Benefits and drawbacks of each?

This has been beat to death, do a search

And 99 out of 100 shooters would never see a difference....maybe 100 out of 100

Although you will get lots of opinions.....

This is going to be good.

Hammer Forged (sometimes called rotoforged) third best for accuracy and thermal stability. Offers good quality for mass production at a reasonable price point.

Button rifled, depending on manufacturing processes used, second best for accuracy and thermal stability. Some are among the most accurate aftermarket barrels made.

Cut rifling is generally stress free, produces potentially best accuracy and thermal stability. Slower to produce as each groove is cut separately, can be the most accurate barrels available, or not.

All of the above is true, all of the above is false. Some barrels just shoot phenomenally no matter which process is used, some are abysmal shooters even when everything is done correctly with great care (if the chamber isn't reamed correctly even the best barrel may not shoot as expected). Choosing a manufacturer based on performance record and technique offers some degree of assurance. I use button rifled barrels and cut rifled barrels and sometimes can't tell the difference.

Have fun learning about a really interesting subject.

What he said..
I have seen a nice ruger no 1 in 223 with hammer forges barrel that shot amazing out of the box then start to really fade after 300 rds. Bore scope showed the rifling to be just fine... I always wonder if the stresses were relieving some and bore was getting overall bigger. We just re barreled it and moved on. Never been to fond of the hammer forge process since...

The quality of the virgin material is far more important to the finished product, in perspective, as is the quality of the "process" used , than the process that is used in its self.

Hog wash.........

I'd say each person is answering considering their own shooting skills.. and I do believe many can't outshoot their own gear.

That being said - there is a difference, and cut is best.

Cut rifled barrels are the current fad.
20 years ago buttoned rifle barrels were the fad.
When done and chambered with care ,both are equal and would exceed the normal shooters ability to tell the difference.
Results from the Original Pa 1000 yard BR club show it.
Anyone saying different is pretty full of themselves
Hammer forged barrels are typically used on production rifles.To save money.Im not saying they cant be dammed fine barrels.But just looking at the process of hammer forging.Your asking for alot.
Never heard of anyone usuing a hammer forged barrel as short or long range BR rifle.Or a high end custom for that matter.
dave

The biggest knock on hammer forged barrels compared to the others is they necessarily have to be soft. A thin barrel is very easy to bend or damage. They have a lot of stress built into them. I don't mind button barrels as long as they are #4 or heaviers. I get cut rifled barrels otherwise. There are lots of bargain button barrels but there are no bargain cut rifled barrels.

http://firearmshistory.blogspot.com/2010/05/rifling-manufacturing-hammer-forged.html

dave

Good post Dave. This is exactly right. Fads come and go. There are great barrels and bummer barrels made by everyone. But hammer forged? They are not match grade in any way, they are cheap to make, production.

As the others have said, hammer forged is for cheap high volume mass manufacturing. Hammer forged barrels are always bottom of the barrel although an occasional one might shoot really well.

Between cut rifling and buttoned it's a tossup. As Dave says, the current fad is cut rifling but I don't believe anyone can statistically show that cut barrels are any better than buttoned. You'll hear guys make statements like they won't use a buttoned barrel if it's light, etc. but there's really no rational basis behind that thinking.

I can't say that I've ever had a hammer forged barrel that was as accurate as any of the top line button rifled custom tubes I've owned. I've had some very accurate Remington factory tubes on a re-chambered 280 Ackley and a 300 WM Sendero. Never had a cut rifled barrel, but like Dave said, just look at the winners list of equipment and you'll see both button and cut rifled so if there was a definitive difference, they all would be using the "most accurate" barrel rifling method. Honestly, I think the smith has at least as much to do with the accuracy of a rifle than agonizing over who makes the "best" barrel. I've heard the arguments over stress induced during the rifling process, but considering how many times a custom tube is stress relived during the entire barrel making process, it seems to be a non starter argument to me.

Hammer-forged barrels are actually highly regarded in Europe, partly because they've been making them far longer than any American company, so know how to do it. And in general Europeans expect more accuracy from factory rifles than we do. Among some of the companies with reputations for fine accuracy that use hammer-forged barrels are Sako, Steyr and Heym.

One big reason custom barrelmakers don't use hammer-forging is the initial cost of the machinery.

One of the most consistent day in day out accuracy barrels I've ever had on a deer rifle was a Douglas SS air gaged on a no4 280 AI built by Nelson Berger.
As you can imagine a tend to be a bit pickie about how my rifles shoot.
The button rifled Douglas ...which by the way, was not lapped was just excellent.
And recommended by Nelson. He liked them.Not hard to see why.
These days im playing with a 7mm Mashburn with a 1989 vintage cut rifled barrel from Mark Chanlynn.
For accuracy it has exceeded my expectations.
dave

Considering the number of world records and precision match wins by Lilja button rifled barrels I think Dan L. might have a slightly different opinion than the above.

I don't care if benchrest folklore creeps into my deer hunting gear on the non recurring level, like barrels.

But I do care if someone on the internet tells me how to cure my 10 moa groups by deburring the flash holes, a recurring effort.

So I pay for Krieger barrels and Shilen Select match. Even though I can't tell the difference in how they shoot from a Shilen match. I can tell the difference by looking in the bore, but not by shooting.

How does it look different to you ?


dave

Mirror finish vs not.

Look in Hart, Lija, Shilen Select match, Krieger, etc barrels and they are mirror like accurate reflections when illuminated with fiber optic cable and observed under magnification.

We used to believe in blood letting too SCIENCE is not made up [bleep]

Frankly, the quality of the tooling and the expertise of the operator, have far more to do with the quality and accuracy of the barrel than does the method of rifling. I've seen a number of pronouncements here that hammer forged barrels are "cheap" barrels. If one amortizes the cost of the machinery necessary to produce such barrels, they are anything but cheap.The cost of the necessary machinery to produce hammer forged barrels start at in excess of a million bucks and go up from there. A mandrel for a specific cartridge and twist rate cost around $1500 twenty years ago. I have no idea what they cost these days, probably at least double, if not more.

Some of the most consistently accurate barrels that I've owned were hammer forged. Given the same level of care and precision by the operator, and the same quality of the equipment, I doubt there is anyone alive that could tell the difference in a top quality barrel produced from any of the rifling methods.

Yes just do a search. This has been thrashed to death.





Hogwash is someone claiming they can tell how a barrel was rifled by shooting it.

The next custom you build you can just pop over to europe and bring one back.
dave

I had a Hart that had that super high gloss finish.Very accurate.
I have two Obymeyers in 30 cal. The finish is more of a satin.
My first Obymeyer has 2059 rounds on it and doesnt look awhole lot different than when new. ie It takes longer to clean it now. That it takes longer to clean is about the only thing different. I would have expected it to look alot different .But it doesnt.

dave

a newbie smith without decent training can jack up the best barrel in the world.

So in the end the barrel has a great amount of dermination as to if the gun can shoot, but there are so many other things involved.. a good crown, stress relieved or not, and if it's chambered aligned with the bore or not....

one thing in common though, is that the custom guns tend to be made of the best parts, and tend to shoot better.

Hand lapping can fix a problematic barrel, but I'd rather start with good stock barrels - cut that is.

No, just empirical data.

Pulling a button through a barrel induces a lot more stress than shaving grooves one ten thousandth at a time. Consequently, the thin cut rifled barrels are mostly stress free and will shoot good hot or cold if they are going to shoot at all. I have seen button rifled barrels that really go wonky when heated up. It doesn't seem to affect the heavier ones as much.

Made up? How? You seem to be completely sold on a cut barrel, and where is the science in that? How can anyone scientifically prove a cut barrel is more accurate than a button barrel. You can't and you know it. What you are doing is trying to spread your OPINION in a manner which is not shared by others.

The worst barrel I ever onwned was a cut barrel made by the biggest cut maker in this country. I've also had a number of excellent barrels from the same. The same thing can be said for button. Both good and bad. There is NO certainty.

This

My question is this....when it comes time to spend $300-$400 bucks on a barrel, and another (what?) $200-$$350 for installation, what barrels are guys buying?

Also for the avid match shooters, what barrels do they see on the lines most often?

+1. Had a buddy in Florida that owned a Custom golf store, I once asked him what golf clubs were most popular? He said 'whatever Tiger Woods is using'.

Dave, I pretty much did just that. The current rifle I have in the works has a Lothar
Walther barrel which I got from Ralf Martini who got it from Europe. It is a button rifled barrel however, and not a hammer forged one. It is chambered for the 9.3x64 Brenneke cartridge. I have another Lothar Walther barrel on one of my 9.3x62 customs, also button rifled. It shoots lights out and I expect the 9.3x64 will do the same. I have several rifles with cut rifled bores by Danny Pedersen. They are all excellent. As I wrote earlier, I believe it is the skill of the maker and the quality of the tooling that is mostly responsible for the quality of the finished barrel.

I see it even at the local level, at one local club there are a couple of guys who are more successful and the other shooters copy their equipment. One of those guys is home smith and he chambers adams and bennet barrels and because he can shoot well and places well there are a couple of other guys that shoot the A&B barrels copying him. They are probably the only A&B shooters in the world.

According this list it looks like a toss up between Broughton and Kreiger.

http://www.pa1000yard.com/results/r...p;showshoots=No&tops=No&topct=10

RD yeah it seems that way. Interesting. Broughtons are button rifled right?

Yep. Pull buttoned as said on their website.

Pretty sure they are button rifled.

Tom,

As I mentioned earlier, and as you well know, Americans aren't as demanding as Europeans (especially Germans) when it comes to factory rifle accuracy. But an average German factory rifle will usually shoot as well as the typical rebarreled, restocked Remington 700 now considered a "custom" over here. My present .300 Winchester Magnum is a Heym SR-21 that shoots better than any of the other .300 WM's I've owned over the decade, including two American customs. It has one of those schittdy hammer-forged barrels. A lot of Americans also rave about how well Tikkas shoot, and they also have HF barrels.

Ruger is getting pretty good at hammer-forging barrels these days, one of the reasons their cheap American Rifles normally shoot so well. Most people looking through a bore-scope would be hard-pressed to tell the difference between the inside of many Ruger barrels and various lapped custom barrels these days.

All,


An observations, When I first started reloading (in the early 70s) I would read a lot of the books my dad had collected from the "olden days". Back when button rifling was getting it's start, It was the "Black Science". A statement from that time, "Anyone can pull a button through a pipe".


And a Question, If someone wanted to buy a Hammer Forged barrel for a custom build (not a factory take off) are there any available? And if so at what cost compared to the cut and button customs?

8mmwapiti

John,

Ain't it the truth. Strange you should mention your Heym .300 Win mag. My current .300 Win mag is one of the most accurate rifles I've ever owned or ever hope to own for that matter. It shoot far better than my tired old eyes can. My son shoots it consistently in the .2s. It's barrel is an E.R.Shaw that folks are constantly bitching about. It is button rifled of course, but still not normally held in high esteem. Score another point for expertise and tooling.

Hope Santa left a Purdey under your tree. TT

I have a Rock, and 2 Krieger cut rifled barrels as well as a mix of factory barrels from the mainstream players including Sako. I'm hard pressed to best the Sako in the accuracy dept. with the cut rifled barrels. Remington factory barrels are hit and miss....Some are spectacular while others are minute of deer.

Of the five Weatherbys two were tack drivers and two okay and one was bad. So much for hammer forged.

Were they all hammer forged, or did any of them have a Criterion barrel which is an OEM supplier Weatherby uses? Those are button rifled.

mathman,

You're doing that on purpose to make me look bad. I know that.

To answer your question I have no idea. The first one was about 1980. The another two about 1985. Then another about 2005 and the last one was a couple years ago. They were all new at the time. I hope that helps.

No, it was an honest question.

The 2005 and later one could be hammer forged or otherwise depending on model. Some of the MkV rifles featured the Criterion while others didn't.

I'm going to have to scope a NIB Ruger American now to see what I see...

I've scoped my Tikka's and /sako's, even my 700 when it was new. Krieger's look better every time than any of those.

FWIW-Karl Feldcamp once told me that that Broughton was his favorite barrel w/ Brux being pretty close. I know he is not at the top of the benchmatch world, but I hear he places at the top in local matches using a 6.5 Broughton.

Mule Deer -

I'm short on information on hammer forged barrels are made, and if stress relieving is part of the process after they are made. If you know of any good source of information please point me there, I'll go off and do some looking myself as well of course.

I have first hand experienced bore variations in diameter, and in straightness, and misalignments in chamber to bore, crown and damaged crowns& bores, hoever I have never looked that deeply about how barrels are made.

Thanks,
Spot

Hammer forged link - wow!

http://web.archive.org/web/20120116195631/http://technology.calumet.purdue.edu/met/higley/Precision%20Shooting%20Magazine%20-%20November-%202005%20(Vol_%2053%20-%20No_%207).htm

This article explains why Klienguenther could guarantee 1/2" groups back in the '70s. He used Voere rifles and did some finsihing touches to them. He called them K14 and K15. I purchased one each of his and they did what he said they would.

Just for laughs it would be interesting to have a couple of those hammer forged barrels chambered by a top BR smith and fitted to a BR rig to see how well they did.

In most cases we wouldn't be able to see meaningful differences between most of these barrels unless they were put in suitable platforms for really good testing. As far as hammer forged barrels, if they were better or as good as the best button and cut rifled barrels, competitive shooters would be using them, they might be good but not good enough.

I kicked off this discussion and have read everyone's opinions as well as all of the articles and links. All is VERY interesting and educational. The main gist of the articles is that the cost of the machine (not to mention the learning curve to use it) is the limiting factor here. Figuring a base cost of $1,000,000.00 to get the machine (assuming you know what you're doing when you get it and start making barrels), you'd have to make nearly 3100 barrels to get to a similar price point to what is offered by either button-rifled or cut-rifled barrels.
The accuracy of the long-time hammer-forged rifles (Sako, Tika, and several of the other makers mentioned in comments)leads me to believe that if someone did make the investment and learned to use the machine, they could offer competitive barrels at a competitive price.
I was lucky enough to tour the Sako plant some 13 years ago and remember seeing them making the barrels. One of the questions we asked was if they used a different machine to make Sako barrels vs the Tikka barrels, the answer was no. They had three machines side by side making barrels.
After seeing the entire process, from raw steel and wood to the testing of each firearm, I was impressed. I can only assume that other European makers do much the same with their firearms and I would hope that the American makers (Ruger, Remington etc) would start to follow their lead. Reports from many users here of the accuracy of Ruger products seems to lead me to believe that at least ONE of the US makers is getting their stuff in order.
If the owners of the hammer forging machines had any excess production capacity, it would be interesting to see what they could turn out for the benchrest crowd.

Perhaps this question should be asked of Mule Deer then seeing how he has knowledge of the Germans and their rifles. Do any of them shoot bench rest comps and if they do, what are they using for barrels/actions and what size groups do they shoot compared to what we see here ?

I'm not JB but I am a bit familiar with Germans and their shooting. There are a few German shooters that shoot skeet, a few that shoot trap, and I would guess a few that shoot benchrest. The numbers would be very small though. The most popular shooting game in Germany is DJV shooting, DJV standing for Deutsche Jagd Verbund translated as German Hunting Association. For the most part, the competitions involve simply hunting firearms and not the specialty items we see here. DJV shooting is more similar to Silhouette shooting than any other of our shooting competitions.

I did a short google search for comp shooting in Germany that didn't reveal anything for centerfire shooting, but did show some 22lr.

That's highly unlikely. Where exactly would a competitive shooter go to get himself a nice hammer-forged barrel to test out, except from a factory that won't sell him one in the first place?

From what I've seen of competitive shooters, very few are actually doing anything original at all--they simply copy what the guy who beat them did, or else follow tradition.

Hammer forged barrels are available for testing everyday. You get them from Remington, Ruger, and Weatherby to name a few.

Some of the benchresters purchase from these companies for their hunting rifles. Have we heard of any of them pulling a 26" factory barrel, having it cut and rechambered to use in competition?

Are you saying I can buy an un-chambered hammer forged barrel from ANY of those makers ?

IF they were as good, someone would step up to the plate and start building them for the aftermarket trade. Look how many Remington take off barrels are for sale and we replace them with "better" barrels.

I have replaced at least 10 factory Remington barrels and ALL the new barrels shot better than the original factory barrels. I have never pulled a Tikka barrel off . I have removed one Sako barrel and replaced it (a Bofors off a Finnbear). I don't know if the Sako was a hammer forged barrel or a button barrel. Savage uses Button rifled barrels and we know how good they shoot.

I am not saying that you cannot get a good HF barrel but I don't think you can ever approach the uniformity in shooting that you get with the top button and most any cut rifled barrel.

There are MANY great barrel makers turning out barrels that can be competitive in BR disciplines. It is true that most people buy what seems to be winning regardless the quality of the next brand.

As another item of interest. I have never met a group of more conceited and arrogant men in my life than barrel makers and I have met many of them. One who stands out as NOT being such is Danny Pederson. I don't, however, think his barrels are any better than most of the other cut barrels being made. I know of a couple of barrel makers that got into it just because they knew their sh-t didn't stink and had to prove it. All of these are button rifle guys. Might be some cut rifled guys who fit this same mold!

$1 million isn't really that much from an equipment standpoint, I'll bet just about any of the cut or button rifled makers have more invested in their equipment than that. If hammer forging machines were capable of turning out true benchrest quality barrels then someone would have bought a machine and have it running right now, but they don't. A barrel that will shoot 3 shots into 1/2" or 3/4" on a Sako or Tikka is still a long way from something that's going to win on the target circuit.

A hammer forging machine may cost $1 million, but what it offers is economy of scale, the price is quickly amortized over the number of barrels it's capable of producing. In the same way a Boeing 777 costs $200 million but quickly makes it back by hauling a bunch of people. Given that most all of the high end barrel makers are backed up by 4-6 months right now, a million dollar investment to be able to turn out benchrest quality barrels and stem that backlog would be an easy sell right now.

If a hammer forge were capable of producing barrels to compete quality wise with the top end cut and button rifled barrels then someone would be doing it, simple as that.

Have you ever heard of an on purpose un-chambered rifle sold? I didn't think so.

I must be misunderstanding what you are saying then Rich. I thought you were saying that I could call Remington, Ruger or Winchester and buy a rifled, but not chambered barrel just like I could from any of the custom tube makers.

I have tested blank hammer forged barrels from Winchester and from Hammerli. The Winchester was a full blank match rifle barrel and the Hammerli's were chambered but unthreaded and uncontoured. In both cases I got to try these barrels because I knew someone who could get them. The three barrels were as good as any barrel I have seen. I contoured one of the Swiss barrels to a heavy sporter contour (#4 Shilen)and there was no sign of any warpage or distortion. The other was turned to a HV contour and was set back (1/2 inch) and re-chambered to change the throat configuration. It is as accurate as any 308 I have owned. The Winchester was chambered and used as it was. Again, it shot every bit as well as the Shilen it replaced.
I do believe companies like Steyr, Hammerli, Sako etc. could produce as fine a barrel as can be bought but they choose not to sell barrels for the gunsmithing trade.
By the way, the Winchester barrel was easy to work with and seemed no different than any CM barrel but the Swiss barrels were TOUGH. They machined with considerable difficulty compared to the average 4140 barrel. GD

greydog,

Were they benchrest accurate?

Here in Oz , Lithgow Small Arms Factory used to make target rifles (Omark 44) and also hammer-forged match barrels for the trade, under the Black Mountain brand name. They enjoyed a good reputation for accuracy, especially in long range competition.

Recently the current management has announced that they are again offering hammer-forged barrels under the Black Mountain name, finished or unfinished, with options including chrome lining. It will be interesting to see how these go for accuracy. All I've seen of it so far is this, which doesn't look bad: http://www.lithgowarms.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Target_Graphic_final.pdf

If I was replacing a barrel and headed for top notch accuracy, I certainly would not accept a Sako/Tikka type barrel. IE hammer forged.

They certainly are likely as good or better than other factory barrels, but if talking top notch accuracy hammer forged, is out the window IMHO.

For the use of most folks ability, they should be able to exceed that ability.

I"ve not seen a factory tube not be able to shoot 2 moa ever. And thats more than enough for game at suitable distances for the majority of people.

http://www.firearmsid.com/feature%20articles/rifledbarrelmanuf/barrelmanufacture.htm

This article is a good read.

Interesting how a hammer forge introduces a special kind of radial stress to a barrel that may not be able to be relieved. The added complication now is the fact that they can put the chamber on the manderal, which lowers the cost of making the rifle, but again adds more stress at a key point.

I think the only way to test the performance difference would be to take a "lot" of highly consistent bullets, and take multiple cut, and hammer forged barrels mounted in very, very stable actions and the do bot cold, and hot string testing with them.

I'm not sure that everyone understands that many bench shooters rapid fire which heats up a barrel which can make it walk.

It really the definition of top notch accuracy I am curious about. It means different things to different people. For BR a barrel that runs 0.05 MOA worse than another would be critical. But for me on a sporter 0.05 MOA one way the other wouldn't matter to me.



Back a few posts I wondered what a hammer forged barrel well chambered on a BR rig would do because, if a cut rifle barrel did .1MOA and a hammer forged barrel did 1.05 MOA, well then I might consider using a hammer forged barrel on my next sporter build if it cost considerably less. If the cut rifle did 0.1 MOA and the hammer forged barrel was .3 MOA, well forget it I would spend the extra dollars for better barrel.

Not all cut/button are benchrest accurate either.

BR circles tell stories about cutting up 10 barrels at a time to find one that's capable for what they need.

It's not like cut/button guarantees you anything at all when it comes to accuracy.

Very true. I think it's the care and time put into our button/cut rifled barrels that separates them from "production" HF barrels. I'm not aware of any HF factory barrels that are "air gauged" or hand lapped at the factory to ensure tight specs from breech to muzzle by any manufacturer before it leaves the door. As far as induced stress from either rifling method (cut or buttoned), I'm sure that cut rifling induces next to nothing during the process, but folks are not taking into account the stress induced during the deep hole drilling process. Obviously, stress (heat) is introduced to the interior of the barrel during this process, so unless someone is out there making barrels with an EDM, there will be stress regardless of the method used to rifle a barrel. IMO, if a barrel is properly stress relieved after rifling/contouring/fluting, the rifling method is mostly moot.

I shoot 1000 yard benchrest and much prefer cut rifled barrels from either Krieger, Brux or Bartlein (but I sure can't give you any kind of a valid reason why!)

But there's nothing in the WAY a HF barrel that would preclude a concerned mfg from air gauging their HF barrels either.

Look up how Steyr does their barrels , it will be a eye opener. Sako barrels are lapped as are Steyr, Steyr barrel production

Its simply not practical for a custom barrel maker to spend millions on complex HF machinery when for much less he can pull or cut rifle a barrel.

LOL, and 90% of the people buying those titlest 681s Tiger used couldn't hit them anyway.

A properly stress relived button barrel will not walk after a 30rnd mag dump.

Just sayin.

My Steyr Scout shoots the tacks out of the target. Thirty years ago the Steyr SSG had a reputation for walking rounds as it heated up, so they've obviously figured out how to avoid that. The SSG almost became the US Army's sniper rifle but for that.

I have/have had, Shilens, Schneiders, Pac Nor and a Hart in light contours. They all "walked" when hot. They also tended to shoot different bullets to different point of impacts at 100 yards. I haven't seen that with my Kriegers, Chanlynns and Classics. I guess all those other guys don't know how to stress relieve their barrels.

But the other 9 will more than likely shoot under 1/2"......

Tough crowd.......

That's it. It's about the time/care/effort/lapping that could all be done to a HF barrel if desired.

Very informative article, if you take this man's account at face value then cut rifling is better than button.


History of hammer forge barrels:
http://firearmshistory.blogspot.com/2010/05/rifling-manufacturing-hammer-forged.html

This thread sure would look different if it was posted up in the 'freak show'.
I wonder if Ruger, Remington, and Winchester all switched to Krieger, Bartlain, or Lilja barrels overnight and said nothing, how many people would 'really' see a difference? From the hunters I see sighting in their rifles at the range, I'm betting only one in five.
As to benchrest accuracy, they are just anal to everything that they do. Few people outside loonies take the time or money to even comprehend most of their practices. Rifles shoot in the .1's are great, .2's marginal, and .3's tomato stakes. Like posted earlier the nine barrels that got culled from the herd would still make guns better than the average shmo could take advantage of.

If this were posted in the freak show you would need one page to explain what rifling is first.

I cannot say they were BR accurate because I didn't use them on BR rifles. They were installed on Winchester Model 70 actions and conventionally bedded. One of the Swiss barrels is on a Springfield 03 and although this is a nice old action, it isn't going to produce BR accuracy. The other Swiss barrel is on a 1965 Model 70 and is capable of sub .5 moa groups at 300M. I have shot enough .3 moa 5 shot groups with it that they are not exceptional.
One thing I have to mention is that the Swiss barrels were made with the chamber hammer-forged with the bore. The chambers were exceptionally straight and concentric but one had a barely visible ripple in the throat. I doubt that this "ripple" was more than a couple of tenths in dimension but there was a definite distortion of the reflected light. This barrel shot considerably better after being set back and re-chambered.
The other barrel was perfect and shot well as it was. The Winchester barrel was a blank.
I have no doubt, if one could get a good hammer-forged barrel in a 6mm 14 twist, chamber it for a PPC, install it on a good BR action, and glue it into a glass stock, it would shoot as well as any other.
I have to mention as well, some of the most accurate factory rifles I have seen were Remington factory rifles with a hammer-forged barrel. A bullet-maker named Al Mirdoch had a Remington 700 Varminter of about 1977 vintage which shot incredibly well. That hammer-forged barrel fired a lot of sub.2 groups in registered competitions including one of .080. I believe he also shot a .160 something at 200yd with that rifle. An impressive feat with a rifle which was not a BR rifle in any sense (factory stock etc.)
I hear a lot about the stresses inherent in a hammered barrel but have seen no evidence of this when re-contouring hammer-forged barrels. On the contrary, they appear to be quite stress-free and do not warp at all. The same thing is true when fluting them; there is no appreciable movement.
I HAVE seen some real crappy hammer-forged barrels but I have seen cut and buttoned barrels which were equally poor. It is hard to say whether the worst warping barrels were cut or buttoned because I have worked with individual samples of each which were so bad they were practically unusable.
The thing is, one doesn't really have to worry about it because there is, to my knowledge, no one selling a hammer-forged barrel suitable (proper caliber and twist rate) for use for short range BR. Cut-rifled and button-rifled barrels are readily available and affordable so it is unlikely anyone is going to try and break into the market with a hammer-forged BR barrel. Regards, Bill

Bill;
Happy New Year to you sir, I hope this finds you and yours doing well.

I just wanted to say a quick thanks again for sharing your knowledge with us here and for letting me call you and pick your brain too.

It's been most helpful and educational every time sir and I very much appreciate it.

All the best to you and yours in 2015 Bill.

Dwayne

Hmm, I have rifles barreled with Hart, Douglas and Shilen as well as factory barrels. One of the most accurate sporting rifles Ive ever shot...a factory push feed md 70 .308.. belonged to a friend, asked me to shoot it in so he could go deer hunting, had an old scope with a plain post reticle, was like looking through a sewer pipe. I bought two boxes of factory ammo one cheap and the other premium. I shot several three shot groups with both kinds of ammo. The largest group was a bit less than .400 the smallest was .201 [100 yds]Also about a 6lb creepy trigger. While I agree that several things can and do often affect accuracy i.e., gunsmith, tooling as well as bedding etc. the single most important thing to avoid is a rifle that has a resident witch! If you are unfortunate enough to have such a rifle I suggest you cut in at least three pieces, burn it in a hot fire and drop it in the ocean in at least 500' of blue water. Oh, and I like all three brands of barrels, all are on sporting rifles ranging from 22-250AI to 9.3X62

Let's do it this way...
Blazer
Sako
Merkle
Steyr
Sauer
H&K
Tikka...
Have what variable in common?

None of those makes of barrel have been competitive on the benchrest circuit?

Whity chit!
Same argument... some say that the induced stresses are so severe in this process that they never can be entirely eliminated. As a result, the bench rest crowd won�t touch a hammer forged barrel. However, I can�t help but wonder how valid this belief actually is, and whether anyone has actually tried it. Remington barrels, which always had a reputation for accuracy, used to be hammer forged, including those used in the XP-100. I know I always had excellent results with original XP barrels.
The CHF machine cost 8-9 million dollars, pre setup. Not many custom BR shops can afford that. Doesn't mean that any button rifled barrel is superior.

I know about the set up costs, and I shoot many hammer forged barrels that are very good. But if we want to compare absolute performance potential we'd need to secure a few dozen "best quality" hammer forged barrels in appropriate contours and fit them to competitive BR rigs.

For whatever it's worth, when talking Remington barrels, their most accurate rifles use button rifled barrels from the custom shop. Those would be the 40X rifles.

a ford focus could be made to run with drag racers given enough time attention, and investment.
No button rifled barrel is ever going to come off the machine as smoothly finished or accurate or consistent as a CHF bbl.
That doesn't mean a few dozen operations, polishing, lapping exc exc ad nauseum, will make it as accurate.
But its still not going to be a consistantly manufactured.
And again...considering that CHF barrels are attached to such inaccurate turds like...SSG69, Blazer TacII, Sig 3000...

Use what you prefer & move on.....holy phuc!!

"No button rifled barrel is ever going to come off the machine as smoothly finished or accurate or consistent as a CHF bbl."

This is amazing, there are no words.....

Oh, I believe there are.

Simply not true. Of course, the manufacturing process is different, but when a button or cut rifled barrel "comes off the line" ie completely finished and ready to ship, that statement is completely false. Remington probably makes more HF barrels than anyone and they use button rifled barrels on their most accurate guns. Some of their most expensive Tactical/LE rifles use 40X barrels.

Quick response, or addressed to me?

QR.

I thought so, but I wanted to make sure we didn't get cross threaded somehow.

My 40X and its buttoned barrel do quite well.

I'm quite confident that you're not nuts from reading your posts and I'm thinking perhaps the poster making claims about superior HF barrels was just trolling.

He made a similar statement a while back about there being no way a button rifled barrel could be as uniform. So I mentioned Douglas air gauged barrels that hold within .0001" and that's without lapping.

Douglas doesn't lap their barrels and don't recommend it.

Great news about Douglas not lapping their barrels and I'm sure they shoot very well. Me, I'll just keep buying custom barrels from those who take the extra time for a perfect interior finish even if it costs a little extra.

Yes they do shoot very well.

There's a reason they don't recommend it. They'll tell you why if you take the time to have a chat with them.

Well one thing I heard was that they felt that others lapped their bore because they needed to be bring their barrels up to par and that theirs (Douglas) didn't need to because they were made right to begin with and that if a barrel was made right to begin with it would need to be lapped. That was relayed to the board by dave7mm after talking with Douglas about why they didn't need to be finish lapped. Nothing against you personally sir, but I don't believe that for a minute. Hart, Lilja, Schneider, Broughton, Shilen, Spencer and a few other top makers win BR contests and they all finish lap their barrels.

This thread reminds me of why Velcro sneakers were invented.

Yep. If you want a good value for a high quality hunting barrel, Douglas is a good option. If you want to win BR matches, best you look else where.

Laffin. Oh and I forgot to mention that the top cut rifled barrels (Krieger, Bartlein and Brux) are finished lapped as well. Not sure if Benchmark are cut or buttoned, but you can add them to the list of inferior barrels that need lapping to bring them up to the Douglas standard.

No problem, not taken personally. I'll just relate what I saw and why I believe what I was told.

A number of years ago I worked in WV not far from Big Tyler. Any time I had free I would go to visit Douglas. Spent a good bit of time there asking more questions than I should have while taking "tours".

One difference in Douglas is that they make their own buttons, and they are different than any others. The main difference is that their buttons are much shorter, and the ribs that displace the grooves are really short. Their buttons are also polished to a mirror finish, more so than others.

This finish is transferred to the barrel during rifling. The smoother the button, the smoother the finish. The buttons shine like a chrome. The short ribs also allow one button to cut any twist rate in a given bore since the twist is imparted by the rifling machine, including gain twist (although I don't think they make gain twist barrels), and not the longer, helical ribs of some others. Seems I've read that others use buttons where the twist is also imparted by the rifling machine so can't say what the difference might be.

The steel is heat treated several times during manufacturing as I'm sure others are, and a Rockwell machine is used along the way. Once the barrel is rifled, tapered steel pegs are driven in both ends of the barrel and the barrel is stress relieved.

The barrel is then inspected for straightness by looking through the bore at black and white illuminated lines that reflect a checkerboard pattern inside the barrel. If the pattern isn't symmetrical, the bore isn't straight.

If all is good, the ends are trimmed and the barrel is air gauged. If not, it's junk. The tightest end is marked as the muzzle end.

I once took a Sako action in for a friend to have barreled in 7RUM. I asked how long I could expect to wait and was told a couple of weeks. It was my last hitch in WV and I told Randy (If I recall correctly) that he would have to send it to me since this was my last go 'round in WV and I would be leaving in a week.

He told me to wait a minute, got up from his desk and walked out of his office. I went to the restroom. When I came out, he says, "If you want to see that barrel go on, you better get some glasses on and get to the shop".

When I got in the shop they already had a rough blank in a lathe turning both ends and the middle down to fit in the CNC machine.

As soon as that was complete, the barrel was handed off to another fellow who took it to a CNC machine and chucked it up. He asked what taper I wanted, closed the door, punched in the info, and we watched as the barrel was turned down in what seemed like about 3 minutes. Their lathe has a double roller steady rest for the middle. As the cutter passes, one steady opens to allow the cutter to pass, then closes while the other steady opens for the cutter to pass so that the barrel is always supported in the middle. Again, I'm certain all barrel manufacturers have a similar setup.

The barrel was removed and taken to another lathe where the threads were cut and the barrel cut to length. I was asked what crown I wanted - 11� target - and the barrel was crowned. From there it went to yet another lathe where it was chambered. This took the most time.

After chambering, the barrel was screwed on the action and checked for headspace, then removed.

Now came the finish, as-is, blasted, or brushed? I asked for brushed, so the barrel markings were applied and handles of sorts were attached to each end. A long, loose, belt sander was used to finish the barrel, the handles allowing the barrel to spin when against the sanding belt.

The barrel was again screwed on the action and was ready for test firing. A hurried search for 7RUM ammo came up without, so no test fire was possible. The fellow who did all but the initial cuts said he wasn't concerned, that this was a good chamber and it would be a good shooter.

Total time from rough blank to the barreled action was about 2-1/2 to 3 hours if I recall.

Getting back to the questions and answers, one I asked was about cryogenic treating. Douglas had tried several barrels and found no difference in accuracy. They attributed this to the barrels already being stress relieved, so there was nothing to improve.

When asked about lapping, I was told, "Go ahead if you want to ruin the barrel". Their take, from splitting barrels and looking under magnification, was that the finish imparted to the barrel by the exceptionally smooth buttons was about as good as it gets, and since the barrels are air gauged, there wouldn't be any lumps and bumps along the way in the bore. That being said, they do have different grades of barrels that could have some amount of tightness or looseness.

I also asked about sponsoring BR shooters or others. They did that in times past, until they discovered shooters either not divulging the barrel maker, or incorrectly giving credit.

Another question was why the 45� chamfer at the muzzle. They seem to think the chamfer reduces the force on the base of the bullet as it exits the muzzle by half, possibly reducing deflection.

I may not have all the details correct and some may be flat out wrong, or even the sequences may not be correct. It's been nearly 10 years since I was last there and memory isn't all it's cracked up to be at times and I didn't take notes.

As I've stated above in places, I'm sure many barrel makers use many of the same steps and processes during their barrel manufacture, and obviously some go farther.

I never have shot that 7RUM, but my friend is well pleased with the results. I also got a 25-06 barrel for another buddy, but I wasn't paying attention and picked up a short 22" Mountain Rifle barrel for a 700. I don't think that barrel did any better than the factory barrel.

The only Douglas barrel I own that I know of is on my .500 Linebaugh pistol.

Interesting....

That was great info and interesting too. Regarding the cyro treatment, Hart told me that Crucible Steel tested 416R Stainless Steel and told them that cyro treatment basically has no effect with regard to relieving any more stresses than a barrel that was properly stress relieved in the first place. Had no effect on accuracy, barrel life or ease of cleaning. The only thing, according to Hart, that it might help with was the ease of machining such as contouring, fluting and chambering. They (Hart) said that the only reason they offer cyro treatment for their customers is that their customers believe the advertising claims, so they offer it to them. Hart doesn't believe in the "barrel break-in" process either because of the lapping process they do makes it un-necessary.

I do have one question about the way Douglas installs barrels and that is what do they do to the action (truing, squaring ) before they install a barrel ?

Thank you.

Douglas said pretty much the same thing about cryo treatment and "barrel break-in".

As far as any truing on that L64(L63?), I can't tell you. I don't remember the guy doing anything in particular, although I'm ignorant of the process, so he may have done checks and I didn't understand or was unaware of what he was doing.

I don't recall the action ever being in any sort of a jig, lathe, or mill. Nothing was done to the action itself that I remember. I do remember that when Randy saw the Sako action, he asked, "Where did you get that"?, then proceeded to carefully inspect it all over. He said it didn't look like it ever had a barrel on it and my buddy had told me he had had it since the mid '60's and didn't know it to ever have a barrel on it either.

It could be that any truing or squaring is only done on request.

More than likely they might do some squaring up if you request it. I know Hart, as part of their rebarreling service, trues up the receiver face, bolt face (as they say "if needed"), recut the action threads and laps the bolt lugs for even contact. There are a lot of barrel makers that don't do any of that, or just recut the action threads, unless you request an action truing job. Hart told me that with Remington's, the only thing that is really needed is to make sure the receiver face is true/squared which they do anyway as most Remington's are pretty darn straight and true to begin with due to the CNC machinery that is used to make them. One of the reasons I like Hart so much is that they are straight forward and honest with the work they do and what is really needed to make a rifle shoot. IMO, anything beyond what Hart does as part of their rebarrel service will be costly ( installing bolt sleeves and reaming the action raceway afterwards ) will push the price up to the point that I would consider just going with a custom action instead of pouring big bucks into a Remington action. I think I read recently that Robert Gradous only uses custom actions now as it's to costly and time consuming to fix up a stock Remington action. He builds some extremely accurate rifles and uses Surgeon actions or most any other custom Remington "clone" action.

I also asked his opining of barrel makers at the time and he replied with, "There are only 3 barrel makers, Douglas, Hart, and Shilen".

I've got a couple of Shilen barrels from the late '60's that shoot quite well to this day. Don't know if those were lapped or not. I may have a Hart barrel on one custom rifle but not sure. I've never shot that one but have little doubt it will shoot regardless of who made the barrel.

Would it be that it is more cost effective to run a button through for a special order twist?

Mmm.....I'm wondering what Lilja and Krieger would say about that

Never had a Hart.Had a Shilen in 280 and it shot well but no better than the several Douglas barrels I've had.

Common knowledge that Douglas tubes are stress relieved several times,from raw stock to fineshed contour by the time they end up on your rifle.In a hunting rifle they are still my first choice in a button rifled tube. Just too simple.

Well, since it was his opinion they'll probably take it for what it's worth, and it might have something to do with the "Holy Trinity" of barrel markers being in business as long as they have been.

Good barrels are popping up all over the place these days such as Benchmark, Brux and Bartlein. Maybe they have been in business longer than I think, but I haven't heard of these guys say 10 years ago. They are all winning big matches as well so it's not like you have to wait on 3-4 barrel makers to come through to make an accurate rig.

There are a bunch that weren't around 10 years ago, and another bunch that weren't around 20 years ago, and hardly any that were around 30 years ago.

Don't know when the Big 3 started, but it's been a while.

No one can afford to make a bad barrel these days. It's all what anyone who buys a barrel wants to believe is best and how much effort they will put into either making it work or making it fail. Seen far too many people blame everything but themselves for most of their woes.

We're in the golden age of barrel making right now I think. There are a lot of great barrel makers out there now and what I like is that the newer guys aren't resting on their laurels, they're updating the barrel making process with technology instead of just relying upon the old tried and true from 50 years ago. My last three barrels have been Bartlein 5R's and from the way these shoot I can't see any reason to go anywhere else for a barrel. That they were all three screwed together by great gun plumbers surely helps.

I will say that a barrel that wasn't lapped by the manufacturer will never be installed on one of my rifles, no matter how much they claim their special process makes it unnecessary.

All I can say is I've had 3 dogless installed by 3 different smiths, including one recently deceased here. And I'll never pay for that junk again. 100 bucks savings has bitten me every last time.

FWIW, Douglas has been doing quite well in the 600 and 1000 yard benchrest of late. They have won many matches in the past few years. The late Mickey Coleman was a big fan of Douglas barrels. They have not been used in short range benchrest to the point they are listed in the winning equipment, at least not yet. On many caliber/twist choices, they use a double button process which seems to help interior finish and consistancy.

I looked at the Douglas website yesterday and it looks like if you order a finish turned (what Mickey Coleman recommended), Premium XX Stainless barrel, you're looking at $350 for the blank. I'm not seeing any cost savings by using a Douglas.

Broughton- $370
Hart- $315
Krieger- $325
Lilja- $345
Bartlien- $325

But you might get the Douglas in less than a year.

Yup, I never see the big picture...

Three weeks for mine.

Most of the barrel makers are catching up.

Douglas may not lap their barrels but they do, on occasion, make one which would have benefitted from this finishing touch. In fact, I have significantly improved a mediocre-performing Douglas barrel by lapping it. I like Douglas barrels though and definitely like their contours better than most. GD

Benchmark are buttoned with a capital B in Buttoned.

I have barrels from about a dozen different aftermarket barrelmakers from .17 through .25 caliber........buttoned, cut, and hammerforged. Shooting them I can't tell which is which. Fouling isn't a problem with any of them, but my chambers have very smooth throats. The one barrel that doesn't copper at all, and it's an AI running over 4000fps, is buttoned.

Used to be that PacNor supermatch barrels were lapped, the std grade wasn't. During one conversation with Chris in the early 90's I asked him the difference between the supermatch and standard........he said about 30 rounds through a std. and you've got a supermatch.

Yep.

I talked to PN about the difference a few months ago.

He said no difference, the SM is just lapped more. Which I already knew, but asked any way.

I have used both. I can't tell any difference after running a couple boxes of ammo down them....

I guess they too are inferior to Douglas as they state on their website that they are hand lapped in a vein attempt to bring them up to a Douglas class leading industry standard. They must have some proprietary button making technology that the others haven't figured out yet.

You have a hammer forged barrel from an aftermarket barrel maker? Which one is that?

It's an H&K barrel, on an AR15, came as a blank.

Lots of AR barrels are thusly created.

I sent Bill Wylde an upper and he put this barrel on. Also bought another H&K blank from him.

Daniel Defense used Hammer forged bbl's

Have you even seen a completely non-processed HF barrel? My GS had some very raw ones he was making up. As-in they were not yet turned at all, nothing. Those thing looked very rough...but once turned down and profiled, they looks great. It was interesting to see.