I have seen several threads discussing which route to take but have not seen much on why. I already have the 700 other wise It would be a no brainer. I'm sure I could sell it if I go the stiller route. So for those of you that own both what is the major advantages of the stiller? Besides the obvious resale value, side bolt release and such.

Look at a defiance machine

i look at it this way...
stiller is $950.00

a stainless remington will probably cost you
action $500.00
basic true $200.00
flute the bolt $75.00
doesnt have a one piece bolt assy.
side bolt release $100.00
melonite the bolt $75.00

so i cant see using a remington when you can have a custom action that works smoother and retains better re sale along with the pride of ownership with a top grade action

Gene270 I get that. If I didn't already have a 700 action I'd go custom with out a doubt. But I already have a early 90s 700 action that has seen very little use though it is not stainless.

This....

Add to that another $50-75 for milling the receiver for an extended magazine box. You would take a real beating on resale value of the 700 action as well. Defiance has been mentioned. The Rebel is a 700 clone and runs about $100 higher than the Stiller. I haven't used a Rebel but have a Deviant and I am highly impressed with it. Have owned a Stiller Predator and the Defiance seems smoother and tighter to me.

if you already have a remington action then you have a choice to make...sell yours and buy the stiller or use your remington....

you dont have to get everything done to your action that i mentioned when comparing the stiller to the remington ....basically a truing for roughly $200.00 dollars is all most people get... you dont evan have to get that done I have had remingtons that werent trued that shot well under moa

I know one gunsmith who says he's often had to work over some Stillers as much as any Remington he's ever blueprinted. Obviously he's not a fan....

Currently struggled with the same decision you are faced with now on my build. Eddie Fosnaugh has it now, and I elected to stick with the Rem700 action stainless. With action work and cost of said action alone I'm about at the same price as a stiller. Maybe a little under really, but not by a lot. I suspect once I get the rifle back it will exceed expectations as far as accuracy goes.

everyones opinion is valid on both sides of the argument, but at the end of the day, the only person who needs to be satisfied with your decision is you.

Good luck with your choice and hope you enjoy the new build once complete.

its gonna be a hunting rifle with a hinged floor plate so there is several options I will not be having done on my 700 action such as having it milled out for a dm, oversized bolt handle, or a side bolt release. For what I want which is fluted bolt, blue print with pined recoil lug, trued bolt face, lapped lugs and such I'm looking at about $350 or so. I was also told by the smith that he could get my action as straight or STRIGHTER than a stiller.

I have always used 700s. I have 4 of them now that shoot in the .1s and .2s. My father has a couple that he has shot groups in the .0s with. I don't need the big bolt knob or the side bolt release or fluting or any other gingerbread. I love it when one of my 700 builds outshoots a full custom. It all comes down to your smith, the barrel and your hand loads. The donor I used to build my varmint contour .308 with was $250. It shoots in the .1s.

Please elaborate. Is that an average of five, five shot groups shot in succession? Is it every now and then three shots will go in the same ragged hole?

I too would like to hear what BigPimpin has to say. Better yet, I will go on record to ask him to produce pictures of targets shot at 100 yards with even 3 shots. There are not a lot of 5 shot .0's shot on a regular bases. I'd even like to see a consistent 5 shot .1 or .2 Perhaps he can post pictures if it will happens.

No, I shoot three shot groups. Here's a target from when I was working up a hunting load. 168 Berger classic hunter, 42.6 RL-15, Lapua brass uniformed, deburred, chamfered, CCI BR2, OAL 2.795.. that's with my $250 700 action with a tuned factory trigger, HS stock and bartlein varmint contour 1:11.25 5-R.

Here's a couple more decent 700 groups. Probably would have been better if I had a $1200 action.

Smiths on these three builds were Joe Collier, Chris Self, Robert Gradous (despite his campfire reputation).

How repeatable is that?

With me shooting - the stars have to align.

Here's one more.

I recently bought a Stiller Predator for a new rifle build. When I saw this thread, I asked my gunsmith if he would check my action. He has trued a lot of 700's, and I am confident he has the experience to know how to check for problems.

I went to his shop last night and he measured and checked it several ways. His verdict was it was "dead nuts" and good to go.

Steve

Stiller SOLD the predator line last I heard.
They will be made but under a new name. Rumors that a custom rifle outfit bought it and some type of sharing of the facility.
Time will lend more details.

Ps all my predators are smooth, far and beyond anything actually needed for hunting 😎 But I really have been super happy with them.

Your smith forgot to mention that to get a Remington to the level of a stiller, defiance,bat ect. minus all the fancy bolt release/stops and flutes. The one big thing a lot of smiths over look is bushing the bolt. The bolt in a predator is made by PTG. You can add a PTG bolt to a Remington action. Last couple I bought ran in the 275$ to 325$ depending on specs!. Then a squaring and pinned recoil lug would get the Remington closer to a custom receiver.

I Believe with what you are looking at the Remington would work fine but have your smith bush the bolt.

i had heard PT&G had bought them but dont know if that is true

I'm down to zero 700's, probably have had a couple dozen pass through my hands. I still have a Stiller, but it will be going soon as well. I like the Stiller's, just not as much as my Bighorn or Deviant. Mine was quite true from the factory.

I'd go Stiller if forced to choose between the two for life, unless perhaps Mike Rescigno was building the 700...

I think they all have all the accuracy potential I'd ever use.

They were part of what I heard they partnered with another company.

Steve,

Yeah, the first Stiller action the gunsmith I mentioned bought was good to go. So he bought several more, and the majority weren't.

Mentioned above is the fact that your smith can true up the World, but if he doesn't bush the bolt face and the bolt diameter, you still don't have much.
What is the difference in resale of a "blueprinted-squared, receiver against a custom?
If it is a hunting rifle I believe all of it is a waste. Now I haven't taken my own advice.

John,
That's interesting. Maybe I got lucky. This gunsmith, a friend of mine who is now mostly retired from building rifles, said he used many of them and never had a problem. But, he did say he quit checking them after the first few were good. Maybe some bad ones got by him. But, he also said he always had very good luck with the rifles he built on Stiller actions. He told me Remington 700's could range from pretty straight to a complete mess.

The one I have his good, and I trust his judgement. If mine wasn't good, I wanted to do something about it now.

Steve

The OP states he already has the Rem 700 and that it is going to be a hunting gun, given that why not stay with the 700? Since it is going to be a hunting rifle I am not sure why he is having it "blueprinted",most Remingtons with a decent bed job and a decent trigger shoot well under MOA, and with a good barrel most of them shoot closer to 1/2 MOA. Of course I don't like fluted bolts or "truck gear shifter"type bolt handles either and often wonder why folks do that to perfectly nice looking rifles.

As far as the resale of a custom action hunting rifle I really have my doubts about that. Outside of a few rifle looneys who hang out on the various forums most folks wouldn't know a Stiller or any other custom action and would be more likely to purchase a Remington over a custom because they recognize the name.

My suggestion is to stay with the Remington, have it bedded to a stock you like, put a good trigger in it then go shoot it. If it doesn't shoot as well as you like then have it rebarreled, take the money you saved by not buying a custom action and having the eye candy done and go hunting with the money you saved.

drover

This may be gungack rumor only but what I heard was the problems arose when they first started farming out the bolts to PT&G. The specs between bolt and receiver were not what they should have been. This lasted less than a year before PT&G got it resolved.

This can happen easily if two different machining operations are done separately with out custom matching each bolt and receiver.

This is also a reason for heat treating prior to final machining. Most of the good ones are done this way.

The problems weren't caused by that. I was in his shop when he measured one of them.

However, that was maybe 3 years ago. Maybe they've resolved all the problems, but he ain't using any more of their actions, partly because they wouldn't stand behind them. YMMV.

Any opinions on Borden actions?

i have two borden actions ...they are excellent in my opinion and Jim Borden has been great to deal with

I was looking at the alpine action

borden actions has a new hook extractor that they are now using instead of the sako style also

I have two rifles on Stillers that are arguably the most accurate rifles I own. They are a 20 Vartarg and a 6.5x47 so they are pretty accurate calibers to begin with. I own several customs on 700's as well. I have a rifle being built right now on another Stiller. I have gone with the last two Stillers because I could get them when I decided to build the rifle. I wanted to try a Borden but wasn't willing to wait for one. For a hunting rifle I would buy another Stiller in a heartbeat and wouldn't worry about it. If I had a 700 in hand I wouldn't hesitate to use it either. I would be more concerned with who was building the rifle.

Get a good smith and ask them what they recommend based on what you want to end up with. He won't recommend parts that won't get you there.

Thanks for that info jdunham. I have talked to my smith and he said it was up to me, but I would not sacrifice accuracy using the 700. Though the 700 wouldn't be as tight when cycling the bolt as a custom action.

Bighorn is the current hot action. Worth checking out.

That has been my experience between the two. Really just a personal preference. Sounds like you have your bases covered. Make sure you post your rifle and specs in the blueprint thread when you get it done. I still like going through that thread and looking at the different blueprints.

Will do

Defiance action is worth the extra coin IMO.

I hope not...that's a good way to ruin them.

This is what I would do and am in the process of doing.

Drover, I agree with much of what you are saying except resale value. I believe 99% of buyers are smart enough to know the difference and would pay more.

........trust and BELIEVE when I saw I'm gonna have Robert build me a rifle on a 700 action...........would've been done it but trying to find a TiTanium 700 for him to do it on.....that will be AFTER the 7mm STW!!!!!!

John, whats your go to action for a hunting rifle?

When I asked GA Precision about trueing a stiller that I sent to have built. They said all they needed to do to stillers was lap the bolts. That's my limited experience and they turned down $350 in work.

Yes, just LOOK at it.

wildcat 33,

That's a good question, because I didn't even know until adding 'em up. I have nine custom rifles that were specifically built for me, and three are 700's and three FN Mausers. There are also two NULA's and a Montana 1999.

Also have several other custom rifles that were picked up used, mostly because they were older "classic" rifles.

I have a Stiller built by Jon Beanland, it shoots better then I am capable of. I know this for a fact as I have seen it done by someone else. It has run flawlessly for me so far.

I have two Defiance hunters waiting to be build. Just from my casual viewing they are a tighter smoother action then my Stiller. Does it make a hill of beans difference on a hunting rifle????? I know both if built right can shoot better then I am capable of.

What does it matter if the bolt is as tight when cycling the action? Wouldn't if only matter how the bolt sits when locked up?

I've only used Borden and Stiller actions. I like the Stiller better in every criteria. Honestly I like Sako actions more than any of them. It's just me.

New owner is dale trout.

Correct, from what I hear it is Dale Trout, a custom rifle builder http://www.thoroughbredrifles.com/ that has bought Stiller Precision. The rest of the crew will stay on too Russ, Jerry, Curtis, etc. from what I understand.

I have a stiller that was just barreled by LRI. They did a quality check on the action before it was assembled, mine was dead on and good to go.

Threads like this always crack me up. My comments are not about Stiller vs trued 700's, offer some advise to the novice that reads these types of threads.

I have trued 700's and 40X, and of course non trued of the same. As a former benchrest shooter, have had a dozen Hall M's, half again as many Stolle Panda's. All my actions are on benchrest stocks/barrels, and jewel triggers on everything.

Over the years, I have come full circle. I used to be an elitist with nothing but customs. Since I do my own work, it has been an interesting experiment that has involved several tens of thousands of dollars over the years involving all kinds of actions in Benchrest set ups.

The history of truing 700's started in the late 80's and we all jumped on the band wagon wanting to not leave any accuracy on the table as truing supposedly stabilizes harmonics. About 20 years later, I went back to not truing my actions, revisiting what a stock 700 would do with a 6ppc and 6 BR. I do use wind flags and I do have high quality benchrests and bags to shoot off of.

So, let me offer the results of only this last years trials on non trued Remingtons, 3" wide Benchrest stocks, 2 oz jewel triggers, and nightforce 12x-42x scopes.

6 XC-31" unturned blank, fully free floated to the lug
6.5x47 Lapua-29" unturned blank, fully free floated to lug
(2) 6 Dashers-8T- .105 and .130 freebore-29" Max Heavy
Varmint contours, totally free floated
6 BRX-28,26,24" unturned blanks, fully free floated. I wanted to do an experiment to see the accuracy difference in a chamber that was indicated in with .003 run out, then .0015 run out, then .0001 run out.

IN all cases, these barrels shot groups from the .070 area to .285 area, worst case when the accuracy node was found. These groups sizes were repeated over many hundreds of rounds. The groups are consistent, but the barrel that was chambered in 6 BRX with the .003 run out and .0015 run out exhibited load development that had a much narrower tune window, and seemed to be more finicky on changing climate. The chamber with .0001 had a very wide tune window and was more stable from day to day.

I feel as if a great lie has been perpetrated on the public in general when it comes to truing actions. I do not do work for other people when it comes to gunsmithing, and I can true my own actions. Truing actions is something that gunsmiths have had to learn to do to keep up with the public's general common accepted belief that a NON trued action will not shoot well.

As I stated earlier, I used to true all my custom benchrest actions and firing control mechanisms.

Part of what we do is a point of pride in our equipment, part is due to not wanting to leave any accuracy laying on the table. Seldom do you ever hear what really needs to be done for the average guy to shoot really exceptional groups for recreational target shooting and hunting. Many people can not afford the elite of custom upgrades, and they need to know where money needs to be spent and not spent.

So, where do you spend the money to get your best bang for the buck? That would be on a gunsmith that spends his time indicating the barrel in to the .0001-.0003. Even less expensive barrels shoot like a house a fire on non trued 700's, when indicated in properly with a Interapid indicator that has a 2.7" indicator needle. Barrels should of course should be fitted with the proper fitting bushing out of a large set of bushings for that caliber.

I don't do work for the public, I just think that folks should know some basic truths.

Thank you for that information. Very informative.

Remingtons have 0 primary extraction and their timing is off. Two reason to go custom other than resale value.

Yes sir, but that can be remedied easily and for not much money.

Good read Keith.

Did you by chance indicate the "out of true" measurements of the action you did this experiment on? Curious if this adds to the test you did.

Also to your ammo, did the brass fired in the "not trued well" chamberings create runout in the fired brass, also causing high runout ammo?


Thank you

Allen

I agree with most of what you have posted. I'm trying to understand the run out issue. Are you saying the chamber is not concentric to the bore?
I don't fool with squaring up factory 700s any more for a hunting rifle. If my hunting rifle will shoot 1"MOA with a cold clean barrel, a warm dirty barrel, and shoot to the same point of impact I'm good to go. It is my responsibility to handle the rest. Doesn't mean I don't care for a .100MOA rifle, it just ain't necessary for me.
My BR rifle is a different matter.

There ain't a damn thing wrong with a Remy that can't easily be fixed!

Take any stock Remy ($500),
Tune it up a little ($200),
Put a top flight barrel on it ($500),
A good stock ($500),
Have it properly bedded ($200),
A reliable trigger ($200),
Then index and Tig the bolt handle ($100)
And for only $2200 it will be all the rifle you'll ever need.

I guarantee it will be a great rifle and sub-moa with the right ammo!

In fact, it will be nearly as good as a stock Tikka!

Except that the action won't be as smooth, but another $600 will fix it right up!

"Good read Keith.

Did you by chance indicate the "out of true" measurements of the action you did this experiment on? Curious if this adds to the test you did.

Also to your ammo, did the brass fired in the "not trued well" chamberings create runout in the fired brass, also causing high runout ammo?


Thank you

Allen"

Allen, I did check to see how out of square the non trued actions were, and the worst was a SS 40x that was .013 out, and today that non trued action wears a 6 Dasher barrel that shoots in the 1's and low 2's. It will not however shoot groups in the zero's, but day in and day out, very low 2's is the norm. The bolt on this SS 40x does have a slight timing problem, but it still ejects cases fine.

When you start shooting groups below .300, wind is a major factor, and the vast majority of shooters will NOT use a wind flag or a target with mirage bars on it.

The most accurate load that I have ever shot the most zero's with was with my own 60g HP with a .070 meplat, .2433 shank plus a .2436 pressure ring, in a 6 BRX loaded with H335, McMillen stock, and Leupold 36X. I think that I could have one many, many benchrest matches on a National level with that rig, but I had rather eat a rat than shoot another registered match after my good friends passed away that I shot with.

Butch has probably forgot more than I will ever know about this stuff.

I post this for the many guys that want to shoot very small groups in a hunting rifle or Varmint rifle. Of course, for competition, no effort is spared to not leave any accuracy on the table.

Gunsmiths are forced to true actions today due to the public's perceptions on a perceived huge accuracy benefit from trued actions. Some gunsmiths just eat this up because they can true three actions in a morning. The pursuit of perfection is tremendous endeavor when you are chasing flaws in a mass produced item...even custom actions. Gunsmiths get blamed for anything and everything, thus they try and remove the most obvious objections. Guys that are shooting off a bean bag, off a bi pod, that don't know how to reload, and seat the bullets to book OAL force gunsmiths to go mad.

Many young men simply can not afford top of the line equipment, it is nice to put the few precious dollars of disposable income they do have to were it can make the most use...that would be in two wind flags with a cost of $100-160 max.

Using wind flags does not mean that you are going to start walking around with a limp wrist and start speaking with a a lisp.
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