I've decided to draw upon y'all's experience with whitetail to compile the official national database of bullet-proof deer herds. I don't know how many times I've heard "You can't kill deer around here with THAT!" From this database, I hope to go on to write a best-selling book, and maybe a website. I figure this is going to be my ticket to the big time. I can quit may day job and tour the country with my map and get invited on the TV shows and kill deer with T/C Encores.

What I need from y'all is your experiences with bullet-proof deer. Anecdotal evidence is just fine-- science doesn't have to enter into it. From what y'all give me, I'll start entering it into the database and from there, I'll begin by publishing a map.

Please make your submissions by reporting a state, county, and caliber, and from there you're free to include anything else.
As an example, I can tell you flat out that according to my years of monitoring Ohio deer forums, whitetail deer in Southeastern and Northeastern Ohio are now absolutely immune to 2.75" deer slugs, and .357 Magnum pistol ammunition. You need 3" magnums for the former and a .44 Mag for the latter.

Help me out: Is it Northern Texas or Southern Texas where calibers of .270 and below have ceased killing whitetail? At what point below the Mason Dixon line do you need to put away the 30-06 and get out the 300 Win Mag? When does the .338 become necessary? When do you need to add the extra 'S' to the WSM to keep the bullets from bouncing off?

If nothing else, I want to document the regions of the country where the 30-30 historically fails and the isolate pockets where deer have actually become vunerable to the 223 Remington. These two items alone will really make the project worthwhile. Maybe we can match these against nutrition, herd size, and other factors and get an idea why these two phenomena are happening. The other thing I want to investigate is why some deer are becoming immune to cast hard lead,and guilding metal, and are now only killable with the addition of polycarbonate plastic inserts on the ends of the bullets.

I don't really care if you believe what you've heard; I'll take hearsay, conjecture, and wild theory. The trick is to start documenting it. We can winnow out the chaff later.

Here in NY we used to be limited to shotguns for deer. The deer have become quite resistant to slugs. Years ago I shot a deer.. hit her perfectly( because that where I was aiming) yet I had no blood or hair and didn't recover her... proof that the 2.75 win foster slug can't hurt a 110lb doe.

Three years ago the state finally allowed rifles for deer. These deer that can withstand an 1 oz slug are easily killed with a 150g 3030 bullet. I suspect the deer will quickly build an immunity to underpowered rifles like the 30.30, thats why I have already ttransitioned to more powerful rounds.

Just making an observation...It seems like the 'borderline' deer cartridges, any of the centerfire .22's and the .243 win, to be sure, are mainly contested in areas where "actual tracking" may have to occur. Geography seems to dictate the 'effectiveness' of a given cartridge.
When you have areas where thickets/bottoms are so thick that even rabbits get lost...peanut rifles need not apply. IMO Bloodtrails ARE a good thing! Big ones. I'm sure those pop guns work great where deer can't run out of site in a week but around the thick stuff, game will be lost.

Lots of 223AI use here and I promise you this [bleep] is thicker than anything AR has.

Have only had one deer go more than 5 yards after being hit with a 223AI and it was a bloodtrail a blind man could have followed.

We don't seem to have much trouble around here with 243's and 30-30's. This is in East Central Arkansas. As some-one on this board once stated. "It don't matter what you are shooting, if you hit them around the edges, they will run off." miles

I don't think there is a centerfire rifle that I'd be afraid to shoot deer with.

I have buddies with the latest and greatest wumpimthumpim magnums and we track thier deer ALL the time and they poke fun at my teeny tiny 243, but mine are bang,flop, go pick them up put in truck. SHOT placement is the whole deal and they cant figure that out!

The thick stuff of which I speak is on the big pine company leases in south Arkansas. The undergrowth on our 4500 acre club/lease is amazing. Walking through it is a chore unto itself. Of course I agree that shot placement is key, even with that, they DO still run. No blood trail just exacerbates the problem. Not every hunter happens to be a crack shot with finely tuned equipment that just happens to practice regularly. Most I come across buy some bullets and go hunting with the "I shot it last year out the truck window rifle". I also agree that no caliber guarantees DRT. I have myself shot deer with little guns over the years and they were surely dead. I've also seen deer soak up those little pills and run into the next county, with good hits. If you limit their range to 175 yards or so, their OK. Out past that, they are left wanting. Been there done that. Point is, there are far better cartridges for big game, especially when being used by someone less than experienced. And I disagree, marginal hits ARE the difference between pop guns and solid deer cartridges.

Your question is much too general. Already your getting emotional responses.

One of these days the important factors are going to be identified.

Once that happens the current mantra will be forgotten.

Schopenhauer said it best.

All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.
Arthur Schopenhauer

I wasn't trying to start a bunch of guff. Just making an observation based on many past threads. A good hunter could no doubt use a 22 MAG and be very successful most of the time. But a November hunter can truly benefit from a bigger/better penetrating bullet. You can't make up for crappy shooting for sure, but every thing you do to improve your odds is only fair to the game being pursued.
I swapped my son from a .243 to a .308 last year, it's very noticeable, the difference it made.
Kinda like a kid starting with a .410..there are better choices.

My kids have had excellent success with the 250-3000 and 100 gr pills at 2650. that's about the minimum for me. still, I have total confidence in my 220 swift (but I have not actually killed anyting with it yet).

I think this thread has changed directions, But here goes. I was told that you couldn't kill deer with a 308 because the bullets just fell out of the end of the barrel, and a 300 h&h was the best deer caliber because all you have to do is point it in the general direction. I heard these stories from other young hunters when I was in middle school.

Oh, and the 30-30 was too slow to catch a deer.

Look at a map of Texas. East of the Brazos River it seems that the 223, 243, 6M?M work quite well.
West of the Brazos you have to step up at least two calibers or so I have been told.

Now then Oklahoma is different. You can kill a deer with a 106 RR HEAT round. I know you can because I did at 900 yards on the Ft Sill range in 1961. In fact I may have killed two. There was an extra leg that we never could account for.

That is the extent of my Oklahoma hunting.

BCR

I've seen just about anything kill deer but, how about an interesting side bar for your first article?
Texas bob cats are tougher than bears because you need something bigger than a 300 mag to kill em. I saw a large bob cat hit just behind the shoulder at about 15 yards with a 180gr from a 300 mag. He flipped three feet in the air, landed on his feet and ran off. No blood, hair or anything else could be found and cat never was found.
I know some will scoff and say it was a clean miss or that the bullet never expanded at that range/velocity, etc. etc. But local legend now "proves" that our bob cats can take more punishment than bears and you'd better have at least a 375H&H!

I dunno. South TX buck, 225 pounds dressed... 300 wtby, 180 partitions, about 125ish yards. Neck shot was all I had. Neck was 26-27 inch girth. Centered neck, bullet blew up and was lodged against spinal column on this side of deer. Never would have died as I missed the arteries/veins. But was paralyzed so I could shoot him again.

I still don't hesistate to use small rounds though.... small 6mm accounted for all my meat last fall(except one shot with a 50 beowulf and one shot with a 50 bmg) and did just fine with 85 tsx in south TX.....

Take your pick, generally they say shot placement is it. And it is, I just expected a pass through with that combo.

Jeff

Thanks! This is a great start. Keep it coming.

Has anyone heard a good explanation on why deer get immune to cartridges? Is it the repeated exposure of a particular round? Near misses? What?

I think the other 3 may have ended up here, Boggy.

Never did find the rest. Might try someone in Missouri/Illinois/Kentucky.

It's a SAAMI Conspiracy, at least that's the theory here!!!

Minimum needed around here in NC seems to be a 35 Whelen with 200 plus grains of North fork bullets, otherwise they just shank it off and walk away.... or so I hear.

The deer that I have heard about, according to other hunters, being immune to slugs and bullets have been the ones where the slug or bullet bounced off the deer and hit a tree, or the bullet went through them and the wound healed instantly, etc...and on and on. Good shot placement, and fair tracking skills when needed have always worked for me. I also hunt in Ohio with slugs and PA with a rifle and don't seem to have a problem dropping them. I get some guff every now and then about using a 308 Win, usually from the big gun guys and my slugs for the shotgun are the 2 3/4 inch version. Am I doing something wrong!

cur dog

Mr. shaman:
When I was a kid in Saskatchewan it was pretty common knowledge that one couldn�t kill a deer with a .30-30. Being the obstinate sort, I bought one and shot 2 deer, but since I�d moved to BC by then, maybe they were right for those �big Saskatchewan deer�.

When I moved out here I fell in with a .270 crowd who were merciless toward me and my use of .308�s and .30-06�s. They were OK, with .30 Magnums, but anything less would not reliably kill deer as the bullets weren�t going fast enough.

As I�d been witness to a number of .22 rimfire bullets killing deer, albeit for euthanizing deer hit by vehicles, I always felt their opinions were somewhat biased.

Happy New Year to you all!
Dwayne

Shaman,

I have first hand knowledge that the .223 will kill deer out here in west Texas! So will the .243, the .270 AND I am sorry to say, the deer out here will still be dead if shot in the right place with a 30-30.

As a side note, I have a father-in-law who tells a story of a West Virgina 8pt who he hit in the shoulder with a 20 gauge slug at 45 yards-knocked the deer down, deer got up and ran off...no blood, no hair and he recovered the slug-no signs of penetration on the bullet. He says later that particular ammo was re-called due to failure to perform, but MAYBE IT WAS THE DEER!!!

Hope this helps

Dave

Are you familiar with the "holes in the bucket" theory? You don't worry about patching holes up the sides until you have the ones on the bottom fixed. If I could just get our hunters to hit what they aimed at, I would worry more about bullets and calibers!

Deer are funny creatures, you can shoot 10 in a row with the same gun and the reaction will vary wildly. Remarkably resilient I would say. I've had enough less than desirable situations with proper cartridges. I'm not trying to see how little I can get away with, I want an ending as quickly as possible, everytime, without fail. Hurling a popcorn kernel at Mach 3+ towards a 200+ pound game animal and expecting consistent results time and time again just sounds to much like gambling to me. I'm sure stories abound about success with said popcorn...but I'm not interested.

Natural selection. It's quite simple really. The deer that are susceptible to a cartridge are killed. The ones that are immune survive the shooting to breed another day. Only the strong survive.

-

The only sure cure for "deer cartridge immunity"is to load up $1.00-$2.00 each bullets in whatever caliber @ 3500 fps.

BTW,
You should also limit your shots to no less than 600 yards in case this suddenly starts to fail.

You might need the head start if the deer decides to retaliate:)

When I was 14 years old (35 years ago) I killed a deer with a 22LR. I would not try that stunt today even on a bet. In these modern times it takes at least one of the WSMs ,bare minimum ,to kill these little deer around here.

Mike

In Alberta our deer are so large that oufitters tell clients dont show up with less than a 30cal magnum, shooting 180gr. Swift A Frames.

Another is the 30/30 is so impotent that you can catch the bullets in a ball glove at 300yards. (batter up)

Or my favourite.
I shot my deer right in the lungs with my 270 and he ran away.
So I then bought a 7em em and still couldn't kill my deer, So now my 338 will simply knock em flat.
Usually followed by...... what do you mean go to the range they said it was bore sighted.

The .41RemMag will absolutely not kill ANYTHING, just ask the shooters who use .44RemMag and larger handguns. I was told when I ordered the first S&W 657 to come into NC that it would be useless as a hunting gun. After 13 years of KILLING STUFF with that caliber I have finally figured out why they all died. They all had heart attacks. It was from surprise at the sheer audacity of my use of a .41RemMag to actually try to kill it. The strange thing is that the heart attack phenomenon is not limited to NC it also happens in TX, SC, GA, AL, OR, MN, and TN. BTY this phenomenon isn�t limited to whitetail deer. It happens to piggies, goats, sheep and feral cattle, even happened to a bison. Go figure!!

I used to be fortunate enough to get invited to hunt a South Texas ranch that was owned by an old Beeville family. One of the owners was a fellow graduate student and we remained friends. Except for my friend, the family was convinced that belted magnums were needed for adequate performance on South Texas deer, preferably Weatherby magnums.

My friend hunted with a classic Mannlicher-Schoenauer in 7x57, and was regarded as being desperately under-armed. They tolerated the .30-06 that I was shooting at the time, but would have been more comfortable if I had brought a belted magnum of some persuasion. During the time that I hunted there, my friend and I never shot a deer more than once nor did we lose any....

Shaman,

Deer reaction to any/all hunting implements is generally a product of hunters who frequent "Mahogany Ridge", where they swap lies cleverly disguised as the truth! The first beneficiary of such "truth-telling" is the purveyer of 'old Stump Blower" and similar serums...Next is the gun dealer, happy to oblige the need for more potent deer medicine. The deer? They just continue to duck and dodge whatever is thrown at them. Not surprisingly, the deer have become expert at hiding injuries suffered from hunting guns. Such encourages the mighty hunter to upgrade his equipment, ala "More Power!" In so doing, he subjects himself to greater and greater recoil...begins to flinch at every shot...and consequently misses a lot. Next time you are in the woods and hear a shot, particularly a loud, booming shot, listen carefully: Most surely you will hear one or more deer exclaim, "Got another one!"

shaman, it must be farther south of the MD line than we are here. I don't know of any .22 centerfire use for the armored deer but the .243 is quite common. Here in WV any centerfire cartridge is legal for deer hunting with a rifle. We do use saboted projectiles with the tungsten "dart" like the Abrams tanks do.

Actually I'm a cheap bastid and use Rem Core-Lokts in my .243, 7-08, and have used them in my '06 (now 165gr Hornady flat base for a change).

Crawfish, I have a .44 mag but I am a .41 believer. I have been going to therapy.

Do you think that might have something to do with it? How ingenious can these deer really be? The next thing some one will be telling me is that bucks use their antlers to push the does out in front to take a bullet for them. . . uh. . . never mind. somebody's already told me that.

I don't know about you guys, but I'm thinking now of wearing aluminum foil under my orange hat. These deer are so smart, they may be able to read our thoughts. . . uh, . . . never mind. I've heard that one too.

Jeezle Petes! Bullet-proof, mind-reading, devil deer. Which counties did you say they were in now?

Here in Montana the deer are apparently both getting tougher and smaller. When I started hunting in the 1960's a .30-30 was OK, but real deer cartridges started with the .243 (for some reason considered a lot more powerful back then, shortly after it first appeared) and a lot of guys were trading off their inadequate old .270's and .30-06's for 7mm Remington Magnums.

Now the used rifle section of any gun store is filled with .243's and 7mm Remington Magnums the guys traded in for short mags. This is because they were told that the the short mags are a lot more accurate, and everybody knows that for hunting deer today you need all the accuracy you can get. Three shots in 1/2" at 100 yards is just barely acceptable.

I guess this is just evolution. Apparently all the big, soft deer were killed off in the 1960's by .243's and Big Sevens, allowing only the really tough little bastards to breed.

Okay, I'm copying this into the database:

All counties of Montana, 30-30, 243 Win, 270 Win, 30-06 and 7MM REM MAG are no longer effective on deer-- short mags are the answer -- per MD. Time/Date, etc. Done.

Got it! Thanks for contributing. Your stature here and elsewhere will most assuredly help get this project off the ground. This is the sort of data we really need. I was beginning to think my quest was going to degenerate into yet another meaningless discussion.

So you ascribe to the "survival of the fittest" theory as the mechanism of immunity as opposed to the "increased deer intelligence" theory or the "repeated exposure" theory? Cool. I'm still not really sure myself. Do you see this as an upward spiral? I mean, could we all be shooting 416 Rigby by 2050?

Think on it man, to what do you attribute the recent sub rosa interest in the 50 BMG among the deer hunting crowd?

The 220 Swift kills them dead, my bud Joe snipes them with a Ruger Target Gray across a huge field, IIRC he is using premium bullets but cannot remember the make now. He got two does this year with it.

Shaman, this is slightly off topic, but on another website I frequent there was a thread once about armadillos moving into the northern part of the Georgia, and people were posting about shooting them. One person warned all the others to be careful of ricochets if they shot armadillos, he had seen a .44 magnum glance off the shell of one in Florida years ago!

There are no bullet proof deer. Just deer-proof (horse-pucky) shooters. Deer can be killed with a 22 short, if hit in the right place. I "know a guy" who killed one with a .17 pellet gun pellet, traveling just over 900 fps. A target point at that!

You can include west Texas in this. I was told not to bring my 25-06 back as the land owner suggested they may be able to kill a deer if you are close enough but not as far away as 100 yards. :-)

I didn't want to bring it up, for fear of discouraging a few of our members, but thank you for giving me a chance to clear my consceince. It has become a well know fact that 250 Savage, 300 Savage, and basically any round fired through a Savage Model 99 are incapable of stopping deer. I know you guys have been looking for a way to justify not using these guns, so I suggest you immediately send them all to me for proper disposal. Especially the factory engraved, and other "high end" models. I realize this is a huge sacrifice on my part to take these guns off your hands, but what can I say? I'm just one hell of a humanitarian. It has also come to my attention that any scopes by Zeiss, Schmitt & Bender, and Leuopold share the same affliction. They may be forwarded to me for proper dispersal, er, disposal, I mean. While we're on the topic, it would be a good idea to forward all pre-64 model 70's, regardless of caliber, because they have also been determined to be non-lethal on deer in all states. This is a limited time offer, so be sure to pack them defective shottin' irons up and get them off to me within the next 1 to 2 decades for proper dispersal. (Dadgummit-that was supposed to DISPOSAL.)

Might as well throw SE KY into their somewhere. My Cousin traded in his old Ruger M77 tang in .25-06 for a Walmart special Rem 700 in 7mm Mag. Seems he can't get to the range often enough so he decided to go bigger. Jeeze, if he wasn't family.

Rest of us will continue to make do with our .243, .257 Bob, .270 and 7mm-08's just fine. We'll just have to pick out the smaller deer I guess

Here is the main problem with this database. Many deer sensing danger will use their keen sense of trigonometry and algebra and will compute the exact trajectory of the bullet and then step directly behind that 1/2 inch diameter branch or limb that you did not see in your 6.5 x 20 x 50mm illuminated reticle astronomical quality 2 pound rifle scope set at 20X. Thus we must also correlate lost deer with not only the toughness of their hides but also their mathmatical abilities. Your 12 pound 300 WSM may be just fine and dandy as well as your 22-250 in certain areas regards hide toughness, however the data could be skewed due to our disregard in this database for the deers ability to cipher mathmatics, you know like naught plus naught equals naught and you carry the naught.

You see alot of 7mm Rem Mags here. Especially in Browning BARs. Alot of them talk about taking offhand shots at 300 yards and that they've lost deer that they've "bloodied" and couldn't find. Apparently, their 270 (which probably is the only cartridge more popular here than the 7 mag) couldn't "cut it" that far out on a sub 100lbs whitetail. So, the bigger gun gets bought and since it's a semi-auto, a few rounds can be "thrown at" the deer as dogs push it past a road, right of way, clear cut, etc. These same people tell me that my 243 "should" work if I hit them just right. Who'd a thunk it.

I shot a doe this year with my AR15 .223.One shot to her neck at 10yds did the job like hitting her with a bat!Bullet was a winchester 64gr power point loaded with 2015 powder.

Jeez, Glock, why didn't you just stab her with the bayonnet? Ya gotta quit taking them long shots, man.

Shaman: IME the highest proportion of bullet-proof deer reside in Central Canada. In Alberta, I have had otherwise pretty intelligent guys(mostly state-side hunters) look me straight in the eye,and swear that you were doomed to failure on those ironclad bucks without a 300 RUM, and better still a 338 RUM..... (I did not have the nerve to ask what these guys considered fully adequate elk cartridges)

I have seen both these cartridges in use up there along with one 30-378. 300 Weatherby's are common and the 7 rem mag I carried seemed like chump change in comparison. The times I carried a 270 I was regarded as some kind of dangerous nut, severely handicapped given the "size" of these bucks and those enormormous fields (usually these Alberta bucks are compared to deer from NY or New Jersey,and are "way bigger";hence the need for heavy armament).

Apparently this genetic strain of super-whitetail spills over into Saskatchewan as well, where a lot of 300 mags with 26" barrels find there way into tree stands overlooking bait piles where the average shooting distances are about 75 yards. These rifles are customarily topped off with 4-14x56 variables, to take advantage of that last scintilla of light, even though Saskatchewan ends hunting at sundown, at least the last time I was there.When you suggest that a light 22" barreled 30/06 might be handier,well you can imagine the rest...

With thoughts of Saskatchewan whitetails weighing a whole 350 pounds and guys who feel a 180 gr bullet at 3400 fps is a minimal whitetail load, the whole scene in Saskatchewan took on a carnival-like atmosphere. I have not been back in a decade..............my last Alberta buck was killed with a 270...

Bob,

The first time I hunted deer in Alberta, back in 1993, there were six guys in camp. Three had 7mm Remington Magnums, one had a .300 Wnchester Magnum, and one had a .300 Jarrett. The other (clueless) guy had a .280.

The clueless .280 guy was paired up with a guide who really liked the .25-06 for Alberta deer. He was in his mid-50's and had killed quite a few over the years. He asked the .280 guy, "What did they bring those big rifles for? They ain't huntin' elephants!"

The .280 guy shot a buck that field-dressed 225 pounds at 300 yards. The pitiful little 150-grain Nosler Partition went right through both shoulders. The deer hadn't read any magazine articles, however, and fell right over.

I cant vouch for this from personal experience but the gang down at the local rifle range tell of mule deer in the southern end of the Bighorns that simply cant be killed with bullets moving less than 2900 fps. According to this group of stalwart deer hunters it is just about pointless to use a cartridge with a MV of less than 2900 on muleys out in the sage hills.

I have never encountered any of these rugged deer but Ive heard the talk at the range. Funny how the guys doing the talking usually break out boxes of factory ammo with "Core Lokt" on the box when its time to sight in.

Why the magic number is 2900 I dont know and have no plans to ask. How they know their bullets are going that fast I also have no plans to ask. Its more fun to just listen.

Uh oh, the bullet from my 300 Savage may bounce off of one this weekend. It's only starting out around 2700 feet per second!

Mathman, did you see my earlier post on this topic? Read it quickly, and you'll have a definitive answer to your "Savage" issue. By the way-please include shipping and handling BOTH WAYS just in case I decide I don't need it.

I'm OK, my 300 Savage is a Remington 700.

I know I've posted this before but heck it's a free country (grin). This deer didn't know that 100gr Core-Lokts handloaded into a 243 Win launched at 20ish yards would bounce off. The mail ran slow that day so he never got the memo in time.

JB: See, the guy with the 280 had not been properly indoctrinated.... Poor innocent soul most likely has spent too many years rolling elk in Montana with 270's and 30/06's !!

I had a guy from NY,with a straight face, tell me the 270 was a chump whitetail and mule deer round, maybe OK for small southern deer from the lower 48, but unsuitable for Canada. I REALLY wonder about where this notion comes from?

We really should not be TOO hard on the 7 mag users,though...

Bob...go easy on those 7mm mag users

They would just love me and my 7mm-08s

Oldguns: I'll try..... I always thought we were pretty rational people!!

Shaman,

I just happen to live on the border line of a ballistic differential. Just the other night around the camp fire I discovered from several lease members that on the north side of the fire it required at least a 30 caliber cartridge to harvest the average size whitetail where on the south side of the fire anything over a .270 was an over kill.

I told them that it was just dumb luck that we built our camp fire directly on the border line on that of such a ballistic situation. I also told them I needed to collect some money from each member, so I could have new maps made with caliber requirements posted directly on the map.

I collected 8 dollars before half of them caught on.

Hoot

Bob,

Funny thing was, the guy with the .300 Jarrett ("winner" of the Biggest Rifle In Camp Award) never did get a deer. He missed at least 3--which just goes to prove, once again, that the "shock wave" doesn't contribute a lot to killing power!

Wow am I ever glad I don't live anywhere near them little tough deer or armadillos. I aint the man I onst wuz and can barely shoulder my 257 Bob/// My life would be in danger
Randy

MD: Friend of mine, a good guy but poor shot,came from NY to practice at my range. He sucked SO bad with his 300 Weatherby I made him put it away and pull out his 270,which he did MUCH better with. I told him to use the 270 in Alberta, which he did.

He STILL missed, but admitted he was just a bum shot and really needed to practice more.....there's a lesson here.

At the risk of generalizing,I seem to run into two types of 300 mag shooters; those who know EXACTLY what they are doing,are very fine shots and very experienced guys; and those who are completely clueless....

Missing 3 deer on ONE TRIP really sucks!What can you say to a guy like that? I'd feel really sorry for him.....

We all should practice more. I agree there are many who figure if they carry a big gun they are real hunters. And many who know and use their large power rifles with knowledge and excellence. The calibre carried does not say anything about the skill level.

When I was a boy men carried one rifle that they knew intimately and shot well. Most were not power houses but game was more plentiful ander under a lot less pressure. A 30/30 was all the gun needed. A bush hunting stalk hunter is still not under gunned with one today.

Randy

I have been told Plains deer in KS., NE., SD., ND., and WY. cannot be killed by the "diminutive" .25-06 and that my .257 Roberts was even worse. Oh and the 8x57 is too rainbow like in trajectory to be good at any range past 100 yards.

As an additional data point my .270WSM is supposedly going to bounce off any Elk and is barely adequate for deer in TX.

Even outfitters get caught in the cobwebs of this mindset.
While scanning outfitter websites for a deer hunt in Saskatchewan or Alberta some of them read 7mm as a minimum caliber. (Which I took as a backwards way to imply no 270's.)

Well, don't tell the moose up here that they need anything more than a 243 to get killed with, cause my wife's first one went down to a 243 Handi-Rifle stuffed with 95 gr Partitions. Shot was almost face on at around 40 yards. Moose died inside of 50 feet with NO LUNGS left.

She is shooting a 30-06 now, but that cow was tasty and netted about 350 pounds of meat. She's a cool hand with a rifle at her shoulder.

Dunno about deer, but .308 is too light for elk in Oregon! So they say.

-jeff

Wow! All this talk of magnum this and improved that leaves me ashamed. You see, I reverted back to Neandethal status. I swore off sights, rests, range finders, nick nacks and doo dads.
I killed my last Ohio doe with a stick and string...

Stupid computer...

John,

How much did it weigh when you got closer?

Or did you mean "shot a buck at 300 yards that field dressed 225 lbs?"

;-)

It ain't only the deer! Older fellow at work told me he used to shoot a 270, but hit a coyote 2 times in the ribs and it up an ran off! Traded that puny 270 off on a 7 magnum, now he never looses one he hits. He liked that so good, he went and bought a 300 magnum. Asked me to check the scope and do a trigger job on it. When he brought it in he hadn't been able find the box of shells he had for it. Said it must of gotten lost when he moved 10 years ago, too bad cause there was still 17 rounds left from that box he bought at the same time as he got the rifle. He likes "130s in the 7 and 150s in the 300 cause they're so fast you don't have to worry about how far they are". Specially on elk

I'd like to know how he field dressed it at 300 yards. Long knife?

It seems that lately deer have become bullet proof not only to caliber specific rifles but also to bullets that are not sold under a premium price tag. I guess I'll have to tell all the deer I've shot with my .308 and .30-06 with Core-loks and Gamekings to get out of my freezer because they really aren't dead until they were shot with a bullet that costs $5.00 apiece.

A lot of this bullet proof deer stuff is simply regional demographics. Look closly and you'll see trends:

For instance, have you ever noticed how in areas with high populations of assisted living retirment centers adjacent to large herds of frail, high strung deer, that the .223 is the most popular cartridge of choice? A coincidence you say? I think not!

Big city hunter: = shiney .300 magnum, huge 12-40x64mm scope. s/s barrel with spiral fluting and plastic stock..( the fluting adds nothing to the bullistic advantages of the .300, it just gives the deer something to look at ) The deer of course are brutes that are never killed at less than 600 yards!

Gang banger hunters: = 9mm... any color, as long as it matches the spinner hub caps. Scope optional, but most shooters polled say their too hard to use at night from a moving vehicle.
Rifles aren't normaly used, as you need one hand to hold your pants up. Whuzza "deer"?

Anyway, the list goes on and on... You could color code the states, like they do during election years...color code the rifles too, so you could mix n match for outa state hunts!

This is gonna make a great book!

Reporting in from south Alabama here.

First the one thing that the local online forum experts and behind the sporting goods counter guys here in Bama are certain of is that the .243 will not consistently kill deer. Oh sure they acknowledge that deer have been killed by a 243 but quickly add that a 22 short can possibly kill a deer but that doesn't make it a good deer round. They are fond of saying that if you hunt with a 243 sooner or later you will lose a deer just because you are using a 243. I would have thought shot placement would play a part in losing a wounded deer but apparently not. Nope, sooner or later a deer hit squarely in the lungs will just refuse to die simply because the bullet came from a 243. You see there is this concept called "Margin of Error." I'm no expert on it but apparently it works like this. The bigger and more powerful cartridge I shoot a deer with the farther away from the vitals I can hit him without any fear of losing him. Rifles like a 338 ultra mag allow you to shoot a deer any where and the resulting hydrostatic pulse wave will still race through their veins and arteries exploding their heart, lungs and brain. As you go down in power the kill zone shrinks accordingly. By the time you get down to a 30-30 or 243 the sure kill vital zone on a deer has shrunk to the brain pan and the asending loop of the Aorta. Any hit outside these areas with such underpowered rounds are a complete 50/50 crap shoot as to whether the animal will be recovered or not. That could be important info for your book.

Also, I foolishly based my past rifle purchases on the fact that almost all of my shot's would be less than 150 yards on Alabama deer rarely weighing more than 170 lbs. With that as my guide I thought short action calibers like 243, 7mm-08 or 308 hurling 100 to 150 grain bullets at 2700 to 2800 fps from light weight 22 inch barreled rifles would be ideal. WRONG, WRONG, WRONG!!! Thankfully I have been educated that one must not base rifle purchases on what you will be doing with it 99.9% of the time but instead on what you might do with it once. So, while to the inexperienced hunter, it may seem odd for me to spent the next 15 years shooting small deer at 100 yards with a 338 magnum. I as a newly "In The Know" hunter just brush aside the looks on their uninformed faces, confident in the knowledge that the brown bear hunt I might go on one time before I die will have made this caliber the right one for all my needs.

As the proud owner of a 35 Whelen deer rifle, I completely understand. Look at it this way: as this growing acquired immunity problem creeps into our woods, we will be ready with our new super pills to take care of the problem.

Huh?

Was that Arturo Schopenhauer from the Dominican? Played third base for the Padres a few years back. Good glove but no bat. Same guy. right?

Ever since my anemic loads, from wimpy calibers, out of crappy rifles, started bouncing off of deer, I realized, hey, I coulda had a 338!
Never seen a deer not die when hit right, even a front stuffer squirrel rifle could/will do the job.

I had good success with the 30 calibers . but due to the evelution thing went to the old 45/70 and its been doing quite well. but to stay ahead of those toughazz deer I had a special encore barrel made in the 50/70 caliber. my theroy is when they become used to the newer calibers we have to start over with the older calibers as they can only be resistent to a couple calibers at a time. I presently am building a 64 caliber muzzle loader rifle that should really confuse the heck out of them.

I bought a T/C Encore in 7mm-08 from a dealer in Great Falls when I was living there. The guy asked me what I wanted it for, and I told him to deer hunt with. He informed me that since I was a pretty big guy I at least needed a .300 WM, and a .338 would be better. He did all of his hunting with a .375 H&H. I told him the 7mm-08 would suffice and order it for me. When the gun game in, he called me and was still trying to get me to buy a .300 WM. I told him if the .243 will kill a moose (there were to ladies in the paper in GF that shot a moose with .243's), then the 7mm-08 would kill any muley I shot with it.

well......I've hit em with a 180 grain silver tip outta a .300 Savage and they laughed at me...I smoked em with a 12 ga. Copper Solid Remington Slug 3" and they thought it was a deer fly..but I did get one bang flop with my 1992 Chevy Blazer...that one was easy to track...good blood trail across my hood..down past the passenger door and 6 more feet to the shoulder of the road.. This was all done in N.W. Ionia County-Michigan.

shoot straight
Tom

You mean you actually shoot deer to kill them? How the heck can you kill them with those tiny little bullets? Here in NW Ohio the darned cloven hoofed rodents are impervious to autos. I totaled an Accord a couple of years ago when one the more oblivious to using the cross walk ones strolled in front of me. I was sure that I hit her in the boiler room just behind the shoulder, but I may have hit something solid by the looks of the car. Anyway it (car)blew up on contact and failed to penetrate. No blood trail, only a bit of hair and a wad of cud on a fragment of hood. Im sure it couldn't have been driver error, especially at that range. Hours of searching turned up no deer and even after watching the nearby field for a week there was no sign of the buzzards that live in the falling down barn half a mile up the road. Next season I'll try a Semi, as they seem to do a much better job of killing the ones that wander onto the interstate.

Bullets are a lot like women. Some men like Blonde's some like redheads some like Brunette's. Some guys like 'em fat, some skinny, some just right. It all depends on what you are going to do with them. Just like deer hunting. Farm Fields, Woods, Mountains, Desert's. Day or night. Baiting or not. Driving, treestanding or groundblinding. So with all these variables why not pick a caliber and a bullet out of a hat, try it out and if you have confidence in it, you are home free. Good analogy? I shot a 10 Point monster buck with a crossbow last year at 15 yards. The arrow went right through in almost precicely the spot I aimed. he bolted and ran. I sat for 2 hrs, before I went after him in heavy cover. I followed the blood trail for 2 miles to a creek. It ended there and I never found him. Maybe that's why deer hunting is so interestiong that you can't wait to do it. i hung the arrow over my fireplace instead of the Antlers. Oh, well.

When I took my .444 Marlin to deer camp in Central Louisiana, the members thought I crazy. EVERYBODY knows that cartridge doesn't have enough range. Of course, there's no stand on the lease where you have a shot over 100 yards.

It's obviously the fault of those "Quality Deer Management" people. All their efforts with feeding and selective management are the reason that some deer are now so large and smart that they have become immune to what used to be adequate cartridges.
Deer from areas where this is not practiced yet can still be killed with the smaller calibers. Really not hard to figure out. However, will not sell many books. Well maybe if they are only a couple pages.

Battue

no, it ain't QDM.

it's the no deer left behind program.

they're getting too stinkin' educated. i've seen tattered copies of cabela's catalogues and outdoor life in bedding areas, handloading manuals and ballistics tables to boot. they get enough education, they get armored hides. THAT's why .30-30s do not suffice any longer ...

I just got back from a Hill Country hunt in Moutain Home, Tx where the ranch owner's daughter knocked off a trophy whitetail and a 375 lb hog within 20 min of each other w/ a .223 Remington. His new gun of choice for pork is the .17 HMR, so if he is any indication we might be inclined to revise the saying to "everything but the rifles are bigger in Texas"!

To answer your question more directly, I was strongly advised against allowing my daughter to deer hunt w/ a .223 Remington when rifle shopping here in Michigan. They fall fine to the ole 30 WCF, 2 3/4" slugs in Southern LP, and even non-mag muzzle loaders, but the 223 Rem or 243 Win will raise eyebrows... seen it first hand!

I think this is rather funny, Its like saying humans now can take a bullet better then they could 40 yrs ago. Nonsense hit it where it counts and thats that. Animals anatomy has not chagned in such a way that it can now be resistant to bullets now that it couldnt 40 yrs ago. I do find humor in this though reading some comments. if you hit the animal and it didn't drop or you had no trail then the wounds were such that injury was not sufficent to make a blood trail. But is is impossible as I mentioned for animals to build resistance to bullets especially if you took a 100lb deer now and a 100lb deer 40 yrs ago. The only difference may be that like humans deer may breed larger now then 40 yrs ago but 100lbs is 100lbs so if their the same size the same injury would occur. therefore no resistance can be built up, sorry to burst a bubble.

I know a dude wrangler who works for a guide up in Dillon, Montana, who has a stack of elk horns (about 30) in his barn that would make your eyes pop. All were killed with an open-sighted Remington 600 in 243 Winchester with one shot behind the ear. Way to go Mr. Deems!

Wayne

Bullet placement is the grand daddy to all calibers!!!

I hunt in western NY.

3 years ago I was still using a Rem. Wingmaster 20 gauge because it was free and I never had a problem with not recovering a deer. Then I was walking out to my stand and had to cross a small ravine that was about 30' deep and maybe 45' across. The edge I was on was also the edge of the woods from a farm field so there was some thicker undergrowth and a line of larger trees that made up the hedgerow.

Well standing in the roadway that I typically entered from I happened to look to my left and saw two deer bedded down. A smaller doe and a mid sized buck (maybe 8 point), down in this ravine. So i took aim and shot the Buck where it was sitting.

I didn't care about the doe so much as I had already gotten a meat deer that year. So as I watch the buck kick a few times I get on the radio to my father to bring the tractor with the bucket it it so we can field dress it and bring it back tot house.

Then I start walking up the hedgerow to go down into the ravine perpendicular to were I shot the buck.

Well I heard some shuffling and didn't think much of it, but as I came around a giant beach tree all I see is the white flag waving at me as the Buck is running away.

I look back to where I shot the thing, and there is blood and fur all over. So I think its got maybe a 100 yards on it and just wait for my father to get there.

Being just two sets of tracks leading away from where they bedded down and one set obviously being the doe, we set out tracking this thing. After a mile, my father calls it quits. He's up there in years and his property is covered with knolls and ravines and this buck went through just about every one of them.

I pressed on another mile or so, but never did find that thing. I have since switched to an 870 Express with a fully rifled barrel, and I haven't had another episode like that since.

When living in South Texas south of Beeville on the Nueces R, I witnessed a bullet 22-250 that penetrated only 1/2" of the shoulder. The ranchers son, on the other hand, was fond of using a 22 Hornet. I suspect the effectiveness of his Hornet was due to the lower velocity which did not cause the bullet to expand rapidly on impact, allowing it to enter the chest and expend all for its deathly energy. I never saw an exit, lending credence that one would want to bullet to stay inside for maximum energy transfer.

After reading an article by John Wooters, I chose the 7mm Express for my first deer rifle. Little did I know that the 280 is basically a 270 improved and would not work on South Texas spikes. It set up such a sonic wave that this layer of compressed air would cause the bullet to veer away as it approached the deer. I had first hand experience of having Ballistic Tips veer to the side and simply graze the neck, or be pushed downward as it approached the chest only to inflict only a wound in the leg. Thus, I traded that rifle on a faster 7Mag whose bullets would pass the sound waves and hit the deer where aimed. I did later move from south Texas to Arizona where the whitetail are not near as tough, as many later fell to a 270.

When I returned to hunt near Mathis, TX a few years later, I had a 300 mag in hand, which was much more suitable for the deer south of Beeville.

Doug~RR

Doug~RR

Remember a Time @ My Hunting Camp when a Young Hunter came for a visit. Said He was Hunting around Saratoga NY, in the Morning, Shot @ a Forkhorn, Running across a Field. Said that The Deer had out run the Bullet. He was using a 270 Win.. I told Him that I know that Saratoga has some pretty good Thorough Breds running @ The Flat Track, But They really ought to be Breeding that Bloodline of Whitetails, if They are that Fast.

will non premium bullets still kill a deer? Can you kill a deer with a 270 winchester shooting a 140 grain Hornady SST over 60 grains of RL22?

60 grs. of RL 22, @ a Short Range,Heavy Atmosphere,Low Cloud Cover, The Expanding Gases should do the Job, May not need the Copper & Lead. Might even Skin it for Yah, Too!