I have 45-50 three shot groups in the binder, and with a few (3-4) bughole groups, this fk'r is amazingly consistent.

Zeiss Conquest in Burris signature rings.
Trigger is adjusted to about 2.5 lb's.
Action is bedded very nicely including the barrel shank.
Clearance on bottom, sides and front of recoil lug.
Barrel is floated.
Worked up loads with 120 BT, 130 AB, 123 Scenar, 123 AMax, 140 AMax and 120 TSX's.
H4350 and a few loads with H4831SC
About 50/50 FED 210M and BR2's
Neck sized only with Redding Comp die.
Case necks brushed out before loading.
Cases annealed after three firings.
No pressure signs to date.
Land location determined by Stoney Point.
Headspace allowance for difference between modified case and fired case confirmed.
The first five groups +/- plain bullets, all others moly'd.

Range is 100 yards, about 30 yards wide with 12' berms on three sides.

This SOB shoots 2 together and one 1"-1.5" in outer space like group #3 below. It may be any of the the three shots, but at least one is out.

I believe I have covered everything except the scope but my gut tells me the Zeiss is not the problem. This particular scope was bought off the classifieds and sent to Zeiss for turrets; I would think Zeiss would have looked it over but I could be wrong.

I rarely shoot in poor conditions watching the weather to shoot in the morning on days I have a head or tailwind less than 8 mph to eliminate drift and I use flags (streamers). I shoot early to keep the temperature down (75-85 deg right now). The swivel studs are removed, I use talcum powder on the rest and bag, I hold my breath and squeeze.

I know when I am on target because the reticle covers the target perfectly.

I have 1500.00 tied up is this fk'r and I am not happy.

1. Scope? I can swap that today.

2. Stock? I would need to borrow a stock.

3. Barrel? I have heard few if any negative comments about PacNor.

What the hell am I missing?

The only thing I will not do is put a pressure point under the barrel, all of my barrels are floated and I will not start now.




This is what set me off, I went this morning with loads that have previously shown potential, specifically to make sure I was not becoming lazy with form. I made sure my eye was centered in the scope, kept a consistent grip and the butt firm to my shoulder but not tight.






.

i would try switching scope then you no if it keeps up its not that group 5 looks good.then try stocks if that dont work send it back to pacnor.

Look on the side.

See where it doesn't say Remington?

There's your problem...

1. I would take out the bedding under the barrel shank so the barrel is completely floated all the way to the face of the recoil lug.

Depending on how that works out,

2. Leave the barrel completely floated & add a neutral pressure point under the barrel about an inch from the front of the forend of the stock.

Assumes that the bedding actually is good & is not stressing the action when screws are tightened.

Also, if action has the 3rd middle screw, be sure it is only just snug, not tight at all.

Good Luck.

MM

You mean the group where you have noted on the target "Yanked trigger, shot #1"?

I'd say it's a pretty easy problem to diagnose...

ColdBore, that is an *example* of the groups I am seeing but I definitely pulled the trigger. Our range has one continuous bench, at times I have to time shots in between other people if they sit close or when they rack the bolts on their rifles. I think in the case above, a guy was shooting an AR two seats away and it was fk'n loud.

I just added targets from this morning, only me on the bench.

My guess is the 'clearance' around the front recoil lug. I like to bed them tight as in difficult to remove tight - zero clearance. That would be my first step. Then, play with the seating depth of the bullets a bit. It is not ALWAYS the case that EVERY bullet wants to be touching the lands and grooves, sometimes a load will shoot noticably better with some jump there. Also, try only partially re sizing the case necks, leaving 1/4 inch of the neck un sized so that it remains a crush fir into the chamber helping to line out the bullet to bore concentricity. If those steps don't remove the fliers then try some Barnes TTSX's seated kind of deep with some jump before they contact the lands and grooves.

Rifle rest technique.... with a skinny hunting type rifle forend and light hunting weight barrel I get my best groups by shunning the typical metal front rest with itshard and often too wide front rest. Instead using an Uncle Buds bull's bag or other small opening tight on the guns forend sandbag that holds the rifle tight and upright for me with my job being merely to adjust the bags and squeeze the trigger, minimal contact between me and the rifle ittself.

Lastly, find a place to shoot or perhaps a different time to shoot when you can be there by yourself and not have fliers due to unexpected BANG'S going off as you are squeezing a shot. Add ear plugs WITH your muffs, I do at all times and it helps me shoot better.

Good luck!

Ideally I would just swap the scope first and go shoot. But the range is a good distance down the road and pay by the hour.

I can grind out the bedding easily and go shoot it tomorrow morning with the current Zeiss and see if anything changes. If I still get the flyers, I can swap the scope with another Zeiss at the range and continue shooting.




When I say clearance, it was one or two layers of masking tape on the bottom, sides and front; is this too much clearance?

The necks are sized about 1/16" from the shoulder, is this sufficient?

If the groups were consistent around an aiming point, even if 1"-1.5" center to center I would start tweaking the powder and seating depth. I am resisting the urge to start changing too much at once and the reason I stuck with H4350 and 210M's.

Here is the bedding, I realize ya'll can't see it as clearly as I can or feel how the action fits. I tighten the front screw tight and the rear snug. The factory tang bedding had a void around the hole so I chipped it out and poured it solid and re-drilled the hole.








.

MM

Assuming you are very consistant in your shooting technique, rifle position and you use the same rest, or rests for testing, I'd say the scope.
Your groups vary in size and your zero seems to shift. All of this is not happening on a consistant basis. So your scope is suspect No.1.
Try a different scope. E

My opinion is different from that of MM. I prefer, as I said above, zero clearance as in looks and feels like one piece and acting together in the recoil lug area, no masking tape used, only release agent. We all have our pet theories and ways of doing things and the bedding clearance idea might work wonderfully for some, my rifles shoot wonderfully and best when there is a super tight fit at the recoil lug. Might try my way once and then MM's way if that does not tighten the groups.

I personally see the bedding job at the barrel chamber area to be quite nice and clean looking, and about right. I would leave that as is for a while and look to other things first.

I agree on releiving the screw holes some. Making them not contacting the bedding might be a big help.

If it were me, I would relieve those holes a bit then re bed the recoil lug with no tape and go shoot the rifle again. Very good chance that the groups will be good with just those minor tweaks. Good luck!

Forget the "clearance". Bed it tight, degrease screws and loctite them at about 50 in/lbs.

Check the front screw on your bases. It may be too long and be contacting the barrel threads. If it is, you will see the indentation on the top of the barrel threads-flat shiny spots.

Make sure the mag box is seated properly and not bound up in the mortise. I usually grind off .020 on all mag boxes.

Looks like the rear action screw may need to clearance so the screw itself is not contacting any portion of the pillar or bedding.

P.S.

I can't tell, but if your barreled action is sitting on an aluminum bedding block you need to skim bed it. NO metal to metal fit.

Bed the recoil lug and everything else tight. Did I mention to bed it tight and no metal to metal contact?

Hope so.

I appreciate everyone and your thoughts, even views that contradict are valuable because each condition is suspect. Here is what I found and what I have done.

I checked the action bolts and the front bolt was right against the stock so I enlarged both stock holes to make sure there is clearance, about a 1/16".

My bedding compound creeped up the side of the barrel shank quite a bit, almost to the bore centerline. Since the flyers seem to be mostly right or left at 30-45 degrees, and I don't completely cool the rifle between shots or groups this is suspect to me. I decided to get rid of the bedding in the stock back to the recoil lug and went after it with the die grinder.

Last weekend, 42 gr's of H4350 produced a .336" group with all other charges higher and lower grouping 1"-1.25".

This morning, the group at 42 gr's is .461" and 42.5 gr's is 2" or so. I did not shoot any lower charges.

I am going to load a batch of AMax's at 42 gr's and carry a scope with me later this evening or tomorrow morning and try again. If the flyer's persist I will swap the scope and keep shooting.

I have had excellent luck with both full-lug bedding and "clearance" bedding of the lug, with dozens of rifles.

The scope is always among my first suspects, but you might check to see if the magazine box is binding either on the bottom of the action or anywhere inside the stock, especially the front or rear end. I've seen groups like that a number of times due to the magazine box putting pressure somewhere.

Respectfully disagree.

I have a M700 VS (HS Precision stock).

It is not bedded, has metal to metal contact, and regularly shoots in the 1/2 MOA range. It is "as-issued" by the Remington factory.

I also have others (VS/PSS, same stock style), that I have skim bedded, on a recommendation.

I certainly can't tell a difference.

The first thing I would do is scrub the barrel really well and ditch the moly, some barrels just don't like the stuff. If you get it shooting OK without the moly then you can start playing with it again, right now it just adds another variable.

What caliber?

260

PacNor Super Match, 22" 8T 5-groove, .630" muzzle

Golly Gee, Benchrest hall of famer Walt Berger must be wrong then..... Who knew?

I use Moly by the metric tonload and it always helps with my rifles.

Kidding aside, I seriously doubt that Moly has the slightest to do with any of this.

Glad it shoots like that.

I'll never do that on a rifle though. Not a bedding block on the planet that fits a barreled action as well as one that is bedded.

Been awhile since I purchased an HS stock. IIRC they include a packet of "epoxy" to skim bed it.

Check the bullet & case neck concentricity?

I agree 100% with Safariman and Karnis when it come to the bedding of your rifle, so I wont repeat it. The only thing I can add is that I bed the action as well.

Mule Deer and Eremicus covered the scope, and that may well be the problem also.

PacNor makes excellent barrels, but I would make certain that the chamber is concentric with the bore. Use a Borescope to inspect the leade and make sure that the throat and lands are absolutely square to each other. If it isnt, it will be easily seen.

The only way I have found to make a rifle with a crooked chamber shoot is to full length size the brass, and jam the bullet into the lands, If the only contact points are the boltface and rifling, they seem to straighten up and start shooting. This can obviously be a problem with a hunting rifle having the bullets jammed.

I have also seen uneven lug contact, and even a burr on the action shoulder/barrel contact cause some goofy groups.

One of these things will be the answer to your problem. FL sizing the brass and seating into the lands doesnt cost anything, (unless you dont have a FL die), rebedding the action and swapping scopes only takes time, so you should be able to find the cause and be able to fix it.

Lighten up.

I never said rifles couldn't shoot great with moly, obviously many do. He's trying to solve a problem and the moly adds another variable to account for plus he only shot five uncoated bullets down the brand new barrel before starting the moly, it's not even close to broken in yet. The first thing to do when trying to isolate a problem is reduce as many variables as possible. I've used moly before myself and it will occasionally make a difference in how a load shoots and the velocities. I don't use it now because I didn't find it offered enough benefit for the work it required, no skin off my back if someone wants to use it, go for it.

Silly but any chance you have another set of dies? Not enough clearance for the barrel to float? Targets looks like your barrel may be hitting. Your stuff is consistently inconsistent. Either that or full bed the the barrel... That's a #$^@#^ head scratcher right there...


W

Should have clarified..............intended the comment to be concerning barrel clearance in the barrel channel. But on everything but a Mauser, I do not the bed barrel forward the recoil lug face.

As for the lug itself, as MD says, it works both ways, so since it does, I mostly bed it tight with no tape clearance anywhere on the lug.

Sorry about not making it more clear............my fingers outraced by brain.

MM

I don't think anyone mentioned ammo quality and concentricity until sgtsmmiii and you.

I would recommend getting a gadget to check run out. My favorite is the Sinclair, but there are others. The TruTool is my favorite straightener and it's been discussed before.

DF

I swore off HS products after they hired Lon Horiuchi as their sniper consultant. That was their choice, this is my choice.

I have an HS rifle that I traded for, used. HS didn't make a dime off this deal. I skim bedded the stock whether it needed it or not. It made me feel better.

HS stocks are bull stout, but too think and heavy, IMHO. Not my favorite handle, not my favorite company...

DF

Crow Hunter,

Sometimes when my pain is high or I get into a pizzin match elsewhere I can sound a little too wound up over here. Now feelin light as a butterfly!

Truth be told, I have quit on the Moly with all of my over 25 cal stuff due mostly to plain laziness.

Point is well put and taken.

Hope you kill a truckload of Crows this fall.

I amen checking bullet runout. From my experience, your groups would seem to be consistent with ammo that just isn't straight. I would also shoot five shot groups as you can reduce the confusion of the luck factor.

I woke up at 6:00 and had one three shot cappuccino in lieu of three and started thinking about the bedding. I left a small portion of Devcon shown by the yellow outline; in the process of drilling out the bolt holes yesterday, I tore up the skim coat of Devcon on the bedding block.

I thought there might be a chance the small about of bedding in the stock could put upward pressure on the barrel so I went to the garage and used the die grinder and flap disc to remove it.




A few minutes before I was ready to leave I looked at the mag box again, I could see a small gap between the mag box and bottom metal but one corner looked close. So I tore it apart again and wet sanded the mag box with 400gr wet or dry on the kitchen counter. After I tightened the bottom metal I could clearly see a gap all the way around the mag box.

I grabbed the Cooper and decided I should bring some 155 Scenar's, I had six seated long for testing a while back so I seated them to 2.810" and hauled ass.

There was a light breeze at my back and it was overcast and cool, I fired the first three and even though this is a proven .500" load I fired a .980", took a few swigs of soda, a few deep breaths and fired the .690"...not ideal, however, there were no shooter or scope induced flyers.




I grabbed the 260 and fired one shot at a 2" dot to see if removing the bedding caused any major issues and the shot was 1/2" high and dead center.

I followed up with this group, I can't remember the order but damned if I didn't have the same [bleep] again, 2 in .410" and 3 in 1.630".




I didn't waste any time and grabbed the Cooper and got really pissed when I realized I didn't have the Talley wrench, luckily I found the right size torx screwdriver in the door of the pickup, I have no clue why it was there but I got lucky. I fired one shot at the 2" dot, adjusted the Zeiss 6" up and left 1.5" and fired these two groups. I moved the scope 6 clicks to the right between these groups, the reason why the point of impact changed.




The wind started picking up a bit so I fired this group at 200 and was quite pleased with shots 1-3. While the rifle was cooling a guy showed up and almost demanded I move because he needed to shoot at 200. I told him he would have to wait and fired shots 4-6, the wind had picked up to 5-10 mph hour and switching between 5-7 o'clock. I fired those shots fairly quickly and don't remember the order and never checked the flag and it shows.




I stayed at the 200 yard seat to be a dick and fired a three shot group, triangular and about 1" so I decided to shoot my last three at the same target, .976" shooting fairly quickly with minimal cooling.




I will send the Zeiss back to have it checked out and continue working on loads with 120-123gr bullets. At least for now I have what appears to be one good load to play with.

Thanks for all of the help!!!

In response to several people asking about concentricity, I have not checked loads with this set of Redding Comp dies, but I have borrowed a friends gauge and the other sets in 6mm, 308, 300WSM and 270WSM produce .001-.003 bullet runout.

Redding Comp dies should produce some of the most concentric rounds, especially reloading fired cases, not counting starting with new ones. Your runout seems to be Kosher. A runout gauge is a nice thing to have in the shop. You don't know until you know...

DF

The problem is similar to two-grouping. Either the barreled action and bedding or the base screws are causing the problem.

Bet you a box of bullets I'm right.

RDW: where you located?

I opened up the action bolt holes yesterday and clearanced the mag box this morning. These are three shot groups from this morning and I believe the issue was the scope.

Thanks for the help!

Mo better, for sure...

DF

Had the same experiences with mine Coldbore. All glass bedding the action area did was close up the gaps. Rifle shot the same as it always did.

Could not agree more.

I think hiring Lon was a slap in the face to American hunters and citizens. I know the FBI (and govt. bureaucrats) routinely reward bad behavior. It gives them justification that their management actions were (are) somehow Kosher, even though the Ruby Ridge debacle cost us (taxpayers) millions in civil damages.

Then for HS to embrace this fearless Hawaiian as their role model and consultant was just too much for me. HS stuff is good, just not THAT good, IMHO.

I think HS is making plenty of money with govt. contract sniper weapons and pressure barrels for the industry, and they aren't that concerned about us.

I vote with my pocket book. They may live to regret thumbing their noses at us and my memory is pretty good. Those big govt. contracts come and go...

DF

when mine throw a flier it usually means OAL is close but not right on.

I'm betting it's either a magazine box that's bound up under torque (the one on my Mod 70 EW had to be relieved a bit), or you just haven't found the right seating depth. Every one of my rifles does that until I get the OAL correct. That's not a problem...it's load development.

Two in the same hole and a flier. I'd say a tad bit of throat erosion has changed the distance to the lands and grooves. A small change in seating depth and you should be back in buisiness.

Looks to me like it was the scope, like he had reported... Glad to see that little rig shooting nicely!

Guard screws touching would be my bet!

+1 on too much bullet jump. My benchrest guy recommends .003"

Dave, didn't you resolve the scope as the issue?

Tanner, based on the few groups I shot Sunday, I believe it was the scope and will continue load testing.

Sweet! Those last 2 groups are super.

I just posted under Optics about my Nitrex scope doing the same thing. I would say the easiest thing is to change the scope before you do anything. If that doesn't work, then try the other ideas.

Why not try and shoot more than 3 shots at a time. I shoot at least 5 for load testing. Creating a greater sample size will make accuracy problems much easier to see.

Very good suggestion. It's simple data analysis, the more data you have the more accurate your analysis can be.

This thread has been very informative. I have a recently rebarreled .243 AI that is showing the same double grouping trouble. After some load work to single out the best potential loads, I fired 7 shot groups with the four best ones. That really demonstrates the trend and it's definitely double grouping.

I've tried all of the remedies listed here: changed scopes to one known to be reliable, tried five different bullets known for accuracy - Sierra and Hornady BTHP's, V-Max's and A-Max's, tried each of those five at three different seating depths - .010, .030 and .050, obviously tried different powder charges, relieved the magazine box, and cleaned the barrel to bare metal twice in the process. Last night I put some business cards under the barrel (currently free floated) at the forend tip to create a pressure point and will be trying that this afternoon.

When the smith installed the barrel he bedded the lug in Tight, so tight he had to bevel the sides to get it out. If the pressure point doesn't work I'm going to take it back to him and have him tear out the bedding and redo it with clearance at front, sides and especially the bottom. I only want the back of the lug and the action bottom resting on the bedding.

Since none of the above works what I suspect is that he bedded the action in with the screws only snug, not tight, which is fine as long as there is some clearance below the lug. With the bottom of the lug already bearing against the bedding, when I torqued the action screws properly that introduced stress as the lug bottom was squeezed hard against its seat.

But we'll see. The only way to figure these things out is to change one variable at a time.

I recently had pure hell out of one and come to find out it was a slight base bridge height difference and holes slightly off center. Went to DD bases and Signature rings, problem solved. Took 3 barrels, two quality glass stocks, 3 bedding jobs, and alot of head scratching to figure it out. I certainly hope yours is easier.