Howdy all, I have a Kimber Montana in 223 that I really like. It shoots 50gr V-Max really well but the 75 HPBT is proving more inconsistent. I will continue to work on the 75's and shoot a bunch of 50's but in the case that I want to rebarrel to a faster twist barrel I was hoping for some help.

1. What is a top quality gunsmith who will do the work on a Kimber Montana?

2. What brand of barrel maker, # of grooves, and twist (1-8" for me) would you choose.

3. What contour, stick with the factory or go up a tad i.e. SAS's Lilja contour which extends to .610" from the forearm to the muzzle.

Thank you all very much.

PacNor

Since you are a Pa boy and if by chance from Western Pa, Google Dave Bruno.

BR Shooter and makes more than a few for the BR crowd. Re barreled a Kimber for me along with a couple others that turned into solid shooters. Tell him what you want and you should be happy.



www.Davebrunorifles.net


One was a model 70 classic that he made into a .308W with a Bartlein. Solid 3/4 rifle and sometime scary accurate

Kimber was turned into a .300Savage with a Douglas. Hangs at an inch consistently. If you are looking for the campfire all day, every day 1/2 inch Kimber then you best buy one on the campfire. Although mine has done it, doesn't mean it is.

Battues always has GREAT recommendations!

Another for comparison is Tim Smith (www.smithscustomguns.com). Tim is building first class rifles for the 1000yd silhouette competitions in Ridgway, PA and has done several hunting/competition rifles for me and all are first class!

PennDog

I had Pacnor do mine. It's a 3 groove, 8 twist factory dupe .223AI. It shoots little groups. My .243 Montana will be headed there for a 1-8" twist .243AI barrel sooner or later. After a lot of thought about the Lilja with the heavier contour, I have to say I would not do it.

That must mean that you prefer the balance as it is which is totally understandable. It feels good to me from the factory but just looking at all of my options. The reason I am hesitant about a 223 AI on the Kimber is the feeding and having to notch the action port and modify the extractor and magbox for the 75 A-Max. Seems like some stuff can go wrong or it won't feed well. Lastly, what does a 3 groove do? It seems they are popular. Thanks.

Thanks everyone for the recommendations so far!

Not just the balance but the weight as well. The mods are pretty simple, but could be f'd up I suppose. You wouldn't need to modify the extractor. The ejector needs to be shortened though.

If you're gonna shoot 75 Amax in the SAAMI .223 you'd want to do the mods anyway. I lengthened the mag box a little too far back and am at the outer limits of the ejector and bolt stop, but it still works great.

When you see what the extra velocity and faster twist does on soft targets, you'll be glad you went with the AI. It's a pretty fun ride.

Try 70 grain VLDs in your current rifle. If they shoot well (and there's a good chance they will), you'll save a bunch of money dinking around with a new barrel. You will never see the difference between a standard 223 and the Ackley in the field.

With 50's at 3,725 and 40's at 4,030 you sure will.

And when you blow the bolt through your head from being overpressure you'll notice the difference, too.

223 AI gains something like 20 or 30 fps over the standard 223, when loaded to similar pressures. I.E. about the same as an extra inch of barrel.

How much pressure does it take to do that?

Totally depends. Plenty of reading out there on pressure related subjects, look it up. Needless to say, it's pretty silly to push the limit just to give some higher numbers on the chronograph. But everybody has to find that out for themselves. You'll figure it out someday, hopefully you don't hurt yourself getting there.

Just curious if you knew how much pressure it takes to blow a bolt out the back of a modern firearm is all.

Pacnor has done 3 for me and they all shot well. They'll do whatever contour you want.

Oh some other nasty things will probably happen before the rifle full on explodes, and I'm not really interested in finding out just when a Kimber will go full nuclear.

There's a pretty good safety margin built in to modern rifles.....and our ammo is part of that safety margin. Using borderline loads can go just fine for quite some time......but every once in a while something can happen. Too much neck tension, throw an extra grain of powder in on accident.....a little moisture in the chamber or dirt in the barrel....and suddenly you have an "incident".

Will it blow up the gun? Maybe, maybe not. Quite often not. But it doesn't take a catastrophic failure to ruin a hunt or a day out shooting. Stick a case in the chamber and tear off the rim trying to extract it. Blow a primer and get a face full of gas. When a guy sees a few of these things in person, the desire to load at the ragged edge goes away quickly.

It's not even so much about my own safety, but the safety of kids or friends when they shoot my rifles.

Yet you went straight to telling me my bolt with fly out through my head.

[bleep] it. I give up. It's like talking to a teenager.

Sure the bolt through the head might have been a bit of hyperbole. But what the hell is the difference between a bolt through the head, an exploded action or barrel, or an 80k psi blast of gas to the face when you're the shooter? It's bad news either way, doesn't really matter about the details. And the rifle coming apart and sending the bolt flying isn't just speculation.....there's a pretty good dent in a building made by a rifle bolt, behind the shooting bench at Western Powders just up the road from me, where one of their guys was testing a wildcat....the rifle came apart due to an overload and blew pieces all to hell and gone.

I re-barreled the Kimber for two reasons. One, the original in .338Fed was too much fun out of such a light rifle. The other was balance. In original form the front floated around more than I like. Never handled a smaller hole .223 and it may not be that big of a deal in that case.

However, have a Nula .223AI and wish I would have gone a little heavier on the barrel for balance. Don't have to mash a .223AI to have fun with it. Especially when I go 5plus rounds and forgo the the trimming. About the only advantage I see between the two, in that a friends Daughter has taken a few Deer very cleanly with her .223 and TTSX bullets. But even a little extra speed with negligible recoil increase, isn't a bad thing when it comes to shooting Deer with either.

Thanks for the recommendation, if I remember correctly did you buy a Kimber Montana that was rechambered to 223 AI? What were your experiences with it, accuracy modifications, loads etc if you don't mind sharing. Maybe you still have it, you may PM me if you'd rather not share here.

Thanks

My brother lives in a town of 250 people and there are half a dozen guys with lathes that know how to rebarrel their rifles.

I live in a town of 20,000, and I am the only one I know of.

It must have something to do with square miles.

----------------------------

I have built a 257 Roberts Ackley improved, a 257 Roberts Ackley improved Rimmed, and I just got the reamer and dies for 250 Krag Ackley improved.

Ackley, don't do it in 223.
Don't waste all that time forming, when 223 brass is so cheap.
It is so cheap, don't even trim, just throw away.
With a collet neck die, a 223 case dedicated to one rifle can go 25 shots before trimming.

Way to much emotion about other folks choice of rifles or cartridge.

His comment really wasn't about anyone's choice of rifle or cartridge.

OK, way to emotional about other folks choice to punch a 223 to 223AI, happy?

It wasn't about that either, but keep guessing.

GFY, Hig' didn't specify a barrel length so I sure the fu'k ain't guessing about anything.

It's about a Clueless Dumbfhuqk talking out of her Whining ass...about the things she "knows" the LEAST about. In other words,same old schit,different day.

"20-30fps"?!? I'm fhuqking crying I'm laughing sooooooooooo fhuqking hard!!!

Poor Poor STUPID Goat Fhuqk is reliably more than a touch shy,of hitting on all cylinders and can only do the best she can,with what incredibly fhuqking little she has to work with. Bless her heart.

If only in "fairness" I've got more 223AI's than she's ever fhuqking seen and just might have dabbled a Montucky or two,chambered same. Hint. That in both OEM setback/punchout and full Custom to increase RPM. Re-Hint. Lilja,Rock,PN,and Hart being just a few of them specimens. Re-re-hint. Twist rates running 7",7.7",8" and OEM 9". Re-re-re-hint.

Now to the OP's query,if only to cut to the fhuqking chase in the firsthand.

1) If a Plumber is stumped by a Montucky...RUN Forrest...fhuqking RUN. Hint.

2) 8" will do it all,in all atmospheres. Splendid spouts abound and it is nice to have sooooooooooo many choices. There is MUCHO Mojo in the various 3-grooved 1-8" buttoned offerings. Dan's wares are solid and Chris assuredly gets a scald on his. I'd shop closest to tidewater.(grin)

3) The Montucky OEM contour is money. The LAST fhuqking thing I'd do to said platform,is add contour or barrel length. I've got it on GOOD fhuqking authority,that my 1-8" Brux contour duped 6BR at 20",is THE one. Prolly because there ain't another place on the Planet,as steeped in Custom Montuckies,as my AO. Hint. I've only got said contour in 20,21 and 22". Re-Hint.

As an aside,there's also Ascents and Adirondacks lurking. I mighta coulda been around some 8400's too,in both OEM and Custom guise.

Weren't my intent to steal 20 or 30fps of someone's "thunder" nor the awe inspiring Barn Dent Recital's moxie. Laughing!

MAYBE we'll get "all" of the "details" of the "wildcat" that loosed a bolt and be able to correlate the rampant DUMBFHUQKEREY,to that which it is?!? Chambering,twist,throat,action,barrel,powder,brass,primer and "experience".



Still wondering...who chews her food for her?!?

Fhuqking WOW +P++!!!.....................

F'kn amazing that Stick is limited to one post per 24 hours and Claiborne has unlimited privileges.

Finally, you're getting close.

Yeah, I guess I left that out. It's 18" long. Takes a lot of blue dot to get those speeds, but it's worth it.

I believe he has. His load has been run through Quickload. But that's not really the point here.

BurninDupont,

I had a 223 AI Montana for a while. Was a very nice rifle, but didn't see a darned bit of difference between it and the 8 twist extended mag 223 AI I had at the same time. Or a 9 twist 223. This was on targets, prairie dogs, etc., out to 500+ yards. Occasionally out quite a bit further for fun.

I'll try and dig through my data and see what worked in that rifle; don't remember off the top of my head. Will get back to you.

'bean,

I hear good thangs about 18" 223AI's...but I've of course got 'em from 18 to 24".

Found a BWH 1-8" 3-grooved 18" Slim Middie in the corner,earlier this R&R and slammed it aboard as replacement for a C/L RRA Middie. Trouble was,it HATED the LBBMFER Fodder loaded in advance for the RRA spout(O/F RP 400's,lever,400's and 75 Hornie HPBT),so that approach was no joy. C-Note happily digested them at 2870fps as form fodder and the world is right again.

Schit always works out.




C-Note will grant 3075fps in formed cases with 75A-Max at 18" via 8" Rock. Hint.

Have several 20-inchers too and they assuredly is no fhuqking slouch. Been flogging on The Electric Chair purty good this pass and it's 20" spout grooves on 40's at 3950fps('335 of course). It's Twistchow,which is the only fhuqking reason it don't eat 75's like all of the rest.

10" PN.



THE Rock is 21" and is a phenom with 50's at 3750fps('335 of course). Again,it is Twistchow...so no 75's there. In nice conditions,it'll stay well under 2" at the 500yd line and happens to be one of the Legendary Egg Rifles.

1-14" Hart.



My Rocktucky happens to be 21" too and it lives on 75's at 3150fps('335 of course). 1-7" contour dupe,shortened a CH from OEM and Mike do cut rifling better than anyone else. Easy for me to say,as I've got 'em all. Hint.



Sporty Spice is a 1-8" 3-grooved PN and has long thrived on 75 A-Max at 3150fps.




My Samtucky(OEM spout left in 223 SAAMI as issued),squirts 75A-Max at 2875fps from it's 22" spout.

[img]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1280x1024q90/132/oi24.jpg[/img]

20,21 and 22" 'tucky's. Brux,Rock and OEM.

[img]http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1280x1024q90/673/sUCbuf.jpg[/img]

I could prolly go on and on....and on.(grin) But I'm on pins & fhuqking needles awaiting the harrowingly fascinating "details" of the highly vaunted Dented Barn Chronicles. Laughing! That despite my having much more than a "hunch",that it'll be a rather fhuqking awkward silence and them "particulars" will remain "Proprietary".

The Paper Hat Brigade's Secret Squirrel schit,is reliably THE most hilarious of their efforts. Wow +P+!!!

9" remains THE .224" bastard twist rate,in that nothing is for certain in it's regard. Some will make 75 A-Max sing and some won't,then atmospherics can skew same and piss in the punch. There isn't a better platform from which to fling that bullet from(Montucky) and that bullet simply has no fhuqking equal. If an OEM spout will pinwheel same in OEM guise in one's atmosphere,be thankful and box 'er up and head 'er out,to be setback and punched out. It's pre-established stability will only be bolstered by the RPM increase inherent of increased velocity. Once it's back in grubby mitts,it's hardly daunting to move the magbox shim to arrange 75gr smooches and land chasing,as well as shortening the ejector.

You've been led to water.

Hint.

GOOD talk......................












(Addendum: to grant a HACK "credit")

Steelhead,

I've mentioned more than once,that I'd not let JKobble rebarrel a milkshake,with a fresh straw.

Them constants...remain constant...................(grin)

Jkob do that one........

Watch it Stick, you might get a bolt threw your eyeball!

Quick load says YES!!!

Okay thank you I would appreciate that.

BHW: Whose blanks are they using?

NOBODY,
Is that skunk cabbage?

You are the one that taught me to get a bull barrel, because I don't want a cow barrel.

RDW,

This stuff is all "knew" to me and a "threw" would be a bitch.(grin)

I'll feign my "surprise" that there's no "particulars" and only silence...in regards to the Dented Barn Chronicles.

What were the fhuqking "odds"?!?

Laughing!..................















'bean

Dozens of spouts is the warmest and fuzziest of feedback. Doubly so,when talking a multitude of twist rates,lengths and contours.

It were a Rocktucky,C-Note and Electric Chair show today...though there was some .473's assuredly in tow.

The BABLR Buck Fhuqker is just patiently waiting to dazzle,with Splendid Beastie magnitude. Got stupid good dope on that SLEEPER.

It'll happen................















Dupont,

Noone has EVER regretted shooting the good schit.

Nothing hangs with the 75A-Max and them that cain't cypher a "difference"....sure as fhuqk do not shoot much.

Hint.................















'6,

BHW uses their own blank,as they actually drill/rifle in house. I got 'em on the horn prior to ordering,to answer that query amongst others and was reaffirmed of that process.

That spout is now loooonnnnnggggggggg gone,as The Dude was on fhuqking fire with it today,to 800yds+ and informed me that it's his now. I'm happy to order an extry for me and extrapolate another against my first.

It took nearly 100-ish rounds for this one to settle and my only inkling in regards to same,is that there mighta/musta been a gas port booger of some sort,as all surfaces were incredibly well finished. I mean fhuqking IMPRESSIVELY and that were rather a shock(absolute BEST I've seen). The new bore was punched with jag/patch and bore Smoothicity were felt and I assuredly couldn't eyefhuqk a malady anywhere. Pards have several(in both '10 and '15),but they'd slapped 'em upon upper receivers,before I could gawk a stand alone spout in my mitts. I've shot 'em and was veddy veddy impressed with the performance,thus the leap in that direction.

Once it settled down,I done sumptin' I'd never done did before and scribed the dope directly to it's handle. Hadta pull the initial Roger's foliage green off,as I made a mistake affixing a RSS foam pad to it and it changed cheekweld too much. So FDE it is and scribed with KILLER dope in accordance.



Will haveta whirl a 243LBC too,especially beings Graf's is blowing out Lapooey Grendel hulls and Redding FL bushing dies. Am thinking I've still got some Forster Comp 6PPC dies kicking around.

Here's hopin' that a chrome plated bolt with staked gas key,don't go "threw" my eye,as it squirts 105 A-Max out da' bidness end,ala Bill's mags.

Would go no more than 20" there and most likely 18",wearing Rifle length gas.................















Clark,

Have never "herd" of skunk cabbage and cain't know it...even if I "scene" it.

When in doubt,Prairie Clairborne schit and add length,diameter and Imagination to "you're" spout.

Laughing!...............
















(Addendum: for .243" '15's)

'6,

I've yet to see an ASC or Stoner '15 mag(same/same)...only go 2.28". All of mine,easily go 2.310" in OEM guise and a window grants a minimum of 2.345". Hint.

I shoot 105 Berger Hybrid VLD's in my 6BR at 2700fps,less any stability "issues" in a 1-8" and am not fretting that. Hint.

Do tell about your '8208/105/2800fps '15's barrel length. Hint................

6 RAT is the AI version of the 6AR or LBC. 8208 will get you 2800 fps with a 105 amax or HPBT at Stoner (grendel) mag length. 2.28". I used Alexander (lapua) 6.5 brass..........in the old days

7.5 to 7.7 twist is where you want to be.

FF loads by false shoulder gave up nuttin much either..