All,
Does anyone have any suggestions/experience on an outfitter for a trophy mule deer hunt? Maybe even with the potential to add an antelope as a combo, but not mandatory.

Thank you in advance.

What's your price range?

Pretty flexible. Quality animals is the key. There are for sure 3 of us (potentially up to 6) and we would prefer to pay more knowing that the area holds some true trophy animals. I am not saying we looking for canned hunts for booners, but I don't want to spend a fortune walking around an area that has nothing but immature deer either.

Comanche Wilderness Outfitters Inc. - Scott Limmer
PO Box 236, Livermore, CO 80536
Phone: 970-223-5330
Email: [email protected]

What kind of trophy qualities are you wanting?

Thx

Dober

I would love to say a 30" muley, but we are also realistic. We understand that it is impossible to guarantee 200" animals, but we would love opportunities at dandies.

For absolute top end trophies, and probably $$$ to match, Sonora, MX and Alberta cannot be beaten. These are areas where tags are guaranteed. As is usual, do your homework (I can help you with MX if that's what you decide). Landowner tags are possible on the E Plains of Colorado, especially so with bow and muzzleloader and some gaggers are killed there every year, as with W. Kansas (draw only now). Colorado has put more trophies in B&C by far than anywhere, and big bucks are found throughout the state. The really tough to draw areas like limited entry Utah, Nevada, the AZ strip and Kaibab have very big bucks but tags extremely hard to get. E Montana has respectable bucks and (165"-175") is reasonable expectation, with expensive guaranteed tags and high success. I would highly recommend doing your homework and looking into Sonora. Huge bucks are there (and still rare regardless of what you read), and the Sonoran experience is like none other. I've been twice and really want to go back. Hopefully this helps a little, and I'll be happy to try and answer anything I can. If I don't know I'll tell you the truth.

Thank you for the feedback JG.
I did some searching about Sonora and Alberta. I will have to dig a little deeper.

We hunt Colorado Elk every other year and I know that certain areas especially the south west had a huge winter kill last year and I heard they are getting pounded again. That doesn't mean anything for the eastern part of the state though.

Once again I appreciate the feedback and keep it coming if any other useful info comes to mind. I will keep you informed as we start to lean one way or the other.

I priced some Eastern CO mule deer hunts and they ran $7 - $10K. The Kiowa Creek ranches (10K) have deer in the 180 to 200 class according to one of their guides. Heck for a little more you could go to Africa.

Check out Three Forks Ranch and Piney Valley Ranch in Colorado.

Both have the kind of bucks you're looking for. Bring your wallet, and somebody else's money, too.

A trophy hunt 2-3 years ago may be this years bust. I would recommend several sources. A good booking agent like Ray Atkinson that posts here. Ray will know the current hot spots. I wouldn't thing about booking an expensive hunt with out hunting reports from SCI & The Hunting Report. These are written by actual hunters. I have submitted quite a few. You can request individual states/Providences or a package of reports on Mulies . I would also suggest you talk to Doug Luger the Manager of Trophy Records at SCI. Doug's ph. is 520-620-1220 ext.265 & he can advise where the best mulie trophies are being taken. Plan on 7-12K for a top mulie trophy hunt. I was offered to be put on a waiting list in Utah(I believe) by an outfitter this past year where 30-36" mulies were supposodly being taken. Hunt was "only" 15K with a kicker if above a certain B&C score. I passed since I can hunt lots of animals in Africa for less. Good hunting.

If the parameter is hitting the magical 200" mark (or even close) than my choice would be Sonora also. Thirty inch mule deer are there and you will see them. I suggest Arrow 5 Outfitters as they are having an amazing season (they are hunting now) and have taken several bucks over 30" this year. I would also suggest adding Coues deer to any Sonora trip - those litte deer are quite the challenge. Check out Arrow 5 @ http://www.arrowfiveoutfitters.com/html/mexico.htm.

I am spoiled by Sonora. Having guided down there, and seeing all the monster bucks I seen, I still dream of the hunts.
On two opening days, one with rickbin, we seen 3 good 30" plus bucks and rick took a 31 incher that day. The second opening day I was with akjeff. We musta seen 4 bucks over 30 and a couple in the high 20's(27 to 30).
For sure Sonora has the big bucks. Do the research tho. You got some screw jobs down there. If they talk big talk and make it sound sweet, ask for references and check up on them. Don't drop money till you do that. Like mentioned above, add a coues deer. The desert flats hold those big NT and typical bucks that are scoring high in the books. You may see one you may not, but at least if you do you got that chance to kill one. The realistic chacne of a 30 incher or 180/190 plus is there.

Then again alberta has some toads! Look into there.

Those are the two realistic place to find what you are looking for and be successful. You may find a few places here in the US, but to me nothing beats Sonora.

Kique

Checkout this link http://www.coloradooutfitters.org/bestofspecies/site.pl?page=muledeer

I feel for you Cacciatore, trying to get a group to agree on an area, price, and outfitter, not even knowing the size of group.

That is the reason I just go alone to wherever I really want to hunt. Now that I have gotten "old" there is not enough seasons left to persuade others to go where I want to go.

I got a decent mulie hunting in Alberta with Ameri-Cana Expeditions

Thanks everyone.....keep 'em coming.

Thanks StrayDog, but our deal is this. I pick the hunt I want to go on. Two of the guys (my buddy and my Dad) said they trusted me doing my research and were in on whatever I select. They know I wouldn't pick a half baked hunt and spend my or their money on "marginal". The other 3 guys said that once I picked the location, type, and cost, they would let me know before I book. I told them that there may not be enough spots where I pick without their up front committment. They agreed that it's tough luck for them and if they snooze, they lose.

It is a bit stressful knowing that if it doesn't go as well as the expectations, I will hear about it for a long damn time.

I almost booked a hunt out there this past year. I found muzzleloader/bow hunts in Oct for app $4000, and late rifle hunts for $6000. Fully guided, no frills, no fancy lodging, etc.

Cacciatore-perhaps I missed it but what kind of budget are you talking about for the hunt only (not the travel and such).

Thx

Dober

You could save a large chunk of cash and have a significantly more rewarding time by just forgetting about the outfitter. You could do some research, invest in some decent gear, and do it on your own on public land in places that have tags that are not so tough to draw, and bucks that would make almost any hunter happy. By choosing that route, you could do 2 or 3 hunts in the next 3 or 4 years for the price of one outfitted hunt. Just something to consider.

For openers, a gas thirsty 4x4 pickup ain't exactly cheap.

I agree with StrayDog; for a concerted effort at a big mule deer at todays costs,I would not hunt with an outfit that agreed to take a party of 6.I would even be skeptical of a camp that tried to accomodate that many...maybe I'm spoiled, but I've spent too much money on those kind of hunts.My biggest bucks have all come when I was in a small camp, or hunting good country on my own.

Ditto that.

However DIY hunts ain't for everyone.
I know my spike camps ain't and I'm sure yours aren't either Kurt.

Big, real big muleys are about the toughest nut to crack these days.
Everyone wants them and there ain't many of them.

Sonora, extremley limited quota draws, high dollar private land hunts and expensive landowner tags tip the odds in your favor for sure.
As an example, how many years does it take to draw a unit 10 or 21 Colorado deer tag these days? 10, maybe 14 years?...The Arizona strip, the Henry's?

As Greenhorn said, there are other ways, but the odds usually ain't good and the
The bigger your budget, the better your odds.

As for DIY...the 5/6 of us hunt Colorado every even year on public land out of our tent set up at 9600 feet and do DIY. I remember in 2006 (before fuel prices shot up) it cost less than $900 a head including fuel, food, licenses, everything. We average about 3 elk per hunt and in that 2006 hunt my uncle shot a 300"+ 6x6. This past year I was fortunate enough to take a 250" 5x5.

We love the DIY hunt and are all about it. In fact none of us have ever had a guide involved in a hunt.....and my Dad and Uncles have been hunting a lot of years.

This is probably a one shot deal...once in a lifetime. That is why we want to make sure we do it right. We don't plan on making a habit to involve an outfitter (obviously unless law requires it).

With our Colorado elk hunt, we know we are going to be going back, so each year we learn and improve, knowing that the next hunt we will be better and have another crack at them. For that reason, we are not in search of an elk hunt, because we will hunt them during our DIY hunt. Same story with Whitetails....we hunt them every year on our property in WI.

We are looking for a hunt that we may not have a chance to do again....for that reason we want to give all participants a good chance at a trophy of a lifetime....because it may be the only time in our life.

If we had nothing but time, were all single, with no kids.....we would just do DIY hunts for elk, whitetails, muleys, moose, etc. every year. But that isn't the case. So we choose to hunt Elk regularly (every other year) as a DIY, whitetails regularly (every year) as a DIY, and we are thinking about one shot at a dandy muley.

WOW...what a lot of babbling. Sorry.

P.S. Hunting to us is also all about camaraderie as hunting partners/friends/family.....so we do it together for better or for worse.

Lots of fun things to be planning here and for me the planning is a whole lot of fun.

What kind of budget for the outfitter part are you looking at?

Thx

Dober

I guess considering we are also looking into a bow/rifle canadian caribou hunt which run around the $7k mark, I would say that is the upper end.

Don't get me wrong. If we can find a quality hunt for half that price, we will jump at it.

You could go it on your own the Alaska for bou's with your party and have a blast. Hire someone to drop you off for a week and do it basically all on your own.

I did this in the early 90's and had a super time.

Dober

This is excellent advice from a veteran muley hunter, and I couldn't agree more.

If this is a once in a lifetime deal for you I would just draw in various states and DIY. I would not count on any outfitter producing a 30"+ deer with any amount of money. It might happen but the odds are not in your favor on a one time hunt, No matter how much smoke they try to blow up your ass and money they take from you. I have seen an equal amount of really big mulies in Wyoming and Colorado on both Public and Private land. It's the time spent researching, scouting and area and then hunting it that will reward you.

I'd argue that. Better yet disagree with you.
A few years back, I guided for Duwane Adams up in the Kaibab. There was 12 guides, 2 cooks and 10 hunters. Plenty of room for everyone, plenty of area on the west Kaibab for all to hunt and we all had a great time. And thats not including the other camp on the east side of the Kaibab that didn't camp with us. I think there was 4 hunters in that group.
Some of the bigger outfitters in Sonora accommodate about 5 or 6 hunters per group. And they are hunting 50,000 acres plus.
So I disagree with you guys. Tho I can see an issue of there was 6 hunters hunting say 5,00 acres or something small like that, but as big as some of the areas are. 6 is not too many if the accommations, guides, cooks, transportation and area allows for it.

Kique

"Just Draw"
All that reasearch and scouting is for naught if you can't draw the tag.
1-2% draw odds real common in the hottest units in the west unless you spend the $$$$ for landowner tags.
My buddy has been buying LO tags in Colorado for the last few years and if I recall he pays about $4500 to $5000 for the tag alone.

No kidding really I didn't know that, thanks for enlightening me.

No Problem.
Just Draw.

Enrique, do you know Jeff Wyckoff? I used to hunt & guide with him, but lost touch over the years. He called his service Arrowhead Outfitters & was from Munds Park.

Anyway, Jeff would be my go-to guy for anything Arizona. For New Mexico, I've heard good things about Ross Johnson.

http://www.rossjohnson.com/

Sounds like a great reason to go on a outfitted hunt!
Good luck to you all.

Ross Johnson passed away in 2008.

IMO, your best choice is Old Mexico if the parameter are (1) trophy mule deer (2) once in a lifetime (3) and you don't have 20 years to draw one of the covedted tags which doesn't help a group.

If you have any thoughts of a combination hunt (elk/deer), take a look at Montana's guaranteed/outfitter sponsored tags. A big mule deer will be the challange, but the elk are back. An outfitted hunt on horseback might be the adventure of a lifetime.

eblues,
Sorry never met either of the two. I have heard good thing about Jeff tho. And there is no doubt he is a good outfitter. I am just spoiled having Duwane as a friend along with many of his guides. For that reason I have learned to hunt, guide and outfit. Duwane has taken some big bucks and bulls so for me its a no brain to go with the person I know best.
I am friends with a lot of outfitters and guides, but when it comes to Mule deer, I don't know many that could best Duwane on the Kaibab. If I drew a strip tag, I would switch gears and go with Chad smith. To me he is one of the best of there, I see him and Ryan Hatch tied for the best strip hunters. But I know Chad and he is a good friend.
Call me Biased.

Enrique,

The reason I asked was remembering Jeff mentioning that he knew & hunted with Duwane Adams. I know what you mean though, if you find someone really good to hunt with, there's no reason to change.

Well dang Toolelk, I'm sorry to hear about Ross. Do you know what happened to him?

He had a heart attack while pouring cement.
Not a very glamorous way to go.

Ctore,
Give Stu Massey a call in Craig, CO. Northwest Colorado Ranching for Wildlife. I haven't talked to Stu in awhile but have taken several nice Mule Deer hunting with NWCRW in years past. They leased ranches in units 11 and 211, 12, 13, 22, and 23 and at one time had a lease in unit 10. They are a great bunch of guys to hunt with and have ranch house accommodations.
Last I heard though booking this late was normally a problem. The Ranching for Wildlife programs are neat because they have the tags (draw not necessary). There fees were very reasonable and the animal quality was always real good.
Region G in Wyoming but you gotta have points to draw. There are several good outfitters in Jackson and Alpine and hunting the Bridger is pretty good Mule Deer hunting. Check out the pics of the Muleys on Jackson Hole Outfitters web site. I've hunted with those guys and am probably going back this year.
The bucks don't get much bigger than some of those on their web site. Biggest Muley I have ever seen I saw in Bridger. Unfortunately I couldn't close the deal.
One things for sure and as anyone posting here will probably tell you the same thing be in shape and be prepared to do a lot of glassing and hunting either on foot or on horseback. 170"-200" Muleys aren't standing under every Cedar and make sure your sleeping with your rifle.

Good Luck,
Dave

Kique:You're of course free to disagree with me,and you no doubt look at this from a guide/outfitter perspective....I might live long enough to draw a Kaibab tag

If I did, you can bet I would not be in camp with 6 others;I know Duane Adams reputation ,which is great;but the Kaibab is not a realistic expectation for someone who wants to hunt each year,so it can hardly be regarded as "typical".The same applies to any special draw unit that attracts lots of attention.You can spread out 6 guys because the tags are limited.You can grow old waiting for one of those tags.

With very few exceptions anymore, I no longer bother with the US for mule deer;I go to Canada instead.I have been on enough of the "typical" guided hunts in the West to know that opportunities for success(remember we are talking about "my" or "your" chances at a BIG mule deer)are just not very good.

Also, the "typical" guided hunt in the West runs 5-7 days,which could be 4-6 days more than you need; but IMO no where near enough time.If I cannot go for at least 10 days, I won't bother.This year I hunted 14 consecutive days; it was not "enough" time...

Bob,
That why I like you. We can agree to disagree. You ever get a Kaibab tag let me know. I'll hunt with you.

Kique

Kique: Let's hunt! I want a Coues deer!

Bob:

How many years would you think (guess)it would take for a Kaibab tag?

I have 12 or 13, and yeah....old.

I am not a mule deer expert by any means, but hunt them a lot here in MT and have lucked out and drawn some of the best tags in the west.

I wouldn't put all my eggs in one basket with one hunt. You might book a hunt in a really good area, but conditions of hot weather, full moon, drought year, and many other things can mess up what seemed like a slam dunk. Just ask the guys who drew rifle deer tags in the AZ Strip in 2007. The hardest hunt any of the outfitters have ever had. Some nice bucks taken, but few.

Would you want the "Hunt of your dreams" to be shattered based on such conditions?

I prefer to go on as many "good" hunts as possible, knowing these good hunts are easier to draw, less expensive, and can be done every other year or so. As such, your odds of finding a really nice buck in a series of "good" hunts is much greater than if you bank on one "great" hunt. And, you get to spend more days/years hunting, rather than dreaming about the year you finally draw that great tag.

Almost every "good" hunt in the west has potential, and almost every "great" hunt is filled with unrealistic expectations (the exception being the AZ Strip in 2008, which was a once in a century kind of year).

If an outfitter tells you the chances of a 190+ buck are good, be skeptical. A 190 buck is so huge that most people think it is a 220 buck. Many outfitters don't see 190 bucks.

Someone mentioned it above. If I had the inclination to go guided and wanted to hunt an area that is relatively easy to draw or had landowner tags, I would contact Scott Limmer at Commanche Wilderness Outfitters. His Eastern Colorado deer hunts are probably the best opportunity to hunt areas with large mule deer and not have to rely on "Lottery" luck to draw a tag. Even with Scott, you will have to hunt very hard to see the kind of bucks you are talking about. Or, get a good streak of luck.

Ditto on the 190+ buck.....few and far between. The 200" or 30" benchmark is setting the bar extremely high. If that were important, I would save my nickels and head to Sonora. If I wanted to hunt high mountain mulies with horses and an outfitter, Colorado would be at the top of the list.

I have quickly glanced over much of this thread....sorry if I missed a price point that you are trying to stay under....

I am from Alberta and know some pretty damn good mulie outfitters up here. Alberta has been doing very well for big mulies the past couple years and there are quite a few good options if you're looking to put a 180++ deer on the ground.....

Toss me a PM if you want any information on the outfitters....most of them are $7500-9000 for a trophy rifle hunt, and several offer good archery hunts killing bucks in the 180's as well during the archery hunts.

I have some friends that hunted Alberta this year and had a great time and killed bucks in the 170's to 190's for under $6000. The outfitter they went with also offers a combo muledeer/elk/whitetail hunt which is real rare to find.They booked there hunts through www.premierhuntingadventures.com.
I have booked other hunts through this agent and never had a bad hunt and would think it would be worth your while to check his website out. He also offers Sonora Mule Deer hunts and many other deer hunts that may interest you. I have a Alberta Mule Deer hunt booked for 2010 through premier hunting adventures and a Nebraska Mule Deer/Whitetail hunt booked for 2009. Check his website out and give him a call.

I have several ranches that can and do produce Boone and Crocket deer each year, many in the 180 class and always a few in the 200 plus class..These ranches are in Texas and Southern New Mexico. I have brochures and pictures if your interested..

In NM I have a 100,000 ac. ranch that can produce 160 to 190 class Mule deer. It is a non guided hunt with a bunkhouse to stay in and your on your own other than the foreman will show you where he has been seeing the big boys...The owner only allows two hunters per year to keep his gene pool going..$5000 per hunter...I have seen some real monsters on this ranch but since your on your own I am guessing a 60% successs rate on bucks over 160. If you are a tough sho nuff hunter you will probably get a shot at one of the big boys...

I have 3 ranches in Texas owned by the same people and they shoot 3 bucks each year and all are over 200 B&C but your not allowed to shoot lesser bucks. Fully guided on huge land holdings. booked up 3 years in advance right now..Sand hill ranches, cut sign and track only, and real tough hunt, and you must be in top phyical condition. if you are the above then you will get a monster..Walking from dawn to dusk in that deep sand is brutal but success is inevitable if you can keep up the pace, sleep on the track and go again the next day. We shot a 234 B&C at 14 yards 4 years ago. Last year a 214 and two more about that.

I have another ranch near the above that has a couple of openings for 2009, and they shoot 160 to 200 B&C deer. 4 day hunts $3000 for the hunt and $3000 for the kill. 30,000 acres of mountains. Spot and stalk type hunting and its much easier than the sandhill ranches.

For more information check out my web page or contact me for more information..I don't have many openings left for 2009.

I drew the Kaibab the first year I applied. Saying that, I tried for the next 5 years after that and didn't draw.
It all comes down to the luck of the draw. I know people who drew 3 straight years and I know friends who have applied for 10 years before they drew.
I would say a good 5 to 8 years on average. Again but if you get lucky, sooner.

Bob,
Put in!

Kique

Kique: PM me for units,details,etc.

Just for the "record", a 160 buck is better than 95% of the deer taken in a given year.

It ain't a book head but a fine trophy none-the-less.

Many "greenhorns" just don't appreciate how really few deer over 180 are taken each year, much less over 200 and how difficult and if guided, how really expensive it is for a top quality hunt.

MM

This is for residents I'm assuming?

I agree that a 160 can be a great trophy, especially if it is an older buck with some mass. I think that a 24" spread with good heavy mass looks better than a 30"+ spread with long thin antlers.

In regards to a guided trophy muley hunt, I feel it is important to have a one hunter on one guide ratio. If not, there will be "too much talking" between the three people, and someone will have to give up a shot opportunity in the presence of trophy.

I wonder if a full moon would have much of an effect during the December rut in eastern Colorado?
Does anyone know?

eblues,
Jeff still lives in Munds Park.

Tom,
The max number of bonus points for deer in AZ will be 12 this year. I believe that the only NR who are drawing for units 12A late and 13B have max points and they make up the 10% of the permits allowed for NR, and they draw in the 20% pass (where 20% of the tags are drawn from those with the most BP).

This report may help deciding your odds.
http://www.azgfd.gov/eservices/pdfs/2008BonusPoin%20Report1-2Pass.pdf

RedRabbit,
I hunted Kaibab 12A back in 1980 with a guide out of Flagstaff, Lamar Haines did you know him?
We remained friends until he passed away, really a great guy.

Thanks for that RedRabbit, I appreciate it.

Just checked--only have 11 under my belt...:)

Straydog,
I moved to Flag in 91, so I was not able to have met him. There is a wildlife area on the San Francisco Peaks named in his honor, as is a benefit fishing tournament.

Doug~RR

Tom,

If you are only one BP short of max you really should make it out to AZ to take the one day Non-resident Supplemental Hunter Ed class and secure that permanent bonus point. The difference between max points and one short is the difference between drawing a tag and not even having a chance.

The Kingman, AZ Hunter Ed Team should have a Spring class in time for the deer & sheep application period for 2009.

Good luck!

Jim

Thanks Jim, will check it out. I have seen that offered but never really thought about it. If I don't make it this spring I will in 2010--my wife has have some kin (non-hunting) in AZ, she would like to see, too.

Tom,
Don Martin in Kingman puts on a weekend hunter ed class for NR. He will have a class in April, which would allow you to be in this years deer draw with max points. Deer apps will be due the second Tuesday in June. His contact info is on his AWO outfitter website
http://www.huntinfo.com/awo.htm

This is info posted on another forum by Don Martin who puts on the NR weekend hunter ed class in Kingman:

"You have to get in the max bonus point pool for deer if you even want a chance at drawing a north-of-the-ditch premium tags....(early tags in 12A and 12B can be drawn with less than max points)

11 points won't get it and you're right, it will still be tough but at least you're in the draw (20% pass) where you have a shot at 10% of the tags offered.

Right now there are about 600 NR with 11 deer bonus points. I think about 500 of them only need Hunter Ed to get into the max pool.

Anyone who is in that pool and doesn't tag Hunter Ed is NUTS and are just wasting money applying for a tag they CAN'T draw!

There are currently about 60 residents and 186 NR who have max deer bonus points. About 30-35 NR draw out each year from the max pool.

Take Hunter Ed in your home state and bring your son and come over in April and take my class. You won't regret it.

Good luck,

Don Martin"

Yikes that's grim.

Will do and thanks for the info Doug!

That's sum funny [bleep] right there...

I must have missed it.....what's so funny?

I didn't see anything funny either! Maybe it would be if a guy didn't believe big MD exist along the New Mexico/Texas border.

Hello

I live in central Alberta and we have had a bad couple of winters but I still believe that Bearpaw outfitters here in AB are killing the biggest mule deer these days. If I remember right they killed 30 bucks in 05 and 9 of them went over 200". Another great outfit up here is Mike Ukrainetz outfitting. I hunted the eastern plains of Colorado in 2003 and the quality of deer was significantly lower than here in AB. That is subject to a lot of variables of course. Hope this helps.

Thanks 264. I will look into them as well.

Cacciatore,
I sent you a PM.

and those two are charging $8000-$8500 for their hunts (they may be well worth it), which is on par with Sonora. The way I see it, Alberta may well produce more 180" bucks every year, but for a chance at the true top end stuff (200+"), I'd head to Sonora.

JG,
Not having hunted Sonora, it seems that everything happens from Hermosillo. How large of a radius from Hermosillo is the area with the huge bucks?
Also, I had the impression that the cost is about $10k, does that seem about right? I realize it is desert, but what are the temperatures running during muley season?
And what hunter success percentages does a good outfitter run on bucks over 180 B&C?

Stray, the area extends from slightly south of Hermosillo all the way to just south of the Arizona border (Caborca), west to the coast, and about 60 miles east (don't hold me that area exactly). We hunted about 80 miles NW of Hermosillo twice). Hermosillo is definitely the hub. I think it has more to do with well managed, not over-hunted ranches than a particular area. Hunts can be had from many outfitters for $8500. On my hunts down there the temps ranged from about 40 in the am to 80 in the afternoon. The weather was simply fantastic. On my first hunt when I was fortunate to kill the 212" gross, my buddy killed a 200" gross 6x6, and the other hunter killed a 170" buck. On my last hunt there I killed a 170" buck, one guy didn't get a shot, one guy who'd never shot a muley killed an extremely old, wide, heavy 2x3, and the last guy shot a 175" buck. I'd say odds are probably 30% on 180" bucks, and very slim on bucks 200" or better. I liken it to whitetail hunting in Canada. All you see are the pictures of the huge bucks killed. You never hear about the hunters that didn't see anything to shoot, or that killed a 140" buck. You have to be very careful down there who you hunt with. It can be a real crap shoot for sure, but there are some good, honest ones. Hope that helps some. With all that said I'd love to go back.

I might add, the big mulies love the brush infested flats, coues love the hills.

Having hunted down there too. Johnny has it right. I would agree just south or Hermosillo as far east as Sahuaripa, west to the coast, and north to the sasabe line and Benjamin hill south of Nogales. The flats hold the biggest bucks by far. The best area I have encountered was south west of Hermosillo. I hunted that twice and both times I was shocked at what I seen. Plus the area was glassable. East of Hermosillo holdsso big bucks also. Probably the biggest, but the odds are slim. North of Hermosillo holds the population, but ranches can be hit or miss.

I would say you have a better chance of shooting a 30 inch buck than you do anything score wise. Most 30 inchers don't score high anyways unless he is a monster like johnnys.

Temperature is nice. Cold in the morning and hot in the day time.

The biggest coues bucks also are known to hang out in the desert flats. Jump on one if you have the chance and pay the extra fee. Most of the 140ish coues coming out of Mexico are being shot on the flats.


One big thing to look at and be concerned of. If choosing the right outfitter. I got burned bad on one of the deals I had down there. It was not a good thing.
Research what they are killing, find out how many years they have been outfitting, check the size of the hunting area and number of hunters they take per year. Check out a few references and see if they have a website.
Then again, not all outfitters are perfect and some make mistakes. If they make those mistakes on purpose, then you need to step away. If they make a mistake unknowingly, thats something else and a learning experience for both.

I am comfortable with Chad Smith. Great person and outstanding outfitter.
Ubaldo Lopez, el rodeo hunting lodge, we learned something together and that lesson was invaluable,. I won't get into details. But that was the only issue with hunting with him and his camp. Great service and they kill big bucks. Jim Shockey hunts with him.
Jorge Camou is a big player down there. A lot of American outfitters book their hunts with him as the Sonoran link. A ton of ranches and tags, but also a ton of hunters to deal with a year. But he has quality stuff.

Chad is my number 1 guy if I was going down there. Then Ubaldo, then Jorge camou. I also hear his brothers, the camou brothers, have some good hunts. Never hunted with them, but I am sure if they are like jorge, they are good.

Again research the outfitter before dropping the cash.

Kique

Kique-140ish coues...? where from and when?

Thx
Dober

every year. Last year they took a 143 from the desert floor and the year before a 138 or something like that.
They thrive on that Desert cause they are hard to hunt.

Rumor has it mark and I haven't confirmed it, but this year in unit 33 here in AZ, someone took a 155 and someone took a 139. Not sure, but thats flying around. If I find out the truth i'll let you know.

Kique

Which guys/outfits?

Dober

I was hearing reports of big bucks from most camps. I know a couple buddies of mine were chasing a 130 something on a ranch south of Sasabe. So guy that puts up posters at the local Sportsmans had some big desert bucks 1 was 140ish. Desert trophy outfitters took some good bucks last year or the year before last.
The best buck I have seen in the desert was a 120 type buck. Client didn't want to pay for the tag and he walked.

Next time I go to the sportsmans I'll get the name of the outfitter there.

The AZ bucks one was shot by a guy from San Manuel and the other I don't know.

I'll shoot you a Pm whenI get more info.

Kique

Enrique, has anyone knocked down a big mulie down there yet? It's killing me not being part of it again this year.

Kique-when you track it down who's taking the 140's please let me know. I've not heard about anyone taking them this big yearly. And so I'd love to know who it is and from what areas.

I truly love the Sierra Madres and totally miss them and the lil whitey's.

Thx
Dober

Johnny,
haven't heard of anything yet from Sonora. But I am sure they are doing good down there. I'll find out and let you know.

Mark,
If you got the patience and time to wait for a tag. Start applying for AZ and getting those bonus points. When the time comes and you draw that unit 33 december tag, you'll be very happy at the end of the hunt. I can promise that.

You're right about the Dec tag, that's the one I'd really want. And like I said, please let me know which outfits taking the 140's south of the border.

Thx
Dober

PM sent BIG BUCKS

Please PM me with details and pictures

Greenhorn,
I would be glad to send you a brochure and some pictures to your email if you have doubts..I don't think its funny, and it is a fact. the only downside is The rancher I book for is sold out about 3 years in advance but I can get you on the list..Every hunter has the first opertunity for a spot the following year and must declare at the end of his hunt. These 3 ranches are well managed, all over 100,000 ac. and they only have 3 hunters on each ranch per season. The deer are the owners hobby and he is proud of his deer herd and rightiouly so....If your in top condition and can walk many miles in sand, and can shoot, you will get a monster buck over 200 B&C..You will see them every day with a spotting scope then the walking,tracking starts.
$5500 fully guided. DK Boyd Land and Cattle Company, Midland, Texas..He is booked for 2009,2010, 2011, but he has another ranch in New Mexico that I can get two hunters on, but they would be on their own other than the foreman would give them a tour of the ranch and show them were the bucks hang out. you can stay in the bunkhouse and fix your own meals..I have seen some real big bucks on this ranch but its a hard hunt. $5500.

I have another ranch near there that will normally get you about a 160 to 180 with one or maybe two each year at 200. Easier hunting, spot and stalk mostly..$3000 for the hunt, $3000 for the kill. Flag Ranch, Billy Cole owner, Billy has a booth at Dallas every year..He is booked for 2009.

Both ranches have about a 60 to 70% success, and a lot depends on weather, range conditions etc. but most folks have about a 70 to 80% opertunity at a big buck..Shot are long and sometime difficult, but most folks that hunt hard see a big one..

I have a hunt in Montana, with a lot of deer, at $2000 per hunt and a very high success rate and a 30 incher is possible but very rare indeed..Most of these bucks are 25 to 26 inch spreads and would have to hump to make 150. It is a good hunt for sure and he runs a great tented camp with good food, but the bucks are average...

So Greenhorn, if you have any doubts then book a hunt with me at my price, send me a 50% deposit, and if the above view is not correct then I'll pay for your hunt. I don't candy coat my hunts and what I say they are is what you will get.

It's nice of you to offer such a great deal for me, but clearly you do this knowing that I wouldn't consider it, even if it were free. I'll rather put a few days into my $16 Montana license, in this state which has few trophy deer. I choose to spend my money wisely, and most importantly, my time.


Can you verify this claim? A quick look through the B&C trophy search will highlight annual entries from at least the correct county and state.

Can you verify this claim? A quick look through the B&C trophy search will highlight annual entries from at least the correct county and state.

[/quote]

If you will look at the Boone and Crockett entries you will find that Texas has produced very few "record book" mule deer.

That being said, I am sure that the man offering this hunt has quite a few pictures to be able to verify his claim of having taken B&C deer every year. An advertiser on this website certainly wouldnt have to stretch the truth to sell a hunt here. The man that offered the hunt has said that he does not "candy coat" his hunts.

I for one would like to see these deer, big mule deer are hard to come by and if the hunt is as advertised it is priced well below market value

Please post the pictures and end Greenhorns doubt. If you do not know how to post pictures on the internet I would bet you could email the pictures to any number of members who would post them for you.

I can tell you that I grew up in this area Atkinson talks about, and know several of those ranches very well. I even hunted the Boyd ranch growing up. Deer of B&C proportions do in fact live there, but don't let the book be your sole source of information, as any avid mule deer hunter knows, many of the biggest mule deer bucks do not make the book, the the "book" can be (and is, IMO) overated. There are bucks killed in the 190"+ class every year in these areas I(we killed 2 190" class bucks last year here). It is a sleeper area for sure, with tightly controlled access, huge ranches, and many ranchers do not need the money here (oil royalties fill the bill nicely for them). Like he said, the deer are thinly dispersed over vast areas, much like Sonora. The big bucks are there, and the hunting can be brutal, but worth it.

Here's one from the area, Nov '09, a 230" class buck:
[img][IMG]http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t32/JGrimes_2007/GainesHammeheadbuck.jpg[/img][/img]

JG, I don't disagree with what you're saying. But if you're advertising "Boone and Crockett" bucks.. those do not include the almosts or coulda shouldas.

Ok. I don't know Atkinson personally, and maybe he should have said B&C "class" bucks. Would that have made you feel better? Just because you spend your money "wisely" as you said, doesn't hide the fact that B&C class deer are there.

If you have traveled at all widely hunting large mule deer (whether B&C,or B&C Class, or simply "old and large"),something a guy should have figured out by now is that your BEST chance for a TRULY large buck will likely be best in what I call "fringe" mule deer country.Maybe a lightly hunted ranch or other large acreage in some "non-traditional destination-type" place with low deer density,very low hunting pressure,plenty of escape cover,or a combination of factors that result in bucks being able to grow up,with excellent winter habitat to carry large bucks over from the rut,etc.

Sometimes the licenses in these areas are very tough to get(AZ Strip,Kaibab,etc); sometimes private and limited access creates these conditions.Sometimes it comes about because hunters are like "sheep",following the crowds to highly touted areas or "hot" outfitters,and ignoring the "fringe" habitat areas, like New Mexico,Texas, parts of Oklahoma,and hard to draw areas of Colorado,etc.

I have no doubt whatsoever that Ray has the deer he speaks of on these large, remote, difficult-to-hunt ranches in New Mexico, and Texas. I suspect that very few hunters really have the patience and determination to stay "off-the-trigger" for two weeks at a stretch,or devote the 2-4 years of burning tags it takes before you finally get a crack at a buck like JG posted a picture of.

Just because a guy goes someplace,hunts half-assed for 5 days(not enought time BTW)and does not see a big one,does not mean they are not there.....

BobinNH, I agree 100%. Your experience stands out in your posts.

Here's another one taken through my spotter. I could never catch up to this buck.

[img][IMG]http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t32/JGrimes_2007/NMidlandMulie.jpg[/img][/img]

Cicero,
Atkinson's pictures are on his website.

Oooohhh, Maaann! I know you're not supposed to judge them from behind.......but I'd blow a tag on THAT one.....I have made bigger mistakes in my life.

BTW, I could give a ratz asz what he scored

I think its a stretch to compare the hunting in the county where that deer was taken in the photo to the area where ole Ray is trying to book his hunts. That county was just opened to hunting this year and there were sure to be some giant deer killed. Look at what happened in Yoakum and Cochran counties when they were opened to hunting back in 97-98, they killed the state record in Yoakum that year, a 221 2/8" giant killed by Pat Beaird. It was the state record for 6 years until that freak in Reeves County was killed(283"). Yoakum and Cochran never produced like they did in the first couple years and while a couple good deer get killed every now and again the cream of the crop was skimmed off the top early.

I am kind of surprised that Ray is still trying to book mule deer hunts, he and I have gone round and round on another forum as to his advertising practices. He advertises a deer that a friend of mine killed many years ago, its on his website being held by the landowners wife, and he advertises it as a 234+ deer. The deer is a slob, but its not 234+, its a 207" deer and he killed it on an unguided hunt and its the best deer he's killed in that country and he was born and raised there. Ray claims it was killed 4 years ago but it was shot over a decade ago

There are only a handful of deer killed in Texas that qualify for the Boone and Crockett Record Book and while I completely agree with JGRaider that the "book" overrated, I have a problem with the claim that they kill 2-3 a year. Its simply not true.

All this being said, I have to give credit where credit is due, Ray and I had a fairly hated debate a couple of years ago when he claimed that the new "state record" was killed at the gate of one of the ranches he was booking for and I corrected him. He was talking about a deer that was killed in a closed county(same county that just opened this year) I know this because I wrote the article that was in Muley Crazy Magazine as well as Kings Hunting Illustrated. It wasnt close to that ranch. I am happy to see that he is not advertising with that deer anymore as it was poached. The article I wrote was called "Forbidden Fruit" and I will be more than happy to find the issue numbers if anybody is interested.

If your looking to hunt this area of Texas you need to go in with realistic expectations. Ray says that "I have 3 ranches in Texas owned by the same people and they shoot 3 bucks each year and all are over 200 B&C but your not allowed to shoot lesser bucks." If your not allowed to shoot deer less that 200" then I think you'd have almost as much luck on a Unicorn hunt on the same ranch. The country has produced them but a 200" deer anywhere is tough, much less desert country where the densities are low

This area has,in the past,produced the kind of deer you couldnt expect in several lifetimes of hunting, the odds of finding that kind of deer would be similar to winning the Lotto somewhere. To place an expectation on a 200" deer anywhere other than the Arizona Strip or maybe the Henry Mountains with the very best guides available is simply irresponsible, even in those areas 200" can be a tough expectation to meet and exceed

With all due respect to Ray, I am not trying to get into an arguement with anybody, merely expressing an opinion based on many years of chasing the biggest mule deer in the best country available.

Drummond Lindsey

Welcome Drum!
Glad to see you are still kickin.
I don't know Ray, but will vouge for HuntSonora as a straight shooter.
(HH)

I will vouch for Huntsonora also. I find him to be very knowledgable. I cannot argue with the points he has made here either. You're absolutley correct about it being the first hunting season in that particular county. I personally saw pictures on the game wardens camera of at least 10 bucks over 200" that came from there during that first season. It will definitely not continue. Like I said before, I do not know Ray Atkinson at all, but I do know the DK Boyd Ranch he speaks of. This is a huge chunk of ground (375 sections private). I do not know what has been killed there the past couple of years, but it does have the potential. My intention was not to promote anything. I was merely trying to point out that there are 190"+ bucks killed in the surrounding counties every year on well managed places. I agree 100% that advertising B&C deer every year is risky business for sure.

Did you catch it now? It's called reality.. and sometimes it is very funny.

Reality is there are 190'+ bucks killed here every year. We killed 2 last year. I like reality. My advice would be to stay in Montana and take your chances. I like my chances better down here.

huntsonora,
Welcome to the campfire, and it seems you bring a lot of good experience and knowledge.

Mule deer hunting today,if you want a big buck, seems like a game of more and more hunters vying for an ever-diminshing and smaller slice of the same pie.....kinda like the popularity explosion and wild price increases that followed sheep hunting for quite awhile.

This is why I put in for my buddy's ranch in Wyoming each year (we've killed bucks that gross over 190 there but I would not want to bet on it each year), but otherwise I just go to Canada.They may not have the widespread Utah,Colorado, or AZ monsters that a handful of hunters kill each year,but at least I know the quality is there,even if it is still not easy ( but then again they might!)

And "yes" the B&C scoring system leaves a lot of truly great bucks languishing on the side-lines. One look at the present world record typical whitetail tells you that....great buck, but thin,lacks great character.But I'd a shot him,too

JGRaider, I wasn't dissing your preferred hunting grounds. I'm sure there's great hunting down there for you. I was chuckling about the claims made above, the ones Drummond again brought back into check with reality. There's some history there, which I find pretty funny.

You are right, your chances are probably going to be better where there's limited hunting and you can pay trespass fees, an outfitter, a native guide, etc.. Nothing wrong with that, not my cup of tea, but to each their own.

Most western states have 190 "class" bucks to hunt.. some states have them even for hunters on a shoe-string budget.. although the odds of success are typically lower. Montana has them - I've taken several myself.

How big is that buck in the picture, walking away, ears back? From the photo, cannot tell a thing other than the seemingly sizy frame. Did you get a better look at it?

I never got a great look, but his left side was weak in the back. I figured him to be about 29" outside in th 180 class. I really did not want to get into a pissing match, so my apologies to you Greenhorn. You are absolutely spot on about a few things my friend, big mules are hard to find anywhere, B&C mulies are extremely rare (more extremely rare in TX I'll grant you), there are good bucks scattered out in lots of places, great tags are very hard to get.

Speaking of weak back lefts - here's a MT buck with one, around 28" outside, - I think the good antler taped 90. Note the Aggie garb.. I did submit it to B&C. Most that actually qualify are submitted.


I was thumbing throug a few of the Fair Chase issues at home, which now list gross and net scores. In the typical mule deer category it seemed the avg gross score was over 200, that's for those entered netting 180 and up. It takes one heck of a deer to make the grade. I'm unsure if that listed gross score is the gross typical, or the gross typical plus trash? When somebody says 190 class..it varies. Either way, 190 is a lot.

The Jicarilla Reservation claims to put B&C bucks into the book annually, and that I do believe.

JG, didn't you take a really giant MX buck a few years ago?? Please share a couple photos..

Greeny-many the neck on that bugger has to be booner alone...gross and net!

Dober

Yep his neck looks like it came from a rodeo bull.

The main thing to me about this thread is I am really grateful everyone doesn't want to hunt in the same place.

Greenhorn, that's a super buck, one that I'd shoot in a heartbeat. I dug up a few more pics of that buck I killed in Mexico. I know I'll never see, much less shoot another buck like this......

My two buddies were with me.
[img][IMG]http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t32/JGrimes_2007/Copyofphoto1.jpg[/img][/img]


He had 22" backs, and was in fact a little weak in both fronts
[img][IMG]http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t32/JGrimes_2007/Copyofmd7101bigboydown.jpg[/img][/img]


Just for numbers sake, this buck was 35 1/4" outside, 27" main beams, 31 1/2" inside on main beams. This buck grossed 213 2/8". I lost 4 4/8" on spread credit, and 4" diff in sides, netting 204 6/8". Truly the buck of 5 lifetimes, and I know how lucky I was.
[img][IMG]http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t32/JGrimes_2007/CopyofPC150107.jpg[/img][/img]

W.O.W. !!! Holy back tines!

Thanks for sharing the photos..

You better start looking for non-typicals, or maybe whitetails.

GH, I need your birth date please. I'm needing to send you some Texas Tech gear....

I remember your seeing your deer a couple years ago in Muley Crazy I believe. What a buck! Congratulations, that deer is just a stud!

I'll try to post up a few Mexico pictures if I can figure out how to get it done.

Guys, please share mule deer photos. That Mexican deer is freaky out of porportion - rack doesn't match the rest of the animal sort of like Dolly Parton. JG, my sister would disown me if I wore Texas Tech colors.

My dreams came true last season when I was able to take this remarkable and rare "switch buck". Note the amazing non-matching elements to his antlers, forked in the back on one side, forked on the front on the other. Best to remove these from the gene pool.. he had some neckitude though.

I'm amazed at the bodies on those brutes you kill. What's your best guess on live/field dressed weight? That MX buck probably dressed 180lbs or so, not real large by muley standards. Was that last buck of yours exceptionally old or what? I've never seen one anywhere close to that.

Not sure on the weight. Don't think he was real old -just cursed with crap genetics and obesity. I was pretty stoked to take him though. I actually passed a nice one with him. I think he outweighed the other one by 200lbs. I was called a retard by my hunting buddy - mostly because it was a backpack hunt and I had to carry all the meat out on my back. He was happy I was so odd about my harvest choice, as he tagged along the next day and shot the other buck - which is the best he's ever taken. Here's the other one, along side my amazing "switch buck".

Here is a few of the deer we have killed the past few years, burro y cola blanca
















[img]http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c11/drumdaddy/Picture7.jpg[/img]


[img]http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c11/drumdaddy/Picture9.jpg[/img]


[img]http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c11/drumdaddy/Picture10.jpg[/img]

Wow! Some great bucks here! I love big body size on mule deer and whitetails,and have shot some "old" pigs like Greenhorn's because they were BIG,but on the downhill side.

Some really nice mule deer out of Mexico,too.And those Coues deer are fabulous!

huntsonora, thanks for the MX pics. I can't get enough of big mule deer!

I really like that whitetail in the last photo, and the tripod backed muley, and the first one - great photos!

Thanks, those pictures are all I have on this computer. All of those deer were killed in a 2 week stretch a couple years ago. I'll post a few more here in a minute and I'll have to figure out how to get the pictures of 2 big non-typicals we killed in '03 and '04, they were the highest grossing deer to come out of Sonora those years as far as we know

Drummond

Drumm--man I love those Coues!!!

Thx 4 sharing.

Dober

Heres a few more then I'm going to need to get my home PC hooked up

A fight I photographed













[img]http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c11/drumdaddy/sonorapics018.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c11/drumdaddy/sonorapics019.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c11/drumdaddy/sonorapics020.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c11/drumdaddy/sonorapics021.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c11/drumdaddy/sonorapics022.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c11/drumdaddy/sonorapics023.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c11/drumdaddy/sonorapics024.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c11/drumdaddy/sonorapics026.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c11/drumdaddy/sonorapics028.jpg[/img]

And a few deer we killed the very same week

[img]http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c11/drumdaddy/sonorapics069.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c11/drumdaddy/sonorapics076.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c11/drumdaddy/sonorapics112.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c11/drumdaddy/sonorapics034.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c11/drumdaddy/sonorapics064.jpg[/img]

The 2 deer on the far right were also pictured in the previous post of mine.
[img]http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c11/drumdaddy/Picture12.jpg[/img]

I'll get a few more up when I get a minute to load them onto Photobucket

Drummond

Great pics, got anymo of the lil whitey's I so love?

Thx
Dober

I have tried to stay out of this but since Lindsey Drummond has stepped in I will say in plain language that he is and always has been a lieing little son of bitch, and is mad at me because I exposed his operation some years ago when I contacted his so called outfit in Mexico and the people told me they knew him but he didn't have anything to do with their operation...

I also forked out $30,000 out of my own pocket to reimburse some of my hunters who got conned by a bogus outfitter who had conned me also and I was in the process of sending that SOB to jail when his mama jumped in a paid me back my money, and that was one of Lindsey Drummonds very close friends, one Darren Proctor and if I ever come face to face with Mr. Lindsey Drummond, and I will some day, then he and I will have a come to Jesus conversation..Furthermore has lied about the deer on the DK Boyd ranch and the flag ranch that is well known for big bucks and has a booth at SCI every year and these are the ranches that I book for...I also contacted him at one point and set up a meeting between him and DK Boyd and Mr. Boyd of Boyd Cattle and Oil was going to show Mr. Drummond some of his big deer, but Drummond disapeared only to surface again on the internet..I have nothing more to say on this subject, but he will, as usual, have some of his coharts come to surface on this thread and tell us what a great guy he is...Also DK Boyd is pretty unhappy with Lindsey and let it go last time, he just may not next time.

On a softer tone, as I said the DK Boyd ranch is booked up for the next 3 or 4 years in advance but he does have a waiting list that I can get someone on if they really want to hunt there...

DK Boyd or Billy Cole of the Flag ranch will be glad to send pictures of their deer killed each year over the last 3 or 4 years as will I if you contact me by email..I have a brochure with pictures of a lot of big deer killed on the Flag ranch and can email pictures of deer killed on the Boyd ranch (frying pan)...

My best friend Allen Carraway, whose dad was the foreman on the Frying Pan for many years, was raised on the Frying Pan ranch that belongs to DK Boyd and I spent a lot of time there as a kid, we saw a buck now and then, but not many..All that has changed with good management, and the eradication of the screw worm that was killing millions of deer each year in Texas and New Mexico. The whitetail and Mule Deer population has more than doubled since that eradication program..

Ray, first of all, my name is Drummond Lindsey, not Lindsey Drummond.

Secondly, I was not disrespectful in my original post on this subject, I even stated that I was just offering my opinion on your sales pitch. Your response was about what I expected though, its your Modus operandi or M.O.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modus_operandi
(Here is a web site where you can see what Modus operandi means, I didnt want to have to explain it and figured this would be the easiest way for you to know and understand what it means)

You go after anybody that questions and you'll get ugly when you do it. You should just stick to the facts but instead its easier to just go on the offensive and even call into question the character of the posters own mother, just as you've done to me in this very thread. (you did that when you called me a s.o.b.)

Now, please allow me to address everything in your response to me. I have never been mad at you for "exposing" me. In fact, I have no idea what your talking about. If you would like to "expose" me please feel free to do so publicily. Who did you talk to and what did they say? I imagine that if you called a Mexican rancher and asked about a gringo named Lindsey they probably thought you were just some loco. You have to get somebodies name right in order to gain information(see my very first sentence) Anyway, if you'd like to try and discredit me then go ahead, I have absolutely nothing to hide.

About this guy Darren Proctor, I have only heard of one other person mention this guys name and that was a client of mine in Mexico. I'll actually post a picture of the guy that mentioned it in a future post, he killed the largest deer we have ever taken down in Mexico, a 234" giant. My client had some negative things to say about him as well. I have never met the man and have never had any discussions with him. All he is to me is a name and thats it. Your grasping at straws if your trying to tie me to this guy.

I have no idea why DK Boyd would be upset with me, I've never said a negative thing about him or his ranch. You really should try to pay attention, the things I have called into question have to do with you, not DK Boyd or the owner of the Flag Ranch, even though the owner of the Flag Ranch advertises with pictures of deer that came off of the neighboring ranch(which is a better ranch IMO) and of a poached deer that wasnt even poached in a neighboring county.

Ray, you have been claiming for years that you all kill 2 to 3 Boone and Crockett deer a year. When I first saw you advertising these hunts you said 2 to 3 deer in the 208"-234" class deer a year and that was 5 or 6 years ago. If you would like to publicily humiliate me and prove once and for all that I am 100% wrong then post up the pictures of these deer. Email them to me and I'll post them for you if you cannot figure out how to do it. These are your claims, I am sure that being a man that "doesnt have to suger coat his hunts" as you claim to be can at very least be able to provide photographs of all of these giant deer. I'll even cut you some slack, instead of having to post pictures of 10+ deer(5 or 6 years at 2-3 deer a year)why dont you just come up with 3 pictures. I'm not talking about the same old pics you've been flashing around the internet all these years, I want 3 photographs of Boone and Crockett deer that have come off of these ranches. Surely with all of these giant deer this shouldnt be a problem.

As for a "Come to Jesus" conversation, hows this; Ray, I can prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that you knowingly lie about your deer hunts in order to sell one. Your advertising practices absolutely disgust me and go against everything my father taught me growing up. You obviously live in a fantasy world if you think that I would say this on a public forum and couldnt live up to my end of the bargain and prove it. If you think I am lying then I beg you to tell me to prove it because I would like nothing more than to do so right here. I'm going to PM you with my phone number, feel free to call me anytime. Like I said earlier, I have nothing to hide from anybody.

I know Darren Proctor very well. In fact he lives about a mile down the road. He outfitted hunts on the Frying Pan for a few years too.

Can I say this is funny again..

Drummond, more pictures please.

Here's one from Montana..

That deer is a giant! Whats the story behind it?

Here are a couple more. I'll get some others up as soon as I get them off of my home pc, I am looking to upgrade this weekend and its not connected to the internet.





Killed those deer the same week

Drummond

Just to put Rays mind at ease, why dont you ask him if he's ever met me or had dealings with me. I wouldnt know the man if he was standing right next to me

Ray, Drummond,

you guys do not know me and I do not any further know you. Also this is not my fight, nor do I want to step in. Further, I have no intention to educate my elders.

Just thinking about the old saying of not doing laundry in public.

All the best, gentlemen. Maybe we meet sometime. The hunting community is small.

On a positive note, I really enjoy the deer posted. I accept private land and reservations input for species management thus offering greater chances but must admit to a warm fuzzy feeling when seeing greenhorn s public land trophies.

huntsonora, more great bucks, and thanks again for sharing. When I see Darren I'll ask him. GH, a giant buck for sure (are you sure I can't send you a TX Tech sweatshirt), story? Keep 'em coming.

That A&M sweatshirt isnt that bad, one of my sisters went there and I had another go to Tech. I do agree that Greenhorn should have a Tech sweatshirt. PM me your address Greenhorn and I'll ship one out to ya.

Here are a couple more pics





We gave the bigger deer in the fight I photographed another year to live. Here he is




I'll get a few more up in a day or so

Drummond Lindsey

Awesome bucks Drummond! My old aggie sweatshirt has bloodstains on it. Texas Tech would make a nice replacement although my sister might object, feel free to ship to 310 N. 21st, Bozeman, MT 59718

Ray, Can I get an Atkinon's Hunting Adventure's sweatshirt too? Think of the milage you could get..

Man, you guys do have some great pics. Much appreciated.

Wasn't the original topic looking for a deer/lope combo hunt? Here's a MT lope, and again.. the aggie wear. Note it's also on the above deer photos..

On second thought maybe you better keep the aggie sweatshirt....looks like it's brough you some good luck. Do you primarily hunt the W side of Montana for those big mulies? I've been under the impression that E Montana has lots of bucks but no real "bruisers". Could be wrong though since its hearsay only.

While we're on that subject, my boy did good a couple of years ago....with a lowly 7-08 and 140 gr core lokt's:

[img][IMG]http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t32/JGrimes_2007/NMAntelopeHunt003.jpg[/img][/img]

JG, that buck is BIG!! What's the story on that?!?

Eastern MT has a LOT of deer and good bucks. It's easier to hunt than western MT and if you are going guided and plan to hunt private land, eastern MT is where a guy should look. Here's one of the best ones I've taken in eastern MT on public land, stunted beams and no eyeguards -still 194+ gross. I've a couple friends who've taken 200+ bucks on public land in eastern MT.



I'm antelope obsessed, but this is supposed to be about mule deer. But here's a couple antelope from Montana.. I shot the devil looking buck with a 7-08 last fall..



Couple of bucks I've taken in MT..
alive:

Dead:


[img]http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f389/Rued/Hunting%20Photos/LopeHunts/DSCN0710.jpg[/img]



Check out this video clip. I ended up arrowing this one, 81+ gross. [img]http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f389/Rued/Hunting%20Photos/LopeHunts/th_FreakLive.jpg[/img]

There's some similarities here...

GH, you have some mighty fine mulies to your credit. You obviously know what you're doing. Believe it or not I was just looking at the very same similarities in those two mulies. I'd sure like to know the whereabouts that pic came from. The ranch I hunted was app 80 mi NW of Hermosillo where I killed that buck. Huntsonora, when, where was the pic taken? I know its a longshot but they are very similar.

That's an 85" gross buck from my buddie's ranch in E New Mexico. He owns 40 sections and only kills 5 bucks each year. Last year we ( I help him guide) killed 5 bucks over 80", and 3 of them should book.

Greenhorn's a machine.
Always love your pics Kurt.
Very motivational.

Greenhorn, your pictures are AWESOME! I love seeing public land giants like those!

Here are a few more

Net book typical


Another great typical


Ryan killed this deer on one of my leases but it was a DIY hunt. I wish I could have been there to see it. He actually passed this deer early in the hunt. Grosses well over 190" and its basically a 4x2, the third point is small on its 3 side


I will post up some pics of the big non-typicals we killed tomorrow. They are 232" and 234" giants

Drummond

Eerily similar! The live picture was taken in the mid 90's if I remember correctly. The deer was killed the next year and grossed 212" and netted 207" if memory serves me correctly. It was killed fairly close to Hermosillo

Drummond

Greenhorn,
When you say eastern Montana are you refering to the Missouri river breaks or another area?
Those are some great animals.

I shouldn't speak for GH but I am pretty darn sure he's talking somewhere in between the Yaak and the North Dakota border...

Hope that narrows it down for ya.

Dober

I'm crappy with directions, don't know where the missouri breaks are. I hunt antelope mostly on private land. Anything east of Bozeman is eastern Montana. I grew up in froid, and that's more like west Dakota.

Drummond, that big 2X4 is cool. I like Ryan, camped with him for a couple days when I was hunting deer on the strip in 2005.

Hey fellas, I dropped the ball on getting those big non-typicals pics posted, I wrecked my shoulder and had surgery on it a few weeks back. I'll get em up soon though.

Greenhorn, Ryan is a good dude! He is a great guy to share a campfire with, his stories never get old.

Drummond

Drum, good to see your pic's. i enjoyed your anual posts on MM this time of year, then i hear you went and got yourself banned! great bucks, keep em coming.

Don't forget location can be some of the "magic" as well. Twice I've had the opportunity to hunt the sand hills in west Texas for mule deer and came home empty handed both times for 2 reasons. First I was a guest and had limited time, second they are extremely picky about what they shoot. I have seen some great deer out there and the people who invited me consistently kill some great mule deer.

However, it does nothing location wise as for as a trophy mule deer hunt. Maybe that's just me.

Just like it's possible for me to get a landowner anteleope tag in TX from friends it does nothing for me either. I'd rather hunt in AZ, WY, or wherever for them.

I know. Crazy.

I simply love to hunt mulies anywhere they grow big, maybe that's crazy too.

Amen!

Hey JG, Heres the pics I told you about. Sorry bout the long delay

Ray Atkinson, I am sure we would all love to see your pictures now. You've tried to take me to task on a number of occassions and I have put up to shut you up. Your turn big'un, post up the pictures of those hogs y'all have been knocking down! I cannot wait to see the photos of YOUR clients deer.

Anyway, here are the pics of the 2 best deer we have ever killed in Sonora

Highest grossing deer



Best deer we have ever taken, this deer was on the cover of the first ever "Sonora Issue" of Muleycrazy magazine. Ironically enough, the above deer was on the cover of the 2nd issue, we were pretty darn lucky







Drummond

Drummond,
Unbelievable bucks, buck of dreams!

Jeremy Gugelmeyer

Drummond, WOW! What studs! You've been around the block my friend! Keep up the good work. (Just as a note, I grew up hunting that Frying Pan Ranch in W TX where Ray outfits, and know the Flag Ranch very well also). I know it very, very well. I need to get my hands on those first two Mexico issues of Muley Crazy. By the way, I ran into Darren Proctor a month or two ago.....he's never heard of you.

FWIW, the Texas Big Game Awards lists 4 bucks taken over 200" last season. 7 bucks were 190-200" and 7 were 180-190".

I'm kinda partial to the #8 typical from the panhandle myself .

LINK TO TBGA

Those bucks over 200" were taken from a county that has never had a season until last year. That trend will not continue for long. A 190" is a realistic possibility, however bucks of that caliber are few and far between anywhere.

Agreed! Look at what they knocked down in Yoakum Country the first year it was open. They have not duplicated that kind of season since. Hopefully there will be some mgmt minded ranchers but you know what the dollar will do, there will always be somebody there to pay a pile of cash to hunt.

There will be a few 200" deer killed in TX every year but certainly not 2-3 208"-235" deer with spreads exceeding 40" inches off one ranch every season as one member(Atkinson) of this forum would lead you to believe. Come on Ray, I'm begging you to post some pictures and prove me wrong. Surely you would not lie to sell a hunt would you?

HS

Blue,

So your buck scored 170 1/8"?

Helluva buck dude...

Sure did Greg. Helluva lucky hunter I'd say.

I'm going to CO this fall for the first time, but I'm still gonna try to head back to my little honey hole too.

Funny thing is, with the lack of H2O I'm having nearly as hard a time planning the Texas hunt as going to Colorado for the first time.

Where you coming in Colorado? Let me know, if there is any information I can pass along I'll gladly do it. I'm always happy to help a fellow Texan. Sounds like a heck of a deer u killed in TX! Congrats


HS

Blue,

Congrats man.

I'll be hunting in NM in Unit 31 very nearby where the gentlemen are talking about the big boys being killed. Very close to the Frying Pan Ranch in fact...

JGRaiders' photos generally look like what I'll be hunting. It will be a different hunt for me as I've been in Unit 30 and 34 for 5 years.

All this talk nearby my area had got be pretty dang pumped...

HS,

Feel free to PM me anything you may have to add. I've already talked to JG and some others about lots of stuff but I'd sure appreciate any added info you have...

Love yours pics BTW...

Ya'll have a good evening...

Speaking of Colorado,
I have accumulated 5 deer points in Colorado with the eastern plains in mind. Do you have any tips for what part of the plains or which units would be the most ideal opportunity for a heavy massed rack?
Thanks in advance

Ray Atkinson, since I grew up hunting the Frying Pan Ranch that you now sell hunts on, I'd kind of like to see some pics of those monsters you've been killing also. Will you post a few for us? Thanks.

If he does we are likely to be blown away. He advertised on Accurate Reloading about 5 or 6 years ago that they kill 2-3 in the 208-235 class with spreads exceeding 40" inches, he said thats "not bad" considering they only take 7 hunters a year!

If you factor into account the deer they had killed previous to 2003 and the 2-3 giants per year since then I think ole Ray should be able to produce 10-15 pictures. Of course, this is assuming ole Ray wasnt lying through his teeth and thats a pretty big assumption knowing Ray.

Whats going to happen here is that Ray may stay away from the website a few days then pretend that he never saw this post. Or Ray will revert to name calling, telling me once again that I know some dude in west TX named Darren Proctor and that I am some punk internet Troll thats never hunted mule deer. Ray, I liked it when you tried to tell people that you talked to some of the ranchers I leased from in Mexico and tried to claim that I was not welcome back. That was funny! Why dont you tell all of us who those ranchers were. That was such a pathetic attempt to discredit me it hurt to read

Anyway, here is your opportunity to prove me wrong and once and for all shut me up. Its a softball I've lobbed you and its just begging to be hit out of the park Ray

Drummond

Also, I received the PMs and will respond shortly to the guys wanting CO info

Drummond

You guys need to stop posting these pics of these big Sonora Mulies!!!!!!!!!
Doing so is just making me want to start outfitting again just so I can see them in my bins again.
That void of not hunting in Sonora is opening in my heart again and it sucks!

Thanks for giving me the urge again, even if I cannot follow it.

Kique

Ray, do you have any pics to post for us?

Ray,

How bout a few pics to prove that you guys do kill deer this big every year. I'm not being a jerk, just asking you to prove it, you've made these claims on this forum, trying to sell these hunts to the hard working members of 24HR. Whats the problem with proving it? Seems to me you might have an interested party judging from the above quote

Seriously Ray, from the claims that you've made, you do better each and every year than the very best outfitters on the Arizona strip! Pretty impressive if it were true.

I was on the Strip in 04 and was on a hunt where the hunter killed a 296" deer, not bad for a troll kid thats never hunted mule deer as you claim. Go buy "Legend of the Strip" by muleycrazy magazine, it was a giant. Do you think a hunter has a realistic chance at a 300" deer on the Frying Pan Ray?

Ray, I think you should post pictures of the deer your clients have killed. It should not be hard to do if you guys in fact killed these huge deer. If you cannot produce one single picture of these deer then I take it you guys havent killed squat and you should promptly cease and desist all advertising practices as it will be proven that you are a (insert derogatory word here)

One of my favorites is the time you advertised a deer as having been poached on a ranch you book hunts for. Its funny because I actually wrote the story about that very deer that was in fact poached, for MuleyCrazy and Hunting Illustrated and it wasnt even in a neighboring county. You cussed me for a year before finally admitting you were wrong. The part that shouldnt come as a surprise to anybody that knows you is that even after admitting you were wrong and it didnt come off of that ranch YOU CONTINUED TO ADVERTISE THAT DEER AS COMING OFF OF A RANCH YOU BOOK HUNTS FOR. Just blatantly lying to people, members of this very forum in fact, and trying to take their money. People go to prison for that kind of stuff.

So, long story short Ray, you should post the pics just to prove you werent lying or quit booking hunts all together. You made claims on this forum, you should prove them on this forum.

Drummond

The silence we received from Atkinson on this issue says alot, wouldn't you say?

I just enjoy ya'll bumping it back up so I can look at the deer again...grin...

Calling Ray out on this is secondary to the pics for sure!!!! Some beautiful bucks throughout the thread and the pics never get old

HS

btt for a great thread!!

I have some pictures of some pretty impressive Mule Deer that were killed this last season in Ariz. and old Mexico during the bow season and can book you in the rifle season..

I can't post them but I can send them to anyone interested in a hunt....I have a lot of Mule Deer, Coues, and Whitetail hunts..

I won't get involved in the flaming going on.

Typical Ray, won't address the issue but will step in and try to book a hunt.

So you have pics from "bow season" in Mexico? Hilarious

I liked it when you tried to book a mule deer hunt in New Mexico last season and told people they could hunt both seasons, your likely to get somebody arrested and charged with felonies with info like that

What it boils down to Ray is that unless you can prove those outlandish claims about the size of the deer your hunters kill in TX every year then your nothing more than a liar and a damn thief! You take peoples money based on lies and some people go to prison for similar business practices.

You can call this a flaming if it makes you feel better, I call it taking a person to task and I am doing nothing more than asking you to validate your claims with some photos. The reason you call it a flaming is because YOU DONT HAVE ANY PICTURES and your clients HAVE NEVER KILLED A BIG DEER in that country. Because if this, you have to try and take the pressure off of yourself by claiming that you not going to lower yourself to this behavior which is laughable because a few years ago when I first called you out on this you threatened me with a beating(hilarious) and even called me on the phone and threatened me. So don't try to make these folks think your taking the high road, you have just run out of options.

I told you I wouldn't just go away and as long as you tried to sell that hunt based on lies I would be right there calling you out. So, long story short, post the pictures or not, if not I think it's obvious to more people than just me what kind of person you are

Atkinson, if I were trying to sell trophy mule deer hunts for $7k like you do, surely you have some ammo to prove huntsonora wrong. Since these hunts take place in my back yard I'd love to see some pics, that's all.

Ole Ray is just a con artist. You guys should go over to AR and do a search, he claims to have killed hundreds of buffalo, tells a story of stiff arming a hippo once and has stared down the charge of death on more occassions than he cares to remember. My favorite yarn is one where he claims to have rounded up the most wild cattle ever on "Cap Yates" ranch in west TX and he and some Mexican boys had to "sew their eyelids shut" because these cattle were too wild! Its so damn funny, claimed they drove them to a sale with their eyelids sewed shut.

Anyway, maybe JGRaider can be the judge of who is telling the truth. Maybe Ray will email him some pictures and he can confirm to Rays potential customers of 24hr whether or not he is killing these giants every year or not.

What do you say Ray? Sounds like a happy medium to me. Time to put up or shut up. I told you years ago, when you called and threatened to show up on me and my families doorstep, that as long as you lied about these hunts I would call you out every single time. You havent posted one picture in YEARS!

Ray, if somebody called me a LIAR, CHEAT and a THIEF I would post up pictures to silence them for good.

Pretty please Ray, with a cherry on top, will you prove that I'm wrong and that you have indeed found Heaven on earth for mule deer hunters, an area so good that not even the AZ Strip can compete with it, and post or email the pics.

HS

JG,
I agree. But I think if he had any, they would have surfaced by now....

Atkinson is just a washed up ol hasbeen that can't keep his BS stories straight. I have butted heads with him several times over his BS hunt claims and all I ever got was he was gonna kick my azz. Well 2 years ago I happened to be in filer,idaho and called the ol bastid, told him to come to town, I would even buy breakfast before my azz whoopin, he had lots of excuses why he couldn't make it. He needs to saddle up a goat and ride off in the wild blue yonder................

I am shocked this thread is still going on. I love seeing the pics of great deer, but I don't like seeing people on both sides bickering.
I don't know how it started or who started it. But maybe I can be a voice of reason.
Can we go back to seeing the kick a$$ deer Huntsoonora or JG have killed or anyone else for that matter. Heck If Ray has any big deer he is willing to post I'd like to see them. I am all about seeing some big bucks and miss chasing them.
But please if you would on both sides stop the bickering so I can enjoy the pics.

Anyone have some good stories to go along with the big bucks?

Kique