Wondering if anyone has shot the 300 savage to 1000 yards? The 308 seems like it does OK thinking the 300 would be close?

Well people are talking about shooting 22LR at 300 yds, why not 300 Savage at 1000yds...you'd never kill anything with either one, but it would certainly teach you about you hold and wind reading skills. I suppose if you practiced it enough it would make a 300yd shot feel like a chip shot.

I think the hardest part is to find a place to shoot 1000 yrds! Camp Perry or out west my club here in Cadillac does have a 600yrd range tho, but iv never shot it!

A Salvage 300 at 1000 yards?!!!! Can't be done!!!!!!

600 yards is pretty impressive! Just crazy thoughts on my end what do you guys think the purpose of extra long bbl's in the early special order days was? What do you think about long range 30-30?

Crossover period from black powder to smokeless the long barrels make sense. Past that, public perceptions had to catch up with smokeless technology.

Or it could be cuz they looked cool.

I wonder how many now dead enemies of the USA there are that thought same thing before they got hit center mass with a 308 round at 1000 yards?

Are? 0

At one time, many years ago, I "adjusted" the fire out of 105mm and 155mm howitzers at ranges from 1,000 yards to 10,000 yards or more, but my "hunting range limit" is a mere 250 yards using my Model 99 in .300 Savage caliber.

I imagine the bullet drop at 1,000 yards using the .300 Savage cartridge would also be measured in "yards" (vertical yards, that is), but I'll probably never find out, that's for sure!


Strength & Honor...

Ron T.

Up 250 right 100 fire.

IIRC a 175 Matchking needs to be launched at a minimum of 2550 fps to stay supersonic at 1000 yards - which can be done by a .308 with top loads, in an autoloader. You might get there with a bolt action, modern .300 Savage, with a long enough throat, but I don't think it would be easy. And I wouldn't try it at all in a 99

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Hahahahahaha... nice try.

Sorry, my friend... but we never "adjusted" artillery rounds that way. We used increments of 100 yards or more in even 100 yard increments (200, 400, 600, etc.). The only time we went to "50 yards" was in the final "add" or "drop" going into "Fire For Effect". The actual wording (following your range values) would be " Right 100", add 200."

Then if the base piece's (the base "gun's"),,, we only used the "base piece" (a single howitzer) to adjust the fall of the rounds we're adjusting to get on target... and only when the target was "bracketed" within 50 yards do we use all the howitzers in the battery. So if the round hit beyond the target, but alignment was about correct, the next command would be "Drop 100" in order to "bracket" the target with one round hitting over and one rounds hitting short, but within a 100 yards of the target.

At this point, unless the enemy was totally stupid, they'd be "bugging out" like crazy with an "over" and a "short" (of their position) just fired by an artillery piece... 'cause they'd KNOW what was coming next!!!

Then if that last round had hit short of the target, we have "bracketed" the target with a round "over" and a round "short" of the target and we were down to within 50 or less yards of the target since the previous round was over, and the last round was "short" by dropping only 100 yards.

And so, the final command to FDC (Fire Direction Center) would be "Add five zero, battery 3 rounds, fuse five-one-four (a radio/timed fuse for air-bursts 50 meters in the air for use over enemy personnel or "soft targets"), "Fire-for-effect!".

And if you were the Forward Observer for a 105mm howitzer battery, you'd get 3 rounds each from 6 howitzers or 18 air-bursting rounds over the target... and since the "kill-radius" on a 105mm round is about 50 yards, you most-likely would have "eliminated" a whole bunch of "targets".

Air-bursts from a 155mm round have a "kill radius" of 100 yards and with a air-burst 50 yards in the air, "battery 3 rounds" would only put 12 rounds on-the-target since a 155mm battery consists of only 4 guns, not 6 guns like the 105mm battery unit.

Incidentally, if the target was a T-34 (Russian-made tank the "gooks" used in Korea), a 155 H.E. (High-Explosive) round could knock the turret off a T-34 which tended to "ruin their WHOLE day" () ... whereas with a 105mm round, you needed to use a "H.E.A.T." round... "High-Explosive-Anti -Tank" pro-joe with a base fuse.

Wow... how's that for going back a lotta years??? I hope this didn't bore you...


Strength & Honor...

Ron T.

Ron. Interesing info. WOndered how all that worked! Thanks, Jeff

BTW those that don't think you can kill at 1000, at least with a 308 anyway... I wouldn't think that way.

I suspect my 90 jlks out of my 223 AR would kill too at 1000, they always did fine on the target anyway.

Depends on location.. I have 600 and 982 right here at the house. We have lots of ranges, well lets just say I can think of 5-6 within a few hours that go 600, of those there are 3 that go 1000 and I may not be thinking of them all...

Ron,

That was because you retired long before I did. Fire commands changed over the years. That lesson hit home hard when after six years of serving on I Corps staff when I got back to a line unit they had changed again. By the early '90s you just called the FDC and gave them the grid, type of target and the type of rounds that you were requesting and adjusted from there. Didn't even bother to announce "Fire Mission" because they knew why you were calling them. Then there was "immediate suppression" where you just threw the FDC a grid and got half a battery fire for effect RFN. If need be you then adjusted from that. Time goes on and procedures change. Merry Christmas Ron.

Take care,
George

and a MERRY CHRISTMAS to you, too, George.

Yes, I had some thoughts that the commands may have changed,.. and we never heard of or used that "grid" method. We use to do a lot of adjusting from the base piece firing a round into the "center-of-sector"... and then, adjusting from there. But sometimes, those "sectors" were pretty large... and it sometimes took "mucho" adjusting to finally put some rounds-on-target.

And I noticed you adjusted "250" (yards/meters?)... did they start "splitting" the 100 yard segments during the initial adjustment phase on either windage and/or elevation? We never got down to the "Add or Drop five zero" command until the final adjustment & the FFE (Fire-For-Effect) command.

I noted that you were on the "I-Corps Staff"... that means you were a "Light" Colonel??? I was just a measly ol' Captain at the "battery" level... SIR !~!~!

Jezzzzz... I guess I'd be in "major poop-poop" now if I was still "in" a battery unit.

Oh well, I should have figured that things changed quite a bit. After all, everything else had change a lot including my bank account "balance". As my age goes UP, that balance keeps going DOWN !

I noticed on the T.V. news that they've even changed the "look" of the 105s as well... that "new model" looks a lot more modern, but does it "shoot" any better?!?

And I wondered, is the 155mm's barrel still unpainted (silver-colored)? I always thought that big ol' silver-colored "snout" made a very visible "target" for the enemy's "in-coming" counter-fire !

Butttttttttttt...I dunno that, either... hahahahahahaha...


Strength & Honor...

Ron T.

Hi Ron,

When I first started my "short" career we'd announce "Fire Mission" and then give a direction from our position to the target, a grid and a range. Then, as you said, we'd adjust fire from the base piece. You could give adjustments in any increment of meters that you thought would get steel on target. Later on when I was in Regimental Cav and we, as the Squadron Tank Company had a dedicated battery and we worked a lot with pre-plotted targets, given we had a defensive scenario. With the pre-plots you just called the the target ID, for instance H1290 and called for fire for effect. I can still remember one of my available pre-plots in the Fulda Gap. HA1776 was box 1500 meters wide and 500 meters deep and if you called it you would have gotten all the artillery that Corps could provide that was in range plus Air Force. About that time the Squadron howitzer batteries adopted the "split battery" concept where they could fire two fire missions at a time supporting two units simultaneously. In that case you called for "Immediate Suppression," threw them a grid and if your grid was accurate you got 3 guns X 2 rounds on the target of your choice. If need be you could adjust from there or call for "Repeat" as needed. Then after GPS came along you didn't even call for a "Fire Mission" anymore. You just called in your "spot report" to higher and as the FDC was monitoring your radio frequency if you wanted artillery at the end of the spot report you'd add "Request Artillery." I'm sure that it has changed quite a bit. It's been 22 years after all. I have to admit though that one of the few things I miss is calling for live fire artillery. Watching a "Fire for Effect" when you got it right was just about the most fun you can have with your pants on.



Not even close Ron! I retired as a mere PSG/E7. Strangely enough, for the first two years I worked in I Corps, G3 Warplans, due to a shortage of officers I did work in an O4 slot but eventually we got a Captain in to fill that slot and I reverted back to an E7 slot.

As to the look of the guns that depends on if you're talking about towed 105s or mechanized 105s. I usually worked with mechanized M109s and when I wasn't, since the guns weren't in my unit I never saw them.

Actually, when I first started out in tanks if you missed on your first round you gave your gunner a similar "subsequent fire command" something to the effect of "add 100 right 50, fire." That too changed over the years.

Hope this all makes sense to you and sorry to the OP for getting so far OT.

Take care,
George

An E-7, eh? Hmmmmmm... you musta been pretty darned smart to service up at I-Corps in a Major's slot.

But don't "knock" the non-coms, trust me, they "RUN" most of the "show" if we could get the O-1's to shuddup and learn something from their Sgts.

Only a few of those 'brown bars" (2nd. Lts.) knew anything.., and even THAT was questionable!!! However, in their "defense", SOME of 'em were smart enough to keep their mouths SHUT and listen to their Sgts... some of whom had more "stripes" on their sleeves than a zebra has on it's WHOLE body !~!~!

Splitting 100 yard (meter) increments during the adjustment phase needed an Observer with "micrometered" eye-balls at 5,000 yard targets... but some of the guys could do it, I guess.

It surely sounds like the Army finally "got-it-right". Your Observer/firing "system" is much faster and undoubtedly more productive and useful in getting fire-on-the-target ASAP than our's was... and splitting the battery into 2x3 howitzers makes a lotta sense, too... especially in the 105mm batteries which had 6 howitzers.

I was in both kinds of 105mm units... towed 105s (by a "deuce" and a �) and, for a while at Ft. Knox, Ky, in self-propelled 105s. And, for a time, I was the Executive Officer in a 155mm (towed) battery... their "separate-loading" rounds were much slower-to-load than the 105s, but their "BOOM" is a LOT bigger...

It's been a REAL "education" talking to you, George... and I sincerely "appreciate" all the up-dated info you've given this old warrior.

It's not a whole lotta "fun" gettin' old... 'most everything "hurts" and what don't "hurt" don't WORK, but those "memories" don't seem to fade all that much.


Eternal Strength & Honor to ya, George...

Ron T.

Ron,

It takes a lot of courage to live a long life. Since you've got a leg up on me in that respect I Salute you! I was very fortunate that during my military career I mostly worked at least one position above my pay grade. I was a Buck Sergent tank commander, a SSG PSG and quite often either a SSG or PSG Platoon Leader and later a PSG ISG. One thing that I had to learn early on in my career was to tell NCOs and sometimes officers "Don't let your rank get in the way of my position." Most of them figured it out and for those that didn't it mostly turned out badly for them. I turned down both OCS and West Point because at the time I didn't plan on making a career out of it. I guess the only reason that I did was because I couldn't make up my mind what I wanted to do when I grew up so I just stayed on enjoying what I was doing. I hope that your time in the military was as satisfying to you as mine was to me.

Take care,
George

Thanks George,

I hadn't thought of the Fulda Gap since I left there in '88. A very "tense" neighborhood. It amazed me how those people could live their lives watching "them" watching us. Had the hair up on the back of my neck for two years.

I suppose there are still people there watching even though the wall is down and the cold war is "over"

All the best,

Doug

Not a 13 series guy, but the new 777 is an amazing titanium piece of death flinging machinery. Most everything is computer adjusted, only the old grizzly Master Gunners can really do it the old way. First round hits at max range are the norm.

Six years ago I was sitting in turret of a MRAP in Southern Helmand Astan behind a M2 while getting bracketed by bad guy mortars. The last round before we rolled out hit right at the back door. Woke me the *%*& up no doubt. Screaming into the headset we finally moved, a couple hundred yards away max, when the fire for effect came in.

Only mortars and not 155, but I promise you hot steal is to be respected.

We got em back a couple hours later with two M2's shooting AP incindiary and a M19 lobbing HE.