Can anyone give me a reference as to how good a steel 154CM is as compared to other expensive steels as D2, S30V, etc? What are its good/bad points?

This should answer just about any question you have on the various steels.

I have never used S30V, but I have used a lot of D2 and 154CM.

I have read that the CPM 154CM is some great stuff, but I have never tried it.

This is my opinion, but I do not like D2. It is a die steel, and as such, is unbelievably wear resistant. You could wear out several whet stones with a dull blade, and never get it very sharp.

Comparing it to 154 CM, my experience with it is that it doesn't hold an edge as well as 154 CM, and is much harder to sharpen.

In my experience, the rust resistance is about the same, although neither could be considered an all out stainless.

After all is said and done, the heat treating is what will be the most important. Properly done, I would prefer 154 CM, at about C61 over D2, and from some of the things I have read here and on other knife forums, some makers are lacking in their knowledge of heat treating.

This is a correction to the above post about D2 and 154CM steels.

My experience has been that D2 doesn't hold an edge as well as 154 CM, and that D2 is much harder to sharpen.

154 CPM is even better than sv30, but 154 CM is not quiet as good as SV30

What is the difference between those two, 154 CM and 154 CPM that is?

My experience is that properly heat treated D2 holds an edge considerably longer than 154CM. 154CM is easier to resharpen, all things equal, but D2 isn't terribly hard to sharpen with diamond hones. Soft whetstones are not up to the task for good D2.

Us I understand:
CM means Crucible Metallurgy
CPM means Crucible Powder Metallurgy

154 CPM has moly in it
http://www.knifekits.com/vcom/product_info.php?products_id=942

Only Buck makes a production knife from it that I know of, and it's supposed to be more corrosion resistant than SV30 (also a CPM steel) but holds the edge the same as SV30 maybe a tab better.

CM 154 is not as good as SV30.

Spot

CM is in reference to the company

CPM is in reference to the powdered metalurgy process.

ie: CPM 154 CM.

The CPM process gives smaller particles of chrome and tighter grain according to one of their sales reps.

Again, the differences in performance from one steel to the next of the high performance group with similar quality of heat treatment is not noticeable to most users. Many think they need an extra level of hardness, but then they can't sharpen them---if they ever use them enough to dull them or....
just my own comments here.
Protech Knives uses all 154CM except for its damascus blades.
Tim

MRK -

CPM 154 is a specific way of making CM 154. but they yeild MUCH different properties in the finished metal. Aka same chem properties with the Powder method being used to make sure the metals are distributed very, very evenly.

This should clear things up - from Crucible Metals itself.

http://www.rangeroriginal.com/CPM154.pdf

TAKE NOTE of the chart in the PDF it shows that SV30 has a better edge, but SV30 doesn't polish or grind well compared to CPM 154.

Again there is a HUGE differnce between CM & CPM in terms of the finished steel.

Spot


Spot

Thanks Spot.

Be sure you carefully consider the pics and charts shown.
Made sure the pics are of the exact materials you are discussing and make sure bar graphs start at zero for relative comparisons.

No doubt the CPM process provides an "improved" product. I personally don't see "HUGE" differences.

In my limited experience (I do not claim to be an expert) working with grinding, sharpening and using CPM 154 CM, 154 CM and CPM 3V---I don't see that much difference HANDS ON.

NOT looking for a fight or to stir the pot----just my own opinions.
This is still American and to each his own no matter how moot the point or differences as long a no harm is done.

To answer the original post----154 CM is a damned good blade steel. IMHO.

Tim

"Again, the differences in performance from one steel to the next of the high performance group with similar quality of heat treatment is not noticeable to most users. Many think they need an extra level of hardness, but then they can't sharpen them---if they ever use them enough to dull them or...."

I can agree 100% with that statement. My experience is based on making them, grinding them, sharpening them, testing them to the point of what many would consider abuse, cutting stuff with my blades that would normally be best left to hack saws and chain saws or concrete cutters, and cutting torches.

Hacking seasoned hickory wood axe handles, in addition to the use that will ruin even the finest edge in just a few seconds--using a knife for scraping the hickory axe handle, or scraping on your seasoned walnut gun stock, or for any scraping task.

The purpose of this harsh treatment was that I wanted to KNOW what my blades would do and withstand, not read about in some book or magazine article, and this testing is what I base my opinion on that 154CM is a better blade steel than D2.

My objective was to make a knife as good or better than knives costing many times as much, regardless of whose name was stamped or etched on the blade. The only way I could do that was to test them, so I would KNOW.

Not cosmetically as good or better than anyone else--I am not in that class, but I think I do pretty good, but best for the purpose of what a knife is to be used for.

I want to relate a little tale. I have my blades heat treated by Paul Bos, but before I heard of him, I used anyone that claimed they could do it.

I heard about a company that claimed to be experts at heat treating 154CM. I called them, and they were very convincing, so I sent a batch of blades to them. I still have pieces of some of these blades.

The first blade from the batch, I was buffing it on a high speed buffer. The cloth wheel grabbed the blade from my hand and slammed it onto the concrete floor of my shop, where it shattered like a piece of glass. This was not the first blade that I had ever had grabbed out of my hand--other knifemakers know exactly what I am talking about, but it was the first blade that I had ever had that shatted when it hit the floor.

After thinking for a moment or two, I got the other blades that had been heat treated by this company, about 15. I dropped and threw them on the concrete floor and about 10 of them shattered. Of the ones left, I threw them several times, letting them hit point first, flat, and every which way and bounce across the floor. These blades didn't break, so I finished them and sold them.

Of the ones that did break, there were a few pieces left large enough to make small blades for carving and leather work. I would't sell one of them. But I did grind an edge of some of the pieces and use them myself.

For all the hardness, whatever it was, if hardness was what caused the blades to break, these are undoubtablely the worst blades for edge holding that I have ever seen.

So, there is heat treating, and then there is heat treating.

That taught me that when I get a blade back from heat treating, I throw it onto the concrete floor, often several times. I have never had a properly heat treated blade break, but if it is going to break, I want it to be in my shop, and not while being used by someone who paid me a few hundred dollars for it.

Now, about the two piece knife that was brought back to me. It was originally a one piece knife, but it seems the person who bought it let his wife use it. The tree where she was going to put her tree stand had some nails in it, and the only tool she had to remove the nails was the knife.

My knives are pretty durable, but they are not up to prying nails from trees. I did replace it, because he had bought several knives from me, but I cautioned him about letting his wife use it. After I re-shaped it, it did make into a kind of cute short bladed knife.

RD - no prob.

MRK - It's a tricky subject, with a good amount of variables.

It took me a good long while to figure out what I did about CM vs. CPM so I didn't want it to get lost in the disucssion.

A good "knife" sharper (guy) can make 440 cut better and longer than a badly sharpened SV30. That being said a half decent sharpened SV30 or 154 CPM will out last a good edge on a 440.

I'm half decent a putting an edge on a blade and love it when they last through 3-7 deer and can still shave hair. Having steel that takes the edge and holds it just makes that more possible.

Spot

Jesus Christ, Himself, could send a bar of steel down from Heaven.
It'll only be as good as the heat treatment it gets.

I think that's Ingram's secret weapon.................

Funny thing is, he gets his heat treat done with and at the same place a few other makers do.

Like the trick move rifle, there's always a market

I guess I'm in the minority here, but I don't care for stainless steel knife blades at all. I much prefer a good carbon steel blade for serious cutting. Yeah, it takes a little more maintenance than stainless, but the advantages in edge-holding, toughness, and cutting ability more than makes up for it.

5160 or 52100 for me, please

01 and L6 also rank pretty high as the best in carbon steels.

My opinion is that chromium does not do anything to enhance edge holding. 154 CM, with 14% chrome, dones not have enough chrome in it for it to be considered stainless, but it is a little bit more rust resistant than carbon steels.

I think 154CM, with it's 14% carbon will come very close to the edge holding ability of carbon steels, and will also take a very sharp edge.

There is something to do with grain size, and a course grain steel will not get as sharp as a fine grain steel. I don't understand it very well, but as I understand it, grains will not sharpen, so the finer they are, the sharper the blade can the honed.

That might be why the CPM steels are considered to be better than the non-CPM steels.

Not to be an ass but just for the record it is CPM S30V not SV30.Sorry it was driving me crazy.Forget the 154 and go to the s30v or s60v.Both are way better steels.

dingdingding...we have a winner!

Just heared (word of mouth) that Crucible is in bandruptcy. If that is true, there will be a short feeding frenzy I suspect unless everything is locked up for now.
Tim

S30V is a definate step up in edge holding over 154CM/ATS 34.
But you are definately getting into diamond sharpener teritory. Not a problem and worth the effort.

Yeah, they filed Chapter 11 in early May. I heard about it at BLADE, but no one seemed panicked at the time. Don't know if they've pulled out yet. I'm rooting for them.

When did Gene go out-of-house? He used to post a lot on BF about heat treat and was really into it. I bought one of his first S30V blades, before he even offered it as a general option and we talked about the heat treat at length. But, I haven't spoken with him in a while - I'll do that soon...

Silicon Carbide for me, please...

follow with strop as needed.

Hope Crucible survives. I have a couple of 18" square sheets of 154CM, so good for now. Is any other company doing vanadium steels or the powered metal process????

I have a F�llkniven U2 folder with a powdered metal process blade (the unlikely name is "Super Gold Powder Steel").

I was waiting for it to get dull before I posted about it so that I could post about how it sharpened with my diamond stones. However, the blade has already stayed sharp well beyond my S30V and ATS34 blades. I have no idea of how long the edge will last but it must have cut 2 miles of cardboard by now and you can still cut yourself if you look too close!



and you can read about it here,

I was pretty skeptical that the blade would be noticeably better but it just stays sticky sharp after all that cutting and the edge has not chipped at all.

Not that it matters much since the edge could be touched up (I guess that they can be sharpened but have not had to yet!), but this was also the sharpest knife that I have ever purchased as well.

I have not seen any blades or blanks made from this steel available, but if anybody ever sees one it would be worth checking out...

John

Tim,

RWL 34 from Erasteel is a functional replacement for CPM 154 - it's PM and has 0.2ish% V.

We've discussed BG 42 before. It's from Timkin-Latrobe and while not PM it is double vacuum melted which makes it super clean. Has 1.2ish% V. Absolutely one of my favorites - My old Sebbie in this steel is my number one EDC ever.

I love the U2 as shown above - another of my favorite production knives. My kid and wife EDC them. I call it a Gerber LST on steroids. The steel is PM, from a Japanese company, but I haven't worked with it yet...