A few years ago, I had a couple of custom rifles built on actions I owned, both fitted with PacNor Super Match grade barrels. One was a .280, the other a .270 WSM.

The .280 was and is a super shooter, from day one, with various bullets and powders, a consistent .5-.75 MOA shooter and an all around favorite.

The .270 WSM, not so much- if kept very clean, would hover around an inch, but quickly open up to 1.5-2 in. When cleaning this barrel, there are two or three 'sticky' spots, and this was supposed to be a super hand-lapped job. Those spots have gotten worse, and now accuracy is further suffering.

By contrast, I own two Weatherby MkV's, one a .257, the other a .300, both factory barrels, both with great accuracy- in fact, the .257 is probably the most accurate big game caliber I own. A Browning X-Bolt and several Rugers, same story- very accurate with factory barrels.

My options with the .270 are to either rebarrel with another custom make, or simply put on another factory barrel (Weatherby Vanguard). Either way, I'm taking my chances, but the difference in cost is around $300 more for another PacNor. The third option is to simply put it in the gun safe and forget it, but I have too much money invested in the McMillan Edge stock, Timney trigger, etc. for me to just give up on it. My inclination at present is to get a factory barrel screwed on it, and take my chances.
My gunsmith says that he has seen hit-or-miss results with PacNor barrels, and is not a big fan of using them. (He didn't put together either of these rifles).

Any thoughts or experiences to share?

Could you feel these when the barrel was new? If so, that seems like something you could have taken up with PacNor at that time.

Nope, barrel was pretty slick when new.
In any event, that ship has sailed- too many years since I bought the barrel.

Bartlein barrel replacement, once and done.

If your talking Krieger, Bartlien,Hart, Rock creek than I think there worth it.........

More times than we like to think, it's not the barrel;it's assembly.I've seen a Krieger behave like the OP's 270 WSM until the rifle was torn apart and put together right.

My friends last pac Nor took two tries but they got it right the second time.

Yes, custom barrels are worth the money...assembled correctly.

This^^

Any barrel maker can have a turd leave the bowl.. I've installed any number of different barrel-makers and have only had two that were turds.

One - Krieger.. Customer just wanted it gone and replaced with a Lilja. Problem solved.

Two - Pac-Nor. They wanted the barrel back for inspection, found something wrong and replaced the barrel and paid me to install it.. Problem solved..

That's pretty darn good customer service.

If you have a hankering for something of larger diameter than .277" on the WSM case, you could have it rebored. 'Twould be a bit cheaper than a rebarrel.

I'm tired of pouring money into this project. I have decided to pull the barrel, send it back to Pac Nor, which will probably only get me more money out of pocket for shipping, sell the Vanguard action, McMillan Edge stock, Timney trigger, and Talley mounts.

Life's too short to continually deal with these kind of problems, even for a rifle nut.

What makes a custom barrel worth it is getting your gun throated how you want it

Laker's right, right thar.

You can also lighten a rifle or make the balance change depending on the contour and length. Match twist rate for intended bullet use.

Smart. If it sucks, dump it.

If this is PacNor fault I would be very surprised if they didn't make it right

Thanks, Redneck.

That's why I keep saying, pick your barrel in consultation with your smith. He knows which companies are behind in production, which may be operating on past reputation, which will stand behind their products with the least hassle. It's his reputation on the line as much if not more than the barrel maker. And, how that barrel is installed is critical to optimal performance.

Pick the smith, then the barrel...

IMO,

DF

Then there is the guy who buys the take off, re-chambered, trued up proper, shoot as well as the custom tube that replaced it. I've seen some take of factory tubes cut and fitted right that can flat out shoot on par with custom.

Never seen a factory tube shoot like a top end custom tube done right.

I have seen factory shoot as well as a custom done sloppily though.

Problem with factory often is how many will you go through before you get the custom quality one.

+1
I have bought zillions of take off barrels and put them on an actions and shot a group to see what would happen.
Maybe 1/3 or 1/2 the time a Rem700 take off will shoot sub moa with new chamber and threads.
Short fat 6mmPPC benchrest take off barrels with low rounds count can always shoot better than me, but the longest bullet they can shoot is a 65 gr Vmax, with their 14" twist.
After those, most take off barrels are a long shot.
But a brand new select match custom barrel that is factory hand lapped and stress relieved will be sub moa every time.
So, is it worth $300 for barrel insurance?
Depends on how valuable your time is.

Do what!? So I take my rifle apart and reassemble it and it will turn into a shooter.

Sure some funny stories on this thread, but this is a gun forum.

Probably not. The NRA/US Army "gauging bullet tilt" article by A. A. ABBATIELLO 50 years ago has a math derivation for bent ammo that stands up to testing.

But that is with random rotational orientation insertion of bent ammo. The eccentric chamber is the same rotational orientation shot to shot. So each bullet [with center of mass offset from the center of bore] flings off course in the same direction upon leaving the muzzle. This results in a displaced, but still small group. I have a 7mmRM that finished chambering with 0.005" eccentricity and yet is accurate.

But in a gun culture steeped in superfluous accuracy rituals, chambering a hunting rifle with benchrest techniques is a small non recurring sacrifice.
I do it the way Mike Bryant had on his web site.

Just got an email from Mike about 10 minutes ago. We were discussing lathe accidents that we have had. Also discussing a software and minor rewiring inorder that you can set your DRO to instantly stop(less than .002) your spindle. A buddy is doing it and he sent me a youtube and it works great. How would you like to turn or thread to a shoulder and the spindle stop at your programed zero?

A friend of mine had a 280 built of good components. Pre 64 M70 action, Krieger barrel,Brown stock etc. It would not shoot,and by that I mean it grouped poorly with anything and he tried both factory and hand loads. He had a lot of patience and owned it several years.

He finally took it to a smith we both use,who tore it down,set the barrel back and rechambered, lapped lugs,new crown,re-did the bedding,etc etc. The rifle immediately started shooting after that.

In the case of the PacNor the rifle simply wouldn't shoot well. He returned it ;they fixed it. It shot well after that. I have no idea what they did to it.

IIRC you and Clark are both smiths; I'm sure you both know there are right and wrong ways to assemble a rifle. I don't know why you are both mystified by what I said.Rifles that don't shoot frequently need to be "fixed".

Point being that a barrel is only as good as the smith who assembles it.That's why guys like Al Warner in NH (who almost no none knows unless you are a match shooter)is in constant demand among match shooters...and Alex Sitman the same when it comes to bedding.

DRO to instantly stop(less than .002)
I have not written any software for 38 years, but I can think of another way to do that. My lathe's foot brake flips a switch and spreads two brake shoes in a drum on the spindle. I could use a position switch on the ways to turn on a field effect transistor that would drive a linear solenoid that would pull on the foot brake pull bar.



First let me say that at the ranges I frequent in the Seattle area with 20 benches firing, my 2 moa groups from a 100 year old lever action will probably be the better than anyone else's group while I am there.

Bart Bobbitt shot a 3.25" 20 shot group at 800 yards in 1997 with his 308 with a Krieger barrel and trued bolt face.

If you are shooting 2 moa, the changing the chamber, lugs, or crown will not make a difference that is detectable or resolvable.

If you are shooting like Bart, then everything is important.

Bedding may not improve things much, but I have seen bad bedding throw things off by 4.5 moa.
In 2002 we built 4 rifles on Mausers actions in 257 Roberts Ackley with Lothar Walther light varmint barrels. Mine averaged 0.5" 5 shots at 100 meters with 75 gr Vmax and 1.0" with HNDY 100 gr. That was good [good for me, not good for Bart], but one of the other rifles shot 5.0". The glass bed job on the bad rifle caused the action or the barrel to bend as the screws were tightened.

I have three V2s, a 223 and two Creeds, and all three are easily as accurate as a most of my custom sporters. I was happy with the McMillan McM Hunter stock that I put one of the Creeds into, accurate and user friendly.

I compare after-market barrels to after-market shocks, in that the factory units are made as inexpensively as possible as a means by which to help the profit margin. However, as my 'smithing mentor says, barrels are like people, each has its own "personality".

My late father designed guns and vehicles. He bought the barrels and did not talk about them,,, and so through my own ignorance I can pretend I know all I need to about barrels. But shocks... he had a bunch of suspension patents that I could understand as long as he was talking. I think I could hand wave about parabolic taper for recoil shocks, but I have some idea of the magnitude of my ignorance about shock absorbers.

But barrels, I am fat dumb and happy with ordering Shilen select match stainless barrels every year.
I get small groups and the teacher should put a star on my range report.

I was thinking more along the line that most people are content with the factory installed shocks, or Monroe replacements, while other prefer the "tinker" with their ride and prefer the improved handling and feel for the road that Bilsteins or Konis are known for.

Most shooters are content with the factory installed barrels, many of which are capable of all the accuracy that many, as issued, factroy production rifle can hope to achieve. Other shooters prefer to "tinker" with their rifles and seek to reduce the number of potential variables in the shooting game through an after-market barrel that they have more confidence in. Perhaps they are "over thinking" the barrel as a variable, perhaps not.

I have Douglas, Hart, Kreiger, Pac-Nor, Shaw, Shilen, and Wilson after-market barrels. Kind of a bell-curve distribution of outcomes with most falling to the high side of average. Probably the best is a Kreiger light-palma stainless barrel that started at 30" and has been cut back an inch at a time until it is now 25" long. I have total confidence in this barrel's proven record of making small groups.

260 guy.
I am on the same page.
We can't know everything, but my experience shows expensive barrels make good outcomes more likely.

Clarkm,
You know as well as I do that your method is way too slow!




I have not written any software for 38 years, but I can think of another way to do that. My lathe's foot brake flips a switch and spreads two brake shoes in a drum on the spindle. I could use a position switch on the ways to turn on a field effect transistor that would drive a linear solenoid that would pull on the foot brake pull bar.

You think the DRO turning off the motor is faster than a switch turning off the motor and hitting the brakes?

In working on the Eclipse jet engine [Pratt Whitney] starter generator controller, we had to calculate the angular momentum of a flywheel that would be the same load as starting the engine. We built a test fixture and put a motorcycle disc brake on the flywheel. We put strain gauges with radio transmitters to measure torque. We needed the brake... It took too long waiting for the wheel to stop after we quit applying power to the motor.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angular_momentum

A good barrel is a good barrel. Only reason I play the custom tube roulette is if I want a specific twist or contour. Ive had very few custom barrels that impressed me much. I currently have a lilja that continues to impress though.

Dang. Custom tube roulette? Who's doing your smith work?

Definitely the wrong ones.................

No, I have had some stellar factory rifles. Half the people on this site wouldn't know an accurate rifle if it bit them in the ass...because they dont shoot. People like to post pics of their guns with a brand X barrel, then quickly put them back in the safe.

I have a Ruger #1V 223 and Browning 1885 7mmRM that are better than me. Stock from the factory, just put a big scope on them.
I have hundreds of rifles.
Those rifles are part of the few exceptions.
But with a new Shilen select match barrel I am almost certain to build a rifle that is better than me.
Expensive barrels reduce the risk of inaccuracy.

The late gunsmith Randy Ketchum said he can build an accurate rifle for you with a Lilja barrel or you can buy a factory rifle, test it, and sell if it is not accurate. He said you only have to buy an average of 3 or 4 Rem 700 or Sako rifles before you will find a good one. He admitted either method costs about the same and winds up in the same place.

So what's an accurate rifle and how many rounds down range does a guy have to shoot to be considered a shooter?

In some cases, the 'smith' has no control over the barrel.. He can install it to within .0001 and if the bore isn't concentric his work is for naught..

And I have a timely example.. I've installed barrels from this (will be unnamed) maker for over a dozen years. They've all been stellar - until this morning..

Receiver's done, chamber/threads done, reversed the barrel into the headstock to do the muzzle after rough cutting to 21" FL.. Dialed in the OD to face the muzzle, used a boring bar to give a flat cut on the bore, shallow - to remove any possible burr.

Started the lathe just to do a 'quick peek' and saw that bore wobble like a clown-car wheel.. WTH??? Rechecked the OD to make sure nothin' moved - still at .001 or less.. Whoa....

Mounted a centering bar and took a reading with a gauge to check runout on the bore.. .015!!! Ye Gods..

I've had aftermarket barrels from mucho makers and only a very few have been right on zero from the get go.. Most are .001-005 out of center and that's not gonna ruin anyone's day.. But .015?

I've got a call into the owner of the barrel company and get his input.. At this point, depending on the scope chosen, I'm not all that sure it can be dialed in at anything past 100+/- yards to zero it..

If you index it properly a guy could take advantage of all the "up" in his scope. That is if he had enough "down".

Isn't that how it really should be done. How many smiths do it that way? I think very few. Have talked to some smiths that have no idea. Watching Gordie Gritters benchrest chambering video gives a good case for doing it that way

I wonder how it will unwind as it warms up.

Half the people on this site will never know apparently....

I wonder if I qualify as a guy who shoots? In the last year I've burned two 8 pound jugs of IMR4895 in just my 308's. Never mind the Varget, IMR4320, IMR4166, IMR4064, IMR3031, CFE223, W748, H4895, IMR8208XBR, RL15, ...

I think there might be a chance. How many accurate barrels have jumped up and bit you?

One or two.

The factory barrel on my Rem 700 5R Milspec is pretty darn good.

One of my friends had a Mil Spec 223 and that was one of the most accurate factory rifles I've ever seen.

Sure.. But keep in mind this isn't known until the other end is done.. I.e., the barrel would have to be marked, then turned around, set up again in the lathe and about half the job might have to be done over..

The .015 is edge/edge, meaning (obviously) that the bore is actually only .0075 off dead center.. That should equate to only about a couple clicks on the scope knobs. The owner made a note - said he'd keep this in the file and if the barrel won't shoot he'd replace it and pay for the install..

I'll know shortly.

Had a buddy chuck up a factory Rem barrel to cut threads for a muzzle brake for a guy. Said it looked like a jump rope and the muzzle did the clown car thing you're talking about. Told the guy about it and he said it was the best shooting factory rifle he'd ever owned!

I've got a factory Ruger, a factory dpms, and a factory tikka that havent been bested by my customs. I've had a krieger and a lilja equiped gun that were shooters, but not better. I've only owned three factory guns that were real dogs, but I've owned three with custom tubes that were dogs too and three times the cost.

My next gun will be another tikka or a ruger precision.

If you will be going through a barrel change delay and expense either way, I would go with a custom barrel. I have had good luck with Benchmark and Bartlein.

Some factory barrels may shoot nearly as well as custom, but they usually foul much worse.

I just had a Benchmark barrel put on my 223 (Ruger Hawkeye). Cost me a ton to have the barrel done and have the action squared up and the stock bedded. Got it back finally and started working up loads. It shot real well, but seemed to go vertical when the barrel got hot. Well, that's not good, but probably not a deal killer. I found the good loads for 40, 55, and 65 gr bullets and loaded up a bunch of ammo. Over a week or two I shot the rifle with a cold fouled barrel to check the zero and the accuracy. I got great accuracy at times (well less than 1/4 inch) but at other times the accuracy was oddly off. I just could not figure out what was wrong. Turned out it was the scope, a Leupold VX2 6-18. Apparently the scope would start to wander on POI the more I shot it, and finally just got random all the time. I had another scope and the rifle is shooting great little groups and does NOT wander when the barrel is hot.

So my suggestion is to go with a custom barrel, but get the action tuned up while it's at the shop. And when accuracy gets odd when it shouldn't, swap out the scope. If I hadn't had a similar soope problem some years ago, I doubt I'd have diagnosed this problem properly. Probably I'd have given the rifle to a nephew and got a new Tikks 223.

And for the record, the original Ruger barrel shot quite well, though not good enough to satisfy me. Turns out that the action/boltface needed to be trued up.

I bought this 1972 Savage 110 223 in 2013 for $240
I put a Lothar Walther barrel on it, different recoil lug, different stock, different paint, different cheek rest, different bipod, different bolt handle, got rid of barrel nut system, no turn neck 223 reamer, etc.





First 5 shot group from rifle at 100 yards.

It shoots a lot better now.
Not because the barrel is stress relieved and lapped in Germany.

It is because the barrel is so heavy and clean, and the scope is more powerful.

The stress relieved and lapped expensive barrel means it will stay clean longer, and warp less when hot.

I wanted to bump this and find out how this gun shot. Any word yet Redneck?