OK...

So I have been in correspondence with a very well known smith about a 6.5 build. I'm not a novice around reloading, ballistics or competition shooting.. but for the life of me I cannot figure out how they are doing this...

it is a 25" barrel



am I missing something?

I could see 45.1 grs...but that is a very compressed load. 108% of capacity.

Sure. Run 72k psi and you can get there no problem...

John

OK he said safely????

You can achieve this easily with Vit N540 and N550 with CCI small rifle magnum primers. I am getting I got 2780 with 39grs of N540 and I am running a 22" barrel.

I'm getting 2960 with 130 Bergers and 40.5 grains of H4350 from a 25" Broughton. Viht 560 is a high energy powder and Lapua brass is tough, two reasons why someone may be able to push the 140 Berger to 3000. Or..... 70,000 psi.

Yep,

2900+ fps with the 140 VLD is totally possible; AND SAFE! With my first 6.5x47 I wanted to see what I could get with that combo as I was considering a light wt LR rig for hunting. At 43 gr of Rel 17 and the 140 VLD I was hitting 2960 fps with a 26" Krieger barrel. With 42.5 gr of Rel 17 and the 140 Accubond I got to 2910 fps.

I decided to make the jump and had the same gunsmith put together another rifle with a 26" Broughton, using the same reamer in a Pierce action.

140 AB, 42.5 gr Rel 17 = 2874 fps
140 VLD, 43.5 gr Rel 17 = 3021 fps
140 PT, 42.5 gr Rel 17 = 2945 fps

These were with CCI 450's. I did see pressure at these levels such as ejector marks or "slight" bolt lift issues.

I did pursue both the 140 PT and VLD loads and settled on

41.6 gr, 140 PT, 2869 fps
42.1 gr, 140 VLD, 2963 fps

From there I tried different primers and the Fed 205M came out on top. This surprised me because in my BIG Surgeon rifle, the CCI450 is the champ with H4350 and the 130 VLD.

I've run 5 firings on my brass with the VLD load and the pockets are still tight. I recently had a long talk with a ballistic lab buddy of mine who works for a LARGE powder company and we both agree i'm probably running 70K psi. He convinced me that with the modern case design of the -47 case, minimal case taper, sharper shoulder angle, small primer pockets, optimal neck length, minimal case sizing, Rel 17 and the VLD bullet with it's short bearing surface, I and my rifle are totally safe. He's a BR shooter and he and others routinely run 70K psi loads at weekend BR matches where hundreds of shots are fired over a weekend COF.

With all the above said, if one decides to reach into this territory, you need to know what you're doing and approach very carefully.

Alan

Cant tell ya for sure what the loading was but I shot a 6.5x47 L last summer at Ridgeway and took down several steel coyotes at 1000 yards usuing the 140g SMK.
2700 2900 who really cares?
It works.

dave

I've been running 130gr VLD and 123gr scenars at 2900-3000 with no issue.
That's my Stiller Krieger Combo. I have a Kimber Montana for the brother in law sitting here waiting for load development now too. I plan on shooting 120TTSX's over 2900 with it.

Um I care... about the safety thing. The rifles arn't cheap and 'jus making sure things like this arn't smoke and mirrors.

I'm not a speed freak but I am an accuracy nut and the claims are ragged holes at these speeds.

GSSP.

That's some good info. I appreciate it.

A set of 0-1 mikes and a good hand priming tool to tell if your primer pockets are getting big are your friend.
In the accuracy game how fast a bullet traveles is irrelevant other than usuing it to figure your drops.
I watched a 12 year old girl running a 6mm BR with a 105g Berger mop up at Ridgeway against guys that have been shooting for decades.
Her dad taught her how to read wind flags.

dave

With my Pierce, after a bit of throat wear = vel loss.

Alan

100 yd zero



576 yd verification; .53 MOA



833 yd cross canyon, downhill angle from Snipe-Pod/prone.



The tool

Keep posting pics - have to ship one of my new 260s to you w/Lapua Brass and let you work out the details Lol.

Nice shooting Alan!

very nice

dave

GSSP,

Who built it?

What's the scope there GSSP?

Thx
Dober

Cliff,

How's this?





I'm up to it! I love to work up loads during our winter months. Teens and 20's keeps the barrel nice and cool; no waiting for barrel to cool.

Cocadori,

Chris Matthews of Longshot Rifles but sadly, he just filed Ch 7.

Dober,

NF 2.5-10x32mm with NP-R1 reticle.

For the record, before his lathe went the by and by, Chris just took 1-2" of the barrel shank and trimmed the action of metal to bring the rifle under 8 lbs, if possible. Re-Cerakote then ship to me this week. Too bad as I have a late season Ute Tribe cow elk hunt and am leaving in about 3 hours. The tribe says with zero snow the elk are extremely spooky and a LR shot may be in order. So, I'm bring my BIG Surgeon with the 130 VLD @ 2850. Total confidence as I won the Utah State Sniper Shoot with this rifle/load in Sept. I'm hoping to drop my cow with my custom Pre 64 M70 in 257 Rob/115 BT but if I can't get close enough, the Surgeon is getting used.

I always got better velocity with N550, N540, and RL 17 but received the best accuracy with 41.5grs of H4350

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/index.php/topic,3778200.0.html


dave

Maybe I need a new powder, but I get nowhere near the speeds you guys are posting out of my 6.5x55, using 140's. I think I am at 2600fps or so. I am not hitting 3000 until I dropped to 100gr bullets. The Swede is a larger case, and I am using a modern rifle/loads.

Dave and Jim,

You guys got some awesome groups there. Me, I'm only about a 1/2 MOA shooter. If I do better, it's typically by accident. Both my -47's shoot better than me.

DC,

What powder are you using in your -55? I noticed that when powder charges were similar, the speeds went faster with 1st the PT then the VLD being the fastest; shorter bearing surface. Pressure were higher with the AB then the PT with the VLD the best.

Alan

With the 140s and 130s I was using H4831. I am going off memory, but I think I am using R15 with the 100's. (don't have my notes handy)

(130 Accubonds, 140VLDs)

Have to go and find my notes but my Dads Swede was right in around 2700 with a 140 Sie and H4350.

2900 is 6.5/06 range IME

Dober

Are you guys going off 6.5x55 reloading data or letting your "rifle" tell you when to stop?

Except a bit of Ramshot or VV 6.5x47 data their is NO other printed data out there. Just internet stuff. So, we -47 shooters have to listen/watch to see what our rifles tell us.

Alan

Letting the rifle tell me when to stop is my way, books will give a very good guideline though.

Dober

Unless you have actual pressure testing equipment, one can only guess what the pressure is doing.

I think anyone getting 2900fps out of a 6.5x47 with a 140 is waiting for a kaboom. Those are 6.5-284 speeds. From Hodgdon:

140 GR. SPR GS-SP Hodgdon H1000 .264" 2.910" 49.0 2503 53.5C 2694
140 GR. SPR GS-SP IMR IMR 7828 SSC .264" 2.910" 45.0 2462 50.5 2718
140 GR. SPR GS-SP Winchester Supreme 780 .264" 2.910" 48.6 2606 51.7 2797
140 GR. SPR GS-SP Hodgdon H4831 .264" 2.910" 45.0 2520 49.5 2722
140 GR. SPR GS-SP Hodgdon Hybrid 100V .264" 2.910" 45.0 2696 49.0 2895
140 GR. SPR GS-SP IMR IMR 4831 .264" 2.910" 43.0 2536 47.8 2762
140 GR. SPR GS-SP Hodgdon H4350 .264" 2.910" 42.0 2548 45.5 2720
140 GR. SPR GS-SP IMR IMR 4350 .264" 2.910" 42.0 2539 46.8 2753

I like a 1-8", or 1-8.5" for the 140's. You will have problems with stabilization in sub-zero temps with 140gr bullets with a 1-9". I'm not throwing out a guess, I've seen it. A 1-9" will champion the 130's like a dream in any temperature or elevation. Thats the bullet I like in .264" for cases the size of 6.5 Lapua, .260 and 6.5X55.

My Swede is an 8, and it cranks out the 156 Lapua Megas fine too. They are lobbing pretty good though, haha

Lapua Brass, small primer pocket, modern custom action, high pressures.

We're conditioned to think anything above 65K is a no-no, but virtually all the benchrest guys are running a lot more than that every day. Is it safe? Sure, if you have the right equipment.

Guys why the 6.5x47 instead of something like the Creedmoor? Is there a difference?

I don't have either so I'm no expert, but I am thinking real hard about building a 6.5L. I think the Lapua brass with small primers has a lot to do with guys preferring it. I don't think the importance of being able to get that brass can be overstated.

The 260, 6.5X47 and the Cm are very close in many ways. IMHO it comes down to user preference.

Personally I'm bouncing back and forth between the 260 and 47L

Here's a wrench:

http://www.6mmar.com/65_SuperLR.php

Yes Bob.
Its the Lapua brass.


dave

Large rifle primer in the 6.5 Creedmoor and .260 Remington, small rifle primer in the 47L.

FWIW, Lapua makes .260 Remington brass...

IMHO, the small primer pocket really makes a difference how the round stands up to pressure.

Alan

You are correct, I get 3000 fps with 130s using 50.5 grains of R17. I am using Lapua brass. If you are getting those velocities out of a 6.5x47 you are certainly dancing with 75,000 psi. BR shooters do it all the time. They have extremely tight tolerances on everything- doesn't mean it's safe.

I can't get 2900 with a 260 AI using R17. Are they doing it? I won't say they aren't but their pressures are way over the top. You are testing the yield strength of the action. If you want those velocities, use a 6.5-284.

Trying to learn here. Do the small rifle primers have thicker stronger cups than large rifle size primers in general?

I would think that the primers would be the weakest part of the system. Are certain primers brands more suitable than others for these high pressur cartridges?

I understand that the smaller hole for the primer on the 6.5x47L would make the case stronger versus the other cases.

Smaller area of the small primer leaves more supporting brass in the case as well.
I run the 450 CCI and other than one bad lot, have never had an issue. I've fired 5000 or so rounds out of my 6.5X47 Lapua's.
I tend to run the lighter bullets. Mostly the 123 MK's and A-Max's.Getting 2975 or so out of a 25" 8 twist Rock.
The 129 SST's I hunt with get right at 2900.
I do not hot rod as I need the rifle to function both in matches and hunting.

Thanks for the explaination. Those 123-130s bullets at the speed you are getting should do for just about anything.

I am not going to judge, but know PERSONALLY I would want to stay at speeds similar to cases that are close in capacity. Having had a near mis-hap long ago for several reasons, I err on the side of caution.

I trust the brass......and yes Scenar I have Lapua for 260

Where their is a NEED for speed, there is always a way to safely achieve it, without worry IMHO.

What a bullet will do at 3,000 mv I cannot imagine it won't work at 2,700 mv at any sane range on game, with a few clicks more.

I'd be looking at 2750 on the high side for 140s in a 22-24" bbl, 2850 w/130s, and 2900 w/123s....just me, but I'd be very content...not knocking those who do something different, but we each must do what we feel is ...sensible.

Those speeds are based on what I know are realistic/safe in 55s and 260.

Jim - agree - the 120-130 is a perfect wt. IMHO for the 47, and likely the 260 also given the COL in an SA. Having shot a .15 or so group CtC w/my 260 and 123 SMK, there MUST be something about it

Oh, maybe I flinched right...as I was using only a 6x!

Thanks to all for the responses!

As far as primers, There are certainly some with harder cups than others. In large rifle primers, the toughest I have found are the Wolf primers and BR2s are second.

As stated. The small rifle primers have less surface area and are less susceptible to deformation. Not sure how this translates into real world results but if someone is suggesting that it makes it safe to push 75,000 PSI because the primers hold, I would disagree with them.

Not doubt, and I would bet they are running hotter than 75K at those speeds they list.

I don't see a little more soft metal brass around the small primer hole as being THE factor for these pressures they claim are safe.

"I run Lapua brass with small primers holes therefore I can run pressures at 75K to 85K" and I still have my face intact".

What a deciption,

I want nothing of it.

SU - +1

Brass may not be the weak link here - as I think Steel is more likely to BLOW whereas Brass can FLOW.......

Maybe or maybe not those loads are safe....100%, but I'd hate to be holding an action that decided otherwise.

MAYBE a Ruger #1, but a fellow on the fire has had one let go also, I just think safety is first, and if one needs more speed, it can be had by rounds designed to do so.

I'm guilty of Hot Rodding my 6.5 Lapua. Running the 140 Berger hunting VLD @ 2960 with H4350 and CCI450's through a 27" Pac Nor, 1/8, 5 groove. Chronographed and validated at 1000yds.

I'm sure the pressure is up there, and I am not leaving anything on the table, but the rifle and brass appear to be operating comfortably. I'm at 200 rds of this load through the rifle. Spent primers have a nice round edge, no cratering, primer pockets tight after multiple reloads, no plunger or ejector marks on case head, no sticky bolt lift, and I have not even had to trim the brass after 4 reloads. Crazy.

My OPINION is the 6.5 Lapua is a stout, efficient little SOB that likes to Rock N Roll. Off a bi-pod and rear bag, its a 1/4 inch gun at 100 and 5 inch gun at 1000. At long range, I can watch my bullet strike through the scope. Very mild recoil and a pleasure to shoot.

In addition to recreational long range shooting, I used this load on a 150" 10pt Missouri buck this November. He didn't like it one bit! LOL

Show me the 5" groups at 1000 yards.

URDADDY,

You're ROCKIN there man! Way to go!

Here are a few groups.

1011 yds



.53 moa



.5 MOA ,1000 yds, Used corner to aim @ B27 target.

Just wanted to add, my current load of Rel 17 with the 140 VLD's, running 2910-2950 (temp variations) is 1.5 gr below the max I hit @ 3020 fps where the bolt showed a hint, and I mean, hint of difficult lift in the Pierce action.

Just a bit of peace of mind for "me" since I don't need to sooth anyone else's.....

Alan

Thanks for the backup and photos Alan! I will take the camera to the range next weekend for a photo shoot with the Lapua.

You realize you guys are claiming that you do this on a regular basis and these groups would win most 1000 yard BR shoots against riles built for just such a thing off benches and rests.

And you say your doing this in the dirt from a bi-pod???

Dirt...bench...truck bed....concrete

bipod....Snipe-Pod.....front rest.....

Just get me prone.

Alan

Show me the rig..

I'll give you one or 2 targets, maybe.

I'll also assume this is early morning no wind nor mirage.

I've shot against the best 1K BR shooters there are and they can't consistently keep 5" groups at 1K.

Oh my goodness NO! 5" all the time? No, no, no! More like 6-8 MOA all the time.

Pretty much quiet winds in the am.

Alan

Re: 2960 in a 27", my experience showed about 100fps for a 3" shorter bbl in a 55,

so in the 47, I figure you are getting about 25 per inch +/-, so about 100-130 or so more than a 22" sporter.

2850 in a 22" w/140 is moving in a small 6.5. Nice performance.

Comparing the 140 Berger .612, dropping from 2950-2750:

200 yd zero

400/500 yd clicks:

18/28 vs. 21/33

The initial 200fps MV diff drops to 169 at 500 yds....

Energy 1554/1328 at 500 yds...either capable of doing fine as far as I am ever likely to shoot.

Even a 130 Berger/2850 will do 1250 lbs at 500, drop 20/31 clicks at 400/500 w/200 zero.

BTW, nice shooting above!

No doubt perfect conditions and having a good shooter who is having a good day is key to optimum results, but seeing the potential above shows whats on tap.

Who cannot love the accuracy 6.5s give?

Come on Cocadori? Under favorable conditions, with a capable rifle, a 3 shot 1/2 moa group @1000yds is not that difficult. Five rounds becomes more challenging. Ten round groups in BR competition is really, really challenging, testing the endurance of the shooter, rifle, and your luck with the wind.

I'm a long range hunter, so I train with bi-pod and rear bag, shooting 3 or 5 shot groups from 300-1200yds. Mostly 3 shot groups. Anything more for me is just toasting the barrel for no purpose.

These were last August when getting ready to hunt. Fired from 833 yds, downhill about 45 deg, cross canyon with a 3-5 mph 4 o'clock wind from back of my Tundra bed using my Snipe-Pod and rear bag.

Alan

I'll agree but they way this was spun is you guys are doing the 5" thing at 1K all the time. Also 1/2 moa at 1k isn't difficult but it ain't easy either.

Best I've ever done in competition "for record" is 4.1".


I too am a LR hunter. I worry more about the first round hit within 5" of my POA at 1K than I do the small group. In a all types of conditions. Although small groups at distance are fun.

Wouldn't want to be on the other end of you Alan

I agree re: 3 shot groups, for a hunting rifle, more is just wearing out your bbl faster IMHO.

Agree last post, the 1st shot from cold bore, and being consistent is where the rubber meets the road 99% of the time for game.

Cliff,

Thanks for the nice compliment. I really enjoy tagging steel or paper out to 1k.

Alan

If I lived closer, would love to tag along. Glad you are 'ringing' that rifle out! Lol.

TAG

My 6.5x47 Lapua rifles are not pushed that hard as I like to know that a load I use in winter for deer will also work in summer on pigs.

FWIW, my 27inch barrel posts 3050fps with a 123gn load that the 24in barrel posts 3000fps with, and the 20in barrel posts 2800fps with.

I have come to a (not very scientific) conclusion that a barrel in the region of 22inches will deliver optimum velocity/handling characteristics.


2900fps with a 140gn bullet is what I am building a 6.5/06 for.

Who needs a 270...or 6.5-06 w/speeds like that? Nice.

I am very fond of the 6.5 Lapua. I have a game load worked up for this rifle that is nice and mild now. 130gr Interbonds with 40gr of H4350 and CCI SRM primers doing 2900 and change out of its 25" Krieger.

Great speeds.

ok 6.5 Lapua shooters how's the throats holding up as compared to the higher case volume with lower pressures rounds such as a .260 or 6.5X55

Shooting bud just won the two day event at Ridgway,Pa. running a 6.5x47L.
Thats 10 crows at 850.
10 woodchucks at 900.
10 bobcats at 950
10 coyotes at 1000.
His two day total against 86 shooters was 49 for the overall.
He did it with 140g Berger Hybrids,VV550 and CCI 450s.
Defiance Rebel action.
Rock MTU 1-8 twist finished at 28 inches
D&B Tracker stock
Nightforce 12-42x56 NSX. NP-2DD.
I spotted for him.
He spotted for me.
I blundered into 3rd overall with a 44.
The 6.5x47 is a damm fine round.


dave

I've burned out about .09" of throat of my first 6.5x47 Lapua by round 800 at which point it has yet to grow anymore by round 1400. Still shooting in the .2's and .3's when I'm having a good day and .5 on my average days. My load is the 130 VLD, 40.8 gr H4350 and CCI 450's for about 2850: not a hot load.

One of these days I'll measure my 2nd -47. I know I've run hotter loads through it. It's still very accurate with around 1000 rds down.

Alan

I believe it! WOW........look at McWhorter!!!!! This is SMOKIN!!!!!!

http://www.mcwhorterrifles.com/accuracy/

My buddies 6.5x47 has really come along.
He won the two day event at Ridgway last month and last week he took third against 107 other shooters with 28 targets out of 40.
The rifle is a hammer.
We scoped it at the 1000 round mark and it had just a faint amount of the beginnings of checking.I was totally impressed.Its a Rock Creek MTU barrel.
I have almost the very same set up.Only mine has a break.
Hes running a hot load of VV550 with he 140g Berger Hybrid.
So Am I .


dave

Good stuff Dave. Once I burn my barrel out and get it rebarreled, I might try the Hybrid's.

Alan

As SOON as I get mine in on next month the Hybrid's will be what I'll start with first along with N550!

I've got 1lb of N550 and it scares me! I'll likely find an excellent load with it and have to pay the BIG bucks to keep buying it.

Alan

I had quite a bit left over from loading it in my 300wsm.........so ready to try it!

The hybrids are not touchie at all about seating depth.
That why they are.
Work up to around 40g of VV550 with the Hybrid and kick bootie.
Arter working with the Hybrid I dought ill mess with the VLD.
And I have 1000 of Hoovers finest.....

dave