I am going to order a new walnut stock for my 99. I am planning on staining it to a "classic" red/brown and then a satin polyurethane finish.
This gun is going hunting with me and I want a tough finish that can take some punishment so that's why the poly finish. I also have lots of experience with the stain and poly way of finishing wood. Any reason I should consider an oil rub finish?
Any advice on a stain color that would look good?
Thanks.

New stock...finish to what works best for you.

I like the oil because I can steam out any dents, scratches and rub on more oil. I have an old '94 Brazilian Mauser in 250Ackley that I'm fixing to do that to that is 15 years old. Just steam out those dings and re-apply the oil. Plus oil is prettier. powdr

Nope. Oil finish leaks. Poly don't.

I have several of my 99's refinished by Dennis Pritchard, who resides in Western VA. Dennis is a master, especially with the 99. He uses a hand rubbed oil finish. I have no idea what this is but I do know that he rubs oil of some sort into these stocks, over and over. 50 times? Not sure but this may be possible from the stories he tells me. The end result is a stock so beautiful it is amazing. I shoot a Savage 1895, 75th anniversary model and was never happy with the stock. Like many of the later Savage 99's they were less refined, thicker, etc. The schnabel forend was "clunky", not delicate like the older models. I sent it to Dennis and now it is one amazing gun. Will try to open an account on photo bucket today and post a few pics. Hard core "traditionalists" on this site may object to this sort of "upgrade" but in my mind, Dennis takes a Savage 99 stock and puts it into a condition that Arthur Savage would have wanted his guns to look like when they left the factory.

Skidrow I don't where you got the idea that oil leaks...but when done properly it is by far the best and most long lasting versatile finish. Several of my guns bear this out over many years of service and it is by far the most beautiful. powdr

Both of you, oil penetrates the wood but it doesn't seal it. Poly does. For that matter the old Marine Spar Varnish does too. Believe what you want. Been there and done that. Got tired of warped stocks from hunting in the Washington rain.

Holy mackerel, Is there still somebody out there who thinks oil is a better sealant than varnish?! Ixnay!! An oil finish may be beautiful but it sucks as an effective water barrier. For a gun that is going to be used regularly in the woods, a good barrier finish can not be beat by oil. If venturing out with oil finished Old Betsy, at least besure to wax the heck out of it with a good paste wax. Then at least you'll have some protection if you get caught in a rain storm.

I have slowly come to realize that over the last generation or two, poly has become synonymous with varnish. 'Tain't so, Joe. Probably due to the fact that poly is all one sees on the shelves in the big box stores. Poly isn't bad, but there are better varnishes for gun stocks, such as good old spar varnish. Poly is harder and as such won't move with the wood as it goes through seasonal changes as well as spar varnish which is softer in nature (and it will move). Eventual crazing/checking may be the result if poly is used. Both can be rubbed out to mimic an 'oil' finish.

Savage, and most other gun makers, went to simple oil finishes after initially using varnish because it's cheaper, period. Not because it's better. The gov't used oil finishes on their combat rifle stocks for generations you say? Sure, because again it's cheap and quick- and what does the gov't care if they have to replace stocks on army rifles as they go through service? Buy a high end gun with a beautiful 'oil' finish, and you can bet your Bippy that it isn't straight oil but rather some form of wiping varnish that was finessed to look like an oil finish.

TruOil for example is actually a wiping varnish, but a cheap diluted one. One can do much better by mixing one's own at home.

As for the old rhubarb re: oil finishes being easier to repair? Not at all if you stop and think about it. Scratched/dented stocks require as much labor to to repair no matter the finish. Scratch through an oil finish and you better sand away all traces of the scratch or a dark line will result from simply smearing oil on it. That doesn't allow for having to feather the sanded injured area into the surrounding wood or a noticeable divot will be seen. Either way, there's a lot of work involved in stock repairs no matter the finish (unless Bubba is one's middle name).

Gnoahhh, evidently Richard Pritchard does and sounds like he makes his living at it. I live in Texas and to be honest just don't worry about rain. I have guns that are made for those kind of days. I use a sealer and oil finish that comes from a man that has made an enormous amount of money through his life using said sealer and finish. I know how to seal, finish, and repair a stock. I new to Savages and their intricacies but not to guns. Been doing this junk for 40 odd years. I might even know something that the guys here on the board don't know. powdr

Powdr, I'm glad you live in Texas where you don't have to worry about rain, really I am, and your 40 years of experience with guns is admirable, even to those of us who have 50 or 60 years of such experience. But few people in the whole country know more about wood finishing and water than our friend Gnoahhh. In addition to many years as a certified gun-crank, he spent a good chunk of his life building and finishing woodwork on boats (which, as you may know, float on water). Take the time to look at some old discussion threads on subjects relating to wood finishes, adhesives, and such matters, and you'll quickly see that you're arguing with a genuine expert.

No Phil, I've found a way to finish stocks that's beautiful and long lasting. I could tell from the start that Gnoahhh was a knowledgeable person concerning wood but I just don't have the time to search for all the different stuff he uses or has experience with. Some of his posts sound more like a science experiment. He knows his stuff and I wish I knew what he knows but at my age it's just too difficult to apply things I know nothing about on a trial basis. powdr

Bear with me as this is my first attempt at using photo bucket on this site. Here is my 75th anniversary, after I had the stock "higraded" and improved over what the factory provided, by Dennis Pritchard. Surely some of the hard-core purists here will not like this but I think it turned out nicely. This is an example of a hand rubbed finish. Not sure how many coats but I think it is something like 50, and takes months.

Here is one of my 250's with a stock that he put a hand rubbed oil finish on.


He also re-shapes the wood to be a bit more refined.
The 99 shown in one of these pics with the cheek-piece on it was actually done by Savage in the factory in about 1985 or 86. My uncle was a lefty and he wanted this. I was surprised to see the forend not fit quite smoothly at the bottom area, in regard to matching up with the receiver. Possibly I got them on a bad day.

Clearly I don't know how to do this. My pics are in photobucket but I don't know how to get them here. Some of my 99's

Looks like I finally did it but I am not sure how. Hope you like them.

Nice collection of 99's!

Ah, so Gnoahhh knows his stuff but I don't given we both said the same thing? His was a longer more involved answer but given that.... Take one of your oil finished rifle stocks and come up here to hunt. I'll bet you a dollar to a dog turd it will swell and warp within 48 hours. Better yet, just lay it down in the shower for a few hours with the shower giving it a light sprinkle. Try it and get back to me. If you've never hunted in the rain you don't know squat about water resistant stock finishes.

Skidrow I don't know what makes you so mean and controversial but I'm not going to get in a pissing match w/you. You've attacked and treated me like [bleep] ever since the first time I posted. I said I don't like poly and I don't. I said I couldn't and wouldn't use Gnoahhh's method/s and I won't. Find someone else to start a fight with...I'm not your man. Really I just wish you wouldn't comment on any of my posts. It's just not worth the head ache dealing w/you. powdr

Permit me to borrow the tag line of a late friend on another forum: "You can lead a man to reason, but you cannot make him think."

I'll be sealing this one up to hunt in the rain soon. Is there a sanding finish I should be using to fill the pores? I have the checkering tools to clean out the checkering, but am assuming I'll want to tape it off or just carefully rub the finish up to the lines?? Then seal the checkering last?

The checkering is always my big question in refinishing stocks also. I usually pull out the finish with paint remover and a toothbrush, then gently apply finish over just the checkered areas with a very supple brush. When dry, I tape them off, and am a little more aggressive with the rest of the stock. Some of the rifles I have refinished have been previously refinished and the checkering has already been buggered. Not much a person can do with that.

I'll describe my method, for what it's worth. I don't mask off the checkering. Since it's going to be re-cut anyway I just sand right up to it and if I go too far, so what? Re-cut the checkering when the finishing is done, and seal the checkering with a mix of the varnish you use and some oil to thin it, work in with a toothbrush, blot away with lint-free cloth. Or, just use whatever oil you use on the stock and blot it dry.

There are those who advocate filling the pores with sanding slurry achieved through wet sanding with the finishing oil. While that works, it's not the best- is not prone to staying put and is prone to shrinkage over time. Even if one is hell-bent on using an oil finish, the best way to fill pores is with varnish or epoxy. Slather it on, sand it off down to the wood surface, repeat until all the pores are filled evenly. Proceed with whatever finish you're using. Since I would use a barrier finish for the stock, I just start right in with it. The sanding between coats will cause the pores to slowly fill more with each successive coat. Keep going for a couple more coats after the pores are level full, then rub it out to give it a soft sheen not unlike an "oil" finish.

That was a lesson I learned the hard way many lifetimes ago. I filled the pores on a Winchester 94 stock with some kind of "pore filler" off the shelf of the hardware store, then finished with oil. I got caught in a monsoon and sat there watching the rain slough the finish right out of the pores. Another time I used the "sanding-in" method of pore filling. A year later I was re-doing the stock because the stuff shrank into the pores making it look like I hadn't done a thing. The crazy thing was I was convinced I did something wrong, not that the method was suspect, so I repeatedly used that method a couple more times. (What's the definition of insanity?- Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.) That's when I knuckled down and set out to learn the right way to do it.

Like most things in life, the quality of the end product is a reflection on you, and how determined you are to do it right- no matter how much time/labor it takes. Unfortunately there aren't many quick-and-dirty panaceas in this game.

Thanks gnoahhh, spar varnish it is unless I hear otherwise.

PM me Roy if you get in a bind. "The devil's in the details."

I guess I should buy some checkering tools. How does re-checkering by hand work over pressed checkering, since the wood fibers have been, essentially, smashed?

It can be done ok.

The guy who does my Savage stocks has done the pressed-checkered stocks over for me. He is doing one now and says they are a bi-ch if done properly. The pressed checkering is originally done with heat and possibly steam I think. He uses an iron somehow, and slowly recheckers them properly. They look great when done but its a very slow and difficult process. Good luck.

Gnoahhh, regarding the "filling of pores" in the wood, why not just keep rubbing them over and over with a hand rubbed oil finish, until eventually the pores are all filled up? I know its a slow process but the end result is gorgeous. Here are two of my 99's with a hand-rubbed oil finish.
]99's with hand rubbed oil stocks[/url]

Thanks for the information. I think I will go with spar varnish.

This is a walnut stock, do I need to stain or will the varnish give it the classic look I am shooting for? Any color recommendations?

Sure, it can be done, but one runs the risk of the oil in the pores shrinking with time, not to mention the very real risk of the filler not staying in place in adverse wet conditions. Look real close with a strong light glancing off the wood and see if there aren't teeny tiny depressions over the pores. If there aren't any then the finisher used something other than linseed or tung oil to finish them.

Finishing oils sold commercially are really wiping varnishes thinned to-hell-and-gone, and should be labeled as such. Truoil is an example of that along with products from Formbies, Minwax, Watco, etc. One can do better if one mixes his own with a quality spar varnish, pure linseed oil (or tung oil- it doesn't matter), and a couple drops of mineral spirits-- heavy on the varnish and light on the oil.

Even so, as alluded to, it's a loooong slow process, and the end result is a finish still not nearly as water resistant as a barrier finish. If one is going to go to all that work for a nice oil finish, one may as well just varnish and be done with it, IMO. Truly, a varnish finish if done right and rubbed out carefully afterward, then waxed, is hard to tell apart from a properly done oil finish at first glance. Don't confuse that kind of finish with, for example, the thick tough clear finish on, say, a Browning. Done right it'll be a thin tough elegant water resistant finish that is actually easier to touch up than an oil finish.

I should say that I do feel oil finishes have their place. I use them all the time on furniture, objects of art, and guns that will rarely make it to the range let alone go hunting. Even though I strive anymore to avoid going hunting when there's a chance of rain or snow, sometimes I get caught out in it and for that reason I want those stocks to be as weather resistant as possible. (I once broke an 1899H takedown in half and stashed the pieces under my Woolrich coat when the clouds opened up. I can't do that with bolt guns and solid frames, so I prepare them for the worst.)

Edit to add that the rule of thumb is it takes as long to finish a project (properly) as it does to build it. As with most things in life, what you get out of it is equal to what you put in.

Try the varnish on a piece of scrap walnut and see if you like it. (You probably will.) If you want to stain it after that, bring it up again and we can address stains. My fingers are numb from typing!

You truly know far more about this than me.

Not trying to get in a pissing contest with you. Just trying to teach you something. If you choose not to listen that's your loss. All you have to do is put me on "ignore." Have a nice day.

Two different posters asked me to give my two cents here so I just read through the whole thread and have several comments...

Gnoahhh has everything correct. He left out a few important details and several of his suggestions are not what I would suggest, but they are certainly not wrong.

I am pretty certain Skidrow and I went to the same charm school, and he also sticks to the facts

Oil is not a material that makes a good filler. It absolutely will shrink over time, telegraphing pores. It is absolutely unavoidable. As gnoahhh suggested, pores that do not telegraph over time were not filled with oil.

Oil finishes have the mystique on their side... it was THE finish for a very long time and it can be made very pretty... It was also expensive enough that it had to be used sparingly and kept far beyond its reasonable shelf-life.

And that was why "hand-rubbing" became such a big deal. Once it started to cure it required effort to work it into the wood.

No oil finish is truly waterproof and oil finishes after curing are more hygroscopic (suck water vapor out of the air as opposed to hydro- which refers to liquid water affinity) than bare wood.

Today's wiping varnishes are very easy to apply, simply by rubbing on a heavy coat, waiting 10-15 minutes and wiping dry, repeated many times.

Always make a sample board when possible with a cut-off from the work or even in the barrel channel. I have had many folks test a sanded in finish and none has liked it compared to properly filled finishes. The difference is almost always glaring, the larger-pored the wood is the more glaring.

Old time stockmakers and today's high-end guys get away with oil finishes through several conditions; they tend to use very fine-grained wood, they "cheat" a little with other fillers, or they use a wiping varnish labeled as an "oil finish".

"Oil finish" simply means the finish will look like an oil finish when done and can be applied like one. Many "Tung Oil Finishes" do not even contain Tung oil... they just look like it. As gnoahhh already stated there is no meaningful difference between tung and linseed, assuming they are of the same grade.

A couple random points... never use any varnish other than gloss. The matting agents (usually silica) do nothing positive for the finish. Rub out the finish to achieve the luster desired after the fact.

Filling a stock with a varnish or spar varnish and topping off with oil will look like an oil finish, be easier to repair than oil because the harder finish will ding less and be as easy to repair.

I am certain things were lost in the translation of Mr Pritchard's finish method. Using 320 grit paper between every coat would eliminate any build and create scratches which would be difficult to remove later. Rubbed oil layers are extremely thin and need sanding infrequently between layers, and with very fine paper.
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