what are your guys thoughts about the .223 for deer? its def not common, but i hear of guys saying they use it. i am not goin to use it either way- i'd prefer .270.

Works just dandy, especially with the bullets today.

I figure if folks have no problems pointing a 270 shooting 150gr bullets at a 700 pound elk, dropping the diameter by 53 thousandths of an inch and cutting bullet weight in half ain't gonna be a problem for deer.

But a good bullet where it belongs and critter dies.

This is one of those lightning rod topics. Stand by for 5 pages of vitriol. I made the mistake of asking the same question several years ago on here.

The overall consensus around here as of the last time this was discussed was that in the right hands with the right bullet and the right shot placement and the right relative humidity . . .

. . . that was right around the first of the year. Let's see what the fashion is now.

Bullet and placement trump all.

Have often heard that.... and may have even witnessed it first hand in the field once or twice. <grin>

Ain't many things more simple than killing deer, though many enjoy complicating it.

So what brand/weight/bullet type?
Am thinking about setting up my M4 for my recoil sensitive girlfriend

Killed them with 64gr Power Points, 62 and 70gr TSX and 75gr Swifts.

Oops, strike that. I have WATCHED them fold with 70gr TSX's.

Have used 53gr. TSX, 55gr. TBBC, 60gr. NP, and 64gr. PP to great effect on deer and hogs. The TBBC even worked on a Red Stag.

There's been a bunch of 223/deer threads, seems like there's been even more pictures of the end result.

I like to sit down every once in a while ( with a nice mixed drink, or 2) and read some of the stuff posted in this one. Seems I always find something new in it to laugh at..it was pretty good.

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/1120347/page/0/fpart/1

I keep hearing they work great but I saw a doe shot with a .223 run a few hundred yards with a very light blood trail. The guy shot the deer off his picnic table with a bipod. The buzzards found the deer after we lost the trail. Many of the folks on this site are great hunters and shooters that I am sure are very successful using .22 centerfires. Not me! I am humble enough to admit that the extra power and size of a .30 cal helps my confidence and as a result I am very successful. No .223 for me and I would not recommend one for the average hunter.

Fine for NE Texas Deer. A buck might go 130 and a 100 lb doe is a bigun.

I plan on using one during the Thanksgiving doe days. I have some nice sierra 70s

Got into a discussion about this today with my father.

His exact words were "that caliber was designed to wound people an it will do the same on deer"

Needless to say, I'll be packin my .223 this year not only because I want to and am confident in it. But also so I can give him the oh so rare "told ya so"

mud bogger put the mojo on the deal when he said confident. That is half your battle right there. If you are confident in being able to hit the spot you are shooting at the 223 works like a charm. I've taken plenty with plain jane 55 gr hornadys to satisfy me.

BCR

The ONLY thing wrong with useing "plain jane" .22's is you'll get the lead pepper effect...they come apart as they are designed to. Deadly as hell but unless you like eating itty bitty pieces of lead you're better off useing a bullet that stays together...

Shot 3 with the 62TSX/223AI last fall. While none of the shots were long, I recovered no bullets. I've been shooting them (62TSX's) out a little bit farther this summer for testing. I've got them shooting sub-MOA out to 600yards. Figure that's good enough for what I want to do with them. I can tell you that anything under 400 is really in trouble. In all likelihood my shots are going to be under 200yds. Only killed one deer with a .224 centerfire over 250yds and that was via 22-250/75 A-max. I don't know how many wt's I've shot with the .224 centerfires, but probably about 10-12 (lose track of the does) but the only one I can recall that went more than 10 feet was poked in the lungs with a 75 A-max; That one went a whopping 30 yards before piling up. No exit with the little A-max, it completely came apart and lungs were nothing but soup. Center punched one through the shoulders with a 75 A-max a couple seasons ago and he didn't know what hit him. I don't foresee myself trying to break shoulders with the A-max anymore though, it was a wee bit lacking in the penetration dept.

I do agree with you guys that say having confidence in your rifle is half the battle. When you put a good bullet where it counts, does the deer care what's stamped on your casehead? I don't think they do, nor do I sweat it too much. Of course our deer arent' all that heavy, a good buck will go under 200#'s dressed. I've only seen a handful that were over 200#'s dressed. Seems like most of the ones I've weighed are in the 160-180# range.

Good "luck" to all you stunt shooter's this season (grin)

Totaly agree with you Miner. I was not advocating using 55 gr varmit bullets on deer and should have made that clear. I just meant that they worked fine as to killing. I just popped them through the lungs and it was Dear John sent your saddle home. A couple of jumps and lights out. There isn't enough meat on the ribs of a Texas whitetail to make a decent meal for a house cat anyway.
The 55 will work fine on hogs too and on a wild hog the backstraps is all I fool with anyway if those. Depends on how bad it stinks when I get up to where it is. Maybe take the hams if it is a good hog, cold weather and a good acorn crop so they are acorn fat.

The 53 TSX works w/o all the lead specks but plenty of bone shards if you want them

BCR

Everybody knows varmint bullets won't kill deer.

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth...r&topic=0&Search=true#Post654322

My hunting buddies and I are on a MLD lease together and have the privelege (sometimes becomes a job) of shooting 90+ deer a year and I can confidently say that a .223 in the right spot will do the job. However a .300wsm in the wrong spot will wound a deer for the buzzards. So it is going to be shot placement above all. killed with .204, .223, .243, .270, .300wsm, .325wsm,50 cal muzzle loader, and all sorts of arrows.

jprice,

I'm sure you just forgot to mention that the .325 WSM is the big Mac Daddy killer of them all!

(I like .325 WSM)

Go read some of the reviews of the 70 grain Speer softpoint bullet, 5 stars every time. I have 100 ordered, waiting on them to show up. People get anal about this stuff, if my silly pointy stick and string thingy kills the bejebus out of them I would be a fool to think a 223 into the same area of the deers body would not kill them, now shoot them in the a-- with anything and all bets are off. Also with bullets getting to be so expensive, the little ones seem to still cost a bit less.

adammada,

Of the two blacktails I shot, one DDRT and the other traveled about fifty feet. Way better than 175 Partitions from my 7-.300 Weatherby.

Life is uncertain. Hunt with what you want and eat desert first.

I've Killed Several with a 50GR B.T.{At 4000FPS}It's More About where you shoot'm, than what you shoot'm with.

60grain V-Max has worked fine on SC deer.
The 60grain partition gave total broadside penetration on those four does last season.

Mike

Learn to hunt, learn to shoot, load a good bullet, and the .223 is PLENTY.

Fail in any one of those four requirements, and the .223, .30-06, and perhaps the .50BMG won't be enough.

.223 is good enough, as is a .22 LR. I personally like a little bigger hole.

VAnimrod, just FYI you don't have to load a "good" bullet in a 30-06 to effectively kill deer. But you knew that.

223 for deer = inappropriate.

This fall I plan on trying a lung shot with a 55gr Trophy Bonded Bearclaw and the 60gr Nosler Partition. I'll keep you posted.

60 grn V-Max thru both lungs= dead deer.
Pick your shots and the 223 is a good deer round.

Have you shot or have you seen deer shot, with .224 Partitions or TSX's?

Opinions are like Belly buttons.
Everyone has one but some should be kept undercover!

Mike

I asked the ".223?" question back in the summer of 2002, and was seriously contemplating using my Mini-14-- even started cooking a load for it. I didn't hunt with it. I still haven't hunted with it. I probably won't hunt with it. Having seen numerous iterations of this same thread over the intervening years, I have seen a huge shift in the collective opinion. Back in 2002, the naysayers were legion. It was largely considered a stunt.

Nowadays, the herd seems to be shifting. I think the Internet has a lot to do with it. Folks who, a decade ago, would have never dreamed of hunting with a 223 Rem are meeting more folks that do.

Back in 2002, I gave up on the 223 Rem idea for the same reason I'm not hunting with it now. When I go to the rack and look, I have several better choices. My collection is skewed towards 30-something calibers, and when you have choices like 30-06, 308 Win, 30-30, etc. it is hard for me to pass them all by and grab something chambered for a 22-something.

I'm 50 now. I don't believe in the touted 4 stages of evolution of a deer hunter. However, I do think the idea of "Method" being a motivation to hunt is real. Method? Hmmm. Okay, let's see. I'm going to bypass all my favorite deer rifles, and . . .

. . .I've tried to end this missive three different ways. The bottom line is it probably ain't gonna happen. I just can't get past the idea that, despite .223 Rem being a good and wholesome deer killer, I have something better readily at hand.

Shaman, not trying to pick a fight, but your last sentence you state something better readily at hand. How do you define better? What makes 1 caliber better?

Thinking about using the caliber this year and just wanting to pick your brain is all.

I would suggest that "better" is subjective term. For instance, a 10 gauge shotgun might be considered a better goose gun than a .410. But what if the shooter is a small child?

Everyone knows a .223 will kill a deer. For some folks (me included) bigger holes are "better". Hit 'em with a stick if you want to, it don't bother me none. But PLEASE don't make me spend every night wandering around the woods looking for your deer when I should be sitting at the fire, drinkin' beer and playing the guitar.

He asked for our thoughts on the 223 for deer, I gave mine.
End of story.

I shot one with my 30-06 that left a light blood trial for awhile and then no blood trail. Ran 250 yds or so. I suspect that if either deer were hit where it was intended for the bullet to go they would have died quicker.

Sorry to offend you, Swift. I was just hoping to get some opinion based on experience, that's all.

They will kill a deer just as dead as anything else, but in my experience, smaller holes means less blood. Even the best placed rounds, of any caliber, can leave you with a tracking job. We don't have the benifit of snow, barren ground or visibility of more than a few feet around here, so I want BLOOD.

It seems that there's been more written on this subject (the 22 centerfires for deer)in the last couple of years than on the 270 vs 30-'06! That tells me something's happened, and not all are aware of it.
What I read on the anti side are things like;
I suspect...
I'd think...
Yeah well, what if...
and there's no mention of bullet type, unless there's a reference to M-16's in RSVN, or varmint hunting.

What I read on the pro side are things like;
I have...
I saw...
I've learned...
and there's mention of premium hunting bullets by name and weight.

All of which leads me to think that the pro side is speaking from experience with newer products, and is willing to learn new things; while the anti side is for the most part inexperienced, and clinging to hearsay based on outdated information.

So, am I reading the signs here correctly?

Pretty much...

BulletButt, there's some truth there, no doubt. I'll plead guilty to my share of that.

HOWEVER, on every one of the "major" .223 threads, there's always some people who chimes in with BAD experiences with .223 also. There's a couple on this thread I do believe. I have a friend who has personally now killed (3) deer with CF 22's and has had a bad experience each time... for different reasons... so let's not discount those data points (which the .223 advocates tend to do).

My position, since I first started gakking about this on the internet in maybe 1998 or so, is that I have not one iota of doubt as to whether or not .223 will kill deer. It will. Period.

What I DO doubt is that it's the best cartridge, all things considered. And when I pressed the issue with my infamous "Why use a .270 with all these great .223's around" thread, even a couple .22 CF advocates agreed that well, yeah, if they were going on a "serious" deer hunt, say a hard to get really good tag... they'd take something else.

I've learned a lot about .223 for deer on the Campfire. Some of it the hard way <g>. But it hasn't changed my opinion that for a normal able-bodied person, it's not the BEST choice.

Just my opinion... probably not worth much.

Bulletbutt, yeah you got it covered!

Dober

I'd not rule out the IQ of those having problems with them either.

Do you have permission to be talking to us?

When you start to see all my rifles in the classifieds I would start to worry, until then I think I'm good........

If it's all the same to you, I'll postpone my worrying until I buy the ones I want.

From what I've gathered, the guys that are using TSX's, Partitions, 64gr Powerpoints...kill deer, because they are using DEER bullets. I don't remember these guys talking about losing deer because they were so epuipped.
What impresses me is that a guy can hit and lose a deer and condemn the cartridge as inadequate when he never tells us what bullet he was using, or where the deer was hit, or he loses a deer after hitting it with what we all SHOULD know is not a DEER bullet There's definitely two sides to this story; and I think one side isn't listening to the ones who may have kept up with the learning curve.
Anyway, that's the impression I personally have gotten from this and other threads on the subject. I may be wrong, but that's my take on it.

Geez BB,

You mean the 270 is so much better with a 110 V-Max on the shoulder?

Seriously, I think there will be a lot of deer pics this year with blue tape, 22 CF's and the like this season, not that there's not enough proof already....

as in "how low can you go"?

Can I have dibs on the .223 AI?


Travis

If it comes down to that you can HAVE it

Dear Lord,
Please let this woman pull the bait and switch on Steelhead.


Alright, that's my last poke about the love thing. Best of luck.



Travis

Dibs on the Yellow Jacket McSwirley on the Model 7.

g

That be the Bumblebee that Travis is getting if I should end up that far down the drain. I wouldn't hold my breath though...

I think you are right, and I think it's great, and I'll do my best to buck up and be cheerful about it!

Hey: serious question since some of the .223 users are here...

How come the 60-gn Partition gets no love?

Glad I called dibs. That thing's a beauty ain't it?


Travis

It does...

I don't see my local Sportsman Warehouse, Dick's, GanderMountains carrying these "deer" rounds in .223rem.

Who's a good mail order place for these deer rounds, hopefully those with resonable S/H? Thanks

Factory?

Take your pick, Midway, Lock/Stock, etc.

It does, and it works very well and I know of some elk that'll give it no love whatsoever....grin

Dober

Jeff,

If you want to KNOW how the 60 Part. works I'm going for pigs in Oct.. I'm game. I'd do a late season deer but 22's aren't legal here..YET.

Of course Steely and others will probably be able to whack several more deer before then. He might do the Partition, but then his mug IS plastered all over Barnes publications; he is loyal (grins)

Don't confuse using good [bleep] and loyal.

I've killed 2 critters this year, neither with a Barnes.

The 53 grain Barnes is my favourite deer bullet.

If the results don't please you on deer - it's going to mean you did something wrong - it was not the fault of the bullet, the cartridge or the caliber.

This is true for more than just the 53 TSX...

Good schitt can make a fellow loyal; course guessing about everything else ain't your gig.

You run a 60 Part. at anything? Prolly a stupid question....

The 60 grain Partitions in the hands of my 4 year old kind of messed up the "in the hands of an experienced hunter" 223 exception last year...

Well, he is more experienced than a bunch of hunters out there, now that I think it through...grin.

Seriously - if deer aren't scared if he is within a couple hundred yards, they should be!

DJ

To add another element to the discussion, my youngest boy dearly loves his .22 Hornet. Stoked with 45gr. Nosler Solid Base he's been deadly on all manner of game from WT, exotics and hogs within 100 yards.

Bogus. No fault except for lack of diameter and weight.

You are dead wrong sir. Dead wrong.

Can't put the bullet where it belongs or never shot a deer with the topic of your comment?

Greg,

I thought I heard that Midway has steep S/H charges?? Oh, yes I was talking factory loaded rounds as I don't reload.


Leo

FOst,

There was a little silence after you posted the pics on the Africa forum I recall......those pictures of dead stuff can do that.

That was one good little pill.

Good point.

The .223 does seem like a good idea ... if you are hunting little DOES. Once you stop shooting little does or button bucks the .223's inadequacy will become obvious. Unless you like tracking.

Here's a place Leo...

You have to realize that in todays world buying a premium factory load, especially online, is not a small chunk of change...

http://www.ammosale.com/product.asp?keywords=223+Rem+60gr+Nosler+Partition&productid=31047

Think Federal is the only one who loads the 60 NP for a .223. Maybe Nosler Custom does as well?

Could you quantify or define the differences between shooting "a small doe or a button buck" and what you consider not "a small doe or button buck" and how a projectile inserted into a vital area of said deer will create a vastly different situation creating the "inadequacy" of the .223 that you proclaim to have knowledge of?

Are small does and button bucks "easier" to kill?

Thanks...

G,

You think he's saying he's shot enough big deer and small deer to come to that conclusion?

The use of the word "seems" strikes me as otherwise.

Greg,

Thanks for the link. You're right I didn't know that about S/H on ammo. Wow! This is not an inexpensive endeavor. Perhaps I should search harder for a local suppy and pay a little extra per box.


Leo

They'll only work on small deer, only to 201 yds, and oh by the way the world is flat....

Dober

Black Hills loads both 60g partitions and some TSX's

Hey... wait... I read that the world was ROUND in F&S! What gives?!

I've got a bunch of the 60-gn Partitions loaded up with a stiff charge of varget. They shoot well from my AR. I am counting on them to penetrate... uh... "deer sized" critters if necessary.

There's talk around the Olsen farm of filling my doe tag with a deer from here on our property this year. Deer populations were down in '91 when we bought it and all through the 90's for that matter. So I didn't hunt here. Now there's frikkin' deer all over and they are starting to be annoying. So anyway... in the spirit of being a "locavore" (local food eater) my wife has come around to the idea of me reminding them who's boss around here.

If it plays out that way, I'll use my black gun .223 with those 60-gn Partitions and report what I see!

I just told my best gun pard to bitch-slap me if my next bolt rifle isn't a .223 too... I need something cheap to practice with.

So you guys are beating me down, slowly but surely!

Hey you know the family from the Fire we all want to help so if you wish we can all bitch slap you.......ork ork ork

Dober

I figured I'd have noooo problemo finding volunteers around here!

[/quote]

You are dead wrong sir. Dead wrong.

Can't put the bullet where it belongs or never shot a deer with the topic of your comment? [/quote]

I can appreciate your passion for the .224 bore as I truly love them myself. But, wanting something does not make it so.

I have no more passion for a .224 bore as I do for a .243, a .264 bore, or a .308.

You should try said topic before providing "experience" sir. Point is that a "small doe or button buck" dies just as easily as an 8-pointer given you do your job.

Just how big a boy are ya anyway there Dober?

By the way, this is far and away my favorite Field and Stream Reader topic...grin....

You guys do have ENTIRELY too much fun on these threads...

It's fun for me as people are purely speculating about something they've never done or they tell the world of their shooting abilities...grin...

Guilty. Of extrapolating downward from calibers I HAVE used and making assumptions from that.

Apparantly that doesn't hold water with .223 for whatever reason(s).

But I promise you THIS, mister <grin>... if I do whap a doe with a 60-gn Partition and it don't perform up to my standards you guys will hear all about it for the rest of your days!

You sure about that.... <grin>







My youngest boy with either his .22 Hornet or .223 would beg to differ....

That was Steve_NO and his son.


.22 Hornet in Africa

They both obviously had a great trip across the pond.... <grin>

petr,

Can you hear that bully from The Simpsons in the background? Ha Haaa!

That boy can shoot FOsteology, nice pics.


Travis

Nice "does" and "button bucks";

Thems the pics I like!

Doing and speculating; wouldn't think there would be such confusion on the issue.

Jeff O, you know the saying about riding a moped....

Sorry FOst,

Just goes to show. TWO young men? Who'da thunk!


"That boy can shoot, FOstology" = CAN SHOOT = very helpful

No, I don't... dare I ask?

G,

I have killed north of 80 whitetails with a .22 bore of some flavor. I'm no expert for sure. However, I would be surprised if you found anyone that has spent more time and money on the .224 idea for deer than I.

I spent the most time, reloading, and money with a custom HCR .224 TTH, which accounted for most deer taken out to 440 yards. There are not many .224 bullets that I have not used in the field. Although I never used the Barnes. The .224 75 gr AMAX at 3600 fps is a personal favorite, which makes spectacular instant kills. I do love my 223 AI also. What is not to like about shooting a calm rifle and watching the shot through the scope?

My point was you guys are romanticizing this little round for what it is not. Sure it will kill, but there will rarely be a blood trail and the shot must be perfect. I kind of like all this support and wish it was around in 1999 when I started this experiment.

I could care less what you use, just don't make rookie statements about it and get fluffed when I call you on it. There are three fellows that followed my lead with a .223 and have wounded a lot of deer. I did not stick around long enough to ask them what happened because they were idiots, but I digress. To each his own.

.....they sure are fun, but you wouldn't want your friends seeing you with one.

I think I'm going to try to shoot a deer with my XP-100 in 221 Fireball. If I succeed we'll know for sure a 223 will work, since the Fireball is a measly little thing..

Fos,

Looks like your boy is a darn genius. Looks like an expert to me.

Not an expert by any means..... but he puts in a great deal of time with practice and even at a young age knows his limitations with what tools are at his disposal.

Fair enough friend. You are different than the usual masses as you apparently have experience and I can appreciate that. It is a welcome change from the usual. Try a TSX with your TTH on deer, you will be amazed I think.

As far as calling me on a rookie statement I won't get into a pissing match of experiences or how many deer we've shot with .22's. I'll just say I've shot a "few" with a .223 and similar rounds. We make around 300 pounds of venison sausage a year not counting our steaks and we're almost out.

Disagreeing with experience is one thing. Disagreeing on speculation is another. I'm glad we do on the former. And it sounds like your friends need to go to the range.

Take care...

I will add that bullet makes all the difference on blood trails and penetration, IME.

I've killed a bunch of deer and other stuff with the 223 with lots of different bullets, but I've yet to see a deer stop a 60 grain Partition - including shots breaking both shoulders, one shoulder, and a behind the shoulder shot at around 200 yards by one of my girls where she had to hurry and hit a little high - broke the spine and knocked a big hole through a 100 lb plus doe on the way out.

I haven't run the TSX's - am liking the 60 grain remanufactured Blackhills stuff too well to change, especially when it shoots so well in the "kids" Model 7 223. Two daughters and a son put venison in the freezer with it last year.

DJ

g,

Pse excuse the rookie comment. You're spot on.

I might try the barnes tsx. I assumed, hopefully wrongfully, that a tsx would punch right through, not cause enough shock damage, and then leave a poor blood trail.

I never had to track, but I was way overkill in accuracy, scope and effort.

the problem is one of us makes the kill w/ .224 look very easy and then some idiot comes along w/o our facination for detail and makes a damn mess of it. I have four girls under 13, so I will be using a .224 for some time.

62gr TSX exit on a maybe 100 pound deer. No major bones hit, pard nailed if a bit far back through the liver. Unless you've experienced August Rain Forest thick, you don't know just how thick it is up here. Left a blood trail a blind man could have followed.



Concerning folks using wrong bullets, not shooting worth a hoot etc, you can't legislate stupid.

Killing deer is easy.

And no I haven't used the 60gr Partition on any critters. About the only bullet my 223AI doesn't like.

I'm as likely to have it stuffed with 64gr Power Points, 75gr Swifts or 62gr TSX's when I'm worried about stuff that bites back.

Holy crap. that is one serious hole!

whoosh.....right over my head what is it your trying to say?

Thx
Dober

Glad he didn't ask me, I'd have told him as big around as a Dinty Moore beef stew can..........

Dober is as big as a Dinty Moore can?

At least that clears the mystery of your latest love ... and assures it will remain unrequited ...



GE

Perv

Dober,

I think he's asking if your looking for a petr...

I could be wrong?

Are the rest of us "allowed" to use petr's experience as a data point, is the real question ("Sure it will kill, but there will rarely be a blood trail and the shot must be perfect"). Seems like the way these .223 threads work, is ANY positive experience is allowed, first hand or not, but any negative experience has to be first hand.

Not looking for a fight, but it does go to the heart of what annoys me about these threads. Fer instance, I can relate the (3) bad experiences that a guy I know well, in the flesh, has had with CF .22's on deer, and get yelled at for not having done it myself...

Oh Jeff...

I know, I know, what was I thinking...

Whatever makes you happy Jeff.

On a different subject, what's your experiences with hunting Sitka Blacktails (obviously you need to have never done it, just look up some of my threads and let me know your secondhand experiences)...

For the record, I only use someone else experiences if I was there watching the entire thing. Like the deer pictured above, I saw it first, my pard shot it, I found the blood trail and the deer. We dressed it out.

I don't tell what I haven't done or seen with my own eyes. YMMV

I would really like to get some experience on those Sitka's sometime! It looks like great fun. Similar to the type of blacktail hunting I do, but with lots more critters and higher success rates, MUCH higher. What's not to love about that? Sign me up! :-)

My point is simply that while I believe you, I really do, that you have seen great success with your .223AI on deer, there's aways people who participate in these threads who report more marginal results. Hard to just ignore that, wouldn't you agree?

Nope, I've never had much problem ignoring idiots. Well, until now obviously......................grin

thats funny, right there!!

You sure that deer wasn't just sick or a chronic smoker? <grin>

I see this whole "love" thing hasn't mellowed you. Thank goodness. A kinder, gentler Steelhead would just be... wrong.

I don't doubt Dober or Gmoney's or Steelie's experiences, but I also don't doubt petr and TexasRick's (just to name a couple off the top of my head). It leaves me not knowing what to think about the round. Which always seems to leave me not real interested in using it, since my deer come hard and mean a lot to me. I don't WANT to have to carefully wait for a perfect angle, and I don't want to shoot shoulders, and I don't want to have to use a frikkin' TSX for deer, either.

So there! See, I'm in love all the time and it hasn't mellowed me either!

Why wouldn't you want to use a TSX? I bet the 60gr Partition is a real deer killer, but why wouldn't you want to use a TSX? Just curious, because they sound to me like they would be the best of the bullets mentioned by the guys who successfully use the 224 cal on deer.

BulletButt, what I mean, and ALL I mean, is that I don't want to HAVE to use a TSX. Sorry. I phrased that wrong.

I can load my favorite deer whacker with just about any old bullet and it seems to work great...

IME you don't have to use a TSX but you sure could and can. I wouldn't use all of the 22 bullets available, but then again in many other cals I wouldn't use every bullet available either.

Bullets I've seen used in various 22's (including the 223)and they all worked well are as follows:

52 NSB
55 NSB
60 NSB
60 NPT
55 NBT
60 Horn
60 Horn HP
55 Horn w/c
55 TB
53 TSX
64 Win

and last but not least my fav the 63 Sierra

Dober

And I know I'll forget a few

Yep, I trust the 64gr Power Point completely, and I'm thinking at about $10 per 100 that trumps many of Jeff's cheapo bigger diameter bullets.

I do like that price. Did I mention on this thread that my next bolt rifle is a gonna be a .223? Price to run it and lack of recoil being the number one reasons.

I want to run heavy bullets though and I was looking yesterday, and Remington just does 1:12 twists unless I missed something. I like to at least start with a M700 because I like the action for a rebarrel later... so dunno what to think of that. Will 1:12 stabilize 64's?

It should

Jeff-I've yet to see a 14 twist that wouldn't shoot the 64 Win and the 63 Sierra very well so I can't imagine an issue with the 12.

Dober

I did advise of more marginal results. I did so because I have seen poor shots.

But, truth is I never personally had track a deer or hog shot w/ a .224. Not once. Not even three decent bucks in Lousiana and each one of those were body/lung shots. Hooves up every time. While it strikes like lightning, physical damage has never been visibly great with hide on. Exit wounds are small. I was often shocked at the lack of muscular/bone damage on animals over 150 lbs, even though organs are usually scrambled.

So maybe that makes it a purely emotional response for me and not the obvious reality I've encountered. No pie plate holes happening.

I don't fully understand why some rifle combos are so lethal and defy theory. I do know I would not bet against Steelhead and his puny .223AI mojo. I do strongly believe that the .224 blossoms over 3500 fps. But again that is based on observations butchering and not at the shot.

I was also considering the 64gr win powerpoints, mainly because they're cheaper than TSX or partitions.

I'll tell you something else, that 75gr Swift is one wicked little bastard, along with the 62 and 70gr TSX. The above deer is the only one that has gone more than 5 yards after being shot with a 223.

64gr Power Point, actually made a small hole on the offside shoulder but didn't quite make it through. Weight is 57grs, distance to deer was 25 yards.

Any idea of just HOW heavy a 1:12 will stabilize?

Gonna shoot long range with it..

Length not weight, speed also factors.

1-8"ish is where it's at for running it far. YMMV

Are any factory tubes 1-8?

It's good to see some Power Points being put to work. I'm a big fan of the PP.

GunTests.com said-

"Winchester Power Point. This relatively inexpensive bullet, which we think is a best buy, gave the best expansion in both water and bone of any of the bullets tested. The retained weight and impact energy rivaled the bonded bullets. If you�re watching expenses closely, this load, at about half the price of the bonded bullets, is the choice for you."

They preferred the Swift AF and Speer TBBC but said that the PP-

"Because of its low price and top performance, the Winchester Power Point Soft Point is a best buy."

This was from an article testing 30 caliber bullets for the 300 Win.

I see. Yes, I did misunderstand what you meant.

Will a 53grain TSX fly reasonably well in a 1-7 twisted gun?

I run a 1:8 's

Don't see why not. It bugholes in my 1-8 Ackley.

Jeff-I could be wrong but it seems to me that the Tikka is a 8 in the 223.

Royce from here has one and it is a shooter no doubt!

Dober

Tikka is an 8.

I've got one, and it shoots everything well. I've killed deer with a bunch of bullets out of it, and a few coyotes with 40 NBT's.

DJ

Are the Tikka's easy to rebarrel?

Honestly, I'd just shoot it out, sell it for $300 and then go buy another for another $480.

Dober

$480... that's cheap. And the beast will probably shoot too, dang it all <G>.

This is the varmint model for about $700. Bet THIS sucker shoots!!

http://www.berettausa.com/product/rifles/series_page.cfm?currentseries=28

I understand whilst it is twisted 1-8", the mag don't allow for the 75gr A-max, course I ain't ever touched on to verify.

And ironically, while I have had good results with both of the here-named bullets in both 12 and 14 twists, I have been less enthusiastic about 60 SPs or HPs in either. I don't know why other than ittsy-bittsy shape issues. I think it is fair to say that the big boys - Winchester, etc- do know something about what it takes to make bullets fly well even though, in their mass-producing hugeness, we don't always see their products match the precision of some of the smaller bullet makers.

Sorry, I've been away all week, and I haven't been around to answer this. Mind you this is IMHO, and I freely admit I have not touched off a 223 round at a deer.

Better? I'd say that "better" is a largely subjective thing. How I feel about a round means as much or more than what I can objectively use to define it. "Better" comes down to this:

1) Am I confident? With all those 30-somethings, I know that the cartridge will work with devastating results. If I pulled out one of my ground hog guns to go deer hunting, I know all those other rifles would be laughing at me after I closed up the safe. They do that,you know. I can hear them.

2) What am I trying to prove? Everyone has a motivation when they hunt. Some guys want to prove they can do it with a muzzleloader or a stick and string. Some people want to prove a bigger bullet or faster bullet work. Been there. Done it. Killing deer has become somewhat anti-climactic for me. The real joy has become the year-round process associated with deer and turkey hunting. I have become far less experimental with what I shoot. Right now, the big thing I'm trying to prove is that you really can train deer to eschew steep ravines and run towards the truck when shot. Any help in that regard would be appreciated.

3) What are the risks? If I screw up, who or what really bears the burden of my failures? In most of the scenarios it's the game, rather than me. If you contemplate that thought for 26 seasons, it will make you conservative. It will also get you reloading well off the maximum.

4) Tradition. I grieved all over again when the deer rifle my buddy sold me before he died went tits-up. It had been 15 years since he passed, but it was like yesterday. I got angry at him all over again for selling me that quirky used Rem 742. You have hours and hours sitting alone in a stand. Feeling the same wood, looking through the same scope count for a lot.


Now, having said all that, I can say that if you have an urge to hunt with .223 Rem, by all means follow that urge. When you pick at a shaman's brain, you end up with a lot of fluff.

The Tikka mag definitely doesn't allow 75gr A-maxes as it comes from the factory. There is however room for Tikka/Sako/Beretta to open up the magazine to allow their use. It looks like it would be relatively easy to modify the mag for this purpose, but it is hard to convince myself to do it as the magazines are just under $70 apiece. It sort of sucks having to single load the long 223 loads into the action as the opening is not exactly generous.

I'm dealing with pretty much the same thing on my hawkeye. Had to shove the 75gr A-max in quite a ways. Didnt stick a mic on it but the top of the boat tail is about even with the shoulder on the case.

Its still a tad to long and reduced the capacity down to 3 shells as the tip of the first bullet catches on the bottom of the feed ramp. I'm okay with that though as long as I can get it to shoot.