I picked up a tubegun in 308 a couple of months ago. It is an ellesio RTS with a rem 700 LTR barreled action with a jewel trigger. I had great hopes for it but it has not proven to be as accurate as I had hoped. Factory and reloads alike the best I can get is 3/4-1” groups at 100 yards.

Now I have been planning on fixing it up. I have been looking at a bartlein 1-11.25 twist #14 barrel. My decision now is do I get the remington action I already have trued up and rebarrel or should I go all out and get a custom action. The pierce engineering tube gun action. They where designed to work with the RTS chassis.

So whats the better way to go, drop the cash for a custom action and barrel or safe the money, true up the face of the remington action and install the barrel, and use the money saved to invest in a suppressor.

How much of a difference does a custom action really make?

Josh,
I would guess the intended purpose for the rifle and how much you are willing to spend for that purpose would dictate which way to go. However, I can tell you that a truly well trued Remington will shoot right along side of custom actions.
In looking at the cost of truing, real truing, plus the original cost of the rem factory action, you could buy a custom action. Both would require a custom barrel.
It really just boils down to how much you are willing to spend for that last.01 reduction in groups size.
I have both trued Rems, 40-xs and custom actions, when the work is done correctly there just isn't a lot of difference.

Just one guy's opinion.

Bill

I have both custom and trued and there are pros/cons to each. When Remingtons are trued, you really need to ask what is being performed. If all that is being performed is truing lugs, abutments, face and threads, you still may have the issues of enlarged firing pin hole on bolt face as well as incorrect bolt timing regarding camming. These are questions I would pose to your smith. However, the parts and footprint of a Remington action are like a small-block Chevy and will always exist. A worked over Remington will feel much smoother/easier to manipulate but still doesn't have quite the feel of a custom action.

Custom actions are nice but I've yet to find one that has all features I'm looking for. You also run into compatibility issues even though they are Remington clones. Think scope bases and triggers here.

Lastly, ask yourself this. Are you into keeping your rifle long term or selling it when you get bored with it? Trued Remingtons do not have the resale of a custom action. Think about this if you ever decide to sell. Good luck with your project.

For a hunting rifle, IMO, anything beyond squaring up the receiver face, bolt face, cleaning up the threads and lapping in the lugs (or better yet, cutting the bolt lugs for even contact) is wasting money that you'll very likely never see an accuracy improvement over a custom action. Even if the smith charged you $250 dollars for this (on the high side, very high side) you'll be saving yourself hundreds over a custom clone. Hart Barrels does most of what I just outlined included in their price of a re-barrel job.

Owned both - no issues with accuracy.
Want the best? Custom. ROI? Custom.

Limited funds? Not shooting BR?
Un-trued Remington w custom bbl, stock, and Shilen or Timney.
Yes, spin a good bbl well chambered on and smile.

You can also do the same w a Howa or Vanguard 2 and get a one piece bolt.

Or simply buy a Tikka and only change stock

Josh,
Send it to Pierce.

My Pierce action is wonderful and the rifle John built for me is the most accurate I have ever fired.

John spent a lot of time getting the tube guns right. This article explains it well:

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com...hoots-in-the-ones-with-factory-6br-ammo/

405wcf

With a custom action - you're paying to have something that's perfect.

Here's the question - what happens if it isn't? Then it's a he said/he said with the maker and gunsmith about who can or can not read a dial indicator (anyone worth their salt is going to verify the action is true - regardless of custom mfg).

You either have to pay to have a custom trued or wait for a replacement.

OR

You can simply true the Remington by a good smith and KNOW it's right without the wait/fuss. Sure, if you try and resell it's not the same/sexy as stating you're selling a custom but you're gonna lose your butt anyway so...

Even with a 700 there is no guarantee that it will be trued.......even by a good smith, It would be nice to be able to trust a smith to true it correctly but how is the end user going to verify?

If it shoots little bitty groups...but even if they didn't touch it and just spun a new barrel on it may still shoot little bitty groups...Get it, shoot it, if you're happy then move on to the next build

Never been sorry I went with custom barreled actions.

Predictability is the #1 appreciated trait of customs.

I have 2 280 AI's being built right now.

One is on a Borden action and being chambered and barreled by Borden. Will have a Hart barrel and Jewell trigger. Per Jim's advice the barreled action will be sent to Tom Meradith to be bedded into a Macmillan stock.

Gun number 2 is being done by Redneck on a 700 action with a Timney trigger, Bartlein barrel, and Manners stock being also bedded by Tom Meradith.

Really have no expectations as to which rifle will be a better shooter. If cost is the determinant, it should clearly be the Borden. I have wanted a full custom Borden hunting rifle for years. I have also wanted to have Redneck do work on a rifle for me. He gave me advice on a previous rifle and I found him to be fairly priced, knowledgeable, and polite. We will see what happens. Will not be apples to apples as the Bartlein #3 taper will be beefier than the Hart #3 going on the Borden.

When I had my .300 RUM built, Greg Tannel told me in the end it would cost effective to get a new custom action. In the end he was right. The cost of working up a Remington makes it on par with the custom especially as the threads will be cut slightly larger, and the bolt and firing pin bushed.

The Remington when fully worked over is made to be as close to perfect as possible, whereas the custom is already perfect from the factory.

1:11.25" twist? Really? Somebody tossed the runes?

Or is supposed to be.

I've not spun bullets too fast

Re: Rem - if you are going to pay for trueness, hard to overlook custom as a base

True, I should have added that qualifier.

The group buy that Chad Dixon of Long Rifles has going over on Sniper's Hide is about as inexpensive of a truing job I've seen.
For around $750 you'll get his full boat of accurizing, 8-40 scope base holes, recoil lug resurfaced, bolt fluted, barrel chambered and installed, and a full cerakote job.

I've read right here that even custom actions, from time to time, need a touch up on the receiver face, although much less likely. In the tactical rifle builder circles, there is a guy name Mike Rescigno, owner of Tactical Operations, who builds rifles that are considered by many to be the most accurate tactical rifle made today. Many articles have been written about the extreme accuracy of his Tango 51. His rifles are guarantied to shoot 1/4" groups at 100 yrds using factory Federal Gold Medal Match ammo. Mike uses 700 actions and Krieger barrels. One of the things that Mike believes to contribute to the accuracy of his rifles is to "remove as much influence as possible the receiver has on a build...". He also believes that using absolutely min spec chamber reamers yields a more accurate rifle too.


[u][color:#000099][size:11pt]LINK[/size][/color][/u]

@OP, Depends on intended purpose. If you are strictly hunting, and it already shoots 1" or better with whatever you feed it, go kill stuff. If you are casual target shooting and money is a consideration, rework and rebarrel the Rem action. If money is no object and you want the smallest possible groups, as mentioned above, send it off to a reputable builder for a full custom build.

For me, if I wanted smaller groups, I would start with a new barrel. I've only had 5 or 6 custom barrels. But all of the custom barrels I've had installed to replace factory barrels shot significantly better than the factory barrels they replaced. "Significantly better" = smaller groups, easier load development, less picky about components, minimal fouling.

Josh,

What do you know about that gun's history?

Target guns can get shot a LOT more than hunting guns. The seller may have gotten all the good out of that barrel, rolled the gun rather than upgrading the tube.

First thing I'd do is look down the barrel with a Hawkeye borescope. That may tell the story. Was the action trued originally and can you contact the original smith?

Lots of questions...

DF

RD,
I'll have to raise the BS flag on this guarantee. It won't happen! You'd be surprised how many people would believe that.

As soon as I started reading RD's post, I thought to myself that's the guy in L.A. I don't remember were I read it but there was a post somewhere maybe the hide saying that guy is FOS and doesn't delieve. Either way I am with Butch.

Make me the third one in this camp!

IMHO it all depends on what accuracy you are after and at what distances to a bit.

Answer that and you will get your answer.

Being you have a factory barrel on there, I"d be happy to an extent with that.

A good tube should cut that in half more or less.

Truing will help and I would suspect a custom action might help even more.

But what are you after in the end?

Being that I've owned ARs that are far from custom that run around .3/.4 moa out to 600 yards, just because a good true barrel was put on, we really need to know what you are after.

Not what others want, what you want, regardless of if you need it in any of our opinions or not.

Not even close to a full action blueprint, as you said it's more an accurizing job!

I have both and can see no difference in accuracy. All things being "normal", I've always thought the quality of the work put into the chamber and barrel were more important.

Maybe the fine print of the guarantee states, based on a one shot group form a .25 caliber.

What am I missing? Here's what is done with his group buy:

A detailed list of services:
Tier One Action Work: (Work performed on a Kitamura MyCenter 2x CNC Vertical Machining Center-a process pioneered by LongRifles, Inc.)
Receiver Accurizing:
1. Resurface Receiver Ring square to bore centerline
2. Helically bore ID of receiver ring bore parallel/concentric to bore centerline
3. Resurface Lug abutments square to bore centerline
4. Qualify lug abutment/receiver ring height to 1.1350”
5. Interpolate/Thread Mill receiver ring to a thread pitch of 1.085-16tpi
6. Qualify Threads with custom built gauging- (we are the first shop to do this)
7. Truncate lead thread of receiver ring to mitigate galling during final assembly
8. Chamfer ID bore/receiver ring
9. Chamfer/relieve bottom of front scope base screw hole/receiver thread intersection.

Receiver Accurizing Options:
1. Helically bore and interpolate/Thread Mill Receiver scope base holes to 8-40tpi on the receiver bore centerline
2. Locate and drill dowel pin holes for pinned recoil lug

Bolt Accurizing/fluting: (Work performed on a Hardinge HLV Tool Room Lathe and HAAS VF1, 4-axis Machining Center)
1. Resurface rearward lug surfaces square to bolt centerline
2. Resurface bolt face square to bolt centerline
3. Mirror polish extractor shoes on factory M700 “floating” extractor

Bolt work Options:
1. Bolt fluting for cosmetic appeal/weight reduction. SIX flute pattern on all fluting work
A. High Helix Pattern
B. Std Helix Pattern
C. Straight Pattern

Barrel Fitting: (Work performed on a Doosan Mecatec 280N II slant bed CNC turning center and HAAS VF1 4 Axis CNC Vertical Machining Center)
1. Measure and document tennon geometry
2. Edit program to individual receiver dimensions
3. Profile barrel tennon
4. Thread tennon to fit receiver threads
5. Setup/select chamber reamer
6. Chamber barrel
7. Chamfer breech ring/entrance to chamber
8. Qualify Headspace to a value of GO+.001”/.002”
9. Cut to finish length
10. Crown ( choice of True 11* Tgt crown or Recessed 11* Hunter Crown)
11. CNC Engrave Cartridge Designation on Barrel Cylinder

Bolt timing
firing pin bushed
Bolt bushed or a new bolt ground and fitted!

His guarantee reminds me of Klienguenther back in the '90's. He guaranteed 1/2" groups at 100 yards with correct hand loads. I purchased one in 1977 and did get it to do half inch with a does H4831 and Sierra 175 grainers. After on jacket seperation on a deer's shoulder I switched to Nosler Partitions and never had a problem. In fact I never recovered one.

Maybe most folks didn't believe him. But I'm with you on the 1/4" stuff with factory ammo.

Butch, I take no offense to you or anyone else raising the BS flag. After all, I'm not the one making the claim. I guess I've have to make my point a little clearer, in that Mike builds one of the most accurate tactical rifles available today and many agree that he does as well. He uses 700 actions and that was my point, that a 700 can be made to shoot as accurately as anything out there, but more importantly, 700's also don't need to be completely rebuilt to achieve superb accuracy either.

Here is a little back and forth about his rifles, and the last post in the thread speaks to his accuracy claims. It was written by the owner of SH.


[u][size:14pt][color:#000099]LowLight[/color][/size][/u]

I’ve decided to go all in on the custom action. I talked to The guy at peirce engineering on the phone and I think we have a good plan started. The 1-11.25” bartlien was what they recomended for 155-175 match kings.

I am not planning on hunting with this rifle. I want something very accurate, and consistantly accurate. It will be for punching steel at varied distances and shooting tiny little groups in paper. I probably won’t do any competition but would never count it out.

The originaly rifle was actually shot very little, but it wasn’t done right from the start. The action wasn’t trued, they just turned down the recoil lug to fit in the tube chassis and went from there. I sold the barreled action to a guy looking for a tactical/hunter, it should fit him better.

My current plan is to have pierce screw on this bartlien barrel and chamber it with a no turn neck 308, throated for 155-175gr match kings with a COL of 2.85” to fit the magazine with a little spare room. Thread the end for a suppressor and send it back to me. I already pinned the scope rail and just need to screw it all together once it gets here.

Thanks for the insights guys.

Ackleyfan,
Gotcha. Thx

Rd,
No where did I say he did not build a good rifle. His 1/4" claims are BS.
Also if you read the post on the long rifles guy about what he does should take about 1/3 of what is printed. If you don't ream the raceway and either fit a bolt or bush the OD to match, you ain't got a properly machined receiver. I don't think bushing the boltface and using,say, a .062 firing pin, you are still missing the elements of a custom.
Josh,
I think you made a real great choice in the way you are going with the project.
Rd, I'm not jumping you, just giving my opinion on the guy you posted about and long rifle.

Another question: how much does a custom action like a Defiance Rebel weigh vs a Rem 700? Short action.

[/quote]

Maybe the fine print of the guarantee states, based on a one shot group form a .25 caliber. [/quote]

Well that would be a group of 0.0000

Right about the bolt bushing/sleeving. Without that step (or a larger diameter bolt as you point out) all the other squaring operations are meaningless. Without this step the top lug doesn't touch.

My post say 1/3 of what long rifle guy said means 2/3 of what he said was superfluous.