Here are a few pictures of the local gunshop 75 years ago. Shiff the gunman about 15 miles north in North Woodstock, had his shop there from 1920-1952 when he died. He was very famous and known worldwide,and hated democrat rule,namely Roosevelt and his new deal ,and J.edgar Hoover and his Gestapo. He used to have a franklin dime on the floor and as you came thru his door ,you were required to stamp on that dime !!! heres a few pictures in his shop.

Love it!

Kinda looks like someplace we've seen before.......

Complete with beard.

I think he had all the rifles in another part of his shop! not many in these pictures my father used to ride his bicycle up there to buy 22 H.P. savage ammo !

I always said I was born out of time. There's further proof.

Loggah, are there any small gun shops around that area any more?

An old wheel gun up behind his left ear in the top picture.

Anybody know what that is?

Colt?

+1

That wheel gun may be a Roper, especially seeing we seem to be looking at shotguns.

Awesome!!!! Thanks for the post..

Makes you wonder how many of your 99s spent time in shops like these.

Schiff, had a large colt collection,it could be a colt or roper revolving rifle,shotgun. I have a 1926 flyer he put out and was listing 99's and 1920 models. I have some pictures of savage pistols he had ,some in 45 colt. the collection of old stuff he had was amazing ,and quite a few sharps rifles. There are no gunshops real close to me anymore,25 miles plus away most good ones are 50 miles away. Don

I though so to at first, but the magazine appears to be fluted, possibly a cylinder, the Roper's were a round housing that was part of the receiver... for the rotary magazine (I wonder if Arthur ever saw one of these). 'Forgotten Weapons' has a video on how the Roper works - not your normal gun, fires from an open bolt -
Roper action open & ready to fire form open bol-
/www.americanarmsandantiques.com
youtube.com/Roper Video

I think Roper action was probably developed from the Marston breech loading single shot percussion rifle. Rope also made a few rifles, the first to use a rotary magazine almost 30 years before Savage????

Boy oh boy! What I wouldn't give to walk in there this morning, look around, and try to strike up a conversation with that old fella. I bet he'd have some good stories to tell.

Sylvester Roper also built 2 steam motorcycles, he actually died of a heart attack, when he was riding one on a board track. A friend of mine owns one of them,nothing like having a small hot steam boiler between your legs.

There are a few, but hardly any recoil pads.

Thanks for posting. Definitely cool pics.

thanks for sharing, might have been a few tall tales told in there

Mr. Shiff looks like he did what he enjoyed and didn't give a corn sheit what anyone else thought.
Reminds me of LBK.

Also reminds me of a fellow Nort' of here known as Woodtick Dick.

And finally, I've been known to wear a squirrel pin and gators but I take 'em off at the end of the day.

Don;

Were all of those guns for sale or were those guns just for looking at?

Appears he may have bought way more than he sold.

Not an unheard of practice, just curious.

How daMN MANY shotguns does a store need? Musta been a helluva lotta small game to hunt back then iz all I can say.

Not so much a question of how much small game but rather the fact that the country was a lot more rural back then and a lot more folks hunted.

Darn cool! Spent some time in North Woodstock, as my wife has family there. Sure the men passed through that shop! Hildus Knudsen, on Lost River Rd. Had cabins for rent. That place sure did change a lot! Seemed like all of a sudden, mid 1980's.

I have to tell you back in the day around here,lots of people could only afford 1 gun !so a shotgun in the brush with buck or slug was their deer gun also. Shiff was one of the few guys that actually sent out a mailer and sold guns thru the mail.I think if you look at the far upper left in this photo you can see a row of savage rifles. Im going to try and get a better photo.




Also heres a bunch of real rifle loonies that were friends of Shiff,this photo was part of his collection.They were the real shooters of the day.

Don that last picture is very interesting. I can not blow it up enough to see the front mount very well but the rear looks like the one Gene just aquired?

I couldn't tell either ,but the barrel appears to be round,so im thinking regular target scope blocks. here is another photo from my Shiff collection, a pair that would beat a full house!

I already looked at those mounts, it's the first thing that caught my eye in the picture. They are not his make and are much later, I think it's a Fecker scope and those look like Fecker mounts, 'Old Gun Scopes' says Fecker started in the mid 20's. The bump on the top of the front mount is not a hinge but houses a spring loaded grooved plunger that rides on a rib on the scope, this scope is designed to be sit in the bottom of the front mount.

I have a similar set I was going to get a picture of ....somewhere....

Don thanks for sharing these.

I think that was the general condition of most the country. That, and coupled with the perspective that firearms were pretty much something more akin to a tool than anything else. We are lucky to live in a time when there is such a surplus of wealth that allows us acquire an abundance of material wealth.

Don

Did you just come into these? They're amazin' to say the least. And the one with Roberts and Pope talking! At Walnut Hill no less. Historic. Thanks for posting them.

Steve, i got them a few weeks ago, i probably have around 300 photos that came from Shiff's scrapbook, most are different firearms,and a lot were taken by Ned Roberts and sent to Shiff. I also got all the correspondence from the chief of police at the time,with shiffs heirs and the lawyers involved, hell i even got the old deed from when shiff bought the property in 1920!! Theres a lot of muzzleloader pictures,target rifles and one of a kind firearms. Lots of colt pictures from pattersons,up thru different devolepment pictures to the 1847 Walker,with lots of prototype pictures. mind boggling for sure. Don

In the Walnut Hill photo it looks like we have two Ballard’s, Pope has an 85 Winchester, I’m not sure what the guy to his left has (might be a 1903 T), and the guy in the fedora at the far right has an 03. Who knows what the scopes are? Who knows who all the guys are?

Thanks Don, nice acquisition.

The last names are written on the back,some are quite famous. clockwise from far left.

Chet Moore
John Shaw
Stevens
Rudolph Tharnish
lucian Cary
Elliott
Dickerson
Kelley
Dwyer, in the white shirt,the last man to the right was unnamed.Lucian Cary wrote quite a few stories for the Saturday evening post,and was the Gun editor for True magazine for 20 years.He wrote quite a few stories ,called the J.M.Pyne stories based on Harry M. Pope. as the subject.

When I was about ten years old, my father ordered some Fawcett books on fishing. The price was the same for five books as four, so he ordered "Lucian Cary on Guns" for me as the fifth. I just about wore through the pages with my eyes, reading that book over and over. That is what set me on the primrose path of guns.

Cary, Is quite the story teller, I'm reading the J.M.Pyne stories for the second time! Heres another famous gunsmith from days gone by,another picture from the album.

Gun Digest ran the J.M Pyne stories in the 60's. Great stories.

When I saw the pic I thought that was Lucian Cary. I'm sure Harry was merely posing with that High Wall (and yes it wears a Fecker scope, identical to the one I have on my M52), because Harry Pope injured his left wrist 30 or so years before that photo was taken and gave up competitive shooting after that as he didn't have the strength in the wrist to hold a heavy rifle through the course of a long day on the firing line. He was 75 in the picture. He died in 1949.

I too revel in Cary's J.M.Pyne stories. I have a book containing all of them, with stories by Cary about how he got into precision shooting and made friends with Pope in the process. I guess I know what my bedtime reading will be tonight!

If I walked into Shiff the Gun Man's place today you would find me still there tomorrow.

I posted these pictures in the muzzle loader forum,but i might as well keep my rambling on here. these are 3 pictures taken by Ned Roberts on june 22,1940. The pictures are of Elmer Wolf's gunshop,and homestead in Thurmont Md.







as you can see old Elmer was a snappy dresser,just like myself!!

Distinct similarity! Somehow I think the Vault would be cozier in the wintertime. But on the other hand Elmer had a Model A Ford to pose behind.

Ya still running a model "A" 19 years after the last one was built,ol Elmer was pretty frugal!!

Great thread!

I can certainly see the similarities in fashion choices. Don, is the snappy dresser Ned Roberts? And one more if you don't mind, is the shed Elmer's gun shop do ya think? I can't imagine why Ned Roberts would shoot a picture of it unless it was. Again, thanks for posting these treasures!

Steve, The shed was Elmers workshop, in the picture Elmer is standing beside a Major Jerome Clark from Purcelville Va. In the background you can see his barrel rifling machine outdoors. i guss it didn't take much of a building to turn out a pennsylvania style muzzle loading rifle.

This post is rad as hell, its got me wondering if this store is where my 99 came from.

I'm going back to "WALNUT HILL" for a moment,lots of milling around here,no date,no names,maybe some of our older experts will recognize some !!



some of these rifles might have been there.They are all in 32-40,far right one Weber of Cincinnati,Ohio,next is by Geo.Schoyen of Denver Co. the next one is by Zisching of Syracuse N.Y. I really like savage rifles,but i surely wouldn't turn one of these beautys away !!!!!!



I think they are Sharps-Borchart actions,but i'm not sure.

That wood is incredible on those, even in B&W! Thanks for sharing all these photos Don!

Don they are borchardt’s

I sure like mine it is one that will stay with me to the end, 25 Krag Ackley long Unfortunetly it has a slow twist like the 250 originally had. I always figured on adding another.

Please keep the photo’s comming

Sharpe's Borchardt's you say?

I have a few more that my wife has scanned, were headed back to Shiff's gunshop,his shop was pretty rustic also,had a bunch of outbuildings,and local barnyard critters and a small garden. The bigger building was his,home,shop!



Heres a few pictures of him in his shop,notice the up to code electrical wiring!






this last picture has shiff outside his shop with a large punt gun ,and a giant powder horn,no telling what he was gunning for !

That rifle/shotgun may have been hanging from the ceiling in one of your first pictures. Would love to see some of actual shooting at Walnut Hill.

Those were most all of the walnut hill pictures,there are 2 more, but no pictures of shooting there.

Thanks again, Don. This stuff is priceless. (To we loonies anyway!)

:urge to organize NH savage fest intensifies:

Thanks so much for the old photos, the Lucien Cary stories, and the memories that came back. I used to go to Kansas City and visit a store in the 70's and early 80's called C.R. Specialty Co. Made some good friendships with some great personalities there. Didn't have much money then so I missed out on several Savages in those days. Keep the photos coming. Thanks again. Rusty

Is there anything of the old place left standing?

Awesome. Thanks for posting this!

There might be a few outbuildings, The rumors were Shiff had money stashed here and there on the property,the person who bought the property destroyed most of the buildings and used a backhoe to dig all over the place looking for the cash.My belief is he had most of his money tied up in guns !!!!!!!

Heres a couple more pictures from the album,not sure if Shiff owned the Patterson or not,and this Colt collection from the 1940's was owned by a friend of his here in N.H,Im withholding his name ,so his decendents wont be bombard with questions, offers

Ye gods and little fishes! A cased Colt Patterson is bad (good) enough, but that collection of Colts....

I am surely enjoying this thread. Thank you for posting!!!

I used to work for the forest Service and found that rumors of money, gold and other treasures buried on historic sites was the norm. Metal dectectors usually went to the base of trees because that was the natural place for all of it to be buried. Never mind that the tree wasn't there 75 or a 150-years ago. Thanks for the pictures, they are a great window into a bit of local history from your area.

I first got interested in black powder in the late 70s and remember reading how cheap cap and ball revolvers went for (even when factoring in inflation) in the 1950s. Ah, only for the opportunity to have had the wits and foresight to have bought barrels of those things back in the 50s and early 60s.

Are my eyes fuzzy, or would the sixth "pistol" down in the fifth row over from the left happen to be a Walker?

That would be a walker! But the one above it was the experimental colt,before the walker,no loading lever.

I was wondering about that one. Geez, how of many of those do think are still in existence, let alone were ever made? Makes you wonder how he come into possession of a pre-Walker Walker??

During the 20's and 30's my father's uncle went around the farms in PA looking to buy cap-and-ball Colts (and god knows what else) for which his standard offer was $1.50. He took many car trunks full of them over to Philadelphia where he sold them to a gun guy for $3.00 each. I shudder to think of the jewels (and the garbage) that must have filtered through his hands.

That is amazing. I also see a Bisley with a 12" barrel

Note the odd contour of the lower frame and the square loading lever on that one, I think you have to go one more down for a Walker (actually looks like the next two or three),Walkers had round loading levers without a latch at the front.

After further review, could those possibly be the infamous 4 fake Walker 'experimental's' that were sold in 1931 from a larger colt collection?
experimental Walker
I am looking for pictures, I have seen the pictures before somewhere, possibly in 'The Whitney Firearms' by Claud E. Fuller, I think they were covered in that (but not as fakes at it's writing) because the Walkers were contracted out to Whitney Arms.

Walkers? Did I hear you say Walkers as in plural? Colt only made 1,000 of them - and to have more than one... How many of the 1,000 you think have been lost to time, the junk heap and in battle? Seems to me that Sam Walker had serial numbers 1 and 2, and that one of those went missing during the Mexican American War - or something like that.

There were several earlier versions of the walker,1840 thru 1847,they were known as the walker -collins and were 47 caliber with a longer cylinder then the standard walker. and different styles of loading levers, There are pictures of the different models in the scrapbook .I think the 5 in a row are the different Walker versions.Gene,It could be these are bogus,i believe the photo was taken fairly early.

This picture was also in the album,pretty neat old photo.



Panther shot by Alexander Crowell in Barnard Vt. on thanksgiving day 1881

Great thread and photos.

In The Muzzle Loading Cap lock Rifle by Ned Roberts there is a photo of Mr. Shiff holding an original Hawken.

There has always been overlap between shooters and gun nuts, most of us are both, but it seems that in times past the former outnumbered the latter. These days there are more gun nuts than real shooters, IMO.

Paul

Keep 'em coming!!!

There are hundreds of pictures of target rifles,muzzleloaders ,antique revolvers,i know there a few hawken and plains rifles in them.Ned Roberts hunted this area quite a lot when he was a young man ,his relatives lived in the area and they hunted bear in the Campton,Waterville area.

Enjoying this Thread Don!

Heres a couple more pictures from Shiff's photo album,The hunter William Green was a friend of shiff's and was a pretty famous houndsman,cats and bear were his specialty ,but he hunted all over the world,i believe these pictures were from the early 40's.He was from the vermont,new hampshire border area. His grandson is another good houndman ,and hunts pretty regular with my nephew Mike !!

HOLY SMOKES!! Did those cats and big bear come out of your neighborhood Don??

The cats for sure came from out West, Utah,Colorado area i believe ,The bear could have been from around here,we have some pretty big bear in the area. Don

Love the hound photos! I don't guess there were any showing the dogs treeing, were there?

Not any of my pictures,His grandson had some old 8mm movies put on discs, there was alot of action there of the hounds treeing cats and bear!

Heres a christmas card sent to Shiff from Ned Roberts ,mailed from Berlin N.H in 1930, said they werent hunting much that day it was below -40 degrees !!

Heres a few pistols, might even have a savage in there !



and a 40 Lb.Billinghurst target rifle with a malcolm scope



Billinghurst was a gunsmith from Bellows Falls Vt.

I think I would be correct in thinking the top left (M-59) would be a 1915 model

Keep the photos coming sir they are incredible history even if it is half a world away

In .380 no less...

I at first i thought it was a 45 ,but i believe you guys are right. regardless i dont have one !! Heres a couple pictures of some high end shotguns,who knows what these are?? i think i know,but know i probably could never afford them. The bottom one appers to be a 3 barrel gun ,or Drilling.

Yuck, they're all scratched up. Poo poo.

Nah, it is a .45 and not a 1915 at all.
The grip safety was a version of the test pistol.
And it is much larger than a 1907, 1915 or 1917.

Thanks for sharing these Don, what a great look back.

I thought it looked awfully large too.

I guess i shouldn't have second guessed myself !!!!! Heres a couple more target rifles, a Pope and a very rare Farrow



The pope is on a Ballard action, and Milton Farrow built his action from scratch. He was the best rifle shot in the U.S. around 1900, The Farrow rifles are extremely rare and Shiff told Ned Roberts in all his time looking for and dealing in guns he had only seen 2. Don

That Farrow is one beautiful rifle!

Kinda looks like a "short stroke" savage!! I believe he worked for Marlin as a sales person,the lever looks like one off a 1889 marlin.I understand he made 2 different models.

Here is one of Shiff's favorite colts !! the inserts show the engraving on the barrel,and the steers eyes in the ivory grips are diamond inserts!!!! might have been worth a few bucks !!!!

Make it one of mine also! wonder what happand to it!

John, No idea, looks like a Bisley target model to me,but im no colt expert !

Its a Bisley Target, that alone made it big bucks

Thank you for your response, Sir. Love the tree dogs and would have loved to hunt bear or cats with the hounds. In LA, all we have to hunt with the tree dogs are squirrel and coons...love it, but it's not like hunting big game.

The Farrow has a very clean looking action. It makes the Ballard look kind of clunky. I'm not a huge fan of Winchester, but to me the 1885s are as about as clean as single shots get. But that Farrow is nice.

That was very well spotted
You are right it is a 45 cal I wonder what the stamp is in the grip

Indeed. And as rare and innovative as Farrow's rifles were, I would still have to opt for the Pope Ballard.

I've only seen Ballards from a distance. Odly enough, there's a pawn shop up in Redding that had several on display for years. I have never seen or heard about the Farrow. I take it the Farrow is a falling block action. Is the Ballard a falling or rolling block action like the Remington? If anyone wants to jump in I'd appreciate a discussion on these two rifles.

I never handled a Farrow, don't know anyone who has. I do have a copy of Farrow's book "How I Became a Crack Shot". Interesting fellow. The 90's-teens (1900's that is) really was the Golden Age for gunnies, and Farrow was at the head of the class. Someone in recent years tried to resurrect the Farrow rifle but it never went anywhere. The market for very expensive old-timey looking single shot target rifles is pretty limited in this day and age.

I have owned though a couple Ballards along the way, back in the 80's-early 90's when I was in my single shot phase. Both .22's, one with a C.C.Johnson barrel on it. (That Ballard was one of the most accurate .22's I ever owned, and that's saying something.) The Ballard was a falling block, and not a really strong one at that. The early ones had cast receivers and split breech blocks (two halves) which definitely should be relegated to .22 rimfire and not much else bigger. Later ones came in several frame sizes , forged steel, one piece breech blocks etc., and were to be found chambered for large-ish black powder hunting cartridges. Those are the really desirable ones IMO. A lot stronger in that regard but still nowhere near the strength of a Winchester HiWall. One also has to remember that Ballards went out of production as the smokeless era was ushered in, they were all built around black powder cartridges and any customization of them has to keep that in mind. The Ballard was the sweetheart of the target shooting set for a very important reason- they had the fastest lock time of any rifle in that era, and coupled with set triggers gives one an edge in offhand matches where one has to snatch the shot as the front sight or crosshairs wobble past the ten ring. Pope often said that the Ballard was his favorite chassis for building a precision .22 target rifle on.

Thanks Gary! On the subject of single shots, someday I'd like to land a good Stevens 44 1/2. I think the 44 1/2 post dates the "Golden Age" of the late-1800s/early-1900s a little, but they fall into the Savage universe and that adds a degree of appeal to me.

Indeed. Don't forget too that CPA is making new repros of the 44½, very tasty and not prohibitively expensive. A lot of them are in circulation now (relatively speaking) and die hard single shot guys really like them. They'll take modern pressures too.

I did not know that. Thanks again!

I just took a look at their website - pretty cool stuff. I can see one built up into a 32-40 or a 38-55. Or even something built along the style of a Stevens 418 or Walnut HIll - I'm kind of partial to the version with the front barrel band/swivel. Damn, now there's something else in this world to detract me from getting things done.

I wonder if that double shotgun and drilling were made by Fred Adolph? The combination of carving and checkering looks like his work. His shop was in Genoa New York, which wasn't that far away from New Hampshire.

They do look like Adolph's work. my wife is scanning a bunch more old pictures,theres even a savage ot two on them.

Here are a couple of more pictures from Shiffs album ,maybe what the well healed ,would have had back in the day. Colt patterson and some sort of early revolving rifle in the case !!





The case appears to be made of a single piece of wood !!

It makes you wonder how many of those firearms are still in existence and where they are.

Heres a few pictures of a Colt made schuetzen rifle,never seen or heard of one before these pictures, the insert has a bunch of names,along with the Colt co address.

And heres a unique revolver,and another picture of the Farrow target rifle.

Makes you wonder where they all are now?

That album is a historical treasure

Keep the pics comin Don.

I do have a bunch more ,but figured you guys were getting bored with this stuff. I did find a bit of information on the revolving rifle in the case. It was made by John Brownings Father,the first John Browning gunsmith. Well here are a few more.





In the top photo the bottom rifle is a hawkin, in the bottom photo a Colt lightning rifle,a Maynard target rifle ,and a Colt Burgess repeating rifle.

Heres a few more repeating rifles, the first may be a revolving shotgun




Heres one of those dreaded 1866 winchesters,a whitney Kennedy,and a deluxe Bullard.

We're NOT bored with your picture sharing, or the background info (John Browning's father!!)!!

I'll second that emotion.

Heres a couple pictures of Burgess shotguns,1 is a takedown ,and the other is a folding model. I know one of our old members "BOLTMAN" knew quite a bit about these.

Here are a few more, muzzle loaders ,the number 4 is a hawken, a colt revolving rifle and a volcanic carbine. the volcanic is the forerunner of the Henry,

loggan donot stop

Yea keep them comeing Don Great stuff!

Heres a early picture of a group of Texas Rangers,they were supposed to stop a prize fight but the fight was held across the border in Mexico.

Hers a few more colt repeating rifles!!



And a very rare Walker, Remington,Hepburn,Schuetzen rifle,owned originally by famous target shooter Dr.Hudson, stated at the photo time owned by Harvey Donaldson . Now blue book value up to $75,000

These pics are getting better & better
some of these firearms I have never heard of but to see the pics is invaluable
Thanks Loggah
& please don't stop

I wonder what the objection was to a prize fight, especially in Texas in 1896. Neat pictures Don, many thanks for taking the trouble.

Heres a few more from the album !!first picture a bunch of muzzle loaders ,kentucky style rifles and a miniature muzzle loader, the big clubby buttstock one is revoloutianary war vintage.



Edwin Wesson rifle

And a few more !! 2nd one down winchester model 1892 trapper carbine, and a couple "SAVAGES" !!!! 1905 22 target rifle, model 1895 rifle,round barrel,the next looks like a Remington rolling block "Creedmore",then a Ballard, and a double barrel revolving caplock rifle, a double barrel shotgun,2 offhand target rifles, and a civil war musket.




I knew sooner or later i would run across a few savages !!!!!

Regarding the prizefight mentioned in above, Judge Roy Bean promoted that fight and put it on the sandbar on the Mexican side of the river to stymie the Texas Rangers. It was said he profited greatly. Also according to wiki, it was against the law in Texas to prize fight. Judge Roy has a historical marker in Langtry that mentions this fight. Google is your friend.

Whew, now I can take the rest of the the day off.

Steve, you did real good !! judge Roy Bean was quite the old critter,i wouldn't want to stand in fron of the "Hanging Judge" !!! Don

Anybody bored yet?

Not me. I sit here staring at the screen waiting for the next set of pictures!

Yeah, what the heck is Don doing with himself every day anyhow?

I'm at the moment heading off to get a hydraulic piston repacked in my old cat 235 scrap shear !! you would think cat equipment wouldn't wear out in just 34 years !!! i'll get some more pictures up tonight .

Should still be in warranty Don.

The Fitzsimmons listed as a participant in that fight........Was it the same Fitzsimmons that was employed by Colt as both a trick shooter and a G'smith? There is a "treatment" for certain of the Colt revolvers called a Fitz special--bobbed hammer, triggerguard cut even with the trigger, special sights, and a slickered up action. He was a large man with huge hands and I think he had one been a prize fighter in his early years.

That was a Fitz Special, by John Henry Fitzgerald performed on Colt revolvers.

Very nice.. I need to catch up on this one.. Thanks..

There's a Wikipedia write-up on No. 3 in the front line, though I'm sure he's known well enough in the state of Texas.

I had to read that twice. Thought you were referring to Don.

Here are a few more, a Frank Wesson no.2 long or mid range rifle,and a Remington mid-range rolling block target rifle.





Here are a couple pictures of some unknown single shot action,kind of resembles John Brownings 1878 single shot,makbe a prototype.





Maybe some will know what it is ,or what the sight is off.

According to Wikipedia, boxing was outlawed in Texas at the time. Go figure, boxing illegal in Texas?

Just outstanding.. Thank you very much...

Heres a bunch of percussion target rifles,offhand and bench models. I wish more of these had captions .




Here are a couple more unknown target rifles,they both have false muzzles.



the upper one is some sort of breechloader,looks similar to the wesson rifle.

Don
the first accu trigger?

Both of the actions resemble a hammered borchardt?

About the time sharps went out?

Soo you are saying some of the early Borcharts had hammers? I know most were hammerless,but ive never held a Borchart in my grubby paws ! Heres something a bit different a Smith & Wesson 22 magnum ,engraved by A.A.White !!

No Borchardts I am aware of had a hammer, the action resembles a borchardt

The trigger is very interesting, one of the worst parts of the original borchardt.

Gawd these are gorgeous!! Is anything handmade anymore??

There are some beautiful handmade rifles out there,at a high cost !!!! you know you get what you pay for!!!! Heres one more mixed photo. I loaned out the Shiff collection to a handi -capped friend of mine,who is recouperating to look at so this will be the last photo for a while.



The top one is a high grade Stevens target rifle. the next one is an unknown target pistol, then a Winchester 1885 Hi-wall target rifle, then a Remington rolling block target pistol,another Winchester 1885 Hi-wall target rifle, Then what i believe is a Savage model 19 something ?22 target rifle im sure you savage rimfire experts know what model it is !!!!! next is a Remington model 30 rifle,then a Winchester model 1905 in 351 caliber ,a lot of prisons used these as guard guns, and then some Smith and Colt revolvers. Thats all for now folks !!!!! Don

I do believe the Savage is a Model 19-33. The Remington 30 is interesting as you just don't come across them too much. When was the picture taken. The Model 30 looks like it had a M1 Carbine sight, or something like one, installed on the rear bridge of the receiver. Pardon me but I'm a little awash in the sea of forearms photos you got going on here. Were all of these from Shiffs or did I miss something here?

Ok guys, I'll confess. Those pics are of my collection. (Brother, what I would give to be able to say those words honestly!)

Jeff, I'm no Savage rimfire expert but I too think it is a M19-33. Not the exact same forearm treatment as on my 19-33NRA (lacking barrel band and less bulbuous), but they were two distinct models no? Anyone? Buehler? Buehler?

Gary - it looks close to mine, though the pistol grip looks a bit beefier. My other thought was a 22 Hornet, which I think is a Model 19-33H - or something like that. But this one looks like a rimfire to me. Where's Mr. GeneB when you need him!

I've got 2 of those styles of 19's, one in 22LR and one in 22 Hornet. Very nice guns. Here's the 19H in 22 Hornet (somebody added some checkering to it, that's not standard).

Nice. I had a 23D until it got nabbed in a robbery. I'd like to find a 19H.

I hate thieves. I've got a 23D buried somewhere also.

I have a Savage 19 exactly like the one in the photo,minus the scope,just couldnt remember the hyphen and last number mines in a 22 rimfire.



its pretty obvious with the large forearm. actually guess i have 2 of them !!!

Every photo i have posted is out of the Shiff photo album ,except for this one.,i do not think every rifle was his,i think other people sent him pictures of guns they might consider selling to him.
I have no idea when any of these pictures were taken,there were no dates on any of them. I know Shiff died in the fall of 1952 so they are all before that.

The pictured Model 19-33 doe not look like it has a long enough magazine to be the Hornet version, but I looked at it several times and still an not sure. In my 'library' I found the first listing of the Model 19-33 in a April 1, 1933 Retail Price catalog, it also is the first I have with the "New 23-D Hornet" - no mention of a Hornet version of the 19-33 though, that first shows up in catalog No 67 (for which I do not have a dated price list).

Interesting note, in the April1, 1933 and August 12, 1933 retail price catalogs the Model is listed as the 19-33 and no mention of a Hornet version, all later catalogs drop the -33 and just call it the Model 19 (parts catalogs still used the -33 though). In catalog No 68 they start listing the Hornet version the 19-H and also have a 19-L which is a version equip with Lyman sights.

Keep the pictures coming.

If you ever open a museum, I'll surely make the drive up there to see it!

Thank you so much for sharing these pics.

Did any 19-33s have the barrel band? I thought not but now I wonder?

I don't see one black plastic stock in the place!

All pictures show the barrel band from the first in 1933 until catalog No 75 from about 1941~1942, catalog No 76 does not have the Model 19.

PS, as usual, I did not know most of this until I looked it up just before this post.

It will be a while before i get my photo albums back,i will post more then.I myself own 2 rifles with black plastic stocks,i bought them "JUST BECAUSE" !!!! I do have a model 23 D in 22 hornet along with a few 23B's and 23C's.

In my observations all of the 19-33s had barrel bands up to nearly the end of production. The last few years just had wide forearms to the terminus of the stock. I don't know when Savage made the change but I've always roughed it in as circa-WWII give or take a few years. I have a 19-33 and it looks much like the bottom rifle in Loggah's picture. It looked like the one above it until I found a Lyman 48Y. My 19-33 may be an early production gun as, in addition to the front scope block mount, it only has two factory drilled holes in the rear. I think later made guns had three holes drilled in the back to accommodate both the Nos. 10 and 15 sights. We need a compendium of Logggah's and GeneB's knowledge!

more please!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Correct. The 19-33 had a barrel band till around 60300 range. As far as I know the later version without the band was not shown in the catalogs. Production appears to have been in the 40's. Production went into at least the 67xxx range.