For those whom might like such data, here it is.
In previous range outings, my 1899-B with 26" octagon barrel registered 2166 fps with Varget and 180 gr Sierra round nose bullets.
Recently acquired a 1926 99TD F with 20" tube, chronoyed today and got 2004 fps. The old rule of thumb says aprox 25 fps per inch, wich is perty dern close to what I got. I got lucky in the respect both love the same load. Thats nice so I don't have to have multiple loads for my 303s. My 5 shot group was 2.5 inches. At 100 yards peeped, I couldn't be more content. Good outing, and actually learned a thing or two.

Very nice! Early reading from Savage from 1897 to 1902 showed they stated velocities ranging from 1840fps to 2000fps, so you're ahead of the original ammo.

Good to hear about your 303s. I think I remember seeing your 303 1899 in an older post and it was an accurate one. Finding another 1899 in 303 for myself is near the top of the list. It was a very enjoyable cartridge to load and shoot and I really liked it in the full size 1899 rifle. I don't know if I tried that particular 180 RN or not. Yours sounds like a good combination, also in your 99TD. I do shoot a lot of the Sierra 170 FN bullets in several rifles and it's been an accurate one for me.

Thanks for the info. The last time I shot my 99F in .303 was with cast bullets. It seemed to love any bullet design and powder combination I threw at it. I usually find that to be a good sign. Thanks again!

I guess its a testimonial to Savage quality from the beginning. I've had 3 shot groups under an inch peeped at 100 yards with both 303s mentioned. I say its half luck, half good loads and half skill, in any order you want to list em. Have stated before, there is something bout the 303 that I really love. Funny, cause the 30-30 is almost identical twin, but have no love for it. Can't explain why.

Not to make a bad pun, but the 30-30 and.303 are neck to neck in performance. The reason I give a slight nod to the .303 is because it has a longer neck, providing a little more support for the bullet. I think that both are inherently accurate cartridges.

Cool. I clock 1860 fps with my 190 grain cast bullet hunting loads. A lot can be said about heavy-ish blunt .30 bullets at our velocity levels.

I picked up a bag of loose 303 cartridges yesterday, some miniatures and some regular loads. I like to pull one apart now and then. The 190 grain 303 cartridges look like they were cleaned at least once but I don't think they are recent reloads. Maybe someone more knowledgeable on Savage cartridges can fill in the details.



The Murray book shows this headstamp being either UMC loaded to 1900 or Savage Arms Co. to 1917 as far as I can tell. The bullet measures about .3085" and weighs 190.5 grains. The charge weighs 28 grains and looks to me like Laflin & Rand (later Hercules) Lightning or could be Laflin & Rand W.A. 30 Cal according to what I read in Sharpe's Complete Guide to Handloading as well as one other source. Both types of this powder using perforated black discs were introduced in 1898 if I've identified them correctly. I don't have a Savage powder pamphlet here but I do have a 1902 Winchester one to look at. They noted either 28 grains of DuPont 30 cal. or 28 grains of Laflin & Rand W.A. 30 Cal. I don not know what DuPont 30 cal. looks like for sure.

I'm guessing the "S" primer is for Savage. Does anyone have any ideas about the time frame of the cartridge, powder type etc.

As long as we are talking about the 303 I thought it relevant. I've been loading older smokeless cartridge rifles for period ballistics for the most part.

Now if only I could find a pound of Varget... Thanks for posting that load tho, 303 Savage reloading data is seriously hard to find. I ended up using something I found from the intraweb with 150 grn bullets.

I gave up on retail outlets, and have great luck finding Varget and other powders at shows, usually at retail prices. Good luck.

Never checked the velocities from my .303's OR 30-30's but the result of said velocity has been somewhat impressive.

Gun.



Look close,,,,,,,,,,,,gut pile.



Dead deer.



99H .303=

Dead deer





1899A special order gun 30-30 Win 170 grain Rem hollow point bullet. My "special" reloads,



What ever velociuties these were didn't matter to the deer.

Don't argue with success. Velocities only matter to safe loads, not deer, or any critter you be shooting. They don't know the difference.
Thanks for the great fotos Steve.
Jerry

Pet Loads has good recipes for the .303 in both cast and jacketed loads. The article was written in the late 60s. So too do the older Lyman manuals (circa 1950s-70s). I haven't ran into more recently published data.

You're more than welcome. I nEVER even come close to maximum velocities. Just deadly ones.

If anyone is interested in some velocities with a powder a little easier to find than Varget:

From my 99 .303 with 22" barrel, all using H4895 and CCI 200 primer with Privi brass. These are on the mild side in my rifle, max case head expansion was .442"

Sierra 150, 32.0, 2283 fps
Speer 130, 33.0, 2350 fps

Both loads very accurate

Brad, from what I can find the "S.A.CO. .303 SAV." head stamp was used by Savage from 1914 to 1917 (depending on how much inventory was on hand when they switched from "CO." to "Corp.". From 1898 to 1914 it was "S.A.CO. .303".

Savage loaded their own ammo till around 1928 (maybe 1934). The early Savage ammo boxes state that the ammo was loaded with Savage brand powder. I don't think Savage ever made powder or primers they just purchased from other makers. The "S" marked primers are thought to be from Union Cap & Chemical CO. as "S" marked primers have been found mixed in their primer tins.

Thanks for that information on the headstamps and primers Rick.

LBK if you state you never come close to maximum velocities how do you know what maximum is? If you don't know what your bullets velocity is how do know if it is close to max? I do not own a chronograph and am asking to gain knowledge not to argue. Thanks John.

For reloading 30-30 AND .303 I consult several of my MANY reloading manuals and NEVER go above any of the mid range loads stated for the bullet weight used. NORMALLY my go to manual is a Lyman. WHY????????? Because Lyman doesn't sell jacketed bullets or powder. They are unbiased. I use the components stated in the test. I do not substitute components. They are pretty conservative. PLUS when you squeeze the trigger and can hear the bullet hit the target, that's SLOW!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am usually 1-2 grains below max listed loads. Find my best accuracy and better brass life. Never felt the need to hot rod. Don't make critters any deader.

I have a chronograph, but rarely use it anymore. Like LBK (LBJ's successor) I never tread anywhere close to max with anything. Last time I did that was with a .243 way back when I was young, dumb, and full of... Didn't make stuff any deader and I went through brass cases like most people go through underwear, and the throat eroded horribly. Heck, I load my '06's down to .30-40 levels and my .300's down almost to .30-30 levels, and life is pleasant.

A wise man told me once that a bullet only has to go fast enough to outrun a paper target. Who cares if the hole was punched by a bullet going the speed of sound or Mach 3? Accuracy is what matters, not speed. As for hunting, I have actually killed more deer in my life with .45 and .50 lead round balls loafing along at sedate velocities from muzzle loaders than with all my "modern" guns combined. A wad of soft lead going 16-1800fps does terrible things to living tissue, whether fired from a .45 ML or from a .30 caliber.

We are steeped in the lore of the current "sniper culture", gun magazine cowboys, and internet super heroes who would have you believe that if a gun won't shoot MOA at 500 yards with only 12" of drop it's worthless. That all game is killed at nigh onto a quarter mile away is a given, it would seem. IMO the best distance stretcher for any gun isn't more velocity but rather one's own hind legs. It's why it's called "hunting" and not "killing".

What I am seeing with my reloading is some mid to low end Book loads are too hot for the chamber not to stick:in that paticular rifle. How do I know that load was not above max since I do not own a chronograph?

What exactly are the load recipes that are giving you a problem?

John. The ONLY thing a chronograph will give you is velocity and related stats. Sd, high and low vel. and averages. It will NOT give you pressure. If your cases are sticking the first thing I would do is check the chamber and make sure it's smooth without pitting. I would look at your cases inside and out for pressure signs. And I consult multiple manuals to see that they at least are somewhat agreeable.

But you don't get velocity without pressure.. Going by book loads is great, but if there's confusion or doubt, a chrony is going to help you figure out what the devil is going on fast (pun intended ).

On sale now, $75.
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/626107/caldwell-ballistic-precision-chronograph

That's why I don't go by book loads. I use the manuals as a guide only. At the low end/mid range loads, if 4-6 of my manuals are within reason of one another, then I'll start there and check for accuracy. I have had a chronograph for years and the ONLY reason I use it is to calculate my energy for a given load. It doesn't take much of a load to get 1000 fp. I've been doing this for years with great success. If you are confused or doubtful than I suggest you shouldn't be reloading in the first place. "Most" manuals are ultra conservative. They are very cautious about releasing load information that could be the result of impending liability. They do misprint, but luckily I have not actually seen this.

Different powders have different burn characteristics, Captain Obvious here. Like pumps have different performance curves. Try a different powder for the different pressure curves and see if you can get the velocity up w/o the pressure spike that's giving you trouble.

Check the chamber too.

I have one (for $75 why the heck wouldn't a guy have one?), but I use it pretty much only when I need to work out ballistics for longer ranges for hunting (PointBlank is good, free software for that btw) or when I'm shooting what should be a medium load but start seeing something that could be pressure signs. I find that the book loads NEVER match for velocity (almost always high), and thus trying to calculate ballistics off of the book velocity is a good way to shoot a deer in the knees.
Back when I hunted wide open spaces more and pushed some bolt actions to near max loads I used it religiously to monitor velocity.

Ok good for you. You're sounding more and more like a computer guy. Me, I just like killin' stuff............ Know your gun, know your loads and know your capability. I shot a deer in BOTH front knees ONCE. In fact I visited that exact spot just this past weekend with my son and the rest of the family. Haven't been back to that spot for 44 years. At any rate I was shooting a mod 740 Remington in 30-06. This deer stepped out at no more than 40 yards. He was behind an apple tree with a limb horizontal covering his vitals. I was young and stupid. The limb was about 6" thick and I figured at that range with such a GREAT rifle I's shoot through the limb and be done with it. I did and the deer took off jumping like a kangaroo. I chased it until it got hung up on a stone wall. I finished him off with a round to the neck. NEVER EVER did i do that again. Sight your rifle in with a load that is adequate to kill a deer humanly and do NOT CHANGE ANYTHING. Once I have a sweet load I do not tinker.

But we're getting away from the topic. If my cases are sticking, I don't jump immediately to pressure. But I also do not discount it.

I have found that in "most" cases the test barrel is 26" unless otherwise stated. If your rifle has a shorter barrel, than it stands to reason your velocities will be less.

Seems like that varies by book. Some test customs, some test factory sporting guns.

Computer guy? Okay.. different hunting out here where 400+ yard shots can be taken regularly. These are shots you just shouldn't even try without knowing velocity, drift and energy. Which is where the chrony comes in even with factory ammo.
Now that I hunt my little 30 acres and never take a shot over 125 yards, it's not so important, probably more like your hunting. But I still run the ballistics just in case I end up chasing a wounded one because 100 yards off of my land and you can see for miles (literally).

BINGO. I will NEVER forget the ONE time I got to hunt for 2 weeks in Oregon with my nephew He sat me on the edge of a cliff, literally, and gave me a set of field glasses and said start "hunting". I don't envy you guys. Two very different circumstances of which to hunt under. No offense, but I'll take mine over yours anytime. Not near as many boundaries out here. Park the vehicle an hunt for the most part. If I wound an animal, highly unlikely ( ) and it gets onto another piece of property I just go gettem............

I recently bought my first rangefinder. Not for deer so much- 125 yards is a loooong shot where I hunt, so any reasonable cartridge will do just fine with a reasonable point blank range zero- but rather for squirrel hunting. 0-50 yards with a .22 target rifle zeroed for 50 yards equals a dead squirrel. Beyond 50 yards and things get interesting as those slow match bullets start dropping pretty fast. Knowing the velocity, drop at various distances, scope settings on the micrometer mounts worked out by serious bench times, and pre-selected distances from the stand ranged with the rangefinder makes for taking the guess work out of long shots- kinda like working across long ranges out on the prairie with a CF rifle I suppose. It'll come in handy with my .22 Hornet + cast loads for the same purpose and technique, with a longer effective range than with the 52 Winchester.



The older I get, the more excited I am about squirrel hunting over deer hunting!

Sorry, I digress.

The few times I hunted "out west" was in Wyoming in the high desert. Not anything like the experiences of a lot of you guys, but here goes. I used a Mannlicher-Schoenauer .257 Roberts with (yikes) a scope, sighted for 200 yards, and bullet drops worked out to 400 yards. Every antelope and every mule deer I bagged was within 75 yards. A couple were so close I could've got them with an arrow. My guide on each occasion (the same guy, Randy Greer out of Gillette) asked if I wanted to hunt or snipe. When I said hunt, he smiled and we embarked on long stalks through sage brush and belly scraping prickly pear cactus. I shall carry the fond memories of those grueling stalks forever.

Again, I digress. (But y'all expect that of me, right?! )

Lots of up and down here, not so much flat ground stalking.

I bet you like them grey squirrels. They can still Crack a nut. You should try drear hunting. As in a deer face and a Bear ass. Any ways h 4895 in the 300 savage and lever whatever powder in the 30 30 will not go much past if to mid range loads 4 me.

There is some right funny stuff in this thread.

I have a PAC crony.. it's a toy IMO .your primer is a much better indicator of pressure then anything else the average guy owns . like LBK I run my loads in the middle .why try to make the 303 something it's not ? A deer will never know the difference in 100fps.

plab

Thanks for the tip Calhoun gonna get me a chronograph and step my knowledge up a notch.

Man, this thread gets funnier and funnier.

I suggest you boys sticking with discussing if it's an H or K.

+1. When you're right, you are right. Pouring water on a ducks back.