As a collector, Would you rather have a Winchester in .33 or 32 Winchester or a Savage in 303, please explain why. Seems to me that the Winny's in winchester calibers aren't go for so cheap anymore, why has the 303 gotten such a bad name? Les
Only bad rep I've ever heard on the 303 Savage is that it's impossible to find ammo/brass. The fact that only one mfr. made rifles in the caliber didn't help it either..
Which one I'd take would depend on the specific models involved.. looking at generic rifles, I'd take the Savage 303.
Les
You Know My Opinion Already.
Winchesters are Fine Rifles. But Winni's are for Whinners. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Savage's are Save for Age's! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Where has the 303 Gotten a Bad Name??? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
You and I and Other Know their are A Few who do not Care for Them. "The Father" "Parson" who recently Blessed Ya <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
And Every Body is On this Kick of Hard to Find Ammo Etc,
Afraid of reforming Brass Etc for the 303. Savage.
As far as Quality I prefer a Savage any Day against a Rattle trap Winchester.
The 33 and 32 Winchester I have Seen are Worse than Some so Called Rat Savages that are Being Auctioned Of Latley, and the Ammo is also not around readily Availble.
Savage Have a Bad Name?? Doubt It! For I see More and More Newbie's tryin to get one,or others that have Winchesters,Rugers,Marlins' etc Etc Own a Savage or 2 Also.
I would Prefer a Marlin over A Winchester.
But My 1st Choice and still always will be SAVAGE since 1974 Was My 1st, and Now 178 In the Vault.
And Heck as I said on the Other "Site" with Ammo
got 2,000 Rnds.
And Still Reform, 30-30,30-40 Craig and Orginal, and Norma, and Bertrum. And Still waiting for that "307"!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
I really Think the Big Problem is No One is Writing About the Savage 99"s and Seeing them as New in Shops etc, But You'll always See something On Winchester, or See a New one in the Shop's.
And Now Every-one is on this Kick When Winchester Said they Going to Stop.
SAVAGE's are Still Number 1 in My Book and I think every-one should Own at Least 2 Or More.
Steve
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
I hear what your laying down, That is why i really don't understand Jed and Laurens distaste for the 303 or 22 HP. If they looked at it like some of the Winny collectors, I think they would feel different. Les
I'd like to have a .303 Savage, Les, but then again, I'd like to have any 99. Regarding Winnies, I traded the Win88 I got last spring to a guy who had a 99F for sale. I was so happy when he went along with the trade. I also just missed out on a .303 savage a few months back. The dealer said it was in excellent shape, he couldn't tell me what model it was but someone grabbed it. Well, I'll just wait my time.....
Get it, you'll enjoy it. Les
Oh Yeah Les!
Forgot 1 Thing.
Every body wants to Play "John Wayne" ( Idorado) <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
Steve
Screw that, I want to be the Mad Trapper(Charles Bronson)!
Les
I sent Jed a Box Of 303 for the Fest as Door Prizes! I thinks he May Use It On His??? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> And I'Ll bet He Has a Closet Full Of Them!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
But Never the Less, Everone Has Something to Say About Something. And Were all Opinionated in Some sort Or another.
Me I Like all Savage's Calibors etc No Matter what year, Model etc. It's Like Getting it the 1st Time. When ya was Young!
But Some Like Pre War sme lik "F"'s or G"'s Or what Ever.
Me I'd Settle for Model "T" with a Compass on It! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
Steve
Savage....but,
if it was between a Savage "303" and a Remington Model 14 "carbine" in 35 Rem cal in great condition then ....
(Sorry guys, but I just like that rifle) I have it in 32 and they got it right for a pump. The 7600 is not an upgrade to the Model 14/141
IMO, it's a matter of supply and demand. Ten years ago, I could pick up a mint 86 winny for $900 in 33,now their 2500. Many, many more winny collectors than savage. I'm an old winny collector who has become a savage collector and I'm hooked. I like the action and accuracy of a savage much better. Plus I like the idea of all the serial numbers on the savage; parts can not as easily be switched around and messed with. Doug
Les, the 33 WCF in the Winchester 1886 is something of an outcast to Winchester collectors because it represents the late production 86's. By 1903 Winchester had sold 130, 000 86's, in at least nine black powder calibers with just about any special order feature the customer wanted. The 33WCF was introduced in 1903 and in the next 25 years only 30, 000 were sold. Most of these were 33's and 45-70's in the standard lightweight takedown version. The 86 was out of fashion and not selling well agiainst the Win 95 and bolt rifles with pointy bullets. When you hear '33 Winchester' you picture a lightweight takedown 86 and collectors think 'common and ordinary'. Not nearly as interesting as the early 86's, but probably a better hunting rifle.
The 32 Special and 30-30 is about the same thing in the model 94.
Collectors don't yearn for the common and ordinary examples, they want something special. The 303 is the most common Savage 99 so it's the least desirable caliber.
Anyhow, that's my opinion.
Yeah that was a Super Movie.
And the one with Robert Duval It's A Western
Early 1900's Sometime and He has a Savage Lever with an Elpaso Scope-Stith Mount.
Frogot the Movie Name.
Steve
Clint Eastwood was in it too. the name escapes me. Les
I understand that, but look at the prices of even the 33 's, it is kind of insane. Drives me batty. Les
I just got a new Graf catalog and I think I remember seeing .303 Savage brass for sale. Thanks...Bill.
Yeah, ain't it great! I hope the price never backs down a single penny cause I've got a lot (for me) bet on that premise.
And Hillary Never! Forever!
Well I Just Picked Up New Graf and Betrum for 35.00 Per Hunred.
So it's Reloading Time for Me 1,000 Rnds
Should Last Me a While.
Hey LES and Steve!
Joe Kidd!
still looking for my first 303 savage
Jerry
Jerry
What ya Mean? Ya done Lost it? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
What ya Lookin for??? There some on Auction, and I Might Part with 1.
Steve
Les,
For me its the .303 SAV, all the way.
Why? Same as you. I'm a freak! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Really, the reasons are manifold:
1. It is THE Savage caliber. All others are "others".
2. It's the only thing I can get an 1895 in. (Isn't it?)
3. As you have pointed out, it will do anything that needs doing.
These are the tangible reasons. Things I can back up with historical data or balistics. Then there are the intangibles. Class. Style. Sweetness. Almost feels like a woman in my hands. Almost! When I pick up my 1899H .303, I am the king of all I survey. I own a Steyr Scout, a 1903 Mannlicher 6.5 X 54, an 1895 Spanish Mauser Carbine 7 X 57. All very handy and perfectly adequate for whatever target presents itself. However, the H gets the nod unless I foresee busting through heavy brush or multiflora roses, etc. Even though its not 100%, its still very pretty and I'd like to keep it that way.
Someday I'll add an '86 winny to that list. Its a fine thing and I am a great admirer of John Browning (gasp!). But I've handled and carried an '86 in the past, and I'm quite sure the H will remain at the top of my carry list. It will ceratinly be the one that gets handed down. The others will probably finance my retirement. Including the winny.
Most of John Waynes rifles were md 1892s not 86s I like 86s but like savages more, i think the 303 is great, its bad rep got to be the ammmo brass thing Rakasan, like 303s he had 4- 5 at the fest, wish we would have shot the guns I wanted to shoot Jeds 303 with the ringed barrel jst to see how it would do. Just wasnt time to do everything.
People complain about the difficulty of finding, and price they have to pay to shoot their .303 - try finding .33 ammo to shoot! The comments about the .33 being an outcast among Win. 1886 collectors used to be very true, but that is changing a lot. A .33 that is all original and in high condition will bring a lot of interest (and dollars) now. However, it is still well behind what a similar conditioned gun in .4570, .45/90 etc. will bring. I know it is going to sound like heresy on this site, but I will take the .33 over the .303. But I will say that even though I have about a half dozen Win. 33's and two Marlin M1895 .33's, I do have more .303's than .33's. My fondness for the .33 has everything to do with my earliest childhood memories of deer hunting. The first deer rifle my Dad bought was a .33 and he thought it was a great gun. He used it many years and then his younger brother used it many years after that. Of course, even 50 years ago, ammunition was unavailable for it - and I recall that was an issue. I recall one deer season when my father heard my uncle shooting off a string of rounds with it - and he was none too happy! Also, I remember my Dad's older brother trying to buy the gun off of him for decades (unsuccessfully). I also remember when I was a small boy and had the measles and the mumps (at the same time!) the doctor came out to the house to see me and he spotted the gun in the gun rack and tried to buy it from my Dad (unsuccessfully). The family deer hunt memories are some of the best memories of my life - so I hope you will forgive my preference for the .33. And, is it any surprise that as an adult, I made sure I ended up with a good supply of .33's??
Let me add that if any of you guys have a M1886 (or Marlin M1895) .33 Winchester laying around, send it to me and I will send you a similar conditioned Savage M1899 or M99 .303.
Got a number of them laying around and i think i'll hang onto em.
But remember Don, you could trade them for Savage .303's - most guys on this site seem to feel it is a far better gun than a Winchester <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
Les, looking at it from a collectors point of view the winchesters will always have a larger following than savages. My estimation would be at least 50 to 1 maybe as many as 100 to 1. which leads to more demand and a larger return on your investment, which in no way represents what is the better built firearm.i would definately take a savage99-1899 in 303 over a 94-1894 winchester in 30-30 as a hunting rifle. as to the savage 1899 versus the 1886 winchester that is like comparing a tangerine to a grapefruit. Don
I can see that Don, still I understand people like Jed prefer the Savages with Winny cal's but why would the Savage in a Winny cal. be worth more than a Savage in a Savage cal., I know apples to oranges. But it really doesn't make sense to me. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> Les
Hi Les hope your feeling better, could it be that they made fewer guns in the win cals.? Here in Mich. when I was growing up most hunters had win 94s in 30-30, than seens like everone went to 3006 bolts or Rem. 742 740s ect. the richer had the sav.99s now they all want there short mags, but for a few of us that like the old ones. John
I am with ya John, but the area in MI that I grew up in was shotgun only, I remember seeing a lot of buck shot and Single barrel Sears cheapies. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> South western MI. I am feeling better, the swelling finally has started to drop, keyrist, I am happy I only have to do this once. Les
Swelling? Ya didn't stay in the recliner with the ice bag glued on did ya?? Ouch!... 21 years ago and I still can feel it!
For the 1st two days, yes, it was actually nice, the house 6 waiting on me hand and foot, day three, I couldn't take it anymore and had to get up and move around. Loaded up 150 rounds of 45 Colt. Something tells me I should have used my Lee hand press, <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> but noooooooo, I thought everything would be okay, Icepacks and Vicodin helped a lot. Les
Hey Cal : 40 odd yrs ago, I saw in some gun mag that a British Company (England??) had made a single-shot either in a bolt or a lever, Martini action, in a 303 Savage Cal. NOT in a .303 Brit. Still try to find info on it when I think about it. Any help be appreciated............ Thanks 99 LL
Really? Anybody here know of such a beast? I'd think somebody would have run across one before they way we search out anything and everything having to do with Savage or Savage 303..
Be surprised to see somebody do it 40 years ago.. was already "obsolete" by then. 80 years ago maybe.. Not ruling it out, but would be surprised.
I have one of each, a prewar 99F takedown in .303 and an 86 in .33WCF. Like 'em both and shoot 'em both. Ammo is not an issue for the .33 as much as it is for the .303 as it can be easily made by reforming and trimming .45-70 brass. My accuracy load derived from an old Lyman reloading manual is 43.0 gr. of IMR 4895 and a Hornady 200 gr. flat point bullet. Primer is Federal 210 Large Rifle. Start at 41.0 gr. and work up.
Doug
blitzen, just how easy is it to easily reform 45-70 brass to 33 ? Does it require a set of forming dies or intermediate dies or just run 45-70 through 33 winny dies full length? Got a Ruger #3 I have been thinking about having rebarreled to 33.
6mm, you do need intermediate dies. Redding has a 2 die set consisting of a form die and trim die. Sequence is as follows:
1. Run brass through form die. New unfired brass is
preferred since it is softer and easier to work.
2. Run brass through trim die which also functions as Form
#2. File off any excess brass and deburr.
3. Run brass through .33 Winchester F.L. sizing die.
WATCH THE NECK DIAMETER! IF INSUFFICIENT SPACE IS AVAILABLE IN YOUR CHAMBER TO ALLOW THE CASE NECKS TO OPEN UP AND RELEASE THE BULLET, VERY DANGEROUS PRESSURES CAN RESULT. ANY DIFFICULTY IN CHAMBERING IS A CAUTION FLAG!!
If possible compare the neck diameter measurements of a previously fired case from your chamber with those of a loaded round. The neck diameter of the FIRED case should be a minimum of .003" larger than the unfired one. If in doubt, consult a competent gunsmith.
Doug
Let's not forget that some Win. M86's weigh less than some Savage M99's. I know many guys here expressed the opinion that a Savage M99 fit them well and is such a nice handling rifle. I would say that compared to a standard M1886 Winchester with 26 inch barrel and full mag. and weighing in at 9.25 to 9.5 pounds - there is no comparision, the Savage is a clear winner on these counts. However, take a later Winchester M86 in .33 or .45/70 with a 22 inch barrel, shotgun butt, haf mag. and in the extralightweight variation - and you have a very fine handling gun that shoulders very well. And this was the variation that was in competion with the Savage M99 in the earlier part of the last century; not the antique style '86. As far as brass for the .33, there are several sources for it now and I wouldn't mess with forming my own. On the bigger game out there such as moose, elk, bear ... I would grab one of my .33's over one of my .303's any day. Just my opinion <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />