Has the never-ending obsession for Boone and Crockett bragging scores ruined deer hunting?

Seems far too many turn their noses down on anything they don’t perceive as shootable? What happened to simply enjoying time in the woods and taking a legal deer?

Nothing. Everybody I know that hunts does so to enjoy time in the woods and to try and fill the freezer. I don't know anybody that only hunts for the BS score. That being said, the amount of attention placed on score does not bode well for the sport.

Same here, my buddies and my family hunt for the hunt. We just enjoy hunting together or apart. I'm happy if I take a buck, a doe if I've got the appropriate tag. Now and then I'm happy as all get out if I take a buck that I consider "big." But that doesn't take much honestly. It's legal? It's a good shot opportunity? Okay, I'm in.

Regards, Guy

QDM definitely changed the way a lot of hunters hunt. I've never hunted to fill the freezer and sure as hell wouldn't shoot a buck during the rut or post rut for my freezer. I don't believe in killing a buck just because he's a buck or has large antlers. To me seeing 100+ different bucks in a season and a few from the previous years is what hunting is all about. IMO
I enjoy when we start doe hunting more than buck hunting, cause I know I'm going to kill something.

Not for me.

I may never kill another deer in my life. I'm OK with that. I KNOW I'll never kill a book buck. I refuse to go on guided trips for whitetail.

I would be sad if I couldn't ever deer hunt again tho. I like time at camp, wood smoke, putting with stands, bourbon over cribbage and pasties warmed up on the woodstove.

Sluicing a deer is just frosting on a pretty big slice of cake.

I pass on decent legal bucks cause I want to hunt the whole season looking for a stud while having fun hunting. I wish I lived in Africa.

Prolly for the urban hunters.

For myself, i like to shoot deer.

All sizes.

Put a few in the freezer.

For me it’s the whole process i enjoy the most.

Planting food plots. Putting up stands. Cameras.

The fellowhip among friends.

Not for me, I don’t hunt anywhere that will produce a big time buck. I like watching it get daylight in the morning.

Deer hunting yes. For me no. I pay no attention to it.

May have 'ruined' it insofar as private access is harder, trending towards leasing / pay to play, etc...

If caring what other people think about what you shoot ruins it for you, well, thats on you.

Hunting isn’t about inches, but several states are trying to make it that way….

Not deer, but my brother and his circle of elk fanatics live for the tape measure.

They all have their 300 class elk on the wall, so now only a 330 class will do. Whatever it takes.

Warms an outfitter's heart...

I chased score for a while. However, to me it’s more about the moment being right. I’ve killed some big deer and I’m partial to big frames and mass. That is frequently incompatible with B&C scores. On my own place, even with 200 acres and 17 acres of plots, our poor soils will never produce more than 140s deer. I’m cool with that and focus on only shooting deer that are at least 41/2. To me a perfect season is harvesting the 3 does I’m allowed, and an older buck, all on the last day of the respective seasons. It’s about watching wildlife in a beautiful setting.

Chasing score has put a monetary value on hunting, which drawls greed and marketing , which drawls more money which drawls more monetary value , which ................ well I think you get the point. The long story short money ruins most hunting for the traditional sport and makes it into a nascar of the outdoors, until it gets so backwards that no one either can afford it or get disgusted by what it has become.......The thought of paying to shoot a deer out of a blind or stand is unfathomable to me.

For me hunting is about spending time with family and enjoying the outdoors. If I fill the freezer that’s just a bonus.

Yes sir and it's the wrong message. I'm in the kill what makes you happy camp.

B&C hasn’t been as hard on access as social media posting has been.

Take the deer that makes you happy. I don’t let others influence when I’m filling my tag, that’s my decision.

^^^^This^^^^

I get just as much excitement shooting a doe as a nice Buck.

Ain't up to me to criticize another man's motives to hunt, or how much he can afford to spend in pursuit of his goals....but I will remark that it has narrowed places to hunt for those of us sheltered by T 111 and aluminum siding. Ranchers that used to welcome us dirty necks now look at us suspiciously if we pause on the county road to glass 'their' elk or deer.

Look at some of the slot limits on fish that states have imposed. They'll never be a world record snook or red fish caught in Florida.

When this topic comes up I always remember the words of one of my boyhood mentors. “Horns and balls. I never got a taste for either.”

If your gonna eat it, kill a doe. If it's a kid, an older hunter, or a first timer.....shoot away. But a lot of guys kill immature bucks to say they "killed a buck". Its a joke to see guys kill small bucks and then try to pass them off as a "management buck" like they did something noble by killing a dink. Tv personalities are just as bad. Need a kill for the show so pass it off as herd management. Bull crap.

I also see guys gripe about hard to draw tags out west, gripe there are no mature bucks, then post pics of a 2 year old "last day" buck..... It is not a crime to NOT FILL a tag. Even on a trip you have several thousands of dollars in. If you can't go home empty handed....stay home.

If you gotta shoot something, even if it's small, think your owed an animal cuz you spent money and vacation time, just to prove to others your a "hunter.........just stay home.

Be a man, be a real steward for wildlife, hunt for your own approval and don't try to impress others by killing "something".

You owe it to any animal who's life you take.

I can shoot 2 whitetails with antlers and about as many antlerless whitetails as I want to buy tags for in Nebraska. I only shoot 2 kinds of buck, those that appear to have a genetic defect and those that have larger or more interesting antlers than any that I've previously tagged. I can be more casual than some 'cause my lease has good access to water, food, and cover that holds deer year 'round and from time to time one that interests me will wander by when I'm there. The way that I look at it is that as long as a buck is alive, it has the potential to be a trophy to be proud of. If it gets tagged because it is a legal deer, it will never be anything more than it was when it was killed. I grew up in a place where deer are few and far between, so a person didn't have as much latitude as I have now.

If I want venison, I'll shoot a few does. I gave the four does that I shot in November to Hunters Helping the Hungry.

EDIT: Actually, I prefer to hunt fox squirrels, as they present a similar challenge, they are more numerous, and they are easier/lighter to get out of the woods.

I love this. 😀

I don’t much care about inches but do prefer to shoot whitetails older than 3 years old. If I don’t see an antlered buck that makes my socks go up and down, I’ll just shoot a doe or three.

I tend to tune out hunters that are eaten up with inches.

Sad but true.

Best post of the thread. You want to fill the freezer shoot a at wt doe, or get a cow elk tag. They are not hard to come by. My boys and I love to hunt big mule deer. Public land. We often don't fill the tag, but we never shoot small ones. Big public land mule deer are very hard to come by. A big reason why is hunters killing most of the younger age class deer. Not a big feat. We killed 1 buck this fall. My youngest boy killed a 10 year old buck. ( aged by a biologist) Past his prime to be sure, but what a cool deer. Deer have to get to 5 years old to reach their prime. Most hunters never think about that. I am not hung up on bc score, but I do like hunt older age class deer, and am not interested to shoot a buck just to say I did it.

Shoot what makes you happy.

Personally, I hunt for neither inches nor meat. I hunt for the sport, a sometimes forgotten American past time of enjoying the outdoors and nature.

I've seen posters on this forum proclaim, "I don't shoot anything I don't eat." Really? I shoot a lot of coyotes, and have yet to sit down to a bowl of 'yote stew.

Deer hunting, more often than not, isn't a level playing field. A 2-week a year public land hunter may be happy with just a buck, any buck. On the other hand, I know an acquaintance who inherited 600 acres in SE Kansas which he intensely manages for trophy antler production.
Weeks before season he's studied game cam pics from around his food plots and feeding stations deciding which buck he is going to shoot this year. When season rolls around it's a foregone conclusion, now merely a matter of sitting in one of his many elevated stands waiting to take the shot.

He shoots bucks that most will never see in a lifetime of hunting. His "whitetail crib's" trophy wall is impressive, for sure, but is his any more a feat than the public land hunter who manages to consistently score on a "nice buck"?

To Dixie Rebel's specific question, "Has B.C. score obsession ruined deer hunting?" No, not in my opinion. It has added another element to it, I suppose. I like seeing big bucks, talking score, and having something to measure against. In Maine, and much of the NE, it's body size versus rack score.

I know some "trophy hunters" who are phenomenal deer hunters, and go year after year passing on bucks waiting for the "one."
And I say, God bless 'em. I envy their passion, dedication and commitment to their sport.

Sure, I pass up my share of bucks too, but I also remind myself now and again, this is supposed to be fun. And for me, part of the "fun" and "sport" is shooting a buck.

I call it the Bass tournament syndrome. Yes, it has affected the hunting. In my area, there are antler restrictions, so some Davey Crockett can get a big buck, I guess. My wife, who I hunt with, moves very poorly in the woods, and we are EXTREMELY limited in where we can go. She would like to get a buck, but I haven't seen a legal one, in season, in the 7 years we have been hunting together. In my opinion, being able to whack any buck would be a huge advantage.

Yep, you're one of the dispshitts everyone is talking about.

And I would too, but believe it or not, some us don't see doe by gross. I

Mr. Skeen pretty well summed up the situation in Kansas. TV shows with idiots pumping arms and hollering and high giving each other haven't helped this area either.

Have seen it more than once, someone is happy with their trophy until the tape measure comes out.

I understand that – I hunt in places like that too but I also do a fair bit of traveling to chase deer. There's no one-size-fits-all to any of this.

It's evident from your post you never hunted when all you could kill was a buck....when a doe deer was taboo....when a buck was hard to come by....long before feeders and game cameras.

Mature bucks is what I'm after, scores are a secondary consideration.

We simply hunt whats best for the herd these days.

Along with that comes a few nice ones. While I despise what record books have done to the sport, they have also done a bit of good. And yes we put the tape to a few now and then just out of curiosity.. Used to have no clue what it took to get to 170. Now we do.. And we know we hunt an area where lots of bucks get old and never get past 130ish.

I suppose if the books as broken up into counties it might be a bit more relevant. But really don't care. Entered one animal in a book once was kinda talked into it.. Exotics book way back, not ROE. DOn't even remember. But because it was a nilgai with a handgun. Then noticed that all of a sudden there was a craze in the area with handguns. It was then simply pay enough and you can surpass.

I'm not mad at that. But it does show that the books are relevant only to animal size and not how hard or expensive an animal was. I think thats what the founders had in mind actually. But they simply wouldn't have believed today.

I think the books should change to recognizing the animal and where its from. But never ever mention the hunters name or lease or outfitter etc....

Its a friggin book.
Can use the established scoring system or not.
You dont have to enter your deer.

My only issue is guys blasting 100" deer complaining how they never get a big one.

Not a problem w them shooting smaller bucks.
Just their bitchin about it.

Fill your tag legal, and its all good.

I am all about herd management. We limit what bucks can be taken on our land, not because we are obsessed with what it will score, but because that is what is good for our herd. We plant a lot of food. We also do supplemental feeding. We shoot a lot of does and predators.
What we are left with on our 800 acres is a very healthy deer population, great fawn recruitment, and as a bonus, big bucks (both body and antler).
All that being said the best deer we took off the property this year was an 8 year old 6-point, that probably won’t even break 100 inches. But he was super smart, and extremely hard to kill. We have been trying for 3 years to kill him. Had to completely change the approach and method (we are a bow hunting only group and this one was taken with a flintlock in the last season), but we got it done and everyone was super happy.

I am just back from a weekend whitetail hunt here in the Texas Hill Country with my three sons. Nice ranch, high rack spot and stalk hunting, simple but comfortable accommodations, we cooked our own meals and just had a great time. Eight does in the ice chests. It will become an annual event.

Yes the big antlers or bust, QDM, only want to kill a mature buck craze has negatively affected the sport and in a big way. It has caused MUCH land to be posted and off limits to most outside of family or friends. Folks are scared somebody might shoot "their" big buck they've fed and nurtured and passed up and watched on their game cams for years. It has brought the "pay to play" leasing system to every corner of the Country. Before all this shyt there was tons of unposted property here and it was generally understood that if it wasn't posted you could hunt it. There were more damn places to hunt than you knew what to do with. Now it's all posted up and/or leased out and the lease fees are just stupid. There are only half as many hunters now as there were when I started hunting back in the '70's and surveys have shown the biggest reason for hunters dropping out of the sport before their time is "lack of places to hunt". Thank you very much dick head trophy hunters. It would be nice to just go back to when deer hunting was just for fun, recreation and some venison in the freezer and any legal buck was a good one.

Interesting to see everyone’s perspective. It’s the trophy hunters fault, it’s the fault of the guy that shoots anything he or she sees. Heaven forbid a guy hunts different that you do, must call him names and pump your chest because you’re far superior. The division amongst hunters is doing far more damage to the sport than how we hunt. Hunting by all intents and purposes has become a money game, especially if chasing inches. There’s always been trophy hunters as well as guys that can’t stop themselves from shooting the first 2 year old they see. The worlds grown and unfortunately the space the animals live in has not. To say trophy hunters have ruined hunting is a HUGE stretch. Maybe slow down the name calling and understand we are all hunters and see each other’s side on how or why we hunt.

blackheart - it's not just the "dickhead trophy hunters" that have adversely affected land opportunities. Changes in land ownership and urban sprawl has impacted places to hunt as well.

Plenty of land in my neck of the woods is no longer owned by the generations that once owned it - corporate farms, investment opportunities etc. are now commonplace. Many of the common 20 and 40 acres parcels here have been purchased to put a home on and a lot of those folks weren't raised around hunters nor do they want the potential liability.

As well, what once was a proud heritage of hunting in our northwoods has turned quite sour due to lack of logging, predation and some bad winters. Many of those folks have given up hope and moved south for opportunity. That influx of hunters has put a strain on the small, private tracts as well. One can't blame landowners for limiting, denying access or even taking money so dad can hunt his kids and not be messed with.

We had 1.4 million licensed hunters in my State back in the late 60's - early '70's and 700,000 now. The number of hunters has halved. Huntable land has not. There was no such thing as a deer lease here back then and much unposted/private land open to hunting. Today it's all leased out and/or posted up. Trophy hunting/hunters did that.

There has been land development here too but not nearly enough to significantly affect the amount of huntable land, particularly when you figure in that hunter numbers are virtually half what they were in the '70's. I probably have asked permission to hunt on more tracts of private land than anybody here and am routinely told that it's already leased out to deer hunters. That virtually never happened 40 years ago. Trophy hunting is killing deer hunting and license sales here.

Money has changed a lot of things including hunting. What about general population in your area? Wild guess says it’s changed since the early 60’s as well. Add in the great work ethic that is shining today, people trying to make a dollar for everything. Leases everywhere to squeeze every dollar they can out of everything. Trophy or not. I remember a time not long ago people had open arms to come shoot pigs. Now its turned into a money game to most just the same. I don’t think they’re selling trophy pig hunts.

Human Population is about the same or a little lower in my County and the surrounding Counties here. Nobody would have paid to hunt here 40 years ago. The idea would have been laughable. I hunted in 4 different Counties this season as I routinely do. There are far fewer hunters in the woods everywhere than there were 40 years ago.

Just like elk, I shoot the first legal deer I see. I have a few sets of antlers up in the barn rafters that might make book, but I have never taped them.

This past season,78 years old, bad knees and back,worse lungs, solo hunt. I was wearing two knee braces,a back brace, and carried a small bottle of 02. I killed a small freak little buck on a solo hunt. I had to cut it in half to lift it into the truck bed. Even that was almost more than I could do. This was on private land and I was able to drive right up to it.

I value that buck as much as the big ones and it is lot better eating.



I have bigger bucks in my yard most days.

[img]https://i.imgur.com/NYAHHlF.jpg?1[/img]

Wildlife management experts claim all ages and classes have to be harvested to keep a healthy herd.

Perfect!

I am in this camp. Over the years I have killed some big racked and heavy bucks, not one was scored but several were weighed field dressed. Most of these deer reached maturity by avoiding humans, predators, vehicle traffic and did not contract EHD or CWD. The challenge and thrill for me is to locate them and place myself in a position with a bow or rifle to kill them.

There have been seasons that my efforts failed, but I thoroughly enjoyed the experience and education.

Scott, has summed up nicely what has happened to deer hunting in Wisconsin. My family deer camp in northern Wisconsin was sold and relocated to the farm country in the southern part of the state. For several years we had access to 3,000 acres of private land in addition to the farms we owned. That changed quickly with non-farmers buying up the land and putting up no trespass signs.

I would venture to say that it was most likely the general hunters who have done that. With increased liability and the fact that when given unlimited access to land, there are a lot of people who treat it 1) like theirs and start altercations with others over hunting "their" spot, or 2) leaving all sorts of trash, shooting up buildings, cutting trees, destroying crops, etc., a lot more landowners are going to leasing the property so that they can pass that liability to a person or groups of people that they actually know.
If you don't believe me, spend some time on state game lands in your state and tell me that I am wrong. That is the main reason I have the land that I own out of state leased. I know they are going to take care of my land much better than a pack of randos.

It's only ruined it for those that think that way.
Very interesting that some will put a person down for shooting a young buck or female deer but congratulate someone for shooting a small moose .
It makes no sense but that is just how some hunters think.
I never did perscribe to the B.&C. Philosophy or style of hunting , I enjoy hunting, period.
Cat

True

It is nice when people who own land allow strangers to trespass, but if they don't, that is one of the prerogatives of property ownership.

I lease trespassing rights on a farm about 30 miles from home because it is good ground, it is close, and the lease isn't very expensive. If I didn't have this lease, I probably wouldn't hunt very much because our farms are around 100 miles from home, too far to drive for a casual hunter like me.

There is no increased liability here as by law land owners can't be held liable for injury or death to a hunter who has been granted permission to hunt. Both my uncle and grandfather owned farms here from the 1940's to their deaths in the early 2000's and neither had much trouble from hunters in all those years despite the fact that neither ever posted their land and allowed anyone to hunt. A hunter did leave a gate open and some heifers got out once but that's about it. I have hunted State game lands here every season for 45 years and have had no great problems with it.

It's mostly non resident land owners from the city who are not hunters themselves that have granted me permission to hunt around here in recent years. The farmers mostly either hunt it themselves or lease it out to money bag trophy hunters. Back before trophy hunting became the rage, most farmers either didn't post or would grant permission as they considered deer crop eating pests. I actually had farmers tell me to kill all I could as the fewer there were, the fewer they had to feed. Now of course they know trophy hunters will pay big bucks to hunt so they no longer consider deer a pest. The trophy hunting rage did that.

Well said. My quest ended yesterday, and I did not pull the trigger on a buck all year long. Got to help 3 of my buddies do it, which was loads of fun too though. Love the challenge of an old, ripe, elusive buck.

After being around the 'fire for going on 20 years and "getting to know" loads of people, if I were a landowner there's no way in hades I'd let just anyone hunt without permission. Too many freaking idiots running around these days.

CWD is about to change all that....

There were idiots running around 40 plus years ago....

As long as someone’s motivations are in positive support of our collective pastime and they represent themselves in a manner that doesn’t diminish the honor of the animal taken - I’m ok with whatever anyone wants to use as a yardstick for their success. Different strokes - just don’t be a d*ick is my rule.

i worked hard as a lineman all my life tell i retired and during those years i worked i was able to purchase some land for my small family to hunt deer on and no one else can hunt on my property, it cost money to own land i take care of the deer on my land with minerals ,food plots . we also don`t kill every deer, the kids and lady`s can shoot any deer they want . us the guys hold out for a bigger buck we don`t always get a nice buck and that`s ok . if you don`t want to own your land or lease some land then hunt that land or hunt with the mob of hunters nothing is free in the world anymore. you guys sound like another race who want every thing for free well get over it is not free anymore ! you get what you worked for mostly or begged for

Michigan deer don’t have time to get that big. Around here anyway!

I enjoy watching deer
However seeing nothing but slicks or basket racks is boring.

Have hunted excellent ground, for about 20 yrs. Was sold and then hunted state ground, which sucked, and then got a small chunk of private.

Decent deer xome through once in a while, 140 to 160 class.

But usually at night.

And they may not show but once or twice on camera all season.

You can do everything right and not see em. Or much of anything.

Of course somebody could flub it and blow em out of the patch half a mile away and they run into your lap.

Small parcel patchwork places are just luck.

Im thinking camper to hunt bigger state ground farther away.

Sitting in a little patch over and over bores the hell out of me.

Its a lot more interesting if something big is around
Or at least the chance of such.

Im not against filling my freezer w store bought meat.
I dont have to kill anything.

Blasting meat deer aint my thing no mo.
Done it, rather let somebody else do it.

Alas nobody in my fam hunts but me.

Not a trophy hunter, have eaten a bunch of deer under 120".
Theyre tasty.

But a buck like that now is just a regular ol deer and not worth putting a hole in. For me anyway.

Let him grow. If somebody else pops him, good for them.

Several deer hunters in my circle, and I'm not aware of any with a B&C head.

I work w some guys obsessed w scores.
Some have food plots, feeders, and shoot houses.
Usually have that stuff set up on family land.
And that is fine.

But most of them acts like they wrote THE book on deer management and are THE best hunter on the planet.

Outside of hunting theyre dweebs.

Go figure.

Know some cool folks that work hard and kill good deer.
They kinda lay low

Id like a B&C whitetail.
Doubt I ever get a crack at one.

Have a mid 160s on the wall.
Good enough for me.

Be satisfied w a P&Y.
Like that to be w stickbow.

Do that and I wont care about much else.

May never happen. Oh well.

Gun, might be happy w a 140" now and then.

Didn't even see an antler this past season and only a couple the yr before.

Definitely not good seasons.

Which is precisely my point. As you said and a few others as well, if you don't see a buck that horns you up you will shoot a few doe. That seems to be the answer to a lot of people that say there should be antler restrictions.

It's nice that some people travel, it's nice that some people see herds of doe in a field. I just don't like those people trying to dictate what I can and can not shoot.

As you said, one size does not fit all. I'm just sick and tired of people trying to change the rules, based on antler size. I'm happy if people go years without shooting a buck, but don't tell me I should be the same.

Exaclty

I know guys who get live videos of their feeders on their cell phones who will rush driving to hunt those spots.

But they will frown their nose down on someone who kills a legal 5 or 6 point.

I have no issue if they choose to do that. My problem is the attitude they have toward others as if “they” are real hunters and others aren’t.

If they were real hunters they'd have no need for feeders or game cams. Tell them to see what they can do on their feet, no tree stands, no blinds, still hunting or tracking on public land and then get back to you. Most of these guys say they only hunt mature bucks because they want the challenge. Then they buy or lease private ground, plant food plots and/or buy feed, hunt from stands with the finest rifles, optics, compound bows, range finders etc.. Bullshyt, I ain't buying it. If it's challenge they're after they could leave those fine scoped rifles, rangefinders and compound bows at home and head for hard hunted public ground with an iron sighted rifle, handgun or recurve bow. What they're after isn't challenge, it's those big antlers and the bragging rights that go with them, just as easily as they can get them.

Blackheart 👍

Always comes back to….


Who decides what a real hunter is?

myself > i just wanna be left alone and i will hunt when , how i hunt , with what i wanna hunt with and i could give a rats arse who thinks they are the greatest ,the best deer hunter with what they use to kill a deer with.rather they walk,or in a stand. scoring horns is B.S. too !

My two brothers and I hunt alot of state land in PA, MD,OH,IN. We've killed 9 or so bucks 140s-170s the past 5 years. that all said it's nice to kill big scoring deer, but more important to us is that he's mature. But we get just as excited killing does too. For us its about the memories spent with family in the woods will last longer and be more valued through life.

We all seem to be quite opinionated regarding how others spend their free time.... and often, local conditions dictate which techniques work and which don't

Perhaps, given today's political environment, we should be supporting each other, not criticizing.

I try to stay away from those guys. I dont mind it when one says 150 class, 130 class etc, but when they try to stretch out that extra 1/8in as in....it scored 134 and 5/8s. Dude....

But whatever makes you happy.

I couldn't care any less if a guy wants to sit in a tree stand, use cameras, hike in 73 miles, it's all good.

The only thing I do not like is those trying to change regulations to suit themselves. That I can not stand.

Point restrictions, bad. Doe before buck, bad. That kind of stuff.

Well said Scott

Another shill

a do agree ,just maybe someone will let the small ones pass ? i don`t need to fill a tag to be the man !

Another condescending prick. You are another prime example of the problem.

Do you eat the antlers or the meat?

The main problem I see with the scoring systems is this.

It took the challenge of man vs nature and turned into man vs man competition.

It is my tag to do with it what I please. I like antlers, but I like filled freezers even more. I pass up bucks, but sometimes I shoot "small" ones. I shoot does, and some times give them a pass. Whatever my mood and expectations are on any given day.

Amen

Being from Northern Minnesota and a boots on the ground hunter, it's always been about the hunt. To me, I judge by dressed weight more than anything. It's tough to judge antlers when you have a 3 second window to make your shot.I've had quite a few two day drags to get a buck out of the bush. Just my .02.

To me, the B&C scoring system is simply a matter of perspective, not all 8pts are the same, one my score 110, the other 140. If someone tells me they shot an 8pt, I have no idea what the buck may look like, if he tells me it scored 120 then I have a pretty good idea of what he's talking about. Other than that, I don't really care about B&C at all as I will never likely hunt in an are that will produce a buck that nets 170 and I really don't care.

This.

I highly doubt I'll ever kill one. But it's nice to use them as a measurement. "I shot an 8pt today. How big? 8 points?" Vs. "I shot a 135 8pt today."

Exactly. You should have the ability to make that decision yourself.

It has if you let it. I have no use for any scoring system though I was trained as an SCI scorer year back, I don't register my own hears and only scored some for practice and to get a feel for the system.
One opinion I gained was that any scoring system that penalizes irregular or uneven growth with their ultimate goal of achieving perfect symmetry from antler to antler is abhorrent to me. At least the SCI system scored every inch the animal grew and that is the way nature planned it. Other than that, so what, a nice head is a nice head and a representative head is always nice.

When I turn down a shot and mostly do, certainly more often than not, it is to let the animal live to grow older and bigger. but even more selfishly, so I can hunt longer. A couple of years back I had 3 whitetail buck within 25 yards sparing and I just watched. One was definitely a shooter but not that different to one I taken the year before. Now if he was a sambar..........

NICE & positive is the way to be not sooo negative ,ya its easy to be a keyboard tuff guy.

i think the hunting shows and "bone collector" mentality has changed deer hunting entirely in the past 25 or so years. people who would have never hunted before are now hunting and treating it like a football game. pretty much the opposite of me. but i'm a fudd who wears a stormy kromer so take that for what its worth.

Mike, the problem in the states that now have point restrictions or you have to "earn a buck" was that everyone was killing the first buck that they saw and leaving the does alone. That led to situations where you had a buck to doe ratio of 1:20, or worse. That is really bad for the herd. There are numerous studies from those areas that showed bucks would literally run themselves to death during the rut trying to breed all those does.
Point restrictions and "earn a buck" have nothing to do with having higher scoring deer. It is to get a better buck to doe ratio and to allow more mature bucks to be the main breeders as they are better equipped to make it through the rut and the winters that follow. When that happens the overall herd gets better. There is a reason that herd health across the country was better than it ever was until EHD and CWD start putting dents in it.

I'm not shooting any small bucks on my property, and rarely kill a buck anywhere I hunt. But if I'm hunting with a group and they want the meat I've been known to kill whatever comes by....as long as they're doing the cleaning. I enjoy the woods and do what I can to be a good steward of the land and wildlife. Frankly I don't give a damn what or how you hunt as long as you stay off my property.

How about a cheap scope, that be alright? I got old eyes.

A peep sight will fix you right up.

My experience is that the hardest part of consistently killing big bucks is having the privilege to hunt where there are big bucks. The second hardest part is patterning big bucks before they pattern me. It also helps if they are not dead before they are mature. I’d take access to good ground and limited human pressure over fancy gear every day of the year. On the subject of cameras, it’s humbling to not see so many of the mature bucks that I now know exist.

No doubt the more you have around the easier they are to get. Like with anything else, that reduces their value. I killed my first mature buck in 1981 on public land in an area with intense hunting pressure where 85% of the annual buck harvest was made up of 1.5 year olds.. Few bucks made it to 2.5 years and very few ever saw 3.5, which made my 4.5 year old a truly great trophy. I killed him at 25 yards with a 20 gauge slug fired from a High Standard Flite King pump shotgun. No scope, just a brass bead on it's vent ribbed barrel.

I pretty much buy whatever I need to give me an edge in the woods. And after killing my first buck 54 years ago, I've come to the conclusion that I'd rather be lucky than good when it comes to hunting mature bucks.

Exactly. Me too.

I can't say if B&C has ruined hunting, but the emphasis on rack size certainly diminished my enjoyment of a NE whitetail hunt this year.

Archery hunting a creek bed alongside an alfalfa field during the rut, I let several younger bucks pass in the morning. That evening, I watched a bunch of deer activity and after a very exciting, close-range encounter with a ~18" wide mainframe 4x4 with double brow tines on both sides (10 points total), I made a good shot on him. He ran to the fence line, paused, but made it onto the neighbor's before expiring. We asked for permission to retrieve him and were granted it with a request to send a picture. Neighbor said something to the effect that it was 'only' a 3 year-old deer, and that they prefer to let them grow to be 'wall-hangers.' Made me feel like some kind of a fence-sitting miscreant.

I was quite pleased with my experience and my 'trophy' (I love corn-fed venison and the satisfaction of scoring with a primitive weapon), and filling a $285 tag on my first day until that conversation. Then I began to second-guess my choice to shoot and how it would impact the relationship among landowners. Took the shine right off of everything.

p.s. I found a wounded doe on their side of the creek during the late season. Someone had brisketed her and broke a front leg. Guess if they don't have horns, they're not worth following up on...

My only problem is that other people, mainly in
other counties with different requirements, want
me to hunt the way they want to hunt themselves,
and lobby to get their idea of hunting instituted
for everyone else.

Just me, but hunt your own hunt and let me hunt mine
Don't worry about what thing I have in my hands,
or how far away my animal was when I took it,
or what my gear cost me. I don't take any " I love
myself a lot " photos, and I probably have a half a
dozen photos of myself with a dead animal for
all the decades I've hunted. Never had one mounted.
Don't really care how old they were when they hit
the ground. If I want it and it's legal and still has
spots, I'll take it and nobody's a$$ should be chapped
over it. Don't worry about the other guy if he's
not breaking the law. Like the song says, if you
mind your own business then you sho' won't be
minding mine
Good Luck

When I started deer hunting people were happy if they saw a deer during season. As the population increased people actually expected to kill something and you congratulated them whatever it was. Now there are enough deer to pick what you want to shoot. But people belittling someone for what they are excited to shoot Is wrong and arrogant.
If someone kills a basket racked buck and they are proud of it the proper response is That's a nice Buck.

Cool dude I knew, made his own TD recurve.
Hot box and did his own limbs too.
It wasnt the prettiest bow but it shot well, and he killed a button buck with it.

I thought that was neater n chit 😎

I do wonder if working harder for bigger bucks is worth it.
The guys popping average deer w buddies might be having more fun.

How does one go about measuring fun?

Fair chase deer taken cleanly, is good enough.

I don't worry about it at all anymore. I hunt to kill shyt, have fun and fill the freezer. Hunting on the move in thick woods I often don't know what a bucks headgear really looks like until I put hands on him and I don't care. I have enough horns on the walls, my dick is big enough and I've got nothing to prove or anybody to prove it to. That great trophy I spoke of in my previous post only scores about 140. He was a super trophy of a lifetime buck at the time and place he was killed but today in some places wouldn't be anything special. That's what I mean when I say the more of them you have around the less value they have.

Whitetail hunting, and muledeer hunting are two different games to be sure. In terms of muledeer, killing just a dink buck is not that hard. But once they reach 5 years of age, and have made it thru those previous hunting seasons, they are a completely different creature. They are extremely smart, and there aren't very many of them. That is why I like to hunt em. That's why I really don't care about just killing a younger buck for the sake of killing one. Again if you wish to fill the freezer, shoot a wt doe, or get a cow elk tag. I shot 2 wt does and no bucks this year, but as mentioned in my prior post, my youngest boy got a really cool, really old buck. It was awesome.

Amen brother. I've been hooked since 1971.

Yep.

I can remember when you were considered a good deer hunter if you killed any deer. Then as the deer population increased, and it became relatively easy to kill a deer, the big buck contests started up, and your hunting skill was often judged by how big a buck you killed. It does seem like everything today has to do with the B&C score. I do believe it has taken some of the fun out of hunting, not to mention the lengths that some hunters go to in order to impress their peers. A local hunter killed a nice buck this past season, but one side was much better than the other. He's paying the taxidermist extra to "fix" the smaller side in order to make the buck score what it would have if both sides had been matching. When he tells people about killing the deer, he always tells them the B&C score of what it will score after it's been fixed. That's what I call being obsessed.

Years ago whitetail huntng in PA was a religion almost.Schools were closed at least the first day of the season. It was considered a valid excuse if you missed school during deer season. If you did make it to school, most of the teachers had gone hunting.When you met someone during deer season, the usual greeting was "Did you get your deer yet?". It didn't matter,spike,10 point or doe. It was typical to drive down a road and see deer hanging in a tree out front of the house,aging. Now people sneer if you don't kill a monster. Last figure I heard, was that 6000,000 deer are killed each year in PA. not counting road kills.They sure as heck are not all B.C. bucks. A sad state of affairs for sure

It was like that here in NY back when I started too. Still is to a large degree as 55% of our annual buck harvest are just 1.5 years old and another 30% just 2.5 years old. No need to feel guilty if you shoot a 1.5 or 2.5 year old buck here. You've got plenty of company and hunters here have been fighting off antler restrictions for years because they want freedom of choice.

Personally, I feel that the divide between hunters, which is perfectly illustrated on this thread, is a bigger threat to deer hunting than B/C score obsession.
Just read through these comments....those wanting a certain management scheme and thinking it is bullshït if other hunters don't do it that way, etc, all because they feel what they want out of deer hunting or what they feel the management goals should be is more important than what someone else wants.

Carry on...

Again - B&C didn't ruin anything unless you let it ruin something for you.

Could give a sh.it about being in the book, if you're the same - ignore it.

The numbers are just that, numbers and as mentioned before referring to a buck as "1XX class" paints a little clearer picture than "8 pointer" for those that care. If you don't - ignore it.

Private access has value and large acreage has been parceled out for more than hunting purposes. If you want private, buy or lease (or beg). If you can't find it or afford it - hunt public. Nobody owes you private access. No one can take away your public access.

If the method you like is legal, go for it. If you like still hunting then fu.cking do it. If you like still hunting on private land but only have 40 acres, good luck. You'll soon adjust.

If your regs allow you to take does and you want to, fuc.king shoot does. Same for bucks. If its legal and makes you happy - shoot it. Just don't complain you don't ever run into a more mature age class of bucks. If you're neighbors don't like what you shoot tell them to kick rocks, or pout - your choice.

PERSONALLY - I'm long past the 'fill all tags' stage.

I've killed deer using archery equipment, centerfire rifles, shotguns with slugs, and muzzleloaders. I've killed deer on public and private. Killed deer from a bucket on the ground, blinds, tree stands, during drives, pushing points with another guy - you name it. Nothing to prove.

The FACT is, killing A deer is not that big a deal to me anymore. Its really not that hard to accomplish. Very rare for me to go out and not have the opportunity to take A deer if I choose - mostly I choose not to. I'm interested in killing mature bucks. I'm interested in them being well antlered - not real concerned with inches, but I have no need to shoot another basket rack in my lifetime. Have I fu.cked up and shot bucks coming through quick and wished I hadn't when I got a closer look on the ground? Big 10-4, but I strive not to do so these days.

If I shoot something I'll eat it - but I'm not interested in venison as a food staple. I'd be well ahead in both time and money to buy half a beef if all I cared about was the meat.

Well said, and really inarguable IMO.

I've reached a point in my life, and in my hunting career that I have no desire to shoot just any deer. I've been deer hunting since 1965, and I've saved the antlers from every buck I've ever killed. Some of them in the early days were what people today call "dinks", but I was sure proud of them. Over the years I've learned that I don't have to kill a deer in order for the season to be a success. I didn't kill one this past season, but I took my 14 year old granddaughter and she killed a buck, and that made my season a good one.

Now, I passed on some bucks that most people around here would have shot. Does that mean that I'm obsessed with the B&C score? No, it just means that they weren't what I called the kind I wanted. IMO the hunting shows on TV and the YouTube videos have turned a lot of deer hunters into antler obsessed fools.

Beyond the shadow of doubt in my sphere.
Ruined it from my old fashioned perspective.
Hurt it badly for the huge majority.



That, in combination with urban infiltration.

It has encouraged QDM,
which in turn has seriously decreased our herd. (CWD "control" too)

Herd is down.
People obsessed with horn, and or herd, no longer hunt like they did,
property owners suddenly want to post to protect "their" deer.
Farmers that used to complain that you hadn't come and hunted with
them, now won't allow hunting.
People are leasing ground to hunt.

The traditions are gone for various reasons. Some linked to this.
The style of hunting has changed hugely. Others hunt to not disturb
"their" deer. Those changes affect my hunting styles.


Ruined it?

No.

It still exists.
Life is about adapting. (But...😉)



The guys who have jumped into the $$$ income side sure can't
consider it ruined. Many are making money way beyond what
their traditional career qualifications would indicate.

Some, have acquired the fame and adoration many seek.

Ruined would indicate deer hunting is gone.
It's not.





PS.
One aspect that it has truly ruined is the appreciation of a nice buck
I was 10 when Dad killed a 10 point with a 20" spread.
Green
(Just mentioning that shows the impact of B&C)

We had people stopping by to see it. Word spread like wildfire.


Today, a similar buck would be met with,
"It's a nice buck. For around here"
That qualifier is sad.

WGAF what is killed in Alberta.
Or the fed and bred deer on so much "hunting property" today?
Fenced and open.

We have lost sight of the fact that hunting is local.
A nice buck is a big buck where it is.

Cross bows are the cancer of deer hunting in PA, a crazy long season running thru the whole rut is taking a huge toll on the mature deer that AR and HR was meant to protect !

While I would agree that the obsession with score is nuts, and overblown, I do find it helpful to note what a bucks general score is. Foreinstance, in mule deer circles a 170" deer is the base of where a " trophy" starts. So if someone says they saw, or killed a 170" deer, I have an idea of what they are talking about. This is not perfect either however, as some people either don't know ( or care) about score, or inflate the score to impress people. I saw a show on tv a year or so back where a guy shot a really nice mule deer, likely in the low180s. Beautiful deer. The problem was, that he kept telling everyone how he just shot a 200" buck. Now I have scored a lot of deer, and can get it pretty close, after a good look at a buck. That buck was no 200" buck, not even close. Same thing here once in a while. A while back a guy had pictures of a couple of bucks he had shot, along with what they scored. From a trophy aspect, one buck was decent, the other was pretty common. But the "score" that he gave each of them was at least 10"- 12" bigger than they actually were. It really makes no difference to me, but I wonder why he did that?

Agree with the OP, on social media sites now people are looked down on if shooting a 120" deer. I really dont care about the score as much as i try to only shoot mature deer. In my area a 140" deer is a stud, one that neighbors will stop to see it. I will do my part on laying down the does. Some years i dont even shoot a buck if i dont see any mature ones but thats my preference only and dont care what other people legally shoot.

I think you should hunt & kill what you want, when you want ,how you want to, that is legit in your place of the world . to much in fighting is not good for all of us

Scott is just what we are talking about. If you don't do it my way stay home.

I agree.
His thought process, among a few others here is more selfish than those who take a small buck just to say that they got one.

"It doesn't help me get what I want out of deer hunting, so damnit it is bull$hit."

Whatever...What about guys in NV? Should they need to drive all the way to eastern Wyoming for their meat hunts, just to avoid killing a small mulie buck and hurting some other hunter's sensitive feelings? There's lots of places where does aren't even allowed to be killed, especially for mule deer.

Nobody hates a deer hunter like a deer hunter....

One of my farmer friends says, " only thing worse than the deer are the deer hunters "

I like to eat venison

Dont give a damn about antlers

If its a decent sized animal, down it goes.

Oh, and I hunt with a hot chamber too.

Antlers are nice, but can't eat them. I feel the same way about fully guided, high dollar hunts - sure bought a nice animal, but who cares.

Wow to this thread.
A whole lot of “ do it my way or it’s the wrong way”, “can’t eat horns” , and general trash talk about others is about as stupid as a group of ,what I assume are grown adults, can be.

The buck deer has always been the trophy generations have risen before dawn to chase. It always will be. I seriously doubt that there is a deer hunter in this thread that doesn’t go into a season thinking about a big racked mature buck that they’d like to shoot.
Shoot doe for meat. I go years without shooting a buck but always have meat in the freezer.
I’m sure we all deer hunt somewhat differently based on region, season, regulations and culture.

Do what makes you feel good. Leave others to do what they do.

Good lord.

That's the ever loving point. We don't all have the opportunity to fill up the freezer with doe.

As you said, you hunt how you want, I'll hunt as I want. Don't tell though that I should have to shoot doe if I want meat, or there should be antler restrictions, etc.

Good point. Proof that we are not all immune to be able to see outside of our own microcosm.
I try to keep an open mind and continue to chase bone without apology.

Have you considered taking does? Great freezer fillers.

It hasn't ruined mine. I respect everyones goals I hunt with or that I associate with that hunts. I like to kill big bucks just like most but I cant say I am obsessed with the score.

I don’t obsess over size, but just about everyone has a bit of “trophy hunter”.

Almost everyone would be happy with a 150” mule deer, but I’d call most a liar if you say you wouldn’t shoot the 200” standing next to him, and everyone would be excited to show the pics and tell the score.

How do you tell someone you caught a big bass without telling the weight. Same with deer . Body weight and antler score. Hunt and take what YOU choose. Don’t be obsessed with what others do. Hasbeen

For me, the issue is state game departments setting antler restrictions to allegedly assure "quality deer management ".

I agree. However, many "big buck" hunters don't always do that.

How many of these "big buck" hunters do you know or know of?

Maybe their goal is to have a more balanced buck to doe ratio.

Across all spectrums on this forum the left has succeeded well in dividing a group that were once commonly aligned. The Campfire section is true testimony to this. They are good...

It's fine to set yourself a goal and stick to it. That said, "the book" and "scoring" is just sheiet made right up, and might be one of the worst things ever devised in the hunting world. Having my hunting goals determined by a bunch of elitist strangers comparing dicks isn't for me. Hunting and fishing should not be a competition between hunters, only between the hunter and the quarry. IMO.

My goals generally boil down to the first animal to give me a clean shot, and/or the one with the most meat (which often has the best antlers or horns - but that is incidental to me) , or a "cull". I took a really nice caribou bull last fall- the first caribou that came within range on opening morning. There was a slightly bigger one in the group of 5, but he was mixed in and milling with the smaller ones - this one was out in front, giving me a clear shot - and they were moving out, not quite running from other hunters, at more than 200 yards. I took what I could get. Goal fulfilled! . The year before I took a cow and an orphan calf (unrelated), as F&G wanted the herd reduced, and offered two tags. Lousy weather, and I didn't see a bull....but then I wasn't patient enough. This is an either-sex hunt, but in 2022, with only a single tag, I'll hold out for a bull for the additional meat. Preferably the biggest one I can reasonably come up with without being too picky.

To me, a "trophy" is a memento of the hunt, or perhaps an animal taken in the course of a hunt that has "character". Big can count.,...

I got me a "cull corner" going of so-called non-typical animals I've taken. Again, I did not set out or specifically select them, tho given a choice between taking out a "typical" animal and one that needs to come out of the gene pool, I'll take the cull. I did once, deliberately, on a Dall ram, choosing one with asymmetric horns over waiting for a clear shot at a "better" ram. Some consideration was given to the fact that they were 50 yards away and about to spot me in my exposed position.... Turned out his liver was shot through with a heavy infestation of flukes, and he was pounds lighter than a same age ram my brother took the day before, a few hundred yards away.

That one (and my first, tho not my best) is on my wall, along with somewhat weird moose antlers (a double set of tines and brow) - ditto a caribou with weird antler conformation (and several "good" ones.). The moose and caribou just happened to turn out that way, and I kept them because they had "character".

Why take out a cull?

It makes me feel good. That's pretty much it. The hunt is the same, the meat is the same, and maybe I'm doing that population a little good, which makes me feel good. I have to kill him to save them......

I have a blow-up of a Tundra cartoon by Chad Carpenter hanging in my garage. It shows a buck toothed, snaggle horned, cross-eyed mounted head of something- maybe a moose, maybe not- and the guy is telling his friend, "It was actually more of a mercy killing".

You get so easily hurt.

That is better achieved by harvesting bucks of all ages. One thing it has done is to reduce the deer herd. That is for sure. Personally, I don't think that is a good thing. Then again, I eat deer.

No, have opinions like everyone else and see hunter inadequacies in threads like this. So you are following me around here, good. I am living in your head, eh?

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/16897073/mike78#Post16897073

I didn't catch what state you live in yet.

The mystery will likely continue but I surmise it's likely a province.

One man gathers what another man spills!

Yer buck tag is

Kinda like your ol carrot

It should please U !

Great post.

I know a couple. Always making comments about what others choose to shoot. This year one of them looked at young guys very nice 3 year old 8 point and made the comment “ well thats a shame , you should have gave him another year or two and he would have been a real hoss”. The young hunter that shot the buck was plenty happy with it and it was well with in the guidelines of the property it was taken on.

Those guys are just dumb, and not because they are trophy hunters. You're upset at the wrong thing...

A dick is a dick, whether he trophy hunts or not.


Shoot what makes you happy and be glad for othrrs success

It is that simple.

My dad always told me to tell people that u didn’t see any deer or get any fish to bite.

I honestly can’t say that is poor advice.

I am firmly in the shoot what you want camp, assuming it is legal.
I will admit frustration though when general hunts become (more) flooded or draw odds get cut significantly more when Eastman`s or Western Hunter advertises a specific big buck or bull, and then of course the unit that it came out of eventually gets leaked on social media.

One of my favorite mule deer hunts went that route, but since has waned a bit.

I enjoy those magazines as much as anyone, have been featured in them and have many friends that have also, but I also see the issues they create.

First rule of hunting. Shoot only game that is defined as legal by your Wildlife Dept.
That being said I have hunted on property leased by me. Land owner or group rules.
Some were 8 points or better.
Some 5 1/2 years old or older.
Even hunted on a ranch where you were required to shoot 3 does before any Buck.
Each situation is different and when you agree to rules you should follow them. Hasbeen

1000%

It's a little irritating when guys pass up decent bucks the whole season going after a big one just to shoot a 3 year old the last day because it's the biggest he saw. Then complain that there's no big bucks around and proceeds to pick apart what's wrong with the "dink" he shot. They do it year after year. I've seen it over and over. For me if I'm meat hunting then it's brown it's down, if I'm after a big one its the buck I want or tag soup (or a doe for the freezer).
I don't run anyone down or judge people by what they shoot but the wanna be big shots that have seen too many hunting shows are irritating and a detriment to hunting. Just my opinion.

These last ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ two posts
Yep

Not in the least. You are a typical fudd, luckily you have your boyfriend to help you

I surmise you are likely sucking his cock

Ahhh, so TN then, Scott? Your MO is showing.

Yep, this is one in the same. The mouth from the South. This makes number ??, sock puppet?

Didn't Renegade 50 challenge him to a meet and greet to kick his arse and Steelhead never showed?

Rick put Preparation H on this hemorrhoid but it still flares up.

There are plenty like that. But it's those types ruining it for others. Not the B&C scoring. True big buck hunters know does need to be kept in check as well.

Come on dude. Neither of these guys is a "fudd" and are as nice as they come.

It hasn’t ruined it for me. I look foreword for months to opening morning. Bid my days off around it. Plant food plots. Run cameras. Sit in my back pasture overlooking my bean and corn fields watching the deer in the evenings anxiously awaiting the day the calendar says I can hunt. I hang stands and clear shooting lanes. I get to know many of my deer that are regulars. Often for several years. I look at pix of them from previous years and I know them. I devise plans and ways to and from my stands to keep from education the deer and what winds will work for my stands. Do I want to kill a big deer? You’re damn right I do! Will I? I have no idea. That’s what makes it hunting and all of that work and preparation is what makes it exciting. I admit I pass most of the bucks I see while hunting in hopes of shooting them when they are at their full potential. I also shoot bucks that I don’t think will ever grow to trophies. I have bucks in both categories that I want to kill every year. Most years I don’t get either. Some years I get both. I try to kill as many does as I can but usually wait till late season to do it. In my part of the country we can kill three does a day all season and the last few days of season I put a lot of meat away for myself and several buddies every year. To me it’s just as exciting as hunting any other time of the year. I enjoy it because I’m helping thin the deer numbers and they need it. I’m helping put good food on the tables of my friends and myself. I’m out in the woods doing what I love to do. This year I had a deer on my farm that I had known for at least three years. Several of the people that hunt around me were also hunting him. Opening evening I let someone who had never killed a buck shoot him. He was the biggest deer ever killed on my farm. When I show pictures of him people always ask “how big was he? Or “what did he score?” I always tell them I have no idea. I never measured him! The hunter was proud of him and I was proud of them both. And I still can’t wait for opening morning!

That’s impressive………

It’s very hard especially with mule deer to get yer buddy a big one!

It’s even hard with whitetail.

Meat hunter here. Those young bucks don’t have much meat compared to those mature ones. If I am going to butcher, make it a bigger bodied animal. Horn does get me excited though.

I see B&C as a measurable standard.

every inch of our 892 acres is posted. but it's not posted because we are afraid someone is going to kill "our" deer it's posted becasue of too many people who think like you do and feel they are entitled to trapse around other people's property and do as they please.

There were two dairy farms totaling over 500 acres in my immediate family here back then. Neither of them were ever posted and now you want to berate me because I had the audacity to hunt on other unposted property in the area ? Well fuuck you right in the ass bitch.

Courts allowing frivolous lawsuits with insurance companies having to pay out stupid settlements for idiotic actions contribute greatly to the posting of land.

WAY more than any deer herd or turkey flock.

That ain't an excuse here since there is a law protecting landowners from liability for someone hunting on their property.

Gave up thinking about the number of times I didn't feel "entitled' and asked politely if I could hunt a property...and was told, "No we keep it for family" or just a condescending your wasting your time "No". HuntX has opened up more Deer hunting opportunities than I ever imagined. One family around here owns over 10,0000 acres. Pieces here, pieces there over a couple counties. Pieces from 500 plus acres on down. And allows hunting on all of them. Farmland pieces he bought and allows the original owners to live out there days there. However, they still feel they have the right to post it, until they are told to talk with who really owns it. Tell me about entitlement?

Shot a Buck this year on a little 7 acre piece he owns that is surrounded by 1200 that are off limits

To the point, if another doesn't feel entitled and politely asks...Do you grant permission for a couple inches????

No, when you think about it. There are more little and average Deer shot than the Booners. Individuals post more of them here than the other. Some kill big Deer regularly and there are a variety of reasons for it. Posted land has little to do with it, while dedication and putting forth the effort to kill big ones does.

Used to have a place where getting a nice Buck was almost a slam dunk..It's gone, and now getting something average, while now harder has as much or more satisfaction.

Addition: Perhaps some need to come to a conclusion on why they hunt..If you need Booners to answer why, then you need to find Booners and hold off until you get one. Most are not willing to hold off. Up in Maine...B&C score comes second to getting a 200 pound patch.

Not to mention it's dangerous as hell having people shoot on your property not knowing where anyone else is located.

Every season for 45 years I've hunted on land that I didn't know who else was out there or where. It was never a problem.

Ignore the fact it wasn't YOURS to post.

Try and tone down the Butt Piracy f.aggot

on my private piece of land i own we don`t always shoot a huge buck every year , but i do enjoy watching the younger bucks grow up and this year my 10 year old grandson sat with me and i got to watch him with his 1st shot shoot a adult doe with my rifle , i think i enjoyed it better than myself shooting a big whitetail buck. sure i own land my family only gets to hunt on but its safer for them ,they all see deer and that`s worth it to me. my grandson is proud to know this family land i worked hard to own , this land will be left for him to enjoy and hunt as will the rest of the family has and will continue too. private land will continue to be harder to get permission on, a few people have ruined it for all of us i think the biggest problem is people don`t understand it cost money to own private land and some slobs have no respect for anything and the easiest way for a land owner is just say NO to all hunters.

It was my grandfathers land you ass hole. I had his OK to post it if I saw fit. Man you are some low life piece of shyt. No wonder you hide from your family at the holidays and they can't stand you. LOL.

Ooooof, right in the feels!

Grandpa's land wasn't yours to post then, we agree?

I just told you I had his blessing to post you dumb son of a bitch.

its been a long dark winter

So, where you hunt all stay in one place and don’t move around? Or before they do, let others know where they are going?

Or are your hunting areas that small and confining?

It certainly has.

Not really Scott. Some things never change, and winter has nothing to do with it.

Do people where you hunt routinely take shots where they are not sure of the background? Whether private or public?

How 'bout it. You have a better chance of dying in a vending machine accident than being shot dead in the deer woods.

Trespassers can AND DO sue landowners for injury constantly. An injured hunter can and will do so as well even with verbal hunting permission. Close friend in upstate paid for a claimant's knee surgery plus a pain and suffering settlement. Claimant had a clearly documented medical history of having a bad knee which was later disclosed in discovery. Guess what? He decided to try to climb an icy slope in Bean boots. Got his long overdue surgery paid in full as the insurer thought it cheaper to just settle.

Written permission is not worth the paper it is written on either. Ask any practicing attorney.
Even when signing waivers that are witnessed by a notary or a lawyer they mean very little to a jury. A large entity landowner recently paid out a court ordered judgement to a trespassing bicycle rider who RAN INTO A LOCKED GATE!

Leasing for hunting requires minimum insurance coverages by an insurer, or cash bonding if self-funding.

Liability is the biggest subject of concern (second to tax increases) that I discuss with my neighbors. Some actively farm, others simply manage their forest resources.
LIABILITY is BY FAR the biggest reason I'm given by landowners for lands being posted in the Northeast. Not QDM.

Don't be fooled in to thinking every case that gets filed gets thrown out. Most end up at least paying out medical bills for physical injuries. And for legal counsel.
Even if it is baloney or frivolous regardless of signage posting or painted boundaries.

ATV/UTV's have made it even worse.

Land damages, trash dumping, outright theft and other illegal activities always costs the landowner. Catch them in the act and still get no relief.

Many of us landowners have tried the open doors policy. Rarely does it work like it did in the past.

It's not hard to tell takers from givers. End the end, one might be punished for their good deeds.

GOL 9-103 "Commonly referred to as the recreational use statute. Affords landowners immunity from liability based on a failure to keep premises safe for entry and use by others for specific recreational activities including , hunting, fishing, coanoeing, boating, trapping, hiking and cross country skiing."

I don't know when or where your supposed instances happened but this law was amended/strengthened in 2018. I only have 10 acres here but it is not posted and I haven't had any trouble in the 14 years I've lived here. Not much to hunt but I know people go through it sometimes when hunting the neighboring property. Had one guy stop along the road out front a few years back, walk across my side yard decked out in blaze orange and carrying a rifle. It was deer season so no doubt he was going hunting. I didn't say a word. Late that afternoon I happened to be outside when he returned from his hunt. I asked him what he'd seen and chatted for a bit when he asked who I was. When I told him I owned the place he immediately became apologetic. He said he had permission from the previous owner to park here and cross my land to hunt on the neighbors, hadn't been in a few years and didn't realize it had changed hands. I told him no problem just don't park too close to the mail box. He never parked out front here again after that.

I'm very familiar with NYS law. I'm also very familiar with court filings in multiple jurisdictions.

I'm simply stating there exists a liability issue and risks for landowners, corporate and individuals. It is fact. Believe it or not, that is your choice.

I do miss the old days, but they are gone I'm afraid.

OH, you could have posted *checks notes* GRANDPA'S land. Got it.

Safe to say it wasn't *YOUR* land to post in that instance? Correct?

I was very plain in my wording. So plain even a retard like you should be able to understand.

Years ago I took my boss hunting for his first time. He killed a small spike and had it mounted. It hung proudly on his living room wall. Next outing he shot a nice 6 point. However, he was never so proud taking that spike. A couple guys snickered but I think it's great. It's a trophy in his eyes and I was glad to take him....

That's great - good for him! That's really what it should be about.

Illuminating as always, thanks for playing.

Not around here. The majority that I’ve seen talk about “meat bucks”. I’ve a long season and decent amount of tags so I take my time looking for more meat on the hoof. Horns factor in after the second tag (of four) get punched.

Yup. I don't think the state should determine how big that buck should be. If you want to just shoot a big one, have at it. I have no problem at all with that. Any buck should be legal.

Depends on the crowd you roll with I guess. Out of a few dozen hunters that I know none of them have ever bothered to have a buck scored for B&C.

Like any guy I like to kill a big buck, but I'm just going to put a few in the freezer per year and if I happen to get a nice big buck then that's just icing on the cake.

In the coastal region of Alabama, nobody ever thinks about B&C or any other kind of record.

I think the key word here is “obsession”.

I think it has more to do with the social media "influencer" types and tv shows.

Me, I enjoy the experience. The time in the woods. Observing what the animals do while I wait for a buck or doe to come by.

Not nearly as much as social media. If folks would just hunt without seeking everyone else's approval, the world would be a better place.

I trophy hunt for one reason, more time in the woods. Screw you if you don't like it.

I started hunting deer as a young boy in the 60 in Nevada and a short time later was hunting in Idaho and Utah too. So I know how the deer and elk herds were and I know what I see now.
Things are different today and in many ways.

To answer the OPs question I have to say "yes".

But there are other factors that all work together to cause hunting to be worse now then it was then. These factors all come together to cause the lack of heard size and horn size.

#1 is the fact that the game and fish departments are today morphed into organizations that have a #1 purpose, which is to perpetuate their own jobs and good pay. They may call themselves "Fish and Game". or "DNR" or any other name, but the game and the fish are the baits they use to entice sportsmen simply to enrich their coffers and to secure paychecks for the future, and the hunters and fishermen are what is managed, not the game and not the fish. The population of hunters is higher now, so the government wants to sell more and more tags despite the fact that habitat may have shrunk but a love of the money is more important to them then an abundant herd in any given habitat.

#2, When I was young there were many many privately owned lands all over the west that had land owners who didn't care if you went on their land to hunt or fish, and most would come help. Many hunters would pitch in and help the farmers and ranchers too, and that led to a lot of lasting friendships and is seems that generation of men and women who were in their 40s when I was 10 are dead and gone and have been replaces with men and women that see people as a source of money. So if they charge a man more then the cost of beef in a store, the meat hunters (which were about 99% of hunters in my youth) will simply not pay. So cultivation "big horns' and selling the game (against the law, but that what they do in effect) only to wealthy people has become the norm today.

#3 ."B.C.Scores" of racks is a way to turn the sport as a competition of man against man. Not a communing with nature and the joy of being in the wilderness, but spend $5000 to 20,0000 and the wealthy want to have something to show what they got for that money . Most as a justification to themselves for spending huge amounts of money on something as worthless as a set of horns, but no one will EVER convince them it was of little value for the amount of cash spent. They will wallow in self justification their whole lives, because admitting that 'it's only a set of horns" goes against their emotions and self deluded ideas to proves how mighty a hunter they are. "Mine is bigger then yours". But what they buy is an opportunity to hunt game held for the purpose of attracting those with money to the land owners, so the real "crop" is the hunters, not the game. They just don't know it.

We all fall for it now and then. I have. I have never killed a record "head" in the near 60 years I have hunted in 13 states and in 7 different countries, but I have killed some good sized game with large racks. I fell for the bait in the fact I have sold every single one that was larger then most to others that wanted them as "trophies" and when I was offered more money for the head than my whole hunt cost me (3 time's it was a LOT more then my whole hunt cost me) I simply sold them. I expect the ones that bought them will go one to brag about how they killed them, but I didn't care at the time. I got what I spent on the hunt and 2 times I bough new guns with the money. Once in the 80s, in Caldwell Idaho I was returning home with a large bull elk on my truck and a man going up to hunt saw me at a gas station and saw my elk. He offered me $1500 on the spot for the head. I thought he was kidding at first. I told him I had to get back to my job and would not be able to go again until the next year so I didn't really want to sell, but he made it clear he only wanted the head, not the body. So I caped it out and cut off the head and he gave me 15 $100 bills and we parted ways. I got all the meat and he got the horns -----but I got $1500 which was good money in the early 80s.

So I was not immune to the lure of cash. This explanation of my overview is just that, an explanation. Not an accusation.

But 3 things I listed above have caused hunting to degrade. Only one of them is "scoring" heads.

If I were to name one thing that was the main reason, all 3 of the ones I listed above above are hanging on 1 foundation. Greed! Love of money. even the bragging rights of todays hunters are more pronounced then they were in the 60s and 70s because today the money has excluded a lot of deer and elk from those that have no large amounts of money to throw away. I killed a mule deer in the early 70s that was 34" across, but I still didn't keep it as a "trophy" because it was my biggest rack to that date, but other men I know had bigger ones and I had use for the horns, so I used them up. I saw them as replaceable. Today such racks are not as replaceable and rareness is seen as value --- in terms of money most times.

Big herds of game are shot off to sell tags so the state governments can get money. They "manage" the herds enough to not kill the goose that lays the golden egg, but the game and the fish are NOT what the care about. They care about Money. That's why they sell tags in areas that have been over hunted.

Land owners want Money. So the lease out hunting rights or "manage' the hunts themselves to gouge hunters. Gone seem to be the days of hunters and land owners becoming friends all year long. Hunters (who are wealthy enough) want to kill "big heads" because if they don't they will see the experience for what it really is. A rip-off, for both the hunt and the meat.

So getting a "big head" gives them a false since of satisfaction about how they got taken for a lot of MONEY, but "it was worth it".

In the 50s and 60s the Christian ethic was still a factor in much of society. Greed and self importance are part of human nature, but from the start of the USA until the late 60s the Christian ethic was at least taught as a standard to try for. Those that openly rejected it's moralities were noted and distrusted.

In the late 60s it because stylish to reject the teachings of the Bible and try to legitimize greed and god-hating. Hunting is just one of thousands of things that have been hurt by that teaching.

The love of money is the root of all evil.

yes it has especially in montana