I have a friend who is in a bad situation and I'd like to pick your brains for some advice.

Last week he bought a nice old Winchester M70 in .257 Roberts on GunBroker. The seller was a pawnshop in Texas. This is a rifle my buddy had wanted for years and he saved and swapped off several items to make the purchase. He's been cradling the thing like a newborn baby since it arrived.

Today, his phone rang and it was the police dept in the Texas town where the pawnshop is located. Turns out the gun was stolen and will have to be returned. My friend is understandably heartbroken and angry at this turn of events.

My question: Have any of you ever been in a similar situation? Does my friend have any recourse with the seller to ensure that he makes it right as far as a refund of the cost of the gun, his FFL fees, shipping, etc? Will GunBroker offer any support in cases like this?

The whole thing leaves a bad taste in my mouth and makes me leery of internet transactions, although I suppose the same sort of thing could have happened locally.

Thanks for any advice you can offer.

Rod

If the theft was covered by insurance to the original owner the gun now belongs to the insurance company. The insurance company will get the gun from the police. They can then sell it to who ever they want to recover their investment. If your friend really wants that particular rifle then I suggest he try to get to the insurance company. At least this is how I have seen it handled in Minnesota.

As to GB and the dealer I would think GB would support the dealer to return the money to the buyer. As for the fees and shipping he may be out of luck.

Sorry to hear this sad story.

OUCH!!! Not a hundred dollar rifle either. Thanks for the heads up. I haven't really considered that possibility.

It should be up to the Pawn Shop to reimburse, at least here in Colorado it would be. The Pawn Shops here are not to sell an item until they have cleared the serial numbered merchandise through the police dept. (especially guns) Once that is complete they then have to wait, I believe, 30 days more to make sure no report has been made. Then they can put it up for sale. I would check with the police in the jurisdiction of the pawn shop and see if they screwed up. It's a sticky situation either way. Ryan

Bushwacker, with what I said about Minnesota and the insurance company now owning the gun is that the same in Colorado?

I agree with you about the sticky situation

Well, I had a situation in New York State where a gun I bought from a dealer was "thought" to be stolen. According to the police, before the info was found to be in error, I was to turn it over to the local State Police barracks and that was it.

I would have had to try to get the dealer to compensate me but that would have probably ended in court and I would have probably lost the case. The dealer bought the gun in good faith and sold it the same way. It seems that the last person holding the gun is the one out of luck. Of course, laws vary in different states.

LRF, In Colorado when if the insurance company pays out for something and then the item is recovered, then it is the property of the insurance company and can be bought back by any of the owners. I would expect that they would offer it for sale back to the original owner first. Either way the end buyer is getting screwed. Not a good resolution for any party other then the original owner and insurance. It leaves the buyer and the Pawn Shop on the hook.

Thats sorta ironic that it's the same rifle my dad had on consignment at the Syracuse gunshow years ago....and it got stolen from the gunshow. Win M-70 in 257. Seems I remember the original owners Homeowners policy covered it.

Don't assume anything.

Don't assume that your friend is required to bend over and spread his cheeks. Don't assume that Goober from Texas is who he says he is, or that he is giving you the straight information. Police make mistakes. At a minimum, ask for documentation. Ask your local PD or State Police for advice, and to get involved. (Don't assume local/State PD will know what to do, or give a rat's behind about the issue.) Contact the pawnshop, GB, and the Texas PD. If your friend purchased it in good faith, he has nothing to lose except money. Anticipate push back (threats) from Texas for even asking questions. It is perfectly reasonable to ask for verification. It is not unreasonable to ask for compensation. If at some point the information you get from the various parties does not fit or sound correct, slow down the process, and investigate a bit more.

Whether original owner wants it back, LE needs it for evidence, GB or pawn shop can make restitution, the theft report is legitimate, are just some of the thousands of possibilities in this scenario. One fact: your friend is the current possessor, and has much more control of the situation than the Texas PD may let on. If your friend is a hard nose, the Texas PD will have to jump through many hoops to get that rifle. Texas is a long way from Michigan.

Don't get me wrong. I am very pro-LEO, and the majority of my hunting partners are LEO. Nearly every gun I have I would want back, if stolen from me. With every used gun I purchase, I anticipate I may have to give it back due to it being stolen at some point in its history. I would regret the loss of the gun, but understand the risk of buying used. The reason for "XX" crossing out the last digits of serial numbers in internet posts is to hide the potential of having to return a gun to its previous rightful owner. I don't "X"-out serial numbers, and I have no problem returning a gun. However, I will ensure it goes to the rightful owner before I give it over.

In TX pawn shops, purchases have to be held for 21 days, for most jurisdictions, a few are 15 days.

Most shops report buys/loans via Leadsonline, some do not. Those that don't provide the local police/sheriffs departments with hard copies.

This is a pretty strange deal. I would inquire as to when the rifle was reported stolen, who pawned/sold the rifle.

I do own a pawn shop in TX, but I am not the one that sold said rifle.

Jason

My home owners policy maxes out at $3000 less deductible. Found this out by chance as I always assumed my policy covered everything. Only way I am told to get more coverage on them is a separate rider on the policy. As I remember the rider was quite expensive for my assortment. This prompted me to buy a good safe. Certainly policies vary state to state and others might find different offerings.
I would hope that the insurance company would give the original owner first shot at recovered firearms. Especially if the value of the stolen items exceeded his policy limits.

I would very much doubt that gunbroker would be of any help in the matter.

Good advice. Thanks guys. Please keep it coming.

Has anybody ever been in a situation like this in which you had been the unknowing recipient of a stolen gun? If so, how was it resolved?

Rod

Mine is $2500 less $500 deductable for theft but full coverage less deductable for fire. Most home owners policies are similar. If you want to buy additional coverage for theft it is expensive. I looked into it once and figured if I paid the premiums for 15 years and didn't claim a theft...the total cost of coverage was more than the value of my collection. If you think your guns are fully covered under your regular homeowners policy for theft....you are probably wrong

Guns are not separated out of a policy by USAA

Huh?

USAA told me they will cover an unlimited value of guns in my house with no additional policy.

Drew I have USAA and my guns are insured under Valuable Personal Property. This is part of my homeowners but added on.Tom

I've never bought a stolen one but had one stolen in transit thru FedEx. I keep an eye out for it.

Rod, the best advice I've heard here is to make dam sure the requesting party back in Texas is a legit LEO. This sorta sounds like an opportunity for a whole new internet related scam job.

Alright a little misinformation being floated here. Now I can't speak for texas but most laws are the same when it comes to guns. I manage a pawn shop so here is what i know. Guns are regulated by the federal government so they are exempt from the 21 or 30 day waiting period to sell after purchase. Local laws cannot superceed federal law. The pawn shop (if proper paperwork was filed) is not liable for selling an item later deemed to be stolen. The original seller is required to make resitution to whomever posses the gun at time of confiscation. IE they are licensed to buy items and have all the neccessary paperwork so unless there is someway to prove they knew the items were stolen they are off the hook. Usually leaves you trying to collect money from some no name dirtbag who has no money to give you so you get a check for 20 bucks every six months. Any reputable pawn shop would issue a refund upon the return of the gun. IE call the shop, mail the gun back to the shop then let the shop turn the gun over to police so they can get resitution. If you turn it over to the police yourself the shop has no way to get restitution and they won't issue a refund. As far as keeping the gun goes once it is in the hands of the police its gone. I doubt the original owner will ever see it again. Gonna end up in some deputies gunsafe somewhere after it rots in evidence room for 5 years. Tell your buddy to document every phone call and get names and don't turn the gun over till he absolutly has too. Most cases never even end up being prosicuted and the gun dissapears. Basically if the pawn shop doesn't feel like refunding the money he is up Sh$t creek and he is gonna end up with no gun and no money. We have only ever had a few items come up stolen and confiscated from the people we sold them to. I work with the police to have the item picked up from my store and have the purchaser bring it to me (I issue a full refund) and then I turn it over to the police and in turn am the last owner so I am in line to deal with the restitution nightmare. Makes for good customers and a solid business name and really is just the right thing to do. Plus I usually have only 25 percent of the cost the purchaser did so I have less to lose. Anyway hope that helps. PM me for my phone number I'd be happy to talk to you about it. The gun community is pretty small so word gets around in a hurry and unless the pawn shop is owned by a total dirtbag he is gonna do what is necessary to make it right. Don't get mouthy or pushy cause legally he really doesnt have to do anything for you but if you are straightforward and courtious you should recieve a refund on return of the item. BTW I a rifle just like that in the store six months ago.

Fire, yeah. Theft??? Most homeowner policies don't cover theft without buying additional coverage.

Theft and fire are 2 different ballgames. It's easy to defraud a theft claim. Not so many people willing to burn their houses down to collect the insurance on their guns.

But...you can leave feedback on gunbroker that the seller sold you a stolen gun and didn't make good on it. The threat of that should make him see the light. That kind of posted feedback would pretty much put him out of business on GB

BTW it the police responsibity to check the description and serial numbers turned bought or pawned on by the pawn shop not the pawns shops responsibility. Police need to check serial numbers against all pawn reports or sheets they get on a daily or weekly basis. The pawn shop is only required to hold the item 30 days not to check or clear anything. If the police are slow(lolololololol) the item may pass the 30 days and be sold long before they come to collect it. Guns however are easy to track as they have all the pertinant info of the buyer on hand for the ATF to inspect. Thus they are exempt from the 30 day waiting period. People always assume the pawn shop has a magic crystal ball to someone determine if an item is stolen or not but that is the police departments responsibility to make that determination.

Not a safe assumption. I know for a fact that Omaha has a 10 day waiting period for ANY dealer to sell a used firearm. Local regs can't override federal regs, but they can expand on them. And there's no federal regs saying that a dealer is allowed to sell a used firearm immediately.

Cabela's over by Omaha actually is i La Vista, a suburb, in order to get away from city regs regarding registration of handguns and holding periods for used firearms.

In TX, in the county that my shop is in, we have to hold all purchases 21 days, whether it be jewelry, tools, firearms etc, before we can place on the floor to sell.

Calhoun, is correct, the city/county/state regulations cannot be less restrictive but can be more stringent.

In my paperwork it states that any items regulated by a federal agency is exempt from the 30 day waiting period. Guns I purchase are cleaned checked for safe operation and immediatly put out for sale. I'm not sure how other states or municipalities do it but that is how we do it here.

I don't know chit about the law, but, conceptually speaking, your business is a dream come true for the criminal element.

Wow!...

I have USAA and they cover everything for fire but NOT theft. You must have a rider for theft.

RH

I had a similar situation in Fl. I bought a bow tech bow from a pawn shop and two weeks later a deputy called me and said that it was stolen. After much stress as I had sold my old bow and it was midway through bow season, the deputy called me back and said that the bow was mine. The seller (thief) was responsible to cover all the cost. He told me that if they took the bow from me that I would be a second victim. I'm sure that a gun is a little different, but there is recourse if your up to the aggravation.

Just curious, how do you report all your transactions? Not trying to flame or start a battle, just curious. How are your firearm purchases reported to the local police/sheriff?

Thanks,
Jason

I am just taking a little guess, here that the thief was a relative (son, daughter, wife etc) and in cases such as this the pawn shop will not take a loss.

No it was a theft from a bow shop. The police traced the thief through the pawn transaction. They left me hanging for several weeks but in the end let me keep the bow.

Mine are the same way....above a certain value individual items, whether they be guns or jewelry, whatever, should be on a rider for the policy.

No problem everything that comes into my shop goes through leads online so it they know the instant something is either bought or pawned on. The pawn business is very secure if the police do their jobs and check the pawn reports. Its easy for me to nail crooks because I get their fingerprints, Drivers license and signature. Anyone dumb enough to bring stolen property to a pawn shop is basically giving the cops all the info they need for a conviction.

Thanks for all your advice, guys. My friend's situation has been resolved. The seller turned out to be a really solid guy, and he provided a full refund, including shipping both ways and FFL fees. It's not as good as getting to keep the rifle, but at least he didn't suffer a financial loss. My friend thought it was safer to accept a full refund and return it to the seller rather than run the risk of having to surrender the gun to the police and possibly get nothing.

I can't say that we've really learned anything out of the whole fiasco--except that there is a very slight risk of such things happening on any used gun transaction.

Rod

It is good to hear that there are still some solid people out there. I always enjoy an opportunity to learn that