When we picked up the Harpers Ferry & Colt Muskets there was also a fullstock 40 inch barreled .38 cal. rifle that was made by J. Sheetz with barrel made by S. Worley. This rifle was converted from flintlock to caplock. The other rifle was made by S. Beck and is .31 cal. anyone out there know anything these rifles

Fred

Sunvalley,

There are Becks in the Pennsylvania Long Rifle records, all highly regarded as rifle makers of great skill, but no "S. Beck". Many of PAs rifle makers or their progeny moved westward or south as the frontiers did, and it is possible that your rifle was made by a relative at a later period, especially if it was seeing use at the time conversions began to occur to caplock in the early 1850s and 60s. A photo of the rifle would be helpful, as there are certain 'style' preferences for both what we in PA call the Southern schools, and the westward migrations of the artform, before it became swallowed by the percussion/Plains rifle era. Although not a certain criteria by any means...calibers of smaller bore than 40 are one factor in the equation.

I can find no mention of either a J. Sheetz or an S. Worley with regard to your Harpers Ferry and Colt muskets in my library...but I am primarily interested in the PA era flintlocks, and my library reflects that. I also tend to lose interest about 1790 Which is about the time "lock, stock, and barrel" met with 'division of labor'. Arms made for military contract in both periods are a whole different study, and onw which I haven't undertaken.

I did double check on the Beck piece just in the case I may have missed mention of a relative in the material I have.

Sorry.

John Philip Beck worked in Lebanon/Dauphin County until the very early 1800's. No mention of a son/grandson shows up in any of my reference material. Perhaps an inquiry to the Penna. Hysterical, I mean Historical, Society would be in order? We had a rifle by Nicholas Beyer, who was an apprentice of Beck, in our family until a brainless relative sold it.

Sorry to feed an off-topic thread on the Savage forum. If y'all wish to continue via PM's or start a new thread somewhere else, I would be happy to continue. Sorry, I don't have any pics of the Beyer rifle in digital format or I would post them in case there's resemblance to the Beck rifle. A lot of his stuff showed a definite influence of Beck, who was one of the premo gunsmiths in south central Penna. I personally wouldn't mind seeing a pic of the ML's you picked up Sunvalleyguy. I have an abiding interest in anything from Harper's Ferry, having grown up close to there.

And now...this gives me opening to both hijack the thread...and post an OTS on Sunvalley's thread Sorry SV But you seem such a pleasant chap!!

Part of my 'occupation' is flintknapping. Flintknocker? I have an order for a dozen matched hunting points, and as I work at it, I find pieces of chert that demand economical use of good material. One of my 'specialties' is utilizing stuff other guys throw away. The piece pictured was such a piece, given to me by a guy who a bad "break" resulting in what I call a 'turtle fracture'. Not big enough to get two points from...but one for sure, and the rest to precious a material to waste. In many ways...a 'show off' piece in its complexity, for sure...but also always a ton of fun for me to make. By now more than a couple of you know of my love affair with the Pennsylvania Longrifle...and that 'flints' are a fairly important ingredient thereof. That should explain the photo. Twas all one piece...right up until I needed to 'cut' the first one off to gauge both size and proportion of the remaining attached flint and the arrowpoint...so as it would match the rest of the dozen. It's Indiana Hornstone, a bit soft, but I make foursided flints, and 25 Good fires from a side before I can re-edge three sides for another 25 reliable ignitions...and give'em to the poor guys who try to hunt deer with composite flints in their T/Cs. Figure they should experience their rifles actually going off just once:)

You are a skilled man. I enjoy your posts.

I appreciate your comments Like2 Thank you. I have discovered a lot of very talented people on this Collector's forum. It's very nearly the only one I visit anymore. And the other's are certainly more business than the pleasure this one is .

I warned when I first came on here, I would take all the info I could glean from all of you, as fast as I could. Looks like it's going to take a while

Contrary to what 'they' (whoever "they" are) say...you CAN regain some of your youth...just takes a bit o' luck finding the right 'forum'

ed

not a chip off the old block but a CHIPPER OF THE OLD FLINT

And we all know I don't mind an O.T. thread every now and then

Too funny!
Your flints look to be top quality! Where do you get your raw material?

What I got from another site. Sheets was a gunsmith around 1810. His shop made several rifles but most were all flintlocks. There is actually more known about Jesse Worley than there is about Sheets. Worley was one of the better known barrel makers of the time. He passed away in 1838. Worley made barrels only and sold them to whomever would buy them. He learned his trade from the renown Pannabecker family in Pennsylvania. To have a rifle with both these guys names on it tells me that is was most likely to have been manufactured prior to the war of 1812. [img]http://i729.photobucket.com/albums/ww292/bigdaddy44special/009.jpg[/img][img]http://i729.photobucket.com/albums/ww292/bigdaddy44special/014.jpg[/img][img]http://i729.photobucket.com/albums/ww292/bigdaddy44special/015.jpg[/img][img]http://i729.photobucket.com/albums/ww292/bigdaddy44special/018.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i729.photobucket.com/albums/ww292/bigdaddy44special/017.jpg[/img]

excellent Photos, fine looking rifles!!! Late era for sure, and Pannabecker is in the books! More than a couple of them!! Not many examples of rifles to look at...but comparatively lighter lined, andmore 'expressive' trigger guards similar to the ones in your photos are found on Pannabecker guns. Certain of the Pannabecker rifles show a LOT more metal art than wood art, but tend to be subtlely sized accents that allow usually exceptional graind wood to speak a bit 'louder'. I see that influence here as well, which only stands to reason. If you learn your trade from one who excells at metal art...you'll probably 'lean' a bit that way yerself. Maybe even share a similar respect for wood lights?? I'd love to read the info you found on Sheets(z)?, you have my PM address I still haven't found any mention of him?

At any rate, I'd say you have a couple fine old rifles...even with the conversions

Joe, I get my material mostly from friends who think a box of rox makes a great gift. I could not agree more

I do purchase some, one in particular, a sub-obsidian volcanic material called Dacite, from Glass Buttes Oregon. I like this one because it is so similar in workability and general appearance to our local Helderberg chert, which is tabular in formation, and 'sandwiched' in the layers of limestone here. It is unfortunately to large extent now unuseable because of TNT blasting for limestone extraction. The shock waves travel for miles in the chert layer, leaving it pretty much as little cubes like broken tempered safety glass.

Course, every once in a while I'll make a radioactive point from an old TV screen

Seriously...there's something 'knappable' in nearly every corner of the globe...and I'm sure I won't live long enough to try them all...but in the meantime..I'm workin' at it:)

Bottoms of Niagara Red Wine bottles ?

Flintnocker
This is my rock lock signed Jeff Tebay 03 I was never able to find out much on him. I finally had a chance to hunt with it last fall had a fine Cass county Mi 8 point at 80 yards but my confidence level is within 50 so I was spectator.
Another flinter I have is marked JS NS machine shop inc N Philadelphia Ohio, somewhere I have a note on this but I remember NS = Nylon Sickafoose.
Also stamped P.T. 120 GR. 3F S.B. wondering what the pt and sb stand for. This rifle will be converted to percussion and will come along to Kansas this fall.

CTW,

Good morning! Fine looking piece! Unfortunately I can't tell you much at all on your nice rifle. Almost all of my literature is PA based, with only minor footnoting of where a certain few families or undertudies may have taken their trades as they left PA.

I know people who may be much better studied than I am re: your questions. I am curious as all get out though, about the markings relating to 'machine shop'. I do know, that just like here in PA, the sport of shooting smoke makers existed in small pockets with nut case fanatics (like Savage collectors all over the country. And that there has always been and always will be a keen market for a fine longrifle. There was still a man crafting lock, stock, and barrel here in a quaint little village about 20 miles from home when I was adolescent. (I have the exquisitely pleasant memory of watching him rifle a barrel with a wooden pull mill, and shimming his cutting edges after each pull with little pieces of oat straw!!!) That was long before the black powder craze began in earnest in the late 70s early 80s over most of the country...and world!!

With the markings on your rifle, the likes of which I've not seen on any of the period guns from the PA Golden Era, I can only hazard a guess your piece was made by an individual similar to old Mr. Gansel of my youth. A die-hard devotee, who probably did die, thinking he was the last of his kind.

Additonally, I can only guess, but perhaps your barrel inscription would 'read' this way?

"Proof test, 120 gr. fffg Soft ball" ?? or 'single bump'? I know the rifle I'm shooting now was 'tested' by it's maker, and he found it shot best with 80 grains of 2F with a 495 ball and .013 tick patch...but only because he told me so.

(I subsequently discovered I can do much better with 80 grains of 3F behind a 490 ball, and a .017 soft linen patch.)

Very handsome piece you've got there, in any case!!

And any more, any more..than 60 paces is let'em walk distance for me. My rifle is certainly capable of more...my eyes aren't

ed

Chris, I have an old shooting buddy who grew up, and lives, in New Philadelphia, Ohio, and who lives and breathes muzzle loaders. I'll ask him if he knows anything about the maker of your rifle.

Another route to take would be to take a trip to Friendship, Indiana, when the NMLRA is having their national matches. It's not all that far for you, I'm guessing, and the amount of knowledge gathered there is mind boggling.

Truth be known, I've killed about as many deer with ML's in my life as I have with centerfires. All well within the same 60 yd. self imposed limit. Tales of shooting them with original Civil War .58 rifled muskets, Brown Bess's, .40, .45, and .50 cap locks, and Penna. Long Rifles are best left to another time and place- especially if single malt scotch is involved! (I will say there was this 190 pound 13 point non-typical bruiser that fell to one shot in the neck with a .45 round ball. ) If the fish and game departments ruled that muzzle loaders only are allowed for deer hunting, I wouldn't be all that disappointed. (With maybe a few days thrown in when one could use a pre-1960 Savage lever gun or pre-war Mauser sporter! )

Not to start a flap, but the current trend in modern 'blackpowder' guns is not my cup of tea. Bugs me some that scopes, sabots, & powder pellets etc. mostly qualify for special season use. Different strokes I guess. I'm with you Gary.

Some great wood on those oldies in the pics.

Mr. Crow Magnum, if modern muzzle loaders, which I do not like, make you wonder about primitive weapons season, you would flip for what is legal as a primitive weapon here in MS.

Kansas? What's the story?

I would love any info a black powder crank from the area would know for sure. When I purchased the rifle and looked for info the zip is stamped (so not really vintage) at that point I called every gunshop in the area hoping for a gleam of info, only one of them was willing to share he new the shop and the names Sickafoose sticks out but the other name eludes me now the other I remember is "down by the river" shop location. I think it was put together 1981 with all browned iron parts, also the lock is custom and has no half cock rather a slide safety. Interesting to me anyway. Rick I have a Kansas whitetail tag for the BP season this year late September. Any guesses on the wood? The thoughts here are maple but I'm not sure??

Hi. This is Jeff Tebay, the builder of the gun you posted about. please let me know if you have any questions. Also, it would be nice to know who you purchased it from to see where all it's been. Thank you.

Jeff, Thanks for posting I know very little about the rifle other than she is a beauty. Are there any more in the works?
Thanks Chris