http://www.indiancreekss.com/home.htm

These tubes swept every class at last years NWTF Still Target Championships. They won every single class. The Black Diamond Strike choke tubes hold the current worlds for shotgun and muzzle loader shotgun as well.

Here's the world record target of 54 shot inside the 3" red circle.



These choke tubes are made in Frohna MO. That's not too far from me. They are making some great choke tubes.

Thats not that great of a hunting pattern. Alot of holes and its not very round. Theres a difference between a hunting pattern and still target pattern.

I just ordered an Indian Creek Black Diamond Strike for my Benelli M1S90 Camo Turkey Gun. We'll see how it pans out soon...

That may be true, but I will bet there isn't a turkey gun on here that can shoot that many shot inside a 3" circle including any of yours at 40yds. It is what it is. It's one dead turkey regardless.

3 inch circle mean nothing when patterning a turkey gun. Especially when there is holes in the pattern around the 3 inch like that pattern has. Look right of the circle theres a spot where a turkeys head would fit thats unexceptable to me. I'd also be willing to bet some of the guys on here shooting nitros can beat that in a 3 inch everytime.

Well I invite you and your buddies guns to attend the shoot. I got money that says they won't win.

Your talking about loads that have #7.5 shot mixed in. You can't use them.

Rules
for conducting a sanctioned NWTF Wild Turkey Still-Target Shoot
RULES:
Distance of targets 40 yards
Shooting position Sitting
Barrel length Not to exceed 32� (including choke tube)
No mechanical rest allowed
Ammunition (provided by event host) Factory loads-12 ga. 3� & 20 ga. 3�
Shot size #4 - #5 - #6
Classes 12 ga. Open, 12 ga. Blackpowder Muzzleloader,
20 ga. Open, Ladies 20 ga., JAKES 20 ga.
Optics Scopes are allowed
Sights All styles
Target Most shot in 3� circle
� Must be an NWTF member
� Must display the sanctioned shoot banner in a prominent place in shooting area.
� There must be a range captain who is in charge of safety.
� Must use official NWTF targets.
� All shooters must wear eye and ear protection.
� Determining Winner and Runner Up: Once the Winner has been determined by the Finalists
shooting until an individual has won two squads, the remaining individuals will shoot another round,
with high score being the Runner up. This method ensures that Winner and Runner up are different
individuals.
� RULE CHANGE FOR 2008: Winner and Runner Up cannot be the same individual. If there is
only one individual in a division, there is no runner up. If there isn�t another individual in the
finals, runner up is shot off between semifinalist. If there aren�t any other individuals in the
semifinalists, runner up is shot off among other participants.
Blackpowder Muzzleloader Shotgun Division:
� Blackpowder Muzzleloader Shotgun: There will be an additional division added to the competition
where there is interest and available materials. All rules governing the shotgun divisions will be in place
with these exceptions:
� There is no limit on barrel plus choke tube length.
� No more than 100 grains of blackpowder FF or FFF, and no more than 2 ounces by weight of #6 shot
will be allowed.

________________________________________________________________

Again, I have shot Hevi-Shot loads, and yes they do shoot a little tighter patterns. And yes that is what these guys are using as well. All are using #6 loads. I myself don't think the Hevi-Shot loads are worth the cost. I will stick with my 90% patterns with Win Supreme 2 and 1/4oz #4 loads. It kills turkeys probaly farther thanany other load or shotgun out there.

Also, I had a Browning Gold auto 3.5" that shot a 98% pattern at 40yd with a 3" Hevi-Shot 1 and 3/4oz #6 load, and I can tell you that even drawing a 3" circle around the tightest part of the pattern the best it did was 36 shot. 54 is incredidble regardless if you think so.

Still target shoots mean nothing to the turkey hunter. Patterns with holes are fine as long as the 3 inch circle is good. Thats not good for hunting but I do think 54 hits is good if thats what matters to you. I also prefer lead. Fiocchi number 5's or 4's make me happy.

wisturkeyhunter,

Again, the 3" red circle is the name of the game at this shoot. And again, if you have a gun that can shoot that many shot on a turkey neck or even close to that many right down central each and everytime, you are going to kill a lot of turkeys. I agree with you the pattern has holes. But I can also say that none of my barrels on any of my shotguns will beat that target at least in the 3" circle.

I have killed a buch of turkeys over the years. 3 of them by bow which ain't too shabby. I have found what I think is the ultimate turkey buster. The Mossberg 835 is simply put one of the best #4 shot shooting shotguns on the market. I can put 33% and sometimes more of a 2 and 1/4oz Win Supreme #4 load in a piece of standard copy paper at 40yds. Now that is devastating to any gobbler even at like I said 50yds or even farther. Most standard 12GA barrels won't shoot heavy #4 turkey loads(2oz or heavier) near as well as they will shoot 5's or 6's. I know that to be true as well. 4 shot just kills turkeys better at farther distances like 50yds or beyond. It's nice to kill them closer, but not every gobbler will obey that rule. I would much rather pack a big gobbler over my shoulder that has hung up at 50-55yds than to say I will wait another day and hopefully call him in closer.

I'm looking at the size of that turkey head, and wondering where to the right you are saying it would fit? Off the paper?

I should have typed brain instead of head. There is a spot to the right where a turkeys brain could squeeze in but the point I was trying to make is a great hunting pattern is really even and still dense that pattern is really dense but leaves a little to be desired in the even department.

Brad,

I've got an older 835 that I love. I've been shooting the same Winchesters in #5 shot. Which choke are you using to get such tight patterns?

Thanks.

H.S. Undertaker .695 choke works the best with Winchester Supreme 2 and 1/4oz #4 loads using my Mossberg 835.

The Lohman Long Shot turkey choke seems to work the best with Federal Premium 2 and 1/4oz #5 loads. I can get 90% patterns with this setup and load.

Here's a picture of the Lohman tube.



I can get 90% patterns with the Federal Premium 2 and 1/4oz #6 loads using a Carlson's .675 choke tube.

Thanks, Brad. I'm shooting 3", 2oz, #5 Win Supreme and Fed loads. My Mossberg turkey choke pattern within about a 10" circle at 30 yards. The HS Undertaker is ok, but the pattern is more like a bunch of small groups.

I bought some newer Federals with a fancy wad on my way home from the range today, at least it looks cool on the packaging. I'm hoping these shoot a little tighter.

Usually that Federal load with the "fancy wad" (Flite Control) likes a non-wadstripping choke tube. Many chokes, especially the off the shelf factory type have some sort of mechanism to strip the wad from the shot load. Indian Creek actually does make a choke without a wad stripping feature (IC makes both types of choke tube) that would probably work best for the Flite Control wad. But ya never know until you shoot on paper...

taz,

I bought 3 of the Undertaker choke tubes and kept the 1 that shot the best. I took the others 2 back to wally world for a refund. The Undertaker seems to shoot the 4 shot Win loads the best out of all the choke tubes I have tried. For #5 loads, you need a tighter choke tube around .680 for your best patterns. But my Undertaker still shoots all the shot well. For 6 shot, I think the .675 constriction seems to work about the best with Federal loads.

Thanks, MOG and Brad. Maybe I should go with #4s with my 835?

I've got a few boxes of those in Win and Fed.

A guy I know says: "Friends don't let friends shoot #4 lead for turkeys"

There's alot of truth in that statement. I've never seen a good pattern with #4s.

In the 835 I'd recommend the Pure Gold, Indian Creek, Primos Jelly Head, or the discontinued Star Dot if you can find one.

If you want the best patterns available with a turkey set-up and factory ammo, try H13 #6s. They carry more energy than #4 lead and pattern better than lead period. If you want even better patterns, buy Nitros. The only thing better than Nitros are handloads.

These are 40yard patterns with an 835 shooting handloads and a Star Dot .676 choke tube(10" circle counts):

2.25oz of 6 hevi shot:




2.25oz of #7 hevi shot(power of #5 lead):



Nitros will not come close to those, but they are the best available shell to the public.



Good Luck

Reloader7RM

The guy you know lied to you.

I can put about 275 shot out of the 305 shot total from a 2 and 1/4oz #4 load in a 30" circle consistently at 40yds with my 835 and Undertaker choke. You do the math on the pecentage. My 835 will put approx 450+ shot in a 30" circle at 40yds using the Federal Premium 2 and 1/4oz #6 loads and a Carlson .675 choke. That's 90% patterns as well.

I'll stick with my #4 loads that cost me about a $1 a pop. I can kill turkeys out to 60yd from my experience using them.

The Browning Gold 3.5" with 1 and 3/4oz #6 Hevi-Shot loads shot a 98% pattern at 40yds with a .670 Comp-n-Choke. I put I believe 181 shot in a 8.5" 11" piece of paper at 40yds. That's not too bad for 1 and 3/4oz loads. But like I said, I like #4's. I sold the Browning after I bought the 835 because it simply shot heavy #4 loads better.

The Mossberg 835 is an awesome turkey gun.
I've taken turkeys that hung up around 50 yards with Nitro #5 shot and the stock, X-Full lead choke.

If you can get good patterns with 4's than use them I use both 4's and 5's and my patterns are plenty dense over 150 in a 10 inch at 40 which makes me happy enough. Not near as dense as that #7 handloaded hevi but my pellets are hitting harder and I save money to buy calls which I'd rather spend the money on. Hevi shot hits as hard as one shot size of lead bigger at most. No way that 7's are hitting like 5's. I've read enough reports of people weighing the stuff to know the difference ain't that big.

That's funny right there.

You should join the Old Gobbler Forum and see what guns can do

30" doesn't mean much for turkey hunting IMO, I pattern shotguns all the time.

Take a steel tape and measure 40 yards from your bbl tip and tell me how many of those no 4s you put in a 10" circle and 20" circle. I'm willing to bet it's not over 70-80 pellets max.

I have NEVER seen a #4 pattern worth a flip at a real measured 40 yards. If you killed them at 60, you simply got a lucky pellet.

Good Luck

Reloader7RM

Not true wis, I talk with guys all the time that live handloading turkey guns as well as myself. #7 hevi will hit as hard or harder than #5 lead for a fact. We do penetration testing to prove loads. The thing with hevi is you have denser pellets that are harder than steel with less surface area. That leads to more penetration. Turkey killing is all about penetration plain and simple. #7 hevi will kill at 70 yards

At 60 yards the handloaded 7s will put more pellets in a 10 than most good patterning turkey guns will at 40 yards. A friend of mine is using tungsten 18 g/cc and t19g/cc pellets in #8 and #9 that hit like #4 and #3 lead and hold patterns over 100 at 70 yards They penetrate far better than lead 4s It's all about the denisity, hardness, and patterns for the ultimate turkey loads.

Ya'll have a good One,

Reloader7RM

No lucky pellet. I can kill any gobbler that walks consistently at 50yds very easily with this setup. I think you guys need to wake up and smell the coffee about your 10" circle and how many shot you are putting supposedly in it. You got world record guns is all I can say if you do the math what the guys are putting in a 3" circle at 40yds with barrels that aren't factory made. I know what the Hevi-Shot load will in fact do. The Nitrto 7.5 will shoot denser because there is a lot more shot there. Kind of like shooting match guns that I have shot or seen shoot that will shoot the densest patterns. Your guns you say that put that many shot in a 10" circle will easily beat the records in existence I guess is what your saying. 54 shot in a 3" circle at 40yds is the current world record with Hevi-Shot 2oz #6 loads. That's pretty damn good. Take that 3" circle times 3 and you tell me you can with 1" over the 9" circle put 150 shot of #4's in a 10" circle at 40yds which don't have near the number of shot. Come on. I been shooting too long to believe that one. You guys need to get real. I'm from the Show-Me state. I invite you and your guns to attend the NWTF shoot. You can even use your reloads and I still say you won't win with a 2oz load of #6's.

Kind of reminds me of the guy that said his brothers gun would blow a turkey head off at 40yds. It shot that tight. I said well let's go shoot that baby at the range. I got a gun that I bet will give it a run. After about 10 minutes of him shooting and me shooting, he was scratching his head and singing a different tune.

I see the same thing about guys that have a tackdriving 22 that will shoot holes all day long at 50yds. You get them out at the range and they never seem to be able to prove it. I got a a 22 that will shoot groups with the very best guns out there at 50yds. But I got a lot of money in it. It will shoot 5 shot groups in the low .1's very easily.

Why are 70 yard patterns even talked about amongst supposed turkey hunted hunters? If my gun patterns good enough to kill one everytime at 50 yards which means over 100 hits in the 10 inch for me it give me 10 yards of room for error cause I don't ever plan to shoot one over 40. You having high praise for the old gobbler forum only makes sense.

BradC, you need to smell the coffee my friend. You don't have a clue. "3" circle times 3 equals a 9" circle," that's funny right there Study your math a little.

Like I said, bring your bad self over to some other forums. BTW those NWTF winners are on those forums

You can believe what you want. I will say I'll put my money where my mouth is. If you come to my range, I will pay you $1,000 if your turkey rig you keep praising will hold a candle to any of mine. I've spent thousands of dollars and countless hours developing loads that will beat anything out there. I don't do it for bragging rights, it's a hobby several of my friends and I have and we are always looking to better our rigs. They wouldn't allow handloads at the NWTF shoots as it wouldn't be an equal playing field as it is now. If they allowed handloads, that 54 count world record would be left in the past. I prefer 7s or 6x7s in my loads, but have a friend that's getting 340s-350s in a ten at 40 with his straight 6 loads. I simply prefer more hits on target.

I say again, measure with a tape from barrel tip to target and tell me how many you get in a ten inch circle at 40 yds.

Wis, back to your comment, never said anything about shooting them that far. I can with ease, but I prefer a 30-40 yard shot as much as the next guy. If they hang up around 50-60 I can take them easily as well. It's a hobby just as target shooting rifles. It cost alot of money, but I enjoy it alot and know several others that are pretty hard core about it as well. It's pretty satisfing seeing how handloads can be so efficient in shotguns. It is a good safety factor though, If a bird hangs up at what's thought to be 50yds and he's actually 60, he's going down with these types of loads. I'll probably also be using some of my 3" loads with a mere 1-3/4oz of shot as they are printing consistent 320s in a ten at 40yds.

Ya'll have a good one,

Reloader7RM

comment,

I think your missing the point. We can shoot the exact same factory loads, and I doubt you would do any better at 40yds in 10" circle.

A 3" circle doubled in a 6" circle is it not? 1.5" in diameter all the way around will give you a 3" circle. 3" in diameter on a compass will give you a 6" circle. So 1.5 time 3 which is 4.5" in diameter will give you a 9" circle.

I'd bet money that my 835 will shoot any # 4 load as good as any factory shotgun you have.

BradC,

I see how you are mistaking it, but area is pi*radius squared for circles.

The area of a 3" circle is 7.069 square inches, so 3 3" circles are only 21.207 square inches. A single 9" circle contains 63.617 square inches, so a single 9" circle is roughly 3 times larger than three 3" circles combined.

My theory is that a load should place roughly 1 pellet per square inch in a circle with and evenly dispersed pattern at your max range to be effective for turkey. That is roughly 80 pellets in a 10" circle. It's always better to have a safety factor for the fact that no two patterns are equal even from the same gun, so I feel it's best to have at least 100 evenly dispersed pellets in a 10" circle consistently at your max range. Vary the range until you see the 100 hits in a 10 consistently to find the max range of any gun/choke/load's effective range. It may be 25yds for some rigs and may be 75yds for others. That doesn't mean it's ethical to shoot that far, but it's a good method IMO to determine the effective range of any given combo. I do that with most of my rigs and it seems to pay off in the hunting fields.

I'll be guiding a youth in a few weeks and intend to pattern his 20ga before long. I picked up a box of #6 hevi and a couple boxes of Winchester #5 lead. I hope it will get to 30 yds with one of those combos, but want a nice even and fairly large pattern in case he gets too excited.

Have a Good One,

Reloader7RM

Do you actually shoot TURKEYS? or just pictures of them?

This thread has turned silly. If you're trying to sell an Indian Creek Choke to turkey hunters, I would not have posted the pattern. It is riddled with holes in the pattern. Could care less how many holes are in a 3" circle. If I shot that pattern, I'd be using a different load or choke.

Just curious why they do the 12 ga contests with 3" loads.
Pop guns.
Gimme the 3-1/2" all day!!

My 835 Mossberg with a 28" barrel KILLS my Rem 870 Wingmaster with a 30" full barrel.
Its the 3-1/2" shell vs the 3" that does it.

Reloader,

I guess I owe you an apology.

This guy here had some awesome results with Hevi-Shot reloads. This is a 10" circle. I can't believe the results.

I have tried the factory Rem Hevi-Shot loads(1 and 3/4oz #6 and 1 and 7/8oz #5) and didn't get near this reult. But I did get a 98% pattern at 40yds with the 1 and 3/4oz #6 loads in a 30" circle.

Now that's a good hunting pattern.

I know that fella

No need for an apology, this stuff is fairly new and the word hasn't gotten out so to speak.

If you are talking about those Old White 1-3/4oz #6 H13s, those were some awesome shells. I still have about 14 boxes of them and they commonly shoot around 215 in a 10 at 40 with a few going 225, 234, and 242. Not bad for a mere 1-3/4oz of 6 shot. Those shells actually out pattern the newer Hevi 13 loads for me, even the 3.5" loads. Since the Old Whites stop being produced, it sort of sparked my handloading project.

Hevi 13 has a slower velocity and often chronos from 975-1100 fps with most going around 1030 IME. I wanted to produce loads that outpatterned them with more speed. I finally settled on a 3" handload with only 1-3/4oz of #6 hevishot that was averaging mid 220s from short 23" bbl Remingtons at 1200 fps. That was better than any factory ammo I could find(I bought 100s of dollars of the best on the market), so my goal had been reached with a nice light recoiling 3" load that outperformed all factory ammo. Then, I started loading 3.5 loads to see how they compared to the ultimate ammo available to the public, Nitro Ammo Co. That challenge resulted in a 2.25" 6x7 hevi load(1240fps) that averages 390s in the 23" bbl 870SM and a 2.25oz straight 7 hevi load that goes around 415 from the 23" 870SMs and over 500 with the 835. The 835 will hands down outpattern an 870, but I just don't care to hunt with my 835 as it's been very undependable. It will make my handloads really shine, but I prefer to hunt with my Remington 23" bbld guns, so I primarily test in them. I also developed a 1-3/4 oz 3" straight hevi 7 load along the way that averages 320s in a 10 at 40 from 23" bbls. Longer bbls commonly pattern better, but I prefer to test from the short bbl guns I hunt with. Those 3.5s blew Nitros out of the water, so my goals were met and I feel the loads turned out well. It's been an expensive, but pretty productive project.

Have a Good One,

loder

Have you tried the newest nitro 3.5 inch shell? Think its 2 7/16 of hevi's. I know guys are getting over 300 with them and thats with the bigger shot mixed in. I'm pretty happy with the way my gun is shooting with cheap lead ammo but if I was going to go with heavier than lead I'd skip the factory stuff and go right to nitros. I don't see a big enough of an improvment with hevi-13 or xtended range over what I'm shooting now.

I was talking about the Remington Hevi-Shot green and yellow boxes that they quit making. They shot real good out of my Browning auto i used to have. I was shooting a 3" #6 load of the 1 and 3/4oz Hevi-Shot and put 181 shot in a piece of copy paper with a turkey head on it. I don't know what that equivalates to be as how many shot that would have been in a 10" circle though.

Here's the same guy I mentioned above with 1 and 3/4oz loads.

Wis, I haven't tried them and probably will not. I will say that the larger shot mixed in is soley marketing and for the hunter. The 7s kill the turkeys and the larger shot satisfy the hunter. Every Nitro I've seen disected had a very small qtty of the larger pellets and if you'll notice that every pattern pic you see of them has very little if any larger holes in the 10" circle. I know that the 7s put up the numbers and give the impacts to the birds, so I like straight 7s. That said, a relative is still in the mindset of lead and wanted 6s mixed in his loads so we went with 1.25oz of 7s and 1oz of 6s in his loads and actually had good results with 390s at 40 yds in the 10" circles out of a short 23" bbl. I'd expect those loads to go around 450 in my 835, but just haven't run them in it. The patterns had quite a few of the larger holes as well.

The best patterning weather is 70s-80s, no wind, and high humidity IME. To test our loads in poor weather, we shot last weekend in the 50s with a breeze and lower humidity. That range session produced a 162 and 153 with the 3.5" straight 7 at 60yards in a 10" circle from two 23" bbl 870s. 138 with the 6x7 and 109 with the 1-3/4oz 7 from a 23" bbl as well. All of those were 60 yard 10" counts. That's a long ways, but if a bird hangs up at whats thought to be 50 and actually turns out to be a bit further, we're covered.

Brad,

Those old Remington hevis were good shells as well.

Ya'll Have a Good One,

Reloader7RM

Hero's all.

I just want to kill turkeys at 30 yards, like I usually do.

what are you guy's reffering to when you are talking about "nitro's"?

nitrocompany.com
They are the best commercially loaded turkey ammo...hands down.

Mike

At six dollars a shot...I'll stick to factory loads. I'll keep shooting those silly birds at -40 yards.

Yep, I completely understand. If I shot a 12ga gun, I'd never bother with Nitros, but in a 20ga they almost double the pattern. They truly bring the 20ga up to 12ga levels and in a lot of cases, beyond a 12ga. To each, his own!
And, the vast majority of my turkeys are killed inside 30yrds. I never intend to shoot one past 40yrds, but I've misjudged a couple over the years.

Mike

Yep, me too. I have misjudged 3. One was more like mid 50's and was my first bird. Shot with a 12ga.

The other two were with a 20ga. 1 @ 42 yds 1 @ 49yds. Last years bird was at 7yds. No misjudging there.

There are some great guns, choke tubes, and shot now days. I've killed about 30-35 Turkeys, and 2 have been over 30 yards. As in business, it's location, location, location. The thrill for me is to drop the hammer, or release that arrow at about 15 yds. I prefer a tight even pattern, with #5 shot. I have recently put a truglo sight with an aperature sight in the back, and fiber optic in the front. Tight patterns, means good aim. I find this sight to be top notch. I do not believe still turkey shoots represent true hunting situations. impressive patterns for sure, but too tight can sometimes lead to missed or worse crippled birds. Even pattern is where it is at. Just my 2 Cts.