Greybull stock, I expect the rifle to come in around 9.5lbs.

you worry too much, mine is the short action VR no issues with dirt or gunk. my other calling rifle is a ruger mk 2 in 22-250 and I had to wipe down the bolt just about as often. I wouldn't put any kind of coating on the action personally, in fact I kinda wish they had left the polished finish on the bolt. and bead blasted the rest. I don't know about you but I don't drop my gun in the dirt of mud. I am not a tactical guy that rolls around on the ground and goes into creeks and swamps. the spiral fluting IMO will take care of your needs unless you, roll in the dirt.

one thing to keep in mind top loading can be done and works ok but getting shells in there with the pic rail and gloves on isn't the easiest thing to do. I am going to switch out to a HS detachable mag setup when they become available. should make the gun feed a bit better and also allow me to change out barrels easily if I ever want to, and a mag change will accommodate the feeding.

What, me worry? (grin) I'm not a tactical guy either. I don't roll around in the dirt unless I fell down, and that don't happen much. I'm actually pretty easy on equipment... holds up better with a little care. That said it would be unacceptable to have an action lock up on a hunt, and I do a lot of shooting off a bipod, kicking up a little dust sometimes. The BAT is a Cadillac, so it's worth a few more bucks if the Melonite might make it a bit more reliable. The detachable mag would be a good feature. Currently we are going with BDL bottom metal.

The mags are very functional but impossible to carry slung without gouging your backside. I am going ADL from here on out.

uhh, say what, have you actually looked at the HS 4 round mag?? its not going to be hitting your backside. I agree though never see the point of the single stack AICS mags and all the other of the type.

AFan - Thanks, will carry Blue Tape on future hunts in case my McM gives way

RD - No doubt - Murphy's law can strike unexpectedly.

Buying quality I think is a hedge against it's ugly head.

When I made the statement about the Borden Alpine/Timberline I wasn't speculating. I've spoken with Jim quite a bit when he's had a display at the Harrisburg Outdoorsman Show even as far back to when he didn't even make his own actions yet. Working the bolt on one of his completely rebuilt mod 700's was a thing of beauty. Smooth as glass, tight and locked up like a vault.