I get a magazine called "the backwoodsman" and it is a primitive / homesteader type magazine that is unique to best describe it. There is an ad for a custom knifemaker name Robert Hawk from Ferndale WA and you have to write him to get information. He makes a fixed blade drop point knife that is intriguing so I wrote him. The knife is about 3.75" long x 5/32 thick x 1.5" deep and had a dymo wood handle. He makes the blade from 0-1 tool steel, heat treats it, and "cryogenically treated" although he refers to "deep freeze" treatment in his literature.
He's a very low tech guy with no web site and he hand wrote his response to me. Nothing comes up on a google search.
The knife, sheath, and matching 25 degree sharpener block cost $120 + $8 S&H.
This is the first time I have checked out a custom knife and I want to know if anyone has seen these or if that steel is not the best. I am leary of the "cryogenically treating" if it is not done at a real cryo treater.
My current knife is an older buck vanguard (steel ? - early model)and wonder if this is much of an upgrade.

Opinions welcomed.

H

Can't speak for his work. I have never heard of him or seen any of his knives. As for 0-1 Tool steel its a fine steel for a blade. As for his heat treating you don't state a RC. As for cryo he could be using Liquid Nitrogen to accomplish this. I have several knives made by other guys that do use that method and I have never had a problem with any of the knives. All I could tell you is sight unseen $128 is not that much if the knife intriges you that much.

MCH,
Verbatim from his flyer:
"I grind form the blade. Using a proprietary process, the blade is heat treated to 60 - 65 rockwell hardness then placed in a deep freeze. This holds the sharpness of the blade longer."

I can only assume the hardness is on the rockwell C scale and hope he sends it out for cryotreating. The blade length is 3 3/4" x 1-1/2 so it is a touch short and stout, but it is intriging. I looked at the knives in cabelas during lunch hour and this one doesn't seem that expensive now.

H

60 to 65 is a large swing in hardness. A deep freeze can mean a lot of different things. using a baking pan and some liquid nitrogen could be considered a deep freeze. The size is a little long to my liking, I prefer a blade between 2-3/4 to 3 inches. However an extra 3/4 of an inch wouldn't kill me. Drop point is one of my favorites. Does he say if he tapers the tang or has a distall taper? I would assume at that price it would be a full tang.

Oh yeah I can't say I am sold on a blade needed to be cryo treated. As for the Rockwell Hardness I think in my opinion 65 in 0-1 tool steel is to much. 59-61 would be fine.

At that price you may want to contact MichiganRoadKill on here. He and I have been working on a knife design I think might fit your needs well. Ask him about the MCH blade.

oh...my head is getting dizzy from these new terms you are throwing out! This is telling me I need to do some homework.

I am for helping the little guy out who makes knives, but I hate to pay good money for a wrong product. Now is the time to pull my three fixed blade knives out and determine what I like and don't like about each and then contact Michiganroadkill. His work does look good from another post here.
Thanks.

H

65 for 01 is too much. Randall uses 01 for his carbon steel knives and they are about RC55. Most makers who use carbon steel, 01, L6, and a few others hold the hardness to about Rc55, some even a little less.

Cyro treating has to be at least -320 F. A deep freeze won't do it. I have heard of some people using dry ice, but that is only about -120 F, still not cold enough.

01 is a carbon steel, and to the best of my knowledge, would not benefit from Cyro quenching. Stainless steels, 440C, ATS 34, 154CM, BG42, are the ones that benefit from Cyro quenching.

If you are interested in one of his knives, ask him how he knows they are Rc60 to 65, and who does his heat treating, and how it is done. Cyro treating will not harm 01, but it probably does not benefit it, either.

Rc65 is getting into the area of milling cutters and lathe tool bits made from high speed steel. If you go to Rc65 with 01, it is going to be extremely brittle. I was not even aware that 01 could be taken to Rc65, but maybe it can.

01 is a great knife steel, probably one of the best, even in the era of the super steels that are available now, but the best steel available, improperly heat treated, is just about worthless.

13579,

I take it from the above post this guy does his own heat treating and so called cryo. I don't know for sure but assume that he is using liquid nitrogen in a baking pan to do what he calls cryo treating. I have several blades of 0-1 @ 59RC and never have had a problem with them. Then again I use them as they were intended to be used. A hunting skinning knife of around 3 inch blade lenght isn't made to pry open things. I like 0-1 but in my opinion A-1 is better when properly worked.

MCH:

"I take it from the above post this guy does his own heat treating and so called cryo."

That was my impression, also. The reason for my comments is there is heat treating, then there is heat treating. There is a difference in heating a piece of steel red hot with a welding torch and dropping it into a can of motor oil, and guessing it is about Rc65, as opposed to using a heat treating furnace with an accurate temperature guage on it, then tempering it using the same quality control.

Tell me more about the Cyro quenching with Liquid Nitrogen in a baking pan. I send my blades to Paul Bos, and the only Liquid Nitrogen I have ever seen was in tanks at doctor's offices, where they use it to remove skin cancer. I don't know what type of Liquid Nitrogen set up Paul uses, but I would think it would be something designed for the purpose.

Could you just pour it into a baking pan and put the blade in it? Looks like it would evaporate pretty fast.

He might use a heat treating furnace, have a Rockwell tester, and a commercial Cyro quenching set up, and do it right, or send his blades to a commercial heat treater. I don't know, but I would find out before I spent the money on a knife.

That is the reason I send my blades to Paul Bos. A proper heat treating set up is very expensive, and some of the super steels have to be heated in a controled atmosphere or vacuum furnace.

Yes put the blade or blades in the baking pan then pour the liquid nitrogen into the pan. It will evapotate pretty fast is correct.

If you can not control the heat level and time then you will not get a consistant and accurate heat treat. A torch isn't what I would consider heat treating but then again 90% of the blades I buy come from guys I know know what they are doing or like yourself send it off to be heat treated.

From what I have read, the blades have to soak in the liquid Nitrogen for about 24 hours, then allowed to warm up to room temperature very slowly. Wouldn't the liquid Nitrogen evaporate before the 24 hours were up, if you used a baking pan?

I think there is more to it than just dunking a blade in liquid Nitrogen, letting it soak for a minute or two, then taking it out.

Yes you have it correct. I am just saying what some makers do and try to pass off as cryo treating. Like you and I both agree on is that either way 0-1 doesn't need it or benefit from it.

Also you can soak if you have a canister that you could get the blades in and then seal so that it will not evaporate. Honestly I am not sold on cryo even on super steels. I think heat treated properly is all you need.

Interesting discussion on heat treating and cryo treating. I would suspect the guy is sending these out to a lab and doesn't have tight quality control. He could be dunking the knives and that wouldn't give the steel structure enough time to re-align since it doesn't happen as fast as heat treating when comparing to T-T-T diagrams.
Lead time is 4-5 weeks so he may subcontract a lot of this work too.

In the end, I got my three hunting knives out including a Kabar and a mora knife and determined this profile is not what I want. It is too deep and I want a slimmer profile for "coring" my whitetails. The guy does offer custom profiles, however my problem is I like to touch & feel products first.
How do other custom knife makers handle the situation where people want to "touch" products first?
H

"How do other custom knife makers handle the situation where people want to "touch" products first?"

About the only way practicable to do that is to set up at knife shows. I am leery about sending a knife to someone to 'see if I like it.' I've never been burnt, but I've come close.

I once loaned a knife to a person to test. It was a really nice knife, mirror polished 154 CM, a four inch clip point blade, tapered tang and an ivory Mircata handle that I had a ring neck pheasant in flight scrimshawed on, at considerable expense.

The idiot went on vacation to a beach and used the knife to dig clams in the sand. Needless to say, it was terribly scratched and dull.

He wanted to buy another knife, but not that one. I wouldn't sell him one of any type, at any price, and I have never spoken to him again.

To really find out if it suits your purpose is to use what you think would work for you, or one similiar.

Years ago, when I first started making knives, I designed one for my own use. I thought it was the perfect knife. It fit my hand perfectly and had a blade shape that seemed just perfect for field dressing. I was going to put it into production and get rich.

I still have it. Shortly afterward, I killed an antelope, and used the knife to field dress it. That was the most ungainly, clumsy, hard to control, hard to handle knife and uncomfortable to hold knife I have ever used.

That is the only time I have ever used it.

In my opinion, the Russell pattern is the best design ever thought up for using for field dressing and skinning. It is not all that attractive, and many people give them a glance and go on by, but use it and you quickly form a different opinion.

It works.

Which Russell design?

I would be interested in a picture of this. Is it the canadian belt knife pattern?
H

This is one I made using a stag handle. The blade is mirror polished. The discloration on the blade is from the flash.

It is slightly different from the Original Russell, as it does not have a thong hole.

Also, the concave grind goes up higher on the blade than it does on the original Russell.

Leaving off the thong hole and making a different grind was my idea. Whether or not it is an improvement over the original is open to question.

This is another that I think is a Russell design, or similiar. This one has stagged cow shin bone. Never used one of these, but it looks like it would be a good skinner.




This is an enlarged Russell. I made this one to be used as a camp/utility knife. Chopping and things like that. The scratces are from cutting roofing shingles. It worked for that, to, In addition to being hammered through a board that I could not get to with a saw. Dymondwood Handle scales. I sorta abused in on purpose, just to find out how good it would hold up under adverse conditions. So far, it has passed with flying colors. I would still have it if it wasn't for a thieving police officer.

One thing I dread when field dressing a deer is cutting around the anus to pull the gut through. One thing I had in mind when I made this knife was chopping through the pelvic bone instead of coring the rear end. Never got to use it for that. Thieving police officer came along first.

I have several Canadian belt knives. For what it's worth, Cold Steel has a good cheap model for about $15. I gave my son one for Christmas as a companion for his Master Hunter. Good luck.

Thats the one I was thinking of. Actually the Hawk knife has a similar handle shape with a wide drop point.
I think this would be a good coring knife due to the length and I use a sagan saw or wire saw to cut the pelvis now.
Nice knife you made!
H

I'd be put off for two reasons, anyone stating hardned to rc 60-65 doesn't have much control over their hardening, and more importantly is getting the blade too hard which will lead to you breaking the knife. RC 58-60 is about ideal for a knife that will hold an edge and not be too brittle. Once you get over rc 60, you have a brittle blade no matter what the steel. I'd venture to say he isn't anealing his blades after hardening, which he should be doing and is easily accomplished.

I'd hazard a guess that the guy is just starting out and making knives part time. That isn't a bad price for a custom blade, but you could probably get a factory knife that is better made for less money, or get a top notch custom, but you'd be looking at 2-3 times the cost. Similar to custom guns, there are many gunsmiths, but many of them produce work that won't even stack up to a factory rifle.

13579,

Not a bad looking knife you made there. What is the steel? What is the RC? and what is the blade lenght? I have a few belt knives of the same design and I like them a lot for a camp/general purpose knife. Again nice looking blade.

Oh yeah is it a tapered tang? I think that would be dam near a perfect blance if so.

It is a four inch blade, ATS 34, and 1/8 inches thick. I don't taper the tang on 1/8 thick steel.

Rc is about C60 or C61. I don't like to go harder than this. Makes then too brittle and difficult to sharpen, and they seem to stay sharp just as good.

I used to use 3/16 inch thick steel, or .211 (I think) when 154 CM was available, and tapered the tangs.

Although a lot of collectors have bought knives I made, I make them primarily to be used. In my opinion, for skinning, field dressing, and just plain ease of cutting, 1/8 thickness is better. Not quite as strong, but you are not supposed to pry deer and elk apart, anyway.

I haven't made many knives in the past few years, because of health reasons, but I seem to be getting a little better, now.

I might start back in a month or two.

What I thought about doing was making Russell designs, grinding, heat treating, and polishing them, and selling them to people who want to make a knife, but don't want to invest the time and money into learing knifemaking from the start. Something like a kit, but with a high quality blade as the basis.

I would make the Russell styles, or any other style someone might want, if I thought I could make it look okay. I am thinking S30V steel this time, at C59 to C60.

That sounds like a great plan to make do it yourself finishing knives in a high quaility blade. S30V would be a great steel to use and 59RC would be plenty.

Yeah I hate seeing guys misuse knives. There are knives made to pry and abuse a hunting or belt knife is not that knife. 3/16ths is too much for a hunting knife. 1/8 is perfect.

Only reason I asked if it was a tapered tang is because it looks like that would make it one hell a nicely balanced knife.

I think there is a market for well-designed blades with great steel.

I'll send you some patterns, just let me know when you're ready...

These two have tapered tangs. Desert Ironwood scales.

Actually the knife is a very well made knife. It is heavier tooling type steel but that's why it is called a working knife. If you read backwoodsman they just did a write up on the knife in the last issue. I don't think you could go wrong with it but I am very curious as to what the notch is for.

Hello If you are making the above designs Iam interested Thanks

Squidman:

If I start making blades for the buyer to finish, I won't be making any that requires a guard. It is just too much trouble to make and install the guard.

I might modify the above two styles so that they would work without a guard.

The notch is to provide a break-off point for the edge when sharpening the blade. I don't see as you actually need it, but I put it there anyway, unless I forget, as on the upper three knives.

In the images below, the knife with the Wart hog tusk doesn't have a guard. I might make some of that design, but without the bolster.

The one below it, with the stag scales might be another that could be made both attractive and functional without a guard, or maybe with an intregral guard like the one shown on the very bottom.

I still had that knife, until a thieving police officer took it a few months ago.

I agree the profile is more of a "working" knife than a gutting knife. At 1.5" wide, I feel it is too much for coring.

Which issue BWM was that? I saw a letter to the editor about it in one, but missed the article on the hawk knife.
The "notch" is for hooking the bail wire of cooking kettles while cooking over a fire or using it for "flint & steel".

H

I have one of Bob's knives and I really like it. It really is a "working" knife in the sense that it isn't "showroom pretty". It takes a razor edge and touches up pretty quickly. The grip seems to be laminated cocobolo and feels secure with or without gloves. The balance point on mine is about at the first rivet.
It comes with a pouch type sheath that holds the knife very securely. He also throws in a Smith Abrasives 2 sided sharpener that works pretty well for touch ups in the field.
He's a very polite guy who stands behind his work. I think the knife is well worth the price. Oh, and the notch serves two purposes: it can be used with a firesteel and also to lift the bail on a cooking pot.
I don't have a camera or I would have included some pictures

13579, I've concluded it is best if I select a proven knife form instead of attempting to come up with one of my own. Therefore I'll wait until you're ready to provide a Russel blank but I'm thinking a softer, easier to sharpen blade, from some less than exotic steel. I don't know if there would be a market for premium blade blanks in something other than the "designer" steels but am fairly certain a 52-55 hard blade would meet my needs and would be able to be sharpened in the field. I'll commit to a blade order as soon as you're ready.

I'm hoping your efforts to retrieve your stolen property is successful.

Boise:

In that hardness range, I would recommend L6. It is not stainless.

There might be something better now, but L6 was originally used for hand saw and cross cut saw blades, and the non-carbide toothed Skill saw blades and band saw blades, but I don't think they were quite that hard.

I might have mentioned this before, but I have a friend who made knives from the super steels for a wealthy collecter, who always took a variety of them to Africa. He said the skinners don't carry sharpening stones, but pickup up a stone off the ground to touch up the blade when it needs it.

He said the D2 blades and other hard blades, when they did get dull, the skinners were unable to sharpen them, and, for all practical purposes, were useless.

I recommended he make a blade from L6 in the hardness range you mention, and he did and the hunter took it to Africa. He claimed the skinners thought it was the best knife they had ever used.

Because the animals lived in a sandy and gritty enviorment, and some of them wallowed in mud were were coated with dried mud, even the hardest and best steel would dull quickly. The L6 blades did too, but the skinners were able to re-sharpen them on with a rock.

O1 would be another good one, also.