The Marlin Savage connection

As some of you know, among several interests, I am an avid Marlin collector - almost exclusively vintage lever guns but for some odd reason I bought an engraved pump shotgun recently

. Anyway, I have an appreciation for the Savage-Marlin connection. In Bill Brophy's book titled, "Marlin Firearms" he shows (p.627) a photo of a, "Model 1895 Savage rifle manuactured by The Marlin Fire Arms Company." On that same page he shows a skech of a Savage M1895 receiver and also two photos of a M1895 barrel. One of the barrel shows the barrel markings (the same as illustrated in Murray's book) and then a photo showing he JM proofmark).In his text under the topic, "Savage Rifle" he writes:

"The June 1895 catalog of the Savage Repeating Arms Company, Utica, N.Y., states inside the flyleaf that the guns illustrated in the catalog were manufactured for Savage by The Marlin Fire Arms Company."

"Correspondence during 1968 between E.M. Savage, son of Savage Arms Company founder Arthur W. Savage, and Thomas R. Robinson, Jr., Marlin's director of research and development, indicates that possibly the prototype of the Savage Model 1895 rifle was made by Colt, but that the tooling and gauges to make the rifle was produced by Marlin. The first 5,000 rifles were also manufactured by Marlin and have the JM proofmark on either the bottom area of the barrel or on the upper surface of the barrel, just forward of the receiver."
"The 1896 sketch shown here is the only Marlin item remaining of Marlin's interesting contribution to the success of a competitor in the firearms industry. The Savage lever action rifle was still in production in 1987."
"During the 1944-1945 period, Marlin manufactured some sporting rifle barrels for Savage. This helped Savage get back into the sporting rifle business after some years of dedicated war work."
"It should also be noted here that in 1948 E.M. Savage, as head of Savage Laboratories (gunsmiths), La Mesa, Calif., offered Marlin a razor blade dispensing magazine. Similar to the little 10-blade cardboard box, it had a metal spring insert that, when pushed or pulled, would dispense one blade from the package. The device was never adopted by Marlin."

The most interesting part of that to me is that Marlin made barrels for savage after WWII. I did not know that. I wonder if they are somehow marked...

Aw crap, now I'm gonna have to pull the forearm on my EG and check for the Marlin mark!

A few years back somebody posted a letter from Arthur to somebody in which Arthur stated that they had paid Colt something like $10,000 to produce a rifle. Guessing this is the connection. I'll see if I can't find that old post because I'm sure my memory is off on details.

Old thread on the early 1892/1895 models.

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/4671427/Who_built_the_1892_rifles

Wished I'd of bought the one I was offered from Roe Clark. I did get to fondle it.

1899 article in Recreation magazine:

Quote

THE SAVAGE IS GETTING TO THE FRONT.

The growth of the Savage Arms Co's business has been something phenomenal. They started in 1896. In that year they had another factory make 5,000 rifles for them. These sold rather slowly, of course, but nearly every man who got one of them was pleased with it. Good hunters and good shots who took them into the woods or mountains got game with them. Many made long and difficult shots and found, on examining the game they had killed, that the projectile had done its work in a peculiarly effective way. It was found that the charge gave high velocity, low trajectory, erreat penetration and great shocking and tearing force. All these are important requisites in a hunting rifle. While these first 5,000 rifles were being disposed of the Savage Arms Co. was reorganized.

A large building was purchased in Utica and an extensive plant of the best machinery that mode . skill can produce was installed. The company now employs about 140 men. The works are running at their full capacity, yet the company is 60 to 90 days behind its orders. The business is growing rapidly and a new line of machinery is being installed that will double the present capacity of the works and that will admit of the employment of a large number of new men. The most skillful mechanics that can be found are being employed in all departments, and the best steel that the world produces is being used in barrels and in the different parts.

The Savage rifle is rapidly making a record for itself of which the inventor may be justly proud. The company is issuing a catalogue that is full of valuable information for hunters and for target shooters. It should be in the hands of all such and will be sent free to all who ask for it, mentioning Recreation,

Article on introduction of Savage rifles in 1895, giving full credit to Marlin for making them.

Article in Recreation

you guys sure dig up a lot of good info.
norm

They do don't they Norm! Let us know what you find under that EG forearm. Mine are early 50s, I doubt they would have Marlin barrels.

Bert

Jed, was that an 1892 or 1893...or both?

I know we're talking Marlin and not Colt, but this goes back 4 years so we'll just refresh the newcomers (okay, my memory needed refreshing also).

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/1400658/1

Originally Posted by boltman

I have a life in many ways beyond being a Savage and lever gun collector, but come on guys, this stuff is just plain fascinating isn't it?

So, Savage pays Colt $5000 to build a rifle and as gd'40 demonstates above, that is a serious amount of cash. Also consider the info. provided by gd'40 about Ford Motor company - that $100,000 started the entire company with with 100+ employees.

To take this a step further now, Arthur Savage writes on March 25th, 1904, explaining to Mr. Perris how expensive it is to build just one rifle and using their own example of paying $5000 to Colt for "one Savage rifle made by hand, with a plain piece of walnut, and no engraving." Arthur Savage adds: "We have got in our racks ten or twelve guns that have cost all the way from $3,000. to $5,000. each, made by hand throughout."

So ten or twelve hand made rifles!? Costing that much! Ten or twelve rifles at the price he quotes is about $50,000 and to use gd's data this would be the equivalent of well over one million dollars in the late 1880's. We are talking about half as much money as was needed to start all of Ford motor company with 100+ employees - just to build 10 to 12 rifles.

And, what were these 10 to 12 rifles? We know one was a proto-type built by Colt, but the others? Built by who and prototypes of what? I don't think he is talking about engraved rifles as he characterizes these as rifles that were built by hand. And of course, where are these rifles now!!? I suppose the two patent rifles featured in Murray's book are among these, but that still leave quite a number of mystery rifles out there. Given what the Savage company paid for them, you wouldn't think they would have been allowed to walk out the door as a novelty for someone. So, who else has information out there?

This may go back to Marlin also. I'm sure Savage had to pay Marlin to produce the first 1895 prototypes (rifle, carbine, octagon/half octagon/round?, etc), and those may very well be the $3,000 to $5,000 rifles listed above.

Rick,
the one w/the scalloped reciever.

should add it had factory replacement wood on it. It was w/out wood. Then Roe took it to the SAC shop and had the fellas put a stock and forend on it.

I think that was the 1893.

and the Martini style lever.

asking was 3,000.

Originally Posted by Jed_1899

asking was 3,000.

Kinda sounds like a bargain now...

wonder what happened to the original stocks.

Its quite apparent at some point in the 70s or 80s Savage allowed Roe and another gentleman (as I recall the name was something like Mitsy Beeland??) to "clean up" all the old gun stock. There is a huge number of NOS Fox barrel and parts and completed gun built during this period that are attributed to these two gentleman. This is about the same time that a large surplus of NOS 99 parts were sold as well right?

DON'T know when it was but there was an auction sometime when a hugh amount of surplus parts were auctioned off.Not sure if it was just 99s or a lot of other stuff as well ,i'll see if i can find out dates .Some of you computer gurus might be able to fine it on internet

Originally Posted by lovemy99

The most interesting part of that to me is that Marlin made barrels for savage after WWII. I did not know that. I wonder if they are somehow marked...

I wonder if we have any idea what barrels were made? Could be centerfire rifle, rimfire rifle, shotgun...?

yeah, Savage was making the Fox model B and the 99EG... what else was Savage making post war? Were they making any of the rimfires?

Yes, the Model 29. But we only know that because it was serial numbered. Most of the rimfires were not so it is hard to tell when they were made. Could have been for the Steven/Springfield rimfire lines, also. I think there was higher production of these than the Savage after the war. Sears, Wards, etc. needed to stock shelves.

Would Marlin have marked them? What was the military stamp that Marlin used during the war? Did marlin make barrels for other contractors during the war? Might be some connection between what they produced during the war and what they could make on the same machines?

I would think that if Marlin made barrels for Savage it would have been a large enough quanitiy of the same thing to be worth their time.

I have some corespondence from Roe with a picture of the rifle and some hand writing from Roe stating this is the same as his rifle. I am on the road right now but will post something when I get home.

Blair

We'll leave the light on.