And did it ever come factory drilled and tapped? powdr

I believe 1940 or 41. Never factory drilled and tapped!

1941, they didn't bring it with them to Chicopee.

Of course there will be a couple guys here that have a lunch box special and say "oh ya they did", but they didn't.

No, never factory D&T'd.

Yes, there were some factory d&t on the side for Weaver mounts in the late 30's.

However.. there's no way to prove which ones were done at the factory and which ones were done after they left the factory.

Last made in 1945 ........that I am aware of.

Alright, time to argue.

Rory, you sure that's a late 30's ad? That deer is the same one that Savage used on an early 1940's catalog.

If Savage shut down sporting arms production during WW2 how did they build an EG in 303 during 1945, is that gun lettered? Hence the reason I stated some will have a lunchbox special. I haven't really been following dates lately, how many of you guys here have guns lettered in 1943-1945?

No letter on this rifle, but that doesn't diminish it any. There were a lot of rifles made 41' to 45' and some were in un-catalogued variations (example the 99R/T). Savage made rifles as long as it didn't interfere with their government contracts. And when the war did end, there was such a demand that if they had a barrel in bin from 39' you can bet it got screwed into a receiver and built to meet that demand whether it was a .303, a .300 or a .250 or a .30-30. As the saying goes any 99 is better than NO 99.

Late 30's 303 Speigel's had the D&T holes.

Agreed...... for the highly unpopular Belding and Mull Mount.

I don't know about unpopular but it sure is unobtainable!!

See, I'm out of this one.

The op wanted to know a simple question and then we gotta start bringing up Speigels and RT's. RT's were merely made from parts left in the bin but some will call them "uncatalogued" instead of what they really are. And the Speigels? Ya, alright Powdr, my bad, there were 300 rifles factory D&T'd, did you happen to trip over one of those or are you just asking because you ran across a rat that had been drilled for scope, I'm guessing the rat as usually 99.9% of the time it what it turns out to be but some dudes just wanna argue for the sake of arguing cause they're getting bored around here and cabin fever is setting in. No worries guys, spring is right around the corner and we can all get out to the ranges again soon, haha.

And just to add some fuel to the fire:

The RT is NOT an "uncataloged model" it's not even a model at all, it's a name we made up here at the fire so everyone would know what lunch box special we are talking about.

This site has so much to do with what we know about Savage 99's that I'd almost bet that someday someone will write a book and actually put that parts use up in it as a model for cripes sake.

OK, Joe. It's cold here, and there's nothing good on TV, so I'll take the bait. Which parts bin did the 99RT forearm come from?

Rod

Making popcorn now.

Molson is plenty cold.

The buttstock came out of the R bin and the forearm came out of the T bin, haha.

I'd almost bet back in 1940 there were a bunch of employee's sitting around on their coffee break and one of them spit his coffee back into his cup cause he was laughing so hard and said "hey, did you guys see what I did with that left over batch of T forearms"?

Joe, I have that ad as being from 1937. I have other ads from '37'ish also with factory d&t.

Too many R/T's to qualify as lunchbox or parts guns in my mind. Still waiting for somebody to run across a hardware catalog or something showing them, like we found with the Spiegels.

Last CATALOGUED 99 in 303 was 1941. A few show up later.

And my hunter EG lettered as shipped mid-1945, and it's 12,000 higher than 1941 rifles. So I think it's for sure there was some minor assembly going on during the war years, more as the war went on.

Does that EG have a Chicopee or a Utica barrel address?

They should have been packing up the plant for the move during that time, something sketchy with that letter but who really knows what went on then. We just guess at a lot of things around here trying to make sense of history long forgotten.

Can't ever see the "R/T" showing up on paper. What do you mean, "to many" how many do we have numbers on? 5 or 10? Hardly enough to be calling them a model, maybe if they were up over 10000 I could see it.

If you are asking about my EG. It has a Utica address.

If there have only been 5 or 10 documented R/Ts I have been darn lucky to own 3 of em.

I think we have documentation that the 40's RT forearms were not the same specs as the T's. I have suspected it, but IIRC Rod took the time and initiative to measure them and the results were conclusive.

Wanna weigh in on this one Rod?

I disagree that the RT is not an uncataloged model. Too many of them and too different from the R's or T's . If you have ever held one in your hands, the difference is immediately apparent.

By the way I know where there is a 30-30 RT for sale in Michigan right now.

Serial # 432xxx.

Mine is 431xxx

I suspect there are probably many more out there that we don't even know about.

I have some pretty rough data collected on the RTs and have 28 records and I am sure that I don't have even close to what I have seen or what are even owned by the members here. Lowest 422xxx, highest 437xxx (had a higher one but the forearm was serialed to a lower number within these two points).

Agreed, the forearms were measured and don't match up with the R or the T.

Wasn't the model R cataloged in 1946?

I have also seen Chicopee barrels that were stamped 303 that I am confident were factory built barrels. They offered rebarrels in 303 for many years when in Chicopee Falls. One might recall a gun that came up many times with engraving that looked nearly identical to the "Fox model B" that had a 303 barrel. It was basically an EG that was factory drilled and tapped. I have some pictures if anyone really wants to see it.

That ad shows the 3 point checkering, meaning that particular gun was definitely made in the mid-30s.

JTC letter that have on 424,5xx states that Savage "PRACTICALLY" devoted the entire plant to WW II contracts. It goes on to say "the limited sporting arms production was done as conveniently and as simply as possible."

It later states that this gun shipped against shipping order #80295 which occurred "sometime in late 1944" and does call out the model and caliber; a 300EG.

Has no one ever lettered an RT is this serial range? JTC indicates that the factory records showed the model.

Here's my earlier post measuring the T and RT forends. Doesn't seems likely that these came out of the same parts bin.

I have an un-used 24" barrel (99EG style) in .303 with the Chicopee address on it.

What model!!!!!!!!

We made the name up!!

All this existing info and paperwork to back up a model that we made a name for.

Am I the only one that gets this?

I quit, gonna go mix some parts up on some of my guns and sell them for twice what they're worth as uncatalogued models. Hmmmm, maybe I'll make a REG or a GT, no no, an RST.

Joe--

My original question to you was "Which parts bin did the 99RT forend come from?" It was NOT, as you suggest, simply pulled from a pile of T parts; it is different from an R forend or a T forend, and is unique to the RT.




I don't think we made this gun up. The guys here noticed these rifles, gave them a name for the sake of discussion, and have now gathered enough good info on them to make a pretty convincing case to recognize them as a legitimate variation.

Rod

Yep, alright.

Guys thanks for the exhilarating discussion. I am looking for a .303 but a later model. I really don't want to drill and tap a virgin specimen if at all possible. The RT SOUNDS INTERESTING even if it is a figment of imagination. Anyway I'll just keep looking on the net and see what shows up. Not siding w/anybody here...just trying to be open. powdr

I think Drew was inferring that a factory letter would show what model it actually was, rather than lettering as an RT.

But to the best of my knowledge, there are no records for the 40's. On my 1945 rifle, all he was able to find was a shipping invoice listing the serial number. He knew it was a 99EG in 300 because I told him so.

There was a large enough run of these unique guns that we need to call them something. They weren't T's, they weren't Rs and they weren't EGs

Somebody came up with the hybrid "RT" and it stuck. You can call them a balony sandwich, the name isn't important. I think the consensus is there were enough of them made the sample was uniform enough and they were different enough that we had to call them something so that we knew what we were referring to in conversations amongst ourselves.

I don't think it as the discovery of some heretofore unknown species.

Just another interesting part of the history of the 99

Just my take on the thing.

Yet, you've done some measuring and comparing and the forearms are not T forearms, so why would anyone call it an "RT"?

I think what happened is that when they started making the R's and they wanted the new look that this was it and they made very few of them before they slimmed the forearms back down to what the post war R's look like normally. So why not just call them a model R? Bet if they had records that that's what it would letter as.

Can't Give you an ansewer Joe.
But i bought a rifle from a member here years back, with a Hang Tag and had to a couple of the fest
And the Hang Tag actually has a E-G-T or E-R-T don't remember
on it. But it was made in the Early 40's.

As far as Lengths On Wood, All Stocks Were Hand Made?, Hand Fitted etc
So Lengths are going to vary some.

True. It's possible that the very first post war Rs had 22 inch barrels and this fatter flatter forearm. A possibility I had not considered.

For whatever reason they decided they didn't like the configuration and they went to 24" barrels and the what we know as the standard post war R forearm. An interesting theory. Unfortunately the explanation is lost to history and we are left only to speculate.

Still it's hard for me to think of them as Rs cause they really aren't the same gun. I like "RT" better. Just me

I don't have a dog in this fight (pun intended), but, mad dog's variation theory may be a good theory. Seems there were other rifles called 1st variation, 2nd variation. A variation change would likely be more subtle than a model change. Cross check trigger vs. grooved trigger.
JTC ever weigh in on this?

Steve, that tag was stamped "T", then over stamped "EG" and stamped a second time "EG". The final inspector hadn't got the memo on what he was looking at either.

Powdr you sure started a [bleep] storm this time. Hope you are satisfied with yourself.......

Argument against a R is the barrel lengths match up with a T more than a 30's R and the slants on the forearm are obviously like a T.

Arguments against a T is that the checkering matches with the postwar R, and the forearm isn't that far off. We've also seen a couple of postwar ads from 46/47 that list the EG and R as the only offerings, though they show a 30's R in the picture.

This has been great entertainment for me. Not sure I learned anything though. LMAO

"SAVAGE NEVER SAY NEVER" !!!! thats why collecting these rifles is fun ,entertaining !!!

Mad Dog
The photo you see was first used on the 1922 Savage-Stevens
calendar as far as I know I am looking at mine now.Ther are several listings for the T7 mount by Savage!!!

Doug, what picture? The 1922 with the mule deer on top? PS... didn't Winchester use the upper part on one of their later calendars, late 40's?

I'm pretty sure the T-7 mount was not made in 1922. Weaver didn't have a scope for it at that time.

There is only around 10,000 rifles in the range of the first S-7 mount till Savage stopped logging serial numbers. I don't know of anyone lettering a D&T'ed rifle in that range. Another item for the bucket list.

If demand for Savage rifles was like most everything else post WWII, I can see the desire for the factory to simplify production by making both EG and R barrels the same length.

Didn't mean to start anything. Sure is nice though seeing grown men state their opinion w/no name calling or cursing. That's why I like this forum. I can't believe there were so many changes and modifications over the years. powdr

I agree with you and thus why I asked if it was confirmed that Savage cataloged the R in 1946, which Rory confirmed and which JTC has stated in several letters to me.

I think we should call it the Savage Model 99MD just for you.

To add to the idea that even Savage didn't know what it was, I have one at 430,xxx in my records that had EG stamped into the front of the receiver. I know that I they stamped the front of the receivers with EG as late as 445,xxx as I owned one.

Adding to the idea that this was a unique model, a handful of the others after 430xxx were stamped with a 5 on the front of the receiver. As we know, pre-war Rs were all stamped with an 8.

Correct. My letter is from 2008 and I have no idea what I sent him in terms of information but the letter states

"What I did find specific to your rifle is that it was shipped against factory shipping order #80295 and that it is a Model 99-EG, built in .300 Savage Caliber. Using information from the company's record of shipments, this occurred sometime in late 1944."

In another letter from him for a 1951 production rifle that did not have any additional information in the factory logs other than when it shipped, he stated "From the information that you provided, this is a model 99-EG..."

I have seen (and have) numerous letters in which JTC always refers to "the information that you provided" and I always assumed he was very careful to do this to not mislead someone later if he was provided bad info.

In my records of the RTs, I have one with a 20" barrel in 30-30 and one even earlier than that one in 300 with a 24" barrel. Both of these were listings from GB so I can not confirm either way but its interesting that there are several in 300 with 22" barrels after the 24" one. I also have one other 24" 300 near the highest in the records.

Old post on the 30-30 with 20" barrel here:

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/2881160/2

Yes as I recall we have seen some variability in barrel lengths.

Most however had 22" barrels IIRC.

The point I was trying to make is that post war R's as we know them, all had 24" barrels and it was not just a different forearm that makes this (R) a different creature than the "RT". It's not a just post war R with a pre war T stock screwed on it. There is more to it than that.

Wether you call it an early R or an RT or a baloney sandwich...it's clearly not the same gun (configuration) as the post war R.

This is especially clear, given the fact that a lot of the RT rifles are chambered in 30-30, a caliber that almost no pre-war R's and no post-war R's were made in.

Rod

So, who's on first?

My head is spinning!

The speigels were one thing because we can verify their originality.

The problem with these weird looking R's is that we can't prove they were a model or just a parts use up. If it was a parts use up where the heck did those forearms come from???? Nope, I think Savage started something and then just modified the forearm to the post war R we see now and the other R's were just a start run and someone didn't like them.

That's a valid guess and one I wouldn't be surprised at... but why would there be a 3 year gap between the RT's and postwar R's then?

It's just one of those things we have to wait and watch for any documentation to explain it. We couldn't explain the Speigels until the catalog page was found. Wouldn't be surprised to have somebody find a catalog page for these.

Agreed Joe... probably went to the 24" barrel and limited chambering for cost savings and commonality with the EG when they moved plants.

The one in the add Caloun put up was done by
Louis Agassiz Fuertes the Winchester was done by
Phillip Godwin and they are not alike as to the t7 all I ment was that their are several adds showing and stateing the Savage
would drill and tap a 99 for that mount a time frame was not
offered by me!!!

LATE to the game here but Jimmy and I disagree I have a 30-30 from 43-44 cant remember ser no right now but SHE's A pretty nice mater stake ,so there MMMMmmmadog

norm

Never mind posting pics of the gun Norm, post a pic of the letter, then I'll believe what I read.

Doug, I understand what you posted, now. Thanks.

Joe
I understand a letter means alot to verify, How ever i have several never lettered from 415,000 to 446,000 So From 1941 to 1945-56 according to Serial Number Gathered over the years. with 22Inch and 24inch B.L. In Non Checked and Checked E.G.'s

Just sayin:

how can we say that these guns are from such and such a year when there are no records showing when these guns were accepted?

All there is is a shipping date, so more or less gathering serial numbers is pointless on these guns because everyone here would just be guessing on an acceptance date.

Yep, I've said before that all we have for 1938'ish and onwards through the war years is shipping dates.

Barring any chance of getting acceptance dates, we kind of have to go with our best guess.

My personal guess is that they were shipping 99's during the war years pretty much as fast as they were accepted from the factory, since they could make so very few of them in between doing all the gov't contract work.

Whole lotta guessing around here lately.

I guess the next new guy that shows up asking questions I'll just make some stuff up and it'll all be good.

It's not like that hasn't been done by some in the past.

I have a 99 that sounds like it must be what you are all calling a "parts gun". It was made for me by Roland Lussier, who at the time was a (or the) manager of production at Savage Arms in aprox 1986. I had a couple of guns worked on by them and when Roland heard that I was robbed he told me to mail him some good wood from Fejen Reinhardt (sp?) and he would build me a new gun. Roland left Savage just prior to the gun being shipped to me, and I damn near did not get it back. He was replaced by a woman who complained that they were not even allowed to sell a gun to a consumer, just to dealers etc. I got the gun in the end for about $185 plus the cost of the wood I sent to them. So my question is, is my gun more or less valuable (on the market,not to me) than a gun made from a production line at Savage? At the time, the 99 was no longer made so they made my gun from parts that were laying around. Similarly, they fixed an old .303 for me at the same general time, putting a new barrel on it. Will have to read the address on that barrel given the comments above. Your comments are appreciated. Bob

With documentation that it did come from Savage, I'm sure it would sell for more than a similar factory line rifle.

Would love to see a picture if you can do it.

I will take a photo when I get home. The cartridge rotor is silver color, not brass. I will post the number also. It is a beautiful gun.