Shot these today, starting left to right, all the same load. The flyer in the first group was a hard bolt close. Started with a clean barrel and waited about 7 minutes after the first group. Shot the 2nd group and was wondering what was going on. Waited about 30 minutes while I shot another rifle. Last 5 still not impressive. So how do i go from the 1st group showing so much promise to the next two showing no promise? Let's assume it's not the shooter and something is going on with the rifle.

Scope is a Leupold 6.5-20 Long range in NF rings and one piece base. Everything is tight and torqued to spec. Load is 51gr of H4831sc and Berger 87 VLDs about .010 jump. Weather conditions were fine, little breeze, distance 100 yards.

Why don’t I see any pictures?

Looks like I figured it out, just barely though.

Have you shot this rifle with a different scope? I would try that next. You probably checked the action screws?

Yes everything is snug and torqued, action screws as well. I was thinking scope, but I had this on another rifle with no issues but that doesn't mean things can change. Just wondering if there were other thoughts as to what might be going on.

Too much coffee? Not setting your rifle on the bags the same each time? Last time I saw this, my nephew was setting his sling stud on the bags and it was throwing everything off. Got him setting it right and his groups tightened right up.

Is the action bedded? Sure looks like something is shifting around.... Was the flier in the first group the last shot in the group?

Bob

I was shooting off a bipod with a leather rear bag for all the shots. Rifle is bedded and is well built. You mentioned swivel stud and I did shift the rifle height a little on the second two groups. Maybe the stud was catching in the bag? Worth taking a look at for sure. The flyer was the 3rd shot in the first group. Based on the first group the load would appear to be very good. For now I’m going to load more and bring a second scope and pay attention to the rear bag and swivel stud. I’d welcome any other thoughts and ideas.

Good to check and double check everything when this happens. I was referring to the front sling stud, but if you were using a bipod it doesn't really matter much. Might try a front bag instead of the bipod just for giggles to see if something weird is happening with the bipod mount or stock flex, or.....

Groups just don't go south like that unless something is loose, or some other cause that should be reasonably obvious once you find it... at least in my experience...

Bob

Try it without the bipod, just on bags. Put the front bag way back, about under the front of the receiver. If that works mo better, you may need a little relief in the barrel channel.

Barrel copper and or carbon fouled up in a hurry, your cleaning techniques were not good, left carbon in the barrel from previous firing?
Wind picked up? Changed directions
load is no dam good?

Different lot# of bullets
different lot# of powder

brass variations for a number of reasons

5 shot groups really heat up a barrel in this caliber, you are looking for bug hole groups, let the gun cool on 3 shot groups, repeat the group for consistancy.....

If nothing much changed related to brass, components, being of the same lot #, then one of three things happened

1.your barrel fouled
2.or wind changed directions

3.Years ago, I used regular cloth shot bags with washed play sand, and I was able to shoot very small groups, rear protector bag of course. If you are not shooting an Atlas or similar high quality bi pod, then the Bi pod issue is huge is highly probable.

.I hope you will buy a Lyman bore scope if you don't have one, carbon build up is something you are going to be chasing.

There are a bunch of things I'd ponder.

I'd consider the possibility that first group is a fluke, a result of a very small sample size.

I'd also look at all 3 targets overlaid as a single group as a more representative view of the rifle's accuracy.

I'd consider that hard bolt close ... why? Could the rest of the shells have the same issue though to a less noticeable degree causing them all to be fliers?

Is this a brand new, unproven barrel? Why is the load what it is? What else have you tried? If this is just something you put together because it was somehow recommended, but never tested in this rifle, then this sort of accuracy is not at all surprising. You're going to need to do real load development with different powders, different charges, and varying seating depths.

Also understand, if this is a new gun, some guns simply are not accurate with boat tails but are with flat based bullets ... and vice versa.

Tom

+1 in spades

Lots of good information being offered here. I'm taking it all in.

Hard bolt close suggests a super tight case, neck or throat especially in cold temperatures. Re-size the cases a little deeper.
But first, as mentioned by others, make sure the bore is clean and if you have a skinny barrel, let it cool after just 2 shots. They always 'walk' on the third shot. Also, don't forget to clean the throat, neck and chamber wall with a larger diameter -wet with cleaner- nylon brush after you clean the bore. rotate the brush at the shoulder area to get in the edges.
My favorite recipe for a good bore scrub is make about 10 smooth full-length passes back and forth with a caliber specific bore brush wrapped in 0000 steel wool and soaked in Hoppe's No 9 cleaner. It should take a little extra effort to run it through.
Then, wrap a piece of white paper towel around the brush and give it a squeeze. See how much dirt you took out. I actually found flakes of steel in one of my barrels using this method.
Follow up with a wet and dry patch. The dry patch should go through easily with little resistance. You can actually feel if the bore is clean and it should squeak.
Works for me.

I wouldn't say they always walk.

Looks mechanical or something happening at the bench. What’s brass feel like sized, but no bullets?

To each, his own Mathman, mine do in my featherweight barrels when I don't botch the shot.

I didn't say never, but there are plenty of counterexamples to always in this situation. Think of the population of Melvin Forbes NULA rifles with their skinny barrels.

Did you check cartridge run out? I would follow the previous advice but shoot more groups to see if there is a pattern. The first group could have been a fluke. Also if the barrel is new it may still be getting smoothed out.

I like this cleaning routine. Thanks for posting it.

Bipods on a bench will toss shots. The bipod skips when it recoils, long before the bullet clears the muzzle. -Al

Wow a lot of things to think about. I truly appreciate the feedback. I will have some time soon to get out to the range. Here's what's resonating with me.

Bipod, remove and shoot off my bags and front bench rest. Be mindful of the studs.

I'm going to sort my brass and find the ones that are tight. I have plugs to measure maximum oal case length for my chamber. From there I will trim cases and adjust case resized to make sure I'm bumping the shoulder back enough.

GIve the barrel a good clean to remove fouling. Barrel is a heavy Shilen, installed and receiver trued all by Shilen. Break in I'm not sure 100%. Rifle was my dads and there's a good chance he just started shooting. When I received it I gave it a good cleaning and then did a proper breakin. I don't own a borescope. Round count is under 250.

Then I'm going back to the range with the same loads and see what it does.

How does that sound?

You can do all of that but why not take it one step at a time?
Simply get off the bipod, use a good front and rear rest, focus on a good hold, a good trigger release (paying attention to wind conditions of course), shoot a few groups and see if they are better or show some consistency.

If they do then go to minuatie after that.

drover

Bang...Bipod Bitch Slap.

Simply SCRATCH schit from The List and Start From The Fhuqking Start.

Hint..................

Amen. -Al

'Tis a Dog Schit chambering to boot,but I'll save that for later.....................(grin)

It is hard to get most to listen in how their bi pod(po go stick) is tearing there Azz up.

It takes a GOOD release...to arrange POA/POI reliably.

Hint...............

Have you got it figured out?

Not exactly but better. Got rid of the bipod and read up on OCW. I applied the ocw concept to another load that showed some promise as well as the initial load that started this thread. These were all shot round robin. I used the same scope, so no issues with that. The initial tight group must have been luck but the more recent groups show promise. I paid close attention to the swivel studs too while on the bags. Any thoughts or comments?

Not bad but to me it looks like there might still be a bedding issue. I would still check cartridge run out at least do a roll test on a piece of glass if you don't have the means to measure run out.

What action is it? -Al

I too think something is going on with the bedding. It's a Rem 700 action. Everything was done by Shilen Barrels. It's a heavy stainless match SHilen barrel fully floated back to the lug. I pulled the barreled action and nothing jumps out at me as being off. Action drops into the stock solid, no slop. Bottom metal fits good, and action screws drop in and turn freely with no binding. It does have a magazine box and I did have a rifle that suffered from shifting poi due to a magazine box that was too big and created a pivot point in the middle of the action. I will take the mag box out and shoot to see if anything changes. The other item to check is the recoil lug. IT's a Holland oversized lug and I haven't checked the fit yet. Not sure if it's tight front and back. If my recollection is right, should the front side of the lug be slightly relieved with the backside making contact? Anyways, that's where I'm at.

I will also check runout when I load this week, maybe tonight. I'd like to get back to the range this week.

I did some reading on recoil lug bedding. I have to double check but mine seems to be a tight fit all the way around which makes sense to me. But what I need to check is the lug bottoming out.

Make sure there's adequate clearance around the action screws. You'll want the pillar i.d. to be at least .312 (5/16"). The bottom metal also needs to fit the bottom of the pillars...most need some epoxy to to accomplish this. -Al

Why not just remove the swivel studs? In about 30 seconds they both would be removed and it is one less thing that could be causing the issue. All the swivel stud has to do is bump the front bag to cause a thrown shot. If the rear stud is riding on the bag then you surely will have thrown shots, and if you are setting the rear bag a bit forward to make sure the rear stud is not riding on the bag then often the pistol grip will bump the rear bag causing thrown shots.

drover

Swivel studs have been removed. I swear, if that was the problem I will have learned a valuable lesson.

Actually, the loads all look pretty consistent as far as accuracy and groups. Usually once I get to this point in my load I start adjusting my powder levels a bit at a time and once you find a sweet spot adjust seating depths a few thousandths at a time. I like to be approximately .005" - .010 off the lands but different bullets like Barnes, like a bit more jump.

Every step is slightly incremental- I've found that each step I have added to my routine over the years usually gives me just a little bit until I get where I want to be. I found deburring my flash holes was good for just a little, cleaning my primer pockets and getting a solidly seated primer was good for consistency. Checking every powder load and cleaning the pivot in my powder measure to be sure it is measuring accurately helped, etc.... every step makes some difference, even if you can't tell right away. But usually to tighten groups it takes the right powder load and seating depth - concentricity is way down my list of things to worry about. Most good loading dies will load darned straight ammo without much help. Try going up a few tenths in your powder load until you start to show pressure signs with the more promising loads- even though I can't tell from your pics which ones those would be....

The chase is half to fun to me- maybe not to you....

Bob

Same brass manufacturer?
Neck tension issue
Sometimes, despite all your best efforts it just happens that way.

I had based my reply on removing the sling studs on your comment about paying attention to your comment - "I paid close attention to the swivel studs too while on the bags."

Hope you get it sorted out.

drover

Thanks Drover, removing them would have been the smarter thing to do in the first place so appreciate the reminder. I do enjoy the chase, which is probably why I reload. But it feels like something else is going on, based on my belief the rifle should be more inherently accurate with how it's put together and the componets being used. I will get back to the range this week and hopefully find out. These darn swivel studs have got me thinking.....

That one needs a going over. Bedding and barrel crown can be an easy fix. Cartridge and case run out is another big item and easy to detect. Scopes, loose bedding and other items are more difficult to detect. Bad barrel can be a fairly common problem. Address one item at a time until you have eliminated as many as possible. If that doesn't fix it either get used to it or re-barrel and re-build.