So there is a custom builder here in town. By all accounts he does outstanding work. He's a long range shooter, is even on a long range shooting TV show. I've done some shooting with him and he's gotten me interested in putting together a rifle for myself.

Now he's given me some ideas and they sound good to my untrained ears. I thought I'd bounce them off you fellas and get some thoughts.

Thinking a 700 long action, 300WSM, dbm, 20" barrel, Timney trigger, maybe a McMillan lightweight stock. He is a fan of those short action rounds in a long action so you can run the bullets way out. Would AIing it be a good addition? Not sure on barrel contour - don't want a heavy pig. Twisted for long, heavy, bullets - best twist?

The custom road can certainly be a fun and rewarding one! Having a local smith you know personally is quite cool too.

What are you shooting now? What do you want this new rifle to do for you?

Is this the blueprint he suggested?
If so I would question his credentials?

How would you "AI" a 300 WSM?

If this is his idea then run away!

The AI was my thought. I'm assuming by your reaction that it not possible. How about some thoughts on what I was thinking. What's wrong with it?

As for what I'm shooting, I have a lot of different rifles. This would be my first custom, however. I want a somewhat light rifle, capable of shooting a big heavy bullet accurately at long range. Is there any merit to a WSM round in a long action. As he descibed it, it allows you to seat long bullets way out there and maintain case capacity.

No A.I.
No 300wsm
No 20" barrel


Yes Mcmillan stock
Yes Timney trigger


Seriously though what are you going to use the rifle for?
Targets?
Hunting?
Varmints?
Gongs?

The only thing that rifles are good for! Hunting! The rest is just practice for when hunting season is open.

He shoots thousands of round a year, he's not a total gun counter moron. He made a good case for the 300WSM in a long action. I'm all ears if there's a good reason not to. I already have a 300 RUM, but it's a heavy pig. I'm looking for a well balanced 30 caliber hunting rig that's very capable for long, intermediate, and short range and still enjoyable to carry. He's of the opinion that you can go to 20" and not lose a terrific amount of speed. He actually recommended 22", however.

The only reason to run a WSM is for the short action. If you're gonna use a long action then just go with a 300 win mag. With a Remington action you've still got plenty of length to seat bullets long. Might do 22", but never 20" in that round.

Light rifle shooting a heavy bullet at long range is a recipe for failure.

Long range shooting requires much practice.

Light rifle and heavy bullets in magnum chambering will be counterproductive.

If you want a heavy high B.C. bullet think 7mm , better yet 6.5mm.

Light rifle, 6.5 Creed, maybe 6.5 saum. Long action 6.5-06

Medium rifle 7mm saum, long action 7mm Rem mag. 280 Rem. 280 A.I. 284 win.

Heavy rifle 300 Win. long action.

When I say long action I am referring to Rem 700 with the long mag box.

Short actions the Rem 700 is handicapped with a 2.8" mag box.
The Savage center feed has a 3.00 mag box.
Winchester M70 short action also has a 3.00 mag box.

The length of the mag box is critical. You need the extra length in order to seat the VLD type bullets close to the lands for better accuracy.

That was my impression as well re: WSM and short actions. He made it sound like the logical way to chamber a WSM if you want to use heavy long bullets and keep case capacity. I'm just looking for tangible reasons to change my mind. I like the RUMs, but if I could put together something without all that blast and recoil, I would enjoy shooting it more. Like I said, I'm as green as they get in this realm so any help is appreciated. If I question what you say, it's only so that I can understand why you're saying it.

I have several lighter rifles in 30-06 and 308 based rounds. What I want is a hammer in a pleasant to carry, long range capable rifle. I don't have a problem with recoil and while I seldom shoot truly long range (1000 yds +) I do shoot 500 to 750 a couple of times a week. Rifles over 10# don't interest me at all. I understand that a multi purpose rifle can be somewhat of a jack of all trades, master of none, I'm hoping that there is a blueprint out there that might fit the bill.

As Big Stick would say, headstamps aren't where it's at- bullets are.
Start researching bullets with great BC's and you're halfway there.

There are a few good VLD bullets for the big .30's but you need to start them fairly fast, which takes a bit of a push. Recoil with these kind of rounds in a light rifle can be brutal and practice can be painful fairly shortly. IMHO, designing a rifle to meet your criteria is going to take a bit of studying of not only cartridges, but the overall rifle and the uses you will have for it. Hunting will require one type of build, whereas shooting targets or gongs way out there will be another type of build.

If it were me , I would consider going something like a 6.5-06, 26 Nosler, or something along those lines. Lots of power to get it going downrange, and the 6.5 bullets at the moment seem to have better than average BC's and relatively bearable recoil for the advantage.
Be sure to match the twist to the bullet you plan to shoot and a stock that fits you well. Just saying a McMillan doesn't guarantee a good fit and McMillan makes a lot of different stocks.

The big 338's- the 338 Edge, 338 Lapua, 376 Cheytac, are all proven long range performers but more than a bit of overkill for hunting conditions and very expensive to shoot regularly.

Read a bunch of what is posted on the Long Range forum and you may start to see a pattern develop that covers what you are after. And ask lots of questions- we love to help you spend your money...

Bob

I would give a hard look at the 7mm Rem. mag.

Do a 1/8 twist barrel. Run 175 to 195gr bullets.

7mm has great B.C.'s, tolerable recoil, burns less than 70grains of powder.

Components are easy to find.

The Berger 195 has a B.C. of .755. Push that to 2800fps and at 1000yds it's still traveling at 1700fps.

The 300 Win. mag will beat that with a Hornady 225gr ELD match bullet, but at the expense of more recoil, muzzle blast and component cost.

A better mousetrap in my opinion is a 6.5 creedmore with a Hornady 147 ELD. But it appears you want more horsepower than that?

Again beware of cartridges that are too long for the magazine with the longer VLD type of bullets.

The high B.C. bullets are important in minimizing wind drift and maximizing energy.

7mm Wizzum

Do it the easy way and go with a Kimber Montana either as one already in 7 or have him rebarrel a 270/300/325 donor.

Ranger, based on what I'm hearing from you, a 7 Rem Mag shooting 175 - 190 gr Bergers in a rifle that will weigh 9 - 10 lbs with scope sounds about right. You can make that weight with a Bartlien 3 or 3b barrel. Manageable weight but heavy enough to settle down. Recoil is as much as I'd care for in a 9 - 10 lb rig.

The only way I would do a short mag is on a Defiance machine XM action, no way would I do one on a long action, The XM with a mag box of 3.20 works great ,the 7 WSM is an awesome round but brass is hard to find, a better choice on the XM action would be a 7mm RSAUM as norma and Nosler offer brass, your second and probably a little cheaper has already been mentioned by ifubar and ctsmith the only change I would make would be in the contour a Bartlien 3 would be max for me as the 3b is to heavy for my taste, I'm having a 7mm mag done right now with a Bartlien 2b and is still plenty heavy!

If you plan on a large case, use a long enough barrel to burn the powder!

For a first time custom the best advice I can give you is build it lighter and in a milder chambering than you think you want.

AMEN!

That is just a very odd blueprint.

Blueprint #1
Unlimited budget

1. Defiance long action
2. Brux, Bartlien, Krieger fluted 24"-25" long
3.Mcmillan gamescout edge or Manners EH1/1A
4.P.T.&G. aluminum Oberndorf bottom metal
5.Nightforce NSX 5.5-22 or Schmidt & Bender
6. Nightforce ultra light rings
7. Jewel trigger



Blueprint #2
Midrange budget

1. Rem M700. long action
2. Brux, Bartlien, Krieger, Lilja.... no flutes 24"-25"
3. Mcmillan Gamescout
4.Factory BDL bottom metal
5. Super Sniper 4-20, Burris XTR11 4-20,Bushnell ELRH 4.5-18
6. Burris XTR tactical rings
7. Timney or Shilen trigger


Blueprint #3
Budget model

1. Savage 110 action
2.Krieger criterion pre-fit. McGowen pre-fit, X barrel pre-fit
3.Boyds pro varmint laminated stock
4.Super Sniper 10x, Super Sniper 3-15
5.Super Sniper rings or Weaver tactical rings
6. Re-spring and hone factory trigger, or use accutrigger

Caliber
Number one choice would be
#1 7MM Rem mag
#2 28 Nosler
#3 3oo Win Mag

7mm barrels would be 1/8 twist
308 barrel would be 1/9 twist

Contour would be chosen after other components to come in at 9-10lbs.

This would give you a fairly lightweight practical long range rifle, with much horsepower.

It'd be tough to top a stainless steel SA 700, chambered in 7 SAUM/WSM with an AICS footprint bottom metal, barreled in a Remington magnumish contour twisted 1:8, a McMillan standard-fill stock with your preferred ergos, scoped to your desires. Flinging a high B.C. bullet it'll do most anything you'd ask of a rifle in the 8-8.5 pound range.

I've put together pretty much the rifle you described. It is patterned after a GAP non-typical.



WSM 700 action
Factory 7 SAUM barrel from the fire
High tech stock
Atlasworx DBM
PTG bolt handle Acutig'd on X caliber fluted and nitrided

8# on the nose as pictured

With that action and 20" barrel, think I'd be looking at a 6.5x55 Swede with a 1:8 twist ER Shaw tube(#1 contour). Would be a handy, accurate, hunting rifle.

I've a rifle very similar to yours (McMillan Sako Hunter and a 6x42 in steel mounts) that's 8 pounds and change. Just got it together a year ago and it has been a hammer on everything at which it has been pointed, (2 caribou bulls, a bull elk and a bull moose) all with 162 A-Max. It's a long ways from my only rifle, but I've a hard time picking up anything else.

Tikka T3x CTR ( Or Super Varmint in 300WSM, 300WM, 7RM )
308 WIN ( or 300WSM, 300WM, 7RM )
McMillan A3 with adjustable comb, and picatinny rail for bipod
Bushnell 3-12x44 LRHS
Atlas Bipod
Suppressor if allowed in state

155 grain Scenars..


I dont belive in "custom projects", when you can buy quality components, that does the same job at a cheaper price!

People have 700 longs chambered in 257rob., .284win, etc and are completely happy with them.
So i don't see any obscure issue with WSM (if you want it), thats what custom is all about.
I don't understand the 20" tube for such an overbore cartridge.

Ive had my experience 20" 30cal barrels, the shortness offered no real world advantage to me.

However I would find real joy in a Ruger ultralight in .250sav with 20"..

As longbarrel and others have said, the short barrel ain't the ticket. I do agree with the long action.

First thing I would not do would be to use a 20" barrel.

So from what I've been able to glean here, nothing wrong with the long action idea, go a little longer on the barrel, probably a standard fill McMillan. What about detachable magazines? I'm not against the idea, I would assume that one would be able to use one that's long enough to accommodate this round in a long action? I have a couple of rifles that fit the bill perfectly for sub 30 caliber carry rifles. He's a big fan of these WSM rounds when you chamber them to allow seating the bullet way out there. Anyone have any experience with that?

+2

The more I shoot, the older I get, the less I enjoy recoil and filling large cases with lots of powder.

A medium weight 6.5 Creed or .260 would be just about right in my book for hunting and shooting.

If you want to save a build, I have a Rifles Inc in 7 STW that would fit the bill. Lex Webernick knows how to build a rifle.

Why the dumb tape? Snow too deep?

Custom rifles can bring alot of satisfaction and alot of pride, etc. They can also drain the wallet in frustration.....
Having done four customs for myself, I've come to the conclusion that one should be very clear on what you need and that you can't get it in a factory rifle. Or a modified factory rifle.
By simply changing the stock or the barrel on a factory rifle it is possible to find yourself with a much different rifle.
The other thing I've noticed is that you seem impressed with long range shooting and hunting. All of the truly effective long range hunters I've known or followed on this site have one thing in common. They shoot far more than most hunters do. Without this dedication to practice at the ranges they expect to shoot game, they simply can't get it done when the time comes to shoot their throphy. A laser range finder, a bipod and a fancy magnum rifle will not do it. E

That is a weird comment and just shows how F'ed up a question about something can get on here....

But from what I've seen on here, Ranger can more than hold his own in the hunting department. I'd bet his shooting isn't too shabby either.

Thanks Lonny. Never seems to fail around here.

Dirt... Mud...

Honestly the whole WSM case built on a long action screams schitt build to me, but whatever floats your boat.

Oh gotcha...

Why is that? According to the smith, he chambers it to allow seating a heavy, long, bullet very long. I'm not versed in the ins and outs of it. Is he wrong? Sounds like he can really stretch the performance out by doing so. I'm asking because I don't know. I'd enjoy hearing from anybody that has some knowledge of why or why not to do it.

Actually, not a terrible idea to use the long action if your build plans include extreme long range shooting on a regular basis. The best 30 cal BC bullets are very long for caliber and need more than the OEM magazine length to make the most of the case capacity for powder. Seating a long bullet deep into the case due to mag constraints will really throttle the performance by reducing powder capacity. I would think a longer barrel would also be the best idea to go along with burning large amounts of slow burning powder required to get the VLD bullets moving at respectable speeds. IMHO, a 24 inch barrel would be minimum for this aspect of the build, a 26 might be better.

Keep in mind that using a short mag cartridge in a long Mag action may create feeding problems which will need to be worked out, but not an insurmountable problem.

So, what is the time line on the build?

Bob

Thanks, Sheister. I'm planning to get him rolling on it this winter yet. He's done a number of these builds in the 7WSM so I would think he has most of the bugs worked out. This would be the first in the 300WSM so perhaps he'll still run into some.

Ranger1: What's the mission? Hard to plan the right built without knowing the application?

What critters and distances?

PS, long action and short barrel are usually a bad combination.

So this is a configuration he had never even built before? I hear a giant sucking sound on your wallet. I do not want the gunsmith working out the bugs on my dime.

This seems a hugely unbalanced design. Any gains achieved by long seating the bullets will be lost through the short barrel. The high BC bullets in .308" are all heavy--this gun is going to be loud and kick. Neither are conducive to lots of practice and good technique. I have my doubts about how well it will feed; WSM cases have a reputation for being difficult in that regard.


You could be so much happier with less risk and expense. A modestly heavy barreled .308 win. A 300 Win with a 24" barrel. A long throated .284 Win. shooting 168 gr bullets. So many of the suggestions that others have given you.

Gun design is a systems problem of minimizing/balancing tradeoffs.It is possible in gun design to simultaneously impose a series of constraints that create a null set. Years ago my father said he wanted a very light, extremely accurate, low recoil, chambered for a "deer adequate to 500 yard" cartridge rifle. I told him no gun met all of those goals at the same time. We ended up having Greg Tannel build him a 6.5-.284 on a long Rem 700 action and a standard fill McMillan that weighs probably a pound more than he dreamed of, but he has not carried anything else into the field in maybe a decade. He also has a Kimber 280 AI in the safe, but it is nowhere near as accurate. But it is almost 2# lighter, so it is just another way to slice the Gordian knot of "the perfect rifle."

A first custom should not be exotic. It seems your gunsmith wants to pay you to put a Hemi in a Miata.

K.I.S.S. .... get a new Remington SPS SS #27255 in your desired 300 WSM, bed it in a McMillan Classic or Classic Edge, and put a Shilen or Timney trigger in it and be happy. You could have him cut a couple inches off the barrel and crown. Could also Cerakote it for protection and looks. You would also have the option to shoot it as issued to see how it shoots and if you like it. Lot easier to turn a factory gun than a botched custom build if you don't like it. Just my thoughts after seeing you head down a dark path without a plan or light.

Ranger1, good luck with your build. The WSM based cartridges are very good and you will be happy with any you choose. Im pretty found of the 7WSM because it matches the 7RM. The 300WSM is closer to a 30-06 then a 300WM with 24 inch barrel. The 20 inch barrel idea will really handicap the round and make you with stand un-needed recoil. Just a quick comparison, my 300WM came from the factory with a 26 inch tube. It shot 180 grain bullets at 3160fps. I cut the barrel to 23 inches and it now shoots the same load at 3040fps. That is the average fps loss with all rounds fired. If you really want the WSM you could look at a model 70 short action with at least a 23 inch tube to maximize the rounds capabilities. This combo could easily be in the 7 pound range with the right stock. It would also offer manageable recoil. My 7WSM (7.5 pounds) with 140 grain bullet going 2950fps recoils in the .270Win range. My hunting loads are a lot hotter, but the recoil is still fairly light.

Remington 700 long action chambered 300 WSM
24 inch #3 contour barrel
Timney trigger
McMillan A-2
Detachable magazine system
Over sized bolt knob
CeraKote in tan
muzzle brake

This is where I'm at. So here's the deal - I want to be able to put heavy bullets on target at long range for elk sized game (or smaller stuff if I feel like it.) This will be my dedicated long range rifle. I have several semi custom (customized - whatever you want to call them) rifles that are bedded in McMillan stocks and they shoot well. They aren't 1000 yard rifles, however. This smith doesn't let it out of the shop until it shoots tiny little groups at 1000 yards and functions flawlessly. That much I'm not worried about. The question was in regard to the build itself, not if I know how to shoot, not if I've done enough hunting to have any idea what I want, not if long range hunting is a bad idea, not if I want to shoot a sub 30 cal round, not if I can handle recoil or muzzle blast. I very, very much appreciate the input of those that have helped out, even those critical of the ideas that I initially had. Any thoughts on where I have arrived at to this point?

I believe a regular 300 Win. mag with a close tolerance chamber would be a better bet. The long 700 has plenty of length for VLD bullets seated well out in that chambering. Combine that with custom throating and you'll be able to reach the lands if desired, and you'll totally sidestep the potential feeding issues of the WSM.

Also that's a lot of stock for a #3 barrel.

That sounds like a much better plan! Unless you're stuck on the WSM , I would do the Win Mag, especially if you're running magazines and you'll get the velocity either way.
If you're looking to 1,000 I'd use one of the heavier #3's like a Bartlein.

Good luck!

It seems like there are a lot of people advising against the WSM due to feeding issues. Hard to ignore. Why not just go 300 RUM if I'm going to go to a full length magnum? I already have the brass and dies. I guess I could sell my other one. It sure does eat a schitt load of powder up though. 15-20 grains more powder per round vs the 300 WSM.

If you've got the components, go for it! While I'm not a detachable mag expert (only used SA ones) I am not sure if you'll run into any feeding issues as I know most mags are made around the Win Mag case. I'd go #4 contour and you're on the right track with the brake!

Regarding the WSM; they can be a PIA. I have a 270 WSM, it feeds, but certainly not as smoothly as a case with more taper. Also, you have to regularly bump the shoulder, and die set up can be finicky. Oh yes, brass is pricey WHEN available.

I will not own another WSM.

Regarding barrel contour; when I had my first rebarrel done, I was advised to use a #4 contour (with the same 270 WSM). I can carry it all day, but it's heavier than it should be. I built a 260 Rem and used a #3 and it is much more pleasant to carry, but still has enough mass to shoot well.

My suggestion is (as previously pointed out) to carefully consider how you want to use the rifle. A #4 contour is perfect for some applications, just take your time to plan it out.