Went out for some good old PA deer spotting the other night, been doing this since I was a kid and consider it a good time to hang out with the old man and see what the woods are producing for the fall. We saw plenty of bucks and does but there were two bucks the likes of which I have not seen in all the years I've been out. We drive about 20 miles round trip so we aren't covering a huge amount of territory. Also there was a buck next to our property in NW pa that green scored in the low 170's last year and that is unheard of in this part of the country for the most part. My question is are other people seeing what I'm seeing. The restrictions seem to be paying off to produce the results they want as far as I can see. And just to make things clear I'm more of a meat hunter than anything but I'd be lying if I said it didn't get me a little excited knowing that there is a least a possibility of seeing a really big buck in the area I hunt.

MM

For those not local, what are the Pa antler restrictions?

Out west in arid country, point restrictions for mulies simply did not work in our popular units. Mulies can be 4 by's at 2 1/2 years, but not really massive trophies until they're 5 or 6 years old. Restricting hunter numbers to assure some escapement into the older age classes seems to be our only solution.

With elk, limiting the majority take to spikes only appears to move a fair number of animals into the older age brackets.

Some counties have to have three on a side: brow tine counts.

Other counties have to have four on a side: brow tine counts.

Yes Pa is producing bigger Bucks. What used to win the big Buck contests in years past, now are down on the list.

Have seen more impressive racks coming out of Pa now than at any time in my hunting experience. Some don't like it. I do.

We are on our 5th year in the county where I hunt .We have 3 point minimum on one side (brow counts) and we are definitely seeing better quality. I tried to push this in our camp for 15 years. I took the state to mandate it for my guys to finally get it that it works. A lot of meat guys in my camp as well. Now I just need them to start letting the 2 year old 6's and 8's walk. We killed a 144" deer in camp last year during bow season our best in many years.We are working on elevating nutrition as funds allow. We've had a rough couple of years financially but have got our act together and things look very promising for the longevity of the camp.

It does NOT work unless under controlled conditions. On Public land it was a disaster because it was used as an excuse for massive deer reduction. The reason you are seeing bigger deer now is due to all the booster feeding done by hunting clubs on private property. Take a good look how much posted land there is now compared to 20 years ago too. How many housing developments are in the area now? That is what makes big deer where there were none. There were always big deer in Pa., but now a lot less of them. The size of deer taken now and 20 years ago can not be used as an example. The hunting laws have changed a lot in 20 years. One example is bowhunting DURING the rut.

Thats bullshit

I agree there were always some nice bucks here, but imo it's gotten a bit better, Deer hunting here has gone in the [bleep] though,,, again imo. I agree with antler restrictions, but herd reduction... not so much. Most guys on the local forum beat on their chests and proclaim others as lousy hunters if they sit all day without seeing a deer. Truth is it's pretty bad in certain areas. My.02

I think it's working great...

In the past few years I've hunted less hours in PA (moved out of state) and seen more bucks during those hours than what I might see during the regular season 5-10years ago.

As to the massive deer reduction theory.... antler restrictions are to keep the massive reduction down. It is a selective cull vs the time when buck & doe ran together where with proper tags it was a deer you pulled the trigger and worried about which tag you filled out after it was on the ground

ARs work awesome. You have to see it through for many years to even have a clue of how great it works.

+1

the reason youre seeing bigger deer is age. we're letting them grow a little bit older. Add to AR, many hunters have quit/died and deer in some areas dont see much pressure at all. AR isnt magic, it doesnt tweak the gene pool. We could have accomplished the same through herd reduction alone. But they knew no one would buy herd reduction unless the brought AR's into the picture. Personally, id like to see them take AR's away. As long as hunter numbers and tag allocations stay the same, AR's arent needed. The wanna be trophy hunters can play Lee and Tiffany on their land, and the meat hunters can have their deer.

Its only gonna get better

Gunplummers gotta be a flatlandet. I have hunter farm country all my life and we have never seen bucks the size we see now. When i firat started hunting you were kucky to see one buck a season now its common to see 3-4 buck a day. All on the same property i hunted as a kid. The bucks are living longer and getting a chance to grow. Look at the statistics. Beforw the AR went into okace the majority of bucks killed were 1.5 year ikds. Now. That top tier is being replaced with 2.5 year olds



Bucks would be bigger yet if we could keep the riffraff from philly and Jersey from coming up here and "having"!to shoot the small ones, ya know cuz dey spent all dat moneyz to hunt.

AR is part. As Pahick mentions Deer are also living longer for a couple reasons. Pressure is down due to the fact hunters for years have not seen many Deer due to the big antlerless kills of the past. In some places however they are slowly bouncing back due to the same lack of pressure.

Some of the mountain counties are home to some HOGS. Spend the time up there and do some night spotting and you may be surprised at what you bump into. Then you have to be willing to hunt them and accept that you are not going to be seeing many.

After Tues, essentially you will be on your own.

Yes, had my hands on antlers Taken in my neck of the woods I only thought mid west states produced.

My buck from PA last fall was my best in 30 + years in PA for me..........



The farmers son in law killed his best ever later in the day across the street from mine. Two other guys I know that also have 30+ years each killed their best ever PA bucks too. We're all NR except the farmers SIL.

Let me add that that is complete and total bullshit.










All taken in Lancaster county where 10 years ago any 12" 8 point 2 1/2 year old buck was considered a "trophy".

The first few years were tough on the old school hunters who thought taking a spike buck every year was the definition of success. I don't hear too many people complaining now though.

I could post more pics, but you get the point.

Gunplummer: Your Pa experience certainly doesn't reflect what has been an outstanding success for the hunters of the state of Pa.

I wish they would make it a 4 point rule.

AR has done (and continues to do) a few things in PA:

1. Raised the baseline on antler size harvested 1 year class. So what used to be a nice buck in PA is now what everyone is shooting. So now the bar on what constitutes "trophy" antlers has been raised.

2. KILLED the PA deer hunting tradition. Look at the drop in license sales starting the year AFTER the AR was put in place.

3. Low-ended our gene pool. Under AR, a genetically superior buck (say a 1.5 year 4x4) gets killed while a 2.5 or 3.5 year 3x3 is not a legal target in many units. The 3x3 is 50 or 75 lbs bigger than the younger (but genetically better) buck and hence kicks the dogsnot outta the good genes so he can pass on his crap genes.

The PA model for AR might work behind a high fence. But there's no way it can do ANYTHING constructive in a free-ranging herd. AR was DEFINITELY a Trojan horse for the massive herd reduction plan.

P.S. Out of the top 10 all time largest PA bucks taken with a gun, a whopping TWO were taken since AR was put into place.

Just sayin.

They have been hunting Deer a long time in Pa. Not all that long under AR rules. Two out of 10 may not be that bad.

Actually, my point being that AR is NOT the magical potion for growing antlers that some would make it out to be.

Just pointing out that PA whitetails were growing 180" racks in 1920 and 1931 and 1943 and 1951 ........... ALL, coincidentally, BEFORE Dr. Gary Alt was even born.

Yoder:

You are talkin out ur azz.

AR had nothing to do with the reduction of the PA deer herd. The Pa deer herd ain't what it used to be cause of the massive increase in antlerless permits. That is a completely different issue and discussion.

License sales dropped because the deer herd numbers were drastically reduced, especially in northern counties on public land due to the large increase in antlerless licenses and because of the continued aging of licensed Pa hunters. More are dying every year than are being recruited.

There are very few private properties in Pa that can manage and hold their deer heard exclusively. Rutting buck can travel miles from their normal summer home range

There aren't as many deer in Pa as there used to be, but don't confuse that issue with the size of bucks being harvested.

And we are not talking about the biggest bucks ever, we are talking about the average quality.

Age class, buck to doe ratio, and carrying capacity are humongous factors in producing trophy animals.

Get a clue.

Well, aren't you just the fackin conversation starter ??

Good evening to you, as well, sir.

Too bad you're incapable of participating in constructive exchanges of ideas. It would have been my pleasure to have screwed your lack of intellect into the dirt.

Boys and Girls I was hunting the Pa Deer herd in the late 50s. Any that don't think our herd is of higher quality today than then are just wrong.


Yep they may have killed a 180 back then and before, but a 120 eight was considered something to brag on back then. Reason being there were dang few of them taken.

Does got overpounded in the Northern tier, but that will be back in reasonable numbers in most of your lifetimes. The habitat is getting better all the time.

The ANF has clearcut after clearcut. You will be hard pressed to finder better all around Deer covers.

Yep and pipeline right of ways seeded with clover and buckwheat are providing tons of forage

I think we all can agree it's a touchy subject...

While I don't disagree that the baseline buck harvested now is larger-racked than in the 50's, on average.

But the genetic "quality" can't be improving when the AR, by design and law, promotes the harvest of the best antlers and the preservation of the worst. It's bassackwards in practice versus the stated intent.

My contention is that herd management practices will be most intense and effective in an environment where big racks = big $$. That being ranches, preserves, etc whether they be 100 acres or 100,000. In those instances, the very bucks that PA is artificially preserving to grow older (and breed) are the VERY same bucks that are culled for pennies on the dollar in for-profit operations. "Management bucks" they call them.

Has been from the git-go. Can't see it changing in the forseeable future. One camp loves it. One camp hates it. And one camp isn't bright enough to have intelligent debate on it.

It's a lose, lose, lose proposition when in an internet thread.

Oh, good Lord !!!!!!!

Don't tell the greenie weenies that deep gas pipelines might actually have BENEFIT to wild critters !!!

Perish the thought !!!!

Most right of ways, especially on state land, are rarely disturbed by mowers, much less being planted. There were contracting issues near our camp and the pipelines werent touched at one point in 5 years. When theyre maintained, we benefit. But that isnt the case in most of PA.



Forget genetics. You either have it, or you dont. And we do. AR gets us age, which is the only component you need to worry about in a non trophy state. As I said before though, with hunter numbers falling, and the reduction of the herd, we dont need AR's to give us the age. If they cut tags, and the herd rebounds significantly, then we may need AR's again. But not now.

Didn't look to start a debate, just wondered if everyone else is seeing what I'm seeing. The genetic basis is hard to argue withas far as killing the best bucks before they actually get a chance to grow big, BUT we are seeing bigger and older deer being killed at a higher percentage than before. The equation has more variables in it, but I'm not going to claim I know what they are. And the food plot argument is crap since clean harvesting took over and the general farming community took a serious nose dive. There was more and better feed years ago when more people were farming. I will say I've killed 5 eight point bucks in the last 7 years and one seven point. And that's alot better statistics than what I was doing before. The only sad thing some of the old boys in camp haven't killed a buck in a loooonnngg time because they don't hunt as hard as I do and can't physically even if they wanted to. You never know though lightning could strike.

God bless,

MM

No reason to be. Bigger Bucks on average are constantly being taken more frequently than anytime I can remember. Not as many, but better quality Bucks. Only problem I see is that I would like to see more Does to keep the younger generation more interested.

Problem is many Pa hunters have land access issues. Agree it can be a problem, but Pa has an immense amount of public land that is good Deer hunting, and there was a time not that long ago when the vast majority of hunters traveled to the public lands of the Northern tier to hunt. Until the herds gradually moved South there were few below I80. Probably hard for some to imagine that.

Many want to leave the house, hunt and return home that night, when there are many reasonable motels within easy driving distance of those public lands for those who don't have a camp. Many Pa hunters quit when it became a little more difficult to get a Deer. For many Pa hunters it is a casual recreational activity, and since it isn't is as easy as it was in the past they have limited their time in the field.

Because of the above many are missing out on some excellent Deer hunting.

The problem with tryingbto hunt public land in Pa is too many flatlandets from jersey we really need to go to a lottery system for non residents

I readily admit that I was a part of that group. It's taken me a lot of years to change my views on the value of this program, but the proof's in the pudding. Yeah, it was tough the first year after all the does vanished. Not much fun to sit in empty woods for a week. I feel a little bad for the old guys spending their last years in the woods, but this was done for the good of the herd. Everybody knew the mountain counties were carrying way too many deer. It's not right to see 40 deer the first day and be lucky if you can find a spike out of all those sightings. This was the right thing to do.

and Gary Alt had death threats.

Don't know where you hunt, buuuut....

As mentioned there is more than enough room to hunt/roam unmolested in Pa.
Even the majority of the Pa boys are usually within 500yards of the dirt road. Move back aways and you will have more than enough privacy. Even on public land.

I have places that even on the first day I can pretty much be alone or with friends.
By the second and third day you may go the whole day and not run into another hunter except out on the road by the car.

Those kind of spots are within easy driving distance of every Pa hunter. Game Lands, State Forests, National Forests, etc. You want away from the Jersey boys or anyone else for that matter, the only thing holding you back is a willingness to walk a bit.

There was a time when you could see over a hundred and often fairly quickly.
Back in the 60s it wasn't rare to see a herd of 40 to 50 go by. Then shortly another 40 to 50 so.

The shooting got crazy when the two day Doe season opened. Hundreds of shots would ring out in the course of a day. Sometimes as day broke you said screw it, found a big tree, picked a protective side and waited for things to calm down.

When I travel to Pa. and look at the hunting compared to years past, I see more posters, more elevated stands, it looks like it is turning into Texas.. Last fall I saw several farms with signs saying Available for Lease for Hunting.. It has definitely changed.. I am not sure I like it, but then I don't live there..

I do think the one thing that bothers me most is the high fences on state forests to keep the deer OUT of timber operations, and the lack of timbering on state game lands in the northern counties.. I am certain in my own mind, the game commission plans to make a killing selling the timber of those tracts sometime in the future.. BUT WILL THE MONEY GO TO GAME AND HUNTING OR IN SOME BIG WIGS POCKET? If they were truly concerned with game and hunting those lands would be managed for deer..
I also cannot get over the fact that I feel and many others I know feel, the herd reduction was a sell out to the insurance companies.. The dealings I have had with these bums the idea is for me to pay, but not to collect.. They are taking some nice bucks, but I am not certain what was given up was worth the price paid.. Areas that used to be open for hunting are now posted tight, and pay hunting is on the way..

maybe florida should consider an idea like that also. that way there would be more fish for the locals. anyway thats
just what is needed for all those cash starved areas in north central pa. have you driven thru renovo or emporium lately? used to be you couldnt find a place to stay during the first week of buck season. no doubt hunters contributed
alot into the economy of this area. now many camps dont bother to open for the buck season. yes there are bigger bucks
being taken than in years past. could it be that gating access to the public land contributed to that also?
could it also be they have become thru neccessity a different animal than in years past?
any food plots created by the game commission are intended for the benefit of the elk not the deer.
as for gary ault, how long has he been gone? during his tenure in deer managment he contributed the same ammount as he did to bear managment,that being zero. we learned alot about the denning habits of bears. lack of hunters and poor weather on opening days is responsible for bear numbers not gary ault or anyone else.

ya know,,,AR sucks and i'll tell you why,,, of course my personnel opinion and please don't bash me for what i'm about to say,,,i've been hunting in pa a little over 50 years,,,mostly in a camp up in mckean county,,,its gone now but i remember when we used to take a shotgun shell out (everybody had one) in their pocket to measure the antlers of a buck shot,,,my first was a spike,,,2 and 3/4,,,not legal in pa,,,must be 3",,,so we got away with it because we processed our own deer,,,that was my trophy first young buck,,,tasted delicious and the the horns are still on the wall, and many more to follow all tasted great,,,now-a-days we got AR,,,doe are killed in abundant,,,i don't see deer in butler county anymore (new camp),,,so,my age,eyesight,ect has taken me to a new prospective,,,RED TAG,,,my first doe was killed in march about 10 years ago on a private farm in westmoreland county,,,280 lbs,,,hey it was a doe and,no horns but 3" stubs on his head,,,and don't bash me because at work,3 to 5 guys (bowhunters) a year tell of hitting a huge buck and not finding it,,,found 6 months in a creek bottom,,,so AR SUCKS,,,it sucks,,,like someone else said,,,they want it to be like texas,,,i love the meat,and i don't get a hard-on seeing a 12 point on somebodys wall down in their gameroom,,,oh,by the way,,,you can't eat the horns,,,long rant,,,thanks

I've got mixed feelings. On one hand, needing to count points has cost me a couple of shots because I couldn't tell if a buck was legal. I've been the 'dog' for my son and my dad the last few years so I do quite a bit of moving. It's damn hard to count points on a deer trying to get away from you.

The flip side is that the year before AR's were started, we took the spotlight out one evening and saw 50 deer within a mile of the house, not one was a buck. A few years later, we had more bucks running around the same area.

I'm not seeing a big improvement in racks but we've always had pretty decent racks in the farm country I hunt near DuBois. I imagine that is food related.

Interesting comment about deer moving south of I-80. My grandfather never hunted his farm, he always went to Medix. Dad and his cousins started hunting the farm area in the late 60's. We made occasional trips to the mountains for 'something different/nostalgia' reasons but haven't done that since the mid 80's.

Pin me down and I would vote to get rid of the restrictions.

Dale

Belong to a camp in bald eagle state forest right around rt 80 in pa. Since antler restrictions and coincidentally other camps dying off etc.. We are shooting bigger bucks than ever. They are getting a chance to live!


Both the best buck either has shot for the one in 28 years at cabin, the other in 43 years at cabin. We never shot bucks like this since the cabin was built in 1928.

Nice Bucks!!!!


Amazing what can happen when they get to live 3 or 4 years and have a chance to mature.

Before AR it was estimated that almost 80% of the Buck harvest was Deer with their first set of antlers.

No question that average antler size/mass and body weights of bucks, has increased over the past 10 years. That's how it is now where I've hunted since my teens (now part of WMU 3A). Been almost 50 years since I was a teenager.

Far too many PA hunters have no friggin' clue about much of anything related to deer management. But they have lots of BS opinions and are happy to share them.

No matter how ridiculous they are? Insurance companies could care less about deer numbers and have never been a factor in deer herd reduction issues. They just raise rates when deer/auto collisions increase.

The (deer) Herd Reduction issue was pressed by biologists, crop farmers, foresters, nurserymen and homeowners, all of whom were tired of having too many deer in PA by the late 90s.

"We had big bucks years ago, before ARs". Well, no chit?

Point of the discussion, is that we've never had the number of good bucks that we have now. Talking about bucks, primarily those that have now made it to 2.5 years, sporting spreads of 16" or better, with some decent mass. And body weights have also increased with that bit of extra age.

Some of that also relates to fewer deer overall than we had by 2000, meaning there is a bit less competition for over winter browse. And that eventually results in larger, healthier deer of both sexes.

Smaller deer herd statewide these days, much nicer bucks.

Still more than enough deer around for all but those who still blubber about seeing 50 deer a day back when we had too damn many deer in many places - and now continue to whine about "no deer".

Hunting license decline is a national trend and one that PA has begun to recover from over the past several years. Sales over the past three license years are up a bit each year in PA.

A decline in license sales was inevitable, given that our WWII era folks are mostly gone and their children are now in their mid 60s. Those two groups were responsible for the huge numbers of hunters we had in the 50s, 60s, 70s and 80s.

And if we don't make an effort to recruit more kids away from their video games, soccer and other interests, a decline will continue in the ranks of hunters.

With regards to the kids that is one thing I would like to see changed. Let a junior hunter 15 and under be allowed to shoot a Deer that does not make the 3 or 4 point requirement. Perhaps it would be a small incentive fot getting them out and interested.

With school many juniors have limited days to Deer hunt. Let them also use their antlerless tag for the entire two weeks.

Id not worry much about the kids, the courts will see they get more time, right dubePA ?

Juniors do that already up here, and I thinkbits great.

One of the bigger problems I see than Antler Restrictions (I like that Jr's are still allowed to shoot any buck over 3")

is the rampant filling of other people's tags when the person doesn't hunt

Around here there is very kittle private peoperty open to hunting unless you know the family or are family. There are LOTS of gamelands. But, and as an example, last year we drove by one gamelands, that is approximately 640 cares and counted 62 vehicles With the majority of them being from out of state. We seriously need to revamp our jon reaident license process

Wait a minute, are you saying that such things as carrying capacity could have been a factor in Pa's deer management program. I call BS we all know it was the insurance Cos. and PETA and THE UN trying to stop hunting to decrease costs and control the worlds food supply, I mean. Isnt that why the Game Commission releasing cougars iinto the State?

Im originally from NWPA and live in GA now. I go home every year to hunt with my dad. Really I mainly sit with him and help him count points. We are hunting on private land in Mercer County, but its only 200 acres and all around it is huntable. Definately, the hunting is much better since AR.

Last year for example, we saw 6 bucks and 3 does by 9 o'clock. He killed a 125" 8 point.

2 years before he had an opportunity at daylight at a 125"+ buck.

Two years before that he killed a 120+ 21" wide 8 point by 7:30. We sat the rest of the day and saw 11 bucks and close to 50 deer. Im sure some/many of those deer came back through, but still it was an amazing day.

This land had never produced a good buck since it was bought in 1989, and never had anyone seen as many bucks as we are seeing now.

Someone posted a link last year to a buck contest in Meadville at Community Chevrolet. I looked at it and there must have been 20 deer that were in the 140's. I hunted up in and around that county and have been to that big buck contest and have never seen that many truly big deer. I agree Crawford is a county that always had good deer, but now it is amazing the quality and quantity of large bucks being produced.

Another example in the mountains of Forest County. My dads friend is a taxidermist. He sent me a pic of a buck killed up there last year. Was a wide ten that would score close to 160". Guy that killed it said there was another buck with him that was bigger. This is a county where the joke was always about a Forest County 11 point being a spike. Were big deer killed up there in the past...yes, but very, very, very few. Ive seen a couple bucks like the one mentioned above killed just in the last couple years up there. I personally saw a rub two years ago when I was home visiting a friend, and it was as big as my thigh.

PA has good genetics, but now they are getting a chance to grow. When I was a kid, my first year hunting was in 81. I saw well over 100 deer the first day of buck season.....but not 1 buck in all of that.

Did they kill too many does in parts of PA during the last decade...yes in parts they did, but not every where. Are there parts of the state with very few deer....yes there are, but they will come back. Hunters are not flocking to the mountains anymore so pressure is down and they will come back.

Thats my 2cents and worth about what you paid for it.

JimD.

Releasing cougars(the four legged kind) into the state is a running joke but I have to question the sudden explosion if coyote populations in the last 20 years. It definitely could be a coincidence that it just happened at this point of history, but maybe not to. With the overabundance of deer in the 90's it could be easy to see how they moved in on a readily a liable food source but the timing is suspicious with game commissions simultaneous efforts to reduce the herd, that and the fact they have been shown in multiple studies to be a sort of hybrid.

Mm

AR has been working in TX for over 10 years IIRC. I know good and well our deer are much better now and in 10 years if they were going downhill, they would have already.

Hardly any spikes anymore. And I don't see many 18 month old deer that are not 6-8 points and 10-13 inches appx wide.

To me thats impressive.

Over the last 5 years or so I've shot one old spike, and a wide 18 inch 7 point, and needed to shoot anotehr 7, a 6 and a 4 point, all 15 plus inches and 3 years old appx.

I've seen the largest deer we've ever seen here. And the oldest. My first bowkill off the place was a 6.5 year old 12 point. Last year was a 5.5 year old 13 point.

2.5 year old 16 inch wide 8 points are the norm here now.

Before that you were lucky to see a deer much less a buck older than 1.5.

YMMV, but for our deer herd its been the very best thing out there.

FWIW our antler regs are spike on at least one side. Or 13 inches inside spread or more.

And its cut way down on folks shooting 2-3 inch long spikes that are yearling deer in dry years.

FWIW the last group of deer I saw up at Moms house, were 9 bucks. Of those bucks one was a yearling spike, about 4 -5 inch pencils. One was a 6 point about 10 inches wide. The rest were all legal bucks by our rules.

All this theory of kill the best and the trash ends up breeding sure is not showing itself here.

The bucks are better today but the deer are a lot fewer.

Sooo, you are saying the GC definitely stocked Coyotes, the GC may have stocked Coyotes, or Coyotes just wondered in? Which one, or a combination of all three?

Or you really don't know, but one can always insinuate they did????



Coyotes have been slowly invading the NE part of the USA for probably over 80 years. NY supposedly saw/killed the first around 1930.

A little NE Coyote history:

http://www.nature.com/news/rise-of-the-coyote-the-new-top-dog-1.10635

I'm saying it's suspicious, but that is all and believe me I'm not the tinfoil hat type. How out of the ordinary would it be for some biologists to release a species into an ecosystem to control the population of another species. I'm nit saying my cousin Pete shot one with a collar that said property of PAGC, and that I know they did it, just saying it's not an abnormal thing for a group of biogists to do and it wouldn't surprise me. By the way I know a bunch of guys In my area that would rather hunt coyotes than deer and do t care where they came from but are glad they are here now, they are fun to hunt.


Mm

People looooove to jump on the GC. Have they made mistakes in my estimation? Yes. I.E. Stocked Pheasants were eventually the death blow to our once abundant wild ones. Too many Doe tags? No Doubt, but we kept buying and using them. The Northern Tier allotment is currently sold out again. No Deer in the Northwoood, but hunters keep buying up every one and most will use it if possible. Are they extremely hesitant to admit mistakes? Seems to be that way.

Used to be the politicians kept their hands off the GC. Hunters were not complaining because we had lots of Deer, Pheasants, Grouse, Rabbits, Squirrels.
Things have changed and wildlife just isn't as abundant as many hunters would like. Many are unhappy. Politicians looking for votes would jump with joy if they could come out and say the GC stocked Coyotes and they are on the side of the hunters and are going to do something about it. Ehhh? They haven't. Why? Because they can't prove the GC did and believe me if they could they would. Bingo for now.


Addition: The way things are today, seasons have to be justified i.e. even a study was required to have a porcupine season. Some rogue group of GC employes introducing Coyotes on the sly? There are some good people in the GC and they would have it out there.

In this political climate I think it highly unlikely that any politician that wants to win office would align themselves publicly with hunters and use them as a platform for campaigning. Guns are evil didnt you know;).

Tell that to the ones who campaign for 2nd amendment rights, have the backing of the NRA and the hunting community. You just may be tin-foil.

I think a lot of the coyote numbers are just fluctuations in the ecosystem.

in the mid 90's there were a TON of squirrels around my parents house...then we saw more hawks. then less hawks, and the squirrels are coming back in numbers.

same thing with coyotes and food sources

Used to be-long time ago-the Pa GC recognized the adverse effect the Hawks and Owls had on the small game and encouraged hunters to kill them. Those old boys did a pretty good job and kept them in check. Didn't wipe them out, just kept them down some. Now they fall under the umbrella of the GC and they must protect and watch over them.

One Owl or Hawk today in the minds of most environmental groups is worth every Grouse, Pheasant and Rabbit in the entire State. The more the merrier in some eyes.

Things are kind of screwed up.

What happens at the Pa game commission is a matter of public record.

They don't operate like the KGB, the NSA, the CIA or the Gestapo.

The thought that some think the PA game commission and it's employes are a covert operation, slipping around at night releasing coyotes and mountain lions off the record to decimate the deer herd is preposterous.

Are you telling me there is a conspiracy in the Pa game commission to wipe out the deer herd and nobody else, even our own people running the government and allocating funds don't know about it?

Bwaahahahah!

You guys crack me up.

If that were the case why is coyote season open 24/7 365 days a year without a bag limit?

Thank you for a screaming voice of common sense.

Oh and it is only open 365 24/7 if you have a fur bearer license. Without the tag you can't shoot one during the two week Deer season. However, with the tag you can. Crazy!!!!

Pa licensed junior hunters may harvest any buck with one antler 3" or longer.

Also there are many units, where they may use their antlerless license throughout the season. There is also a special 3 day junior antlerless hunt in Oct that is open to junior hunters only.

Yep: I see it the same as you.

Great. I didn't know that.

Actually I just realized I misspoke, the special three day antlerless season is also open to senior hunters over the age of 65.

Kinda ???

BOY am I ever GLAD to hear someone else say this !!!!!

Yeah:

The Pa game commission ain't perfect.

I can tell you that off the record many Pa biologists would agree that some hawks and owls need to disappear. So it's not even a wildlife science issue, it's a political issue and a public perception issue.

That very issue of controlling birds of prey was brought up by the game commission a few years ago but it was squashed in it's infancy by the do gooders.

The west is dealing with the same issue as it concerns wolves.

I'm not saying that I'm 100 percent certain that they introduced coyotes, hell I'm not saying I'm 5 percent certain but I don't give the govt all my trust. If I dint read every report they put out and say that must be the God's honest truth I guess that might make me a tinfoil hat type. If ithere was an article in the sunday paper tomorrow morning saying they did in fact introduce coyotes nobody reading this thread or anyone else in pa would be totally shocked.

Mm

Enough of that, glad most people are behind the AR's too. They seem to be working good up here in the NW.

Mm

I would suspect-perhaps even bet-there is a Coyote out there with a PGC tag in its ear.

What do you think that would tell you?

Stocking 'yotes is just so yesterday now. Everyone knows that they're bringing in mountain lions these days.

From what I've picked up it's mainly the old farts who are against AR. The younger crowd seems to be supportive.

Can't hardly believe how many have seen one or have come across tracks. Damn GC.

They only started stocking mountain lions after the price of sacks went up so high. You know.......... the ones the were using to air-drop rattlesnakes in to control the turkey population.

The price of sacks went sky-high in the spring of '09. Herds of Squatches over-browsed the burlap crop really badly just before harvest time in '08 and sent futures through the roof.

So we went from ar to hr to arguing over opinions on those then to stocked coyotes to pa mountian lions. Same ole bullshit as the pa forums. Yeah, things are f'ed up alright.

I'm sorry to have to disagree with you on this . We are the only hunting club within a 12 mile radius of where I hunt and at the moment we have zero food plots. 90% of the county I hunt in is on welfare because there are no jobs to be had. Development is next to nothing because no one has any money to buy and no one want to buy there because there is nothing there. My area has not changed in the last 60 years accept for the fact that there is no more agriculture anymore because all the farmers went belly up . Even the 2 dairies we had are gone. So if you ask me about the area I hunt in , conditions have gotten worse for the deer . We have always had a bunch of deer just not very many 2-3+ year olds and this is helping to change that. Maybe by you its different but this is whats going on by me.

What part of the state do you hunt?

sullivan county

Same in Delaware County where I hunt.AR should help in a few year's.

Sounds just like HPA. Without the permanent bans of course.

Look where the AR supporters hunt. Lancaster? Big racked deer were not common there 10 years ago? Delaware County? Farming could stop completely in Delaware County and the deer would get bigger on the shrubbery around the developments. I lived on the border of Bucks County for years. There are a lot of big deer running there. The buck/doe ratio is way out of wack there. We saw more buck than doe running around and that is not counting the really big ones that go nocturnal. There are more big deer seen now because they have more saftey places to hide. I live next to the Lehigh Gorge State Park. There is unlimited hunting land around me. It is not really a good place to hunt anymore. It is getting better now because hardly anybody comes up to hunt any more. Less hunters-bigger deer. Posted property-bigger deer. Housing developments-bigger deer. I would not trust the GC one bit. I have been around long enough to have heard all their lies, not to mention the money they pissed away. Bags of rattlesnakes to take care of turkeys? Nonsense. They did something worse. The GC stocked fishers, allegedly to control porcupines. The porcupine was a protected animal when they did this. Little bit of logging interest there maybe? The fisher is a bird killer, ground nesting and otherwise. Might take a few years but it will probably become an issue. Why don't politicians go after the PGC ? Because they can not. The PGC is not a part of the Government. A few years back there was a dust up over missing funds, misuse of equipment, misuse of doe tags, and who knows what else. A couple guys resigned and that was it. The Government can't legally investigate the PGC. Why don't you ask about that at the next meeting?

Some really nice bucks are taken sneaking in and out of that gorge.

Gunplummer,


A summation of the evil Game Commission-Fisher story in Pa. And just an FYI; trappers buy a license also and the GC has a responsibility to include them and furbeares in their decisions and management of wildlife.

http://www.redorbit.com/news/science/638678/pennsylvania_game_commission_collaring_fishers/

I suspect you are one of those who could go out every day, get your limit of whatever and still find fault with the GC.

Addition: The Pa GC receives no-as in zero-dollars from the Pa General fund. It pays its own way, from license fees, oil, gas, timber, PR funds, etc. You should be damn glad it is hard for the liberal politicians having a hard time getting their hands on the GC. They have ways, but fortunately it is not all that easy.

The most recent annual report of the GC to the Legislature.; Now why do they have to report to the legislature if they have no say over the GC?

Been 13 years since a license increase. Who will not authorize any increase in the license structure? You got it the legislature. Sounds like they have more than a little control of what the GC can accomplish if they don't allow them the dollars to function.


Did someone mention tinfoil?

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-rele...ual-report-to-legislature-141780853.html

That chit is so far off, it nearly circles around and hits itself in the ass?

Certain politicians have been "going after" PGC for several years now. They apparently think it makes them look better in the eyes of those who might re-elect them? Or they're just idiots wanting their five minutes of fame? That many of them are beyond clueless when it comes to wildlife management, becomes apparent a few minutes into any conversation on that subject.

It's these same politicians that have refused to grant a hunting license fee increase since the 1999 license year, when it went to the $20 we still pay now.

As for "not being part of the government", wrong again. All state agencies are audited by various government entities, including some from the federal government, like PGC is annually.

The PA General Assembly also enacts legislation under which those agencies must operate.

Although no state tax dollars go into PGC's annual budget, the Governor's budget office often modifies the PGC's budget as it did this year. PGC's proposed budget was cut again, even though no taxes were involved. Why? Because most state agencies fall under the auspices of the Governor.

The PGC budget money that was "taken away" for this year's budget, actually wound up being "given back" anyway. Why? Because of the CWD outbreak.

When PA Dept. of Agriculture refused to put fencing back up where CWD had been found in captive deer, PGC wound up footing that bill and they don't even have juristiction over captive deer now. Ag is "responsible" for captive deer (and elk), since the Legislature gave it to them years ago.

In the incident involving a former PGC Exec. Director (Madl) accused of pilfering gear and other bits of idiocy, the PGC investigated and turned their findings over to the PA Attorney General for prosecution. The AG declined to prosecute.

Nice try, but most of what you stated as fact, is mere BS.

Thanks, you beat me to it.

I live in Delaware County, PA and have done so for my entire life. I also have a camp in Wayne County, PA north of Honesdale. I just wanted to say that since the AR were set in place and the Antlerless Allocations were raised everything has changed.

Hunting in my home area has steadily become better and better. There are deer everywhere here in WMU 5D. I regularly see 30 to 50 deer a day while hunting at home. On the contrary, hunting at my camp in Wayne County in WMU 3C has been going downhill for years. We have not killed a buck at our camp for over 5 years and no camp in our area has killed a buck that I know of for just as long or longer. Years ago the hunting was great, we would kill 2-3 bucks a year all 8pt or better.

Due to the changing trends I now hunt harder at home and use the camp for small game, turkey, bear, and coyote hunting.

There are 8 hunters at my camp and we are on approx 500 acres that is surrounded by a huge tract of land owned by a spring water company. No hunting is permitted there. That tract of land is surrounded by large state game lands and PAFBC lands.

In time the Pa Big Woods Deer herd will be back better than ever. Some of us will not be here to see it. It should be something special for those who do.

Oop's ,Delaware County,New York,

Been an interesting read...

I moved back to Pa after a 15 year hiatus to AK. First thing I noticed upon moving back was there were more bucks and they were of higher quality than I remembered. 2nd was the intensity of the rut. Bucks actually have to chase does now.

The only negative that I would like to see changed is the doe numbers in some areas. I hunted mostly in the big woods last firearms season, and the deer numbers were beyond low in some areas. I think certain WMU's need their antlerless numbers cut back.

Another change I like is the Oct muzzleoader season. Though Im not in favor of the modern ML, I do enjoy taking my flintlock out in the autumn woods. Great experience.

Picked up a "modern" ML myself recently. Mainly because I think there are going to become more areas-especially S of Rt 422-that eventually will become off limits for centerfire rifles during the regular Deer season.

The current season-Oct 19-26-when an in-line can be used is only for Does for those who have an antlerless license. No reason why one who uses a flintlock can't
do so during the regular center-fire rifle season.

True, but then I would miss carrying a well balanced M70 through the woods

I was just commenting positively on the additional hunting opportunity afforded to the ML hunter in leau of the traditional after Christmas season, which I also enjoy. The choice of ML is purely an individual prefererence.

Problem is the archers get a big time first go at the good Bucks. Give the same to the Flinltlock hunters before the regular CF season and more than a few nice Bucks are gone by the time rifle season comes around and they are the majority.

Nothing wrong with the Flintlock, modern in-line or Archery-and now crossbows for all-hunters. Thing is Pa has a lot of CF rifle hunters. Many more than the other groups and they keep getting the short end of the stick. Problem is Pa just has a lot of hunters; to try and keep them all happy takes a huge effort by the GC.

Our bucks in Missouri are noticeably bigger since the 4-points on on side minimum went into effect 3 or 4 years ago, poachers be damned.

x1

MARS have been in place in Leelanau Co in NW lower MI for 10 years now. The benefits to the deer and deer hunting have been huge. We have been here 15 years and have seen the differences "before and after" first hand. Don't let anyone BS you.

Happily, another 12 counties in NW Lower will have MARs (3 pts side) instituted this fall for a 5 year trial period. That vote passed with 70% of hunters and landowners voting for MARs. That plurality is unbelievably high for any kind of vote like this regarding any topic re deer hunting.

NB

I alway felt like this was a giant cop out by old school Pa hunters. Every hunter in Pa has the same opportunity. If you want to hunt the rut, buy a bow or a crossbow. I did. If they come out with a black powder buck hunt before the rifle hunt, I am going to go buy a black powder rifle. If they come out with an early spear season, I'll go buy a spear. Just sick and tired of whinny "gun" hunters complaining about everybody else's advantages. I am a hunter, doesn't matter the weapon I choose or am allowed to hunt with.

Times change.

Adapt, overcome, move on or stay home and stay out of my way.

Does Pa have an early flintlock season for buck? In the northeast we only have an early muzzleloader doe season.

Pa does not have an early muzzleloader for buck. It is antlerless only.

The point I was trying to make is that, if Pa decides at some point in the future to have an early muzzleloader buck season, You will not hear me crying about it.

As a resident of Pa., and even though I do not currently own a muzzleloader of any kind, I have the same opportunity as every other Pa resident.

I can choose to participate or not.

i disagree with you on that. at least in the north central counties. reason being is the rapidly growing elk herd.
im 78 years old and have been hunting this area since i was 12. i wont disagree that deer numbers were to high even into
the early 70s. i also agree the antler restrictions have had a positive affect on buck quality.
about 30 years ago there was a large meeting held in jan. at the now defunct mountain country sportsmans clubhouse near
the sinnemahoning state park. area hunters were complaining even then about deer numbers. a very large group of pa game
commission personal were at that meeting. we were told that due to the change in the size of the trees in the area it could no longer support a large deer herd. 1 deer for 2 sq. miles was the target. when questioned about seeding a crop
on the miles of power and gas pipelines they said it was not practicle.
today in much of that area including where i sit right now there are more than 1 elk per 2 sq. miles. of coarse competing for the same food as the deer. they have recently been spending large sums on food plots in some isolated
areas in an attempt to spread out the elk herd. no doubt the deer also benefit from those plots. but the fact remains they were built for the benefit of the elk not the deer. anyone visiting this area is aware of the millions of tax dollars spent on elk viewing areas etc. the elk herd is flourishing and the deer numbers are dwindeling.
now the game commission claims to have cut back on doe licences. but what they are not saying is that the dcnr is also
issueing doe licences as they see fit in certain areas. who is in control of deer managment? there appears little doubt the game commission and the state see the elk herd as a cash cow for the future. a roll once relagated to a sizable
deer herd.

yobuck,

The DCNR licenses you refer to are part of the DMAP program. This is addressed around 3.10 in the video. 22,000 DMAP licenses were issued in 2012 which resulted in approximately 4,000 Deer taken across the entire State. In the overall Deer management picture that would be an insignificant number.

The PA elk herd has increased in numbers and in territory, but that is why PA has had an elk season for several years: To keep a lid on how big that elk herd will become.

No way elk hunting is ever going to "replace" our deer hunting in popularity or emphasis? We're still killing upwards of 300,000 deer per year, vs a handful of elk.

Watch out Dube, you don't want to rile up the spear chuckers.

the elk shot during the elk season are very few compared to
the total number. it is not an attempt to control the herd at this point. you might be led to believe thats the case. but if you live here as i do for at least 1/3 of the year you will see
it differently. as for deer harvest numbers, whoes numbers are they?

yobuck,

Some more DCNR/DMAP info:

If you notice DMAP licenses for certain areas can and have been eliminated when in conjunction with the GC habitat goals have been attained.

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-rele...agement-assistance-program-97484604.html

The GC is often criticized for inflating the Deer kill. Not sure if that is true or not. I can tell you that when my cousin was in the fur business he bought all the Deer hides he could in Armstrong Co. At that time the GC would publish an Armstrong Co Deer kill of a certain number, which I can't exactly remember. I can tell you that he would himself buy more than twice that many Deer hides in Armstrong Co. And he wasn't the only one buying. Which meant two things; Most hunters didn't report their kills and the GC estimate was more than conservative.

Some people won't believe it's raining until they go outdoors and get wet.

Still amazes me that so many refuse to believe estimated kill numbers? It's a fairly easy system to sort out and it's been explained for years, yet some still bluster about the estimates being "made up" from thin air. And yes, I think they are fairly conservative, compared to actual kill numbers.

PGC personnel check data at several levels to obtain a basis for reported kills vs actual kills. They stop at processors to record the data from deer brought in. WCOs record the data obatined via field checked deer kills.

So they have the data from actual, observed deer kills. Then they analyze the data to see how many of those hunters that were checked, actually reported their kills as required.

If X number of known deer kills aren't reported via the cards/online/phone reports, then they eventually arrive at the percentage of compliance. It's been below 40% for years, which is shameful.

But it's one of those things for which there is no easy solution. Anyone prosecuted for failure to report, can just claim they "sent it in, but it must've got lost in the mail" sort of crap. What District Judge is gonna convict someone on that charge, with that alibi?

But in the final analysis all that matters is the percentage of compliance, in order to estimate the kill numbers. That's an over simplified description of how it's done, but covers the heart of the system.

That must've sucked?

And that is a problem.

The point is the more seasons they continue to open before rifle season just waters gun season down all the more. The first day of rifle used to beat the hell out of Christmas.

Insignificant unless perhaps your camp is in western Sullivan county surrounded by State forest land and DMAP tags. Then you feel the pinch.

I have always taken the PGC kill numbers at face value. With that said, a few years ago some wildlife biologist-type made a pretty convincing statistical argument that the reported kill numbers were not realistic. I forget his name, but his argument was based purely on statistics and his general knowledge regarding animal populations.

According to his theory, the PGC reported annual kills did not match up with the PGC reported size of the deer herd. According to his calculations, the size of the herd would not be able to sustain the level of annual kills without collapsing, from a purely statistical standpoint.

I will admit that his argument raised some doubt in my mind. I'm not sure whether it was ever rebutted or disproven or what ever happened to the guy thereafter.

I did some Internet searching and came up with more information concerning my last post. Attached is a link to a study led by John Eveland (former Penn State biologist) that criticizes the PGC's deer management plan.

I believe that Mr. Eveland's conclusions were later challenged by a study commissioned by the PA legislature to audit the PGC's deer management plan. When scientists, activists, hunters, politicians and other vested interests disagree, who is one supposed to believe? Perhaps the truth lies somewhere in the middle, as is often the case.

Here is a link to info that counters the "official" PGC line:

ACSLPA

Sure wish PA gave the residents some say in what were paying for.

The game commission issues an annual statement that anyone who wishes to can examine the kill report cards. Count 'em and figure it out yourself.

My other beef with the restrictions is that there is virtually no way to remove inferior genetics. In the mid 80's, I shot 3 bucks in 4 years, every one had a scrubby spike for one antler and the other side was busted. All came from within 400 yds of the same point. So I know those genes were passed on from year to year. Unless you have a kid handy, there is no way to shoot those deer now because they are not legal.

Dale

I am no biologist, but in a perfect world, wouldn't the deer population itself remove the inferior genetics over time? With the advent of AR, better and older bucks are surviving past a year or so. These big boys ought to be preventing the scrubby bucks from attending to the does in their area.

I guess a little help from us hunters wouldn't hurt, though.

The trouble with antler restriction around where I hunt 3C (Northern Lackawanna/ Susquehanna) is a lot of people shoot whatever they want and butcher it themselves. So the bucks aren't getting to grow older anyway.

That would be people problem and not trouble with AR. Stop the people problem and the trouble goes away.

A little much to expect AR to improve the quality of Pa Deer and Deer management and also arrest the illegals. Drunks are going to drive until the Police make it very inconvenient/unpleasant to do so.

I didn't mean that is was an antler restriction problem, but another reason why bucks aren't growing older. Its hard to stop something that's been going on for decades. But overall the bucks are improving.

Figured you were refering to Eveland in your previous post?

While ACSL and others are touting him as the expert, there are numerous flaws in his figures and even more "flaws" in his resume. He has made claims in his resume that no one else can verify, including PSU.

Also know that Eveland submitted his own proposal for the study funded by the PA Legislative Budget/Finance Committee, but he was rejected in favor of the Wildlife Management Institute, for that deer management review. WMI is a well-regarded entity of long standing and regularly does similar studies for many other states' wildlife management agencies.

The "best" that ACSL and others could come up with in rejecting WMI's findings, was that some former PGC employees (former upper management types, primarily), now work for WMI.

Having viewed Eveland's various web sites, one might come to the conclusion that his primary accomplishments have been self promotion and hyperbole?

I've been a believer in the antler restriction, if you want to shoot bigger rack bucks. In some areas it is making a difference. For me, where I hunt, it hasn't. I killed my best deer just before it went into effect. It was 4.5 years old. I still shoot some nice bucks, but nothing like the one's you fellows are shooting.
A couple things I've noticed. It sure makes it almost impossible to still hunt through laurel thickets and blackberry tangles, which I enjoy. The restrictions almost force me to sit in a tree, which I don't really enjoy. Where I hunt there is a percentage of the bucks that don't have brow tines, so I really need a lot of time to look them over with my old eyes, even with binoculars. When it rains, which it seems to do a lot in rifle season, the dark stained antlers that are common where I hunt make it almost impossible to count points.
As I said, I'm not opposed to them, it just hasn't show any real effect for me, yet, but I'm hoping over time that will change.
Bfly

Having viewed various websites myself, it seems the majority of folks criticizing Eveland have been you or your friends. Im no Eveland fan, but ive seen no one directly debate him, on any topic. Seems to me, his critics are full of self promotion and hyperbole, among other things. That tight knit group of former PGC employees, and others from various organizations, should be looked at with a watchful eye. Theyll go to great lengths to get what they want. Lobbying to lawsuits, and beyond.

Let me know if you're ready for a new crying towel yet. I have a line on some with the Uninformed Sportsmen of PA logo that you can have, cheap.

Im sure you do. I hope you pricks do well, I really do. You got balls, thats for sure. You'd not see my name on the lawsuit. Being 100% serious here now. I hope you and the other dipschits know, had you all even tried to get trespass fixed I wouldnt have given as much grief as I had. Though I still think the cute couple are both arseholes....and Bodenhorn, cant stand him...theres a lot we agreed on. May not seem like it, but its the truth.

In a perfect world, maybe. But under PA AR rules just the opposite will continue to be the trend.

Hypothetical (yet realistic) scenario:

Spring 2011 two buck fawns are dropped by two does on the same hillside. Both fawns eat the same food, drink the same water and walk the same trails. Fall 2012 the first buck is a 12" wide 7 pointer. Second buck is a Y & spike 3 pointer. Monday morning after Thanksgiving both bucks walk by Fudd and he neatly drops the 7 pointer. Fall 2013 the 2.5 year old (former) 3 pointer is now (or maybe not) a legal deer. He is roaming the same hillside with another 1.5 year buck that grew a 12" 7 point first rack. Although the 1.5 year deer is carrying better rack genetics, he is a year younger and 30-50 lbs lighter. He is not going to get breeding rights over the bigger, yet genetically inferior deer. The 3-point genes get spread while the 7 point genes do not.

What I see is that each successive generation of PA whitetail bucks will take, on average, longer to produce larger racks.

Granted, it's only anecdotal, internet info. But I have seen, on our property, more messed up racks since AR than ever........ A 4.5 or 5.5 year 6 pointer, an 18" or 19" wide 3 pointer, a 3.5 year 5 pointer with 4 on one side and a spike on the other, 2.5 and 3,5 year deer with tiny or no brows ........... and on.

So what if the 7 point buck survives his first season?

And, All it takes is one good dominant buck and he will breed most of the does in a very large area.

Your 3 pointer never gets to spread his genetics, ever, the bigger more dominant bucks take care of that, thanks to AR, there will always be a few to get the job done.

Sometimes he will survive. And he will be a quality breeder. But, absent the illegal kills and the few the kids get, ALL the inferior-racked bucks are artificially preserved to grow another year class older and bigger-bodied. True that one dominant buck can do a lot of breeding. But that's a BIG part of my point. The DOMINANT buck is not necessarily the genetically superior buck. Especially in a program that is allowing inferior rack genetics to gain year classes over the better genetic deer which get taken out at an early age.

but if we go back to no restrictions, you don't even get to wait for that 7point you see him the first year as a spike and will never know what he could have turned into

lots of things are people problems. where would that debate end? all the cans and bottles strewn along the back roads during the hunting season werent placed there by anti hunters. im afraid a large part of the hunting population is made
up by this type individual. ive never archery hunted because i took the 1 deer law seriously and didnt want to sacrifice rifle season. that was always a joke among many others i knew. it was even a joke with 1 hollier than thou former game commissioner by name of david drakula. caught after shooting a second deer with his wifes tag on it. yes theres a people
problem and the game commission is run by people also. ask your potter co friends about the deer situation where they hunt.

I haven't read all the responses, so this may have been covered (and I think Yodel touched on it). I also have never been to PA, so take this for what you paid for it.

ARs work well for a few years, but after some time, you start getting those huge 2X2s and 3X3 being the deer who live through the season and do the breeding. I know of a few hard draws in Idaho (Owyhees to be specific) where once drawn, most folks want a good solid 4X4. The general season is 2X3 or smaller, and half of Boise kills 2 points out there. Problem is, once a guy finally gets that any buck tag, they have to filter out the huge 3X3s and 3X4s to find what he has waited so long for.

I know of a 30+ inch wide 2X3 and several BIG 3X3s that have come out of that area the last few years. Not that there's anything wrong with big 3X3s, but the results speak for themselves.

Game departments have to manage for everyone though, and some folks are perfectly happy shooting the first deer they see. Some folks just want to get their kid on a buck, of any size. Requiring kids to pass on a 2X2 and potentially not take a buck may discourage youngsters. I think ARs make sense in some ways, but requiring statewide ARs is not good business IMO.

Ever wonder how that Drakula fellow got caught????

Hint: Higly doubtful he turned himself in. Ya think????


Pottor county will be back. Until then I would think the wise thing to do would be to hunt where they are and not where they supposedly are not. And a lot more than one somebody bought up every Doe tag for the Pottor County unit. Why?

While deer numbers are down in many areas up there, one look at the Potter paper's big buck contests over the past few years, oughta make some wake up?

Bucks that would've won that contest 10 years ago, aren't even in the top 20 these days.

Have fun looking. Big and small are represented. Potter has always produced some big Bucks, but not in the one year only numbers you will find represented here.

For your viewing pleasure; The Potter Co. 2012 Big Buck results.

Things could and have been a lot worse as far as nice Bucks coming out of Potter. And the kids seem to be doing just fine in removing the little guys and also some of the big ones.




http://tiogapublishing.smugmug.com/Events/2012-Potter-County-Buck

......aaaaand!!!



http://www.endeavornews.com/news/2009-01-24/outdoors/054.html

(Click on the pic to see it better)

Guy I know fussed to me some years ago, that while the bucks are now bigger, we used to get twice as many brought in to our local buck contest, years ago.

Well, yes that is true. Even if half of them were little bucks that guys mostly drove down to weigh. Then there are other changes that've taken place, like the store changing hands sevral years ago and closing earlier now, even on the first few days of rifle deer.

Anyone that hasn't noticed the nicer quality of bucks since ARs came into being in PA, must really have a nasty place to hunt in?

As for kids, some of the big bucks have been taken by junior hunters and even MYH kids, the past few years. And now that is apparently infuriating many older hunters, since the commissioners have considered setting a minimum age for MHY kids?

Too many complaints from old buzzards, grumbling about big buck pics and 9 year olds, it seems?

Hey watch that, or i'll have do quit circling, land and pic your eyes out!!!!

I am officially an ol' buzzard myself, but can no longer get off'n the ground to circle. Advantage to you.

....and some from the western side of the State:

http://s1290.photobucket.com/user/community_chevrolet/slideshow/Big%20Buck%20Contest%202012

And these !!!





Sorry............ couldn't help myself !!!

Got anything more recent of those two? Who knows?

Had some potential, looks like?

Don't know what became of buck #1 the following year. Here's (aptly named) #2.

Nice Buck. Legal in any part of the State. Looks like he has some good size. That right side is improving. In fact it looks like he broke a tine off. I'd be more than happy to tag him or have him fooling around with the Does next year.

He just up and vanished after that pic. Uncle found the badly chewed left shed the next summer but nothing since.

Legal..........yes. But DEFINITELY not the deer I want "improving" the gene pool on my property. In a for-profit deer hunting operation, that deer would be available for management cull at pennies on the dollar.

In those places they pick and choose and Deer are essentially a cash crop. IMO completely different than public land Pa Deer hunting. No matter what system you use or advocate, public land hunting can't be managed to the highest standards of the system due to too many uncontrollable variables. The GC is managing public land Deer and it seems they are getting better at it all the time.

Pa public land is essentially your property. However, the difference is you can't control access to close to a million hunters. And you best hope the GC never goes that route either or you will see limited number hunting license draws, limited permits, limited access, once you draw you are out for so many years. This area is open at this time for those who draw, another at this time for those who draw. This area Bucks only, another does only. I see here on the fire some States go that route and I want no part of it. Deep inside, I feel a long way down the path that is what we eventually may see. Like the old saying goes; "Be careful what you wish for."

I'm one of the old Buzzards and to hell with going back to more Doe than what we know what to do with and a parade of little Bucks.

Well kill him them.

AR's are not responsible for him spreading any genes. That is a legal buck. If he is breeding your does WTF do Pa's AR laws have to do with that?

Your arguments against AR's are irrational and indefensible. You show us 2 pictures of genetic cull bucks and use that as proof that our deer herd is being mismanaged? Yeah, maybe a couple are going to fall through the cracks. It's small potatoes in terms of the big picture though.

The evidence, the pictures and other hunters experiences as testified here, regarding the huge improvement in the overall average quality of Pa bucks in the past 10 years just bounce right off you like tennis balls off a brick wall. Do the deer that others have posted as evidence of their improved deer hunting look like the products of a genetically deteriorating herd? What about age class? What about buck to doe ratio's? What about carrying capacities? What about the overall health of the herd?

Pa deer hunting has changed...for the better. There ain't no going back. The days of watching 40 deer run by hoping there might be 1.5 year old buck at the end of the line are over. And most of us are glad for it. If that chases hunters like you out of the woods, all the better for the rest of us.

Unfortunately, your mind seems to be made up, and it's clear that you don't wish to be confused any further by data, facts or other peoples experiences. Pa's deer herd is doomed to become a herd of genetically inferior animals, managed by a game commission and biologists that don't know nearly as much about it as you do.

I guess if one buys the Alt/PGC plan and its accompanying rhetoric wholesale (or hook, line & sinker) like a good sheep then you are right.

However, if one spends time in the woods actually looking at what is there NOW that was NOT THERE 15, 20 or 30 years ago, an inquiring mind may question some stuff.

NO ARGUMENT from me............... the average rack harvested in PA this fall will be a year class bigger than the average rack harvested in 1990 or whatever pre-AR year you wanna pick.

But the antler GENETICS are on a slow but steady downhill slide. Maybe you are not seeing it where you are. Maybe you choose not to notice. The group of guys that hunts our property (and our self-imposed AR is way stricter than that of the state) have unanimously agreed that there are more spikes and deformed, tiny racks than ever before. There are more bucks 2.5 and older making 6 points or less. There are more bucks not growing brow tines. This NOT my bawl baby opinion. This is what we are SEEING happen with our own eyes.

You may disagree with me til the cows come home. You may also take your data on paper and use it for sanitary purposes. AR has done NOTHING but help screw up what we were doing properly and BETTER by ourselves.

Yoder, nothing youve done, did, nor the PGC AR wise is going to affect the genetics. There are so many variables that can create the situation youre describing, but AR's isnt one of them.

Tell ya what Yoder I don't agree with you, but if ever you need help humping one out don't hesitate to ask and I hope it's a hog.

Oh yea, if it's early the first morning, please be a little patient with me. Sit down, enjoy the morning and I'll be back in a little while. We will get him out and have fun doing it.

Right back at ya !!

Done my fair share of CSI via Coleman lantern in the dark. I am a Charter member of the Loyal Order of Night Bloodhunters. Seems there's a couple of us whose phones ring quite frequently at 10:00 at night in October and November.

"Hey. This is.............. I got one stuck and we done run outta blood....... "

The only ones I haul out for myself are either hogs or baldies. Won't shoot a buck that's not going on my wall.

When the mood strikes I'm not all that particular. Often it's how it comes about that determines the mood.






Addition: That isn't a cull. It's much more, in that they give us more than horns

No flies on that buck !! CONGRATS !! A trophy is in the eyes of the hunter. At least that's the way it SHOULD be. What tickles me may not tickle you or one of your hunting buddies. And vice versa.

That's yet ANOTHER of my gripes (and some of yinz thought I only had one !!!) on AR.

Had an uncle.......... he passed two summers ago.........who was your typical 3 day deer hunter. He'd come up from back east the day after Thanksgiving with my two cousins and they'd hunt Monday and Tuesday. Maybe Wednesday. That was their hunting for the year. But they absolutely LOVED those days !!! The last year my uncle was physically able to get out and hunt, a BIG wide 6-pointer came out of the draw right in his lap. Uncle had only ever shot a handful of bucks in his life and by his admission this was the biggest buck he had ever seen in the woods. Would have been the trophy of his LIFETIME.

Couldn't shoot it. Not legal. Not a trophy in the mind of a biologist or on a data sheet somewhere.

One thing I would change given the power. Over something-70-80-I'll let the GC make the rules, AR is off the table. Makes things so much easier, because sometimes rules are made to be broken.

Within 5-600 yards of the little guy. Pa has the genes and always did have them. Only difference now is more get to sprout. Give the little guy a couple more years and he would have also. Give number two a few more and he may have been awesome. In Pa there are just too many shooters. Sounds like you have a place that you can manage-at least a little-as long as you keep us rif-raf away. The GC doesn't have that option and that makes a big difference.

Addition: Just a thought: You mentioned that the Bucks you had on camera being worth pennies on the dollar on a properly managed piece of property. Well, the Deer on those pay to shoot parcels are usually on an enhanced feeding program. In many cases the natural habitat they live in wouldn't produce those kinds of horns, nor would it support the number of Deer that often reside there. Which is more artificial? That environment or Pa public land?

Junior hunters can shoot any buck with one 3" antler.

Wouldn't mind seeing that apply to seniors either.

Guess if you look hard enough there is always common ground...somewhere.

Yep there is, sometimes we just have to look for it.... Or see it when it shows up.

Model 70 - good man.

Nice bucks Battue. I'm gonna bust me a big SF buck this yr, pics to come... haha

I get to see buster bucks in late summer into fall, every year now and I enjoy seeing them in good numbers, compared to what we were used to years ago.

Just wish I could also see one come around when the deer seasons start?



Okay, grumble over. Great to see folks taking some nice bucks now where I hunt, whether I ever get around to it, or not. Just knowing such bucks are in the area, keeps my interest up.

What is most of you Pennsylvanians take on Sunday hunting? For? Against?
We are gearing up for the fight here in Va. and it looks like PA will be our case to use if it is successful there.
We are slowly starting to add some antler restrictions here but not in my county yet.

My take is... Hell Yeah! Our working class guys should have an extra day to pursue their passion on their day off. Thing is, Pa's hunters opinions aren't even considered. The PGC gestapo does as it pleases. On a more personal note sunday has always been a good day to be in the woods.

We cannot get it to a vote on the house floor, this after the VADGIF gave their approval. Politicians won't let it out of the Ag.committee!!

Not even close with that one. To the contrary, the PGC commissioners voted over a year ago to accept the authority to handle more Sunday huntng, IF the legislature ever grants it to them.

PGC cannot authorize any hunting on Sunday that hasn't been approved by our wonderful legislature and they ain't interested in any changes.

No bill to legalize any more Sunday hunting in PA, has ever made it out of committee. Including one last year that was supported by that committee's chairmen in the House.

We can hunt coyotes on Sundays. Crows when in season and foxes as well. That's it. All of those exceptions were approved by the legislature.

Here are my personal opinions to some of the questions/comments in this thread:

- AR restrictions are fine

-Remove AR restrictions from Sr Hunters (good idea whomever mentioned that one) so then the Jr's & Sr's can work on their first and their last bucks of the lifetime

-leave the season the same length (NY has a longer deer season and it doesn't have that same "opening day" effect, also takes away any interest in bow or muzzleloader hunting since I have 6weeks to get a deer up here)

-sunday hunting, I can see a lot of arguments for it, but I personally still like to leave sunday for families, church, and the non-hunters to have a day to go for a walk in the woods without disrupting hunters

No mention of your lawsuit? Im shocked!!

Hopefully, whichever way the suit shakes out, we can get back to normal, if there is such a thing. At least until we can get bigger backing to combine agencies. Then we can start hating each other all over again....lol.

I believe Sr.s were exempted from the AR when the PGC first proposed them. Enough senior hunters said no, we'll follow them too. So now only kids are able to shoot the inferior ones like I mentioned earlier.

Those one horned bucks I spoke of earlier looked nothing like the pictures Yoder (?) was calling inferior. The one horn was a spike that tried to grow points but only grew bumps and was about 5-8 inches long. The other antler was broke off at about 2 inches. This in farm country where the normal rack was a 12-15 inch wide 7 point or thereabouts. Those unicorns I shot were definitely poor. And the fact that I shot 3 of them over the course of 4 years tells me they were breeding.

IMO, something needed to be done to bring the herd back into balance, there were too many does and not enough bucks. OK, that has been addressed. Now get rid of the AR and let me shoot whatever buck I want using a method that doesn't penalize me for not sitting in a tree with all the time in the world to count points.

I could support limited expansion of Sunday hunting under certain conditions. The regular firearms deer season ain't one of them.

Dale

DaleK,

Why can't you walk through the woods or still hunt under AR? If you can't sneak up on some-nobody sneaks up on all of them-Deer and observe the rack with them being unaware, that is not a problem with regard AR.

Dunno? They seem content to shoot deer on Sundays in Ohio, New York and apparently quite a few other states around us - so why not here, too??

We have far more deer (and deer hunters) than most of those states do, so why the problem if someone wants to hunt deer on a Sunday?

I can accept farm owners wanting to have a non-hunting day for a variety of reasons. That doesn't mean that Game Lands or National and State Forests should be closed also.

And if a farmer wanted to hunt on his own land on a Sunday, then what.

I wouldn't care for a second if he wanted to hunt his own land on a Sunday. Even more so if I could hunt it Monday thru Saturday. However, even if I couldn't it would make little difference.

Fact is, can't he hunt his own land now on Sunday if he does it for crop damage?
Some shoot Deer year round for crop damage presently.

Yeah, but legitimate killing of deer for crop damange is not hunting.

Different rules, same outcome: Dead deer. But deer killed for crop damage must be turned over to an officer. I think a farmer can keep one for meat, unless that's changed and they probably couldn't keep the antlers, if a nice buck were shot?

What I meant was, if any more Sunday hunting is ever approved and it's only for public land, then farmers or other land owners are hosed, if they wish to hunt on their land on a Sunday.

Didn't think of that side of the coin. However, they shouldn't be able to have it both ways. In that the agricultural lobby exerts political pressure to not allow Sunday hunting on private farms/woodlots and also expect what they want to apply to public, which Pa has more than a little.

They fact they get to influence the rules on private land shouldn't carry over to an abundant pubic recreational resource.

And with more and more farmers "hosing" hunters by not allowing any hunting any time the situation has been altered. At one time the farmer and the hunter for the most part were on the same side. Today that isn't always true. I've always been on the side of the farmer and always will be, but it is a two way.

PA Farm Bureau opposes more Sunday hunting in PA and are the handy excuse that the legislators use for not touching this subject.

When Ohio went through the process of gradually adding more Sunday hunting, the Ohio Farm Bureau and Ohio's wildlife agency worked together to phase it in. Now it is no longer and issue, although unlike PA, Ohio has trespass laws that actually work.

Here, it's a different story, as the PA Farm Bureau refuses to even discuss it. Or as their chief spokesman, Mr. Rotz is supposed to have said last year: "What part of NO don't you understand?"

What many do not realize, is that PFB is primarily composed these days of what most call "gentleman farmers". Most of the actual farmers I know who belong to PFB, do so primarily for the insurance discounts. Few that I've spoken with, are opposed to more Sunday hunting.

Only those engaged in commercial farming (what most would call "real" farmers), are entitled to a vote at PFB meetings, but they tout their overall membership numbers when presenting their side to legislators.

Last time I looked, PFB has about 50,000 members and probably half of them are not entitled to vote on PFB issues, due to their not being commericially involved in agriculture as a means of making a living.

So, nearly a million hunting license buyers in PA (IIRC, 979,000), roughly half of whom favor some added Sunday hunting, vs perhaps as few as 20,000 PFB voting members?

Their primary threat is "more" posted land if any more Sunday hunting ever comes to pass. Duh! These days the majority of farm land is already posted. Either no hunting at all, or hunting only with permission.

Va Farm Bureau is one of our largest groups against Sunday hunting as well. I pay[dearly] in taxes to have my own land with the primary reason being to hunt it. People/families taking a leisurely stroll on my land are most likely trespassers. As it is[ no Sunday hunting] there seems to be much more "shooting" on any given Sunday than the rest of the week.
Also-Virginia has decided to open our state run ABC stores on Sunday. So most everything one wants to do is available on Sunday with the exception of............

There was a time the politicians feared a million pa hunters, but we no longer stick together.

Or maybe most no longer care enough.

Most care, more than we know, but know little about how to get things changed. You are correct, in that the changes in the last decade or so has pit hunter against hunter. You have certain groups which are a small vocal minority speaking for the rest, who happen to feel they have no voice. The best they can do, which happened to work out well with HB 1760, is write their legislators.

Hunters dont have to be split, but groups such as QDMA, PFSC, UBP, etc have become more extreme in their views. Theres always been concerns, such as our primitive seasons and the use of cross bow or inlines, but these days these groups tackle more extreme topics such as sunday hunting and our deer management plan. Instead of taking a middle of the road approach, most organizations seem to have taken the views of the vocal minorities instead.

Ive said a million times, we are headed for more posted land and commercialization, much the same as you find in the mid west. Again, it doesnt have to be this way, but unfortunately there are a few, who im not going to name, that feel they know whats best for hunters and hunting in PA. And as much as they tout the need to keep politicians out of hunting, they sure know how politics work and are routinely head deep in it.

Deer drives. To me, it's a chess game, figure out where the deer are, which way they will go, where should the posters stand etc. Way too often, there isn't time to evaluate if buck is legal or not as he is moving through the brush or hurrying across a gas line and you don't get a shot. Much more interesting than sitting in some tree waiting (hoping) a deer will decide to get up and move.

Let me explain my sunday stance a bit further. I would happily support sunday hunting for 'quiet seasons' where there is not much shooting (bear, muzzleoader, turkey etc) but not for the 'noisy' seasons like dove or rifle deer. That comes from living on a farm that was open for public hunting in the southeast, it was so nice to not hear gunshots on Sundays. I put up with the noise 6 days a week, give me one day of not being bothered.

Anyone who doesn't want hunters on Sunday should not have to post their property 'closed to sundays'. Instead, let those who want to hunt on sunday post their property 'open to sundays'. No signs, it's closed, stay off. It's that simple.

State land as I said before should be open, (with the above mentioned season restrictions).

Unless you have been on the receiving end of a continuous stream of hunters, you have no idea what it is like.

Might as well hit the other hot topic in Pa. I'm in favor of legalizing semi-auto rifles for hunting.

Dale

This. THIS !!!!!

Man, you Yankee states have lots of problems to figure out.

Deer drives done right may be the most efficient way to kill Deer. It was a family tradition for a long time and fun. I lost interest in it maybe 15 years ago. I see your point for that type of hunting.

As far as AR and the GC, I favor it, but looking back mistakes were made in that they pounded the Does too hard and subsequently lost the support of many. I said previously they seem hesitant to admit their mistakes and I think the hunters for the most part would have been enthusiastic towards the program if they could just cross paths with a few more Deer in the course of a day in the big woods. No doubt the big woods can easily support more Deer than it currently has and still allow the forest habitat to regenerate. Then again just having fewer Deer will not allow that to happen. The big wood needs opened up. Timber it off. Burn it off is unthinkable in todays environment. The good Quail plantations of the South do just that today. It is a part of the management plan. Although years ago in the 60's I heard from the old-timers of the day they did exactly that here in Pa. I've bought into AR, but the GC seems unwilling to admit that more Deer wouldn't necessarily make the entire program fail. It would cause them some grief, but no Doe hunting in the big woods for a maybe three to five years just may bring the numbers up enough that AR can still work and hunters may be more willing to buy in.

Some blame is placed on the Coyotes. But you would think that if that is the case more would be shot during the Deer Season when the most shooters are out. I don't hear of all that many being taken. Increased Bear population? I don't know enough to write an opinion.

Posting? I don't think you could or can stop it. The TV shows promote it. People have bought into it. I know people who may have 50 or 100 acres who think they can manage their land to increase the number of Deer. They talk about "their" Deer as if they are some big long term management operation. Nothing wrong with making your piece favorable for a Deer to spend some time hanging around. Nothing wrong with making your piece the best it can be for long term conservation, but they have no impact on the big picture when they can walk off and be shot by who knows who.

Armstrong Co up until the early 90s was pretty much wide open. Now it is hard to find an opening. I still hunt the big woods, but also on a lease with 20 others on 1000acres. The fee is $800 per year. Most of the hunters only use it maybe 4-5 days during rifle season, but there are a handful into hard core archery The owner did it for one reason which was to find a way to pay the $14,000 per year taxes. Other than that he wouldn't be in the lease business and would have it to himself and friends.

Some errors have been made and each year more have the I have mine to hell with you attitude. No easy answers.

Get real after Tues the Deer woods are essentially empty. DaleK, you mentioned you have some years on you. Do you remember what it was like when Pa had more than a few wild Pheasants. A field may have 30 to 40 people pushing thru it and others would be waiting to get on. Hunters were more abusive of trespass than today. Today is nothing even close to what it was in the past. I've been there, seen it and I'm not buying it.

And yes I have a small 56 acre parcel of the old family place in Tidel, Pa. Armstrong, Co. I leave it open to hunting and occasionally go over and see what is going on. Exceptionally quiet for the most part. Biggest problem I've had was one time out of curiosity asking a fellow if he had permission to hunt there. His reply was oh yes, most certainly. I found that a little funny and told him why it give me a chuckle. He wasn't sure what to say and after a bit I told him to enjoy his hunt.


....and the time I happened to wonder onto the adjoining piece and noticed this guy walking toward me with a purpose. I waited and he started reading me the riot act. I listened and then asked him if the ----- still owned this particular piece of ground and if he ever hunted "over there." He said yep. At which time I informed him who my relatives were and that I bought it back in the early 70's and my Grandmother was a ----- and subsequently we were relatives. He said; "Ah, it's been awhile and I didn't recognize you." We both laughed a little.

Our family farmhouse was on top of a fairly high hill overlooking a 350 foot drop-off to the Conoquenessing Creek in Pennsylvania. From the brick wall of the rear of the house to the drop-off was, maybe, 25 feet. We had to chase away two hunters who climbed up that hill and decided that they could stand at either end of the house and watch the creek below for deer. The problem was that the kids didn't looking out the windows at these two idiots while they ate their breakfast before they went to school. Trespassing was insane 30 years ago, we even had shot falling into the swimming pool on opening day of dove season - and there were about ten people in the pool!

Terry

Armstrong County is a long way from Montgomery. Yeah, I remember the hordes of pheasant hunters. I don't support Sunday hunting for small game either.

When I lived down east, on Sept. 1, we would be woken at dawn by people shooting at the resident geese. By 10 AM or so, the goose hunters were leaving and the dove hunters were arriving for the noon opener. The first crew would leave about 3 PM and the after work guys would show up. Then the after dinner crowd was there until dark. I was there ALL day. Each hunter must have been a horrible shot as it was always bang-bang-bang. Next day it started all over again. Sunday, I got to sleep in and then could sit on my porch without hearing gunshots.

If I (a hunter) appreciated a day of quiet, I'm sure the non hunting neighbors did too. Thus my support for expanding only 'quiet seasons'.

Sunday deer hunting would be a lot busier than 'after the first Tuesday'.

Dale

The PA gun season is 2 weeks long. That means if you do not take advantage of the primitive weapons seasons, most people and more importantly most kids get to hunt 2 days (the Saturdays) a year. Hell 20 years ago opening day of deer season, every school in Pa. school was closed. Probably some still closed in some of the more rural areas, but not like it used to be.

Sunday hunting would double their opportunities. With the price of fuel who is going to drive halfway across the state to hunt 1 day. Kids probably have a soccer game that day anyhow.

Recruitment of new hunters will continue to deteriorate until Pa climbs off their bibles and allows Sunday hunting like most of the rest of the civilized world.

Who is going to be hunting in Pa 20 years from now when most of the current license holders in Pa are dead?

I do not see a bright future for the sport of hunting in Pa. My generation (baby boomers) are the last of the Pa hunters.

It's sad...but true.

....and there are two Sundays during rifle Deer season. What's it like on the other 50? I know, I know the sound of those arrows during archery is deafening.


Addition: The more old farts I'm around the more I hate to admit being one. Nor do I enjoy hanging around with them all that much for the most part. Usually bitching about something.

Dale it's 2 days a year dude. Give me a frickin break.

Give these families the time, the opportunities and a reason to spend time together.

I hunted every Saturday and Sunday of the season with my dad and brothers, grandfathers and uncles In NY state when I was a kid. They are some of the best memories of my life. Not so sure we would have gotten together to hunt Saturday and then go home Sunday.

Ain't that the truth!

And again, me and mine are much more likely to "shoot" many, many more times on a Sunday than any other day of the week. It's just that it isn't hunting, just target shooting.

would you not agree theres a lot more to bitch about?
used to be the evening news was a half hour then somebody like jackie gleason took over.
used to be women had a choice of staying home and raising kids.
used to be anybody with ambition could do well and buy a home.
and yes it used to be there were lots of pheasants.
we are being lied to from every branch of government including the game commission.
a case in point. last week my brother in law who is a property owner here and who has also been hunting here
for over 50 years visited the elk visitors center on the now famous winslow hill.
there was a dcnr employee there giving a demonstration and answering questions.
my brother in law questioned him on d map doe tags. the guy denied knowing anything about it.
my brother in law is more reserved than me.

Truth is I have a lot of respect for the old-timers and enjoy them and their stories for the most part. Perhaps I was a little too hard on DaleK.

One of the funniest family old-fart bitching stories was told to me by an Uncle and it occurred between my Granddad and Grandmother up on the farm I previously mentioned. They had finally got indoor plumbing, but the outhouse still stood fully functional. One cold winter night Granddad who was frail before his time from the mines, and couldn't afford a fall, got up and bundled up to go outside and do his business. Grandma said; "Dang Gene, we have an indoor toilet, no need to go outside in the snow and cold." He replied: "Mum I ain't chit in the house since I was a baby and I ani't about to start now. So just leave me alone."


Oh and by the way: Back in those days if they saw more than a couple Deer in a field in Armstong, it was cause to twist the handle on the phone and tell one of your Buds.

I've also been told that it was cause for the men to get together and track or drive it down until they killed it. Lots of things are different than what used to be.

Good bitch, get it out and you may feel better. But I can't guarantee it.

No use bitching now about sunday hunting. The lawsuit is already in play. Once it plays out, each side can move forward with whatever plans lay ahead.

Lead, follow or get out of the way. I'll take actions over bitching.

Bitching is nothing if not tedious.

Jr's (most kids in school) have a Jr. doe season with rifle

many schools still close the first day, my school always closed the first 2 days. even the college I went to in PA let us skip the first 2 days of deer season!

most days my dad and I were out after school or before school if I wanted to be

The special antlerless season is Oct. 24-26. That is a Thrus, Fri and Sat.

It is not only open to Jr's but also us old-farts over 65, disabled hunters and Pa. residents on active duty in the military. Would an extra Sunday hurt the Deer population in any significant way? And if they thought it would, cut the remaining Doe tags back to make up for it. Up to me and I would give them a whole week.

Whee, I feel better.

They won't cut doe tags back.. that cuts revenue.. 1 million does tags x 6.00 $ not all tags are sold but some tags sell for 26 $ to non res.. do the math..

Sunday hunting is needed imo..it would be grest for me and my 2 kids. I know many guys whi work 6 days a week with little vacation to take as well and it would help them.. back in the day many factories closed up for the opener not anymore....

As for A.R. in my 22 years of hunting the bucks haven't been as good on average as they are now but there used to be more bucks and does for that matter..A.R. would have been better served with less HR...herd reduction..

I'm all for A.R. but if the pgc went back to the 3" rule I wouldn't mind. I won't shoot a scrub anymore and the mindset of many others is the same. Self imposed a.r. would be better now if they let deer numbers come up a bit with it

Yup, nobodys opinion means squat...

Opinion is just that, opinion. Never seen coffee house chat amount to much.

I'll bet you if you opened up sunday hunting you would lose a lot of the excitement/drive that there currently is about those first few days.


Bear season now opens on a saturday, so instead of it being wednesday that is hit or miss for the group going out, it's monday that we are scrambling for people since many will hunt saturday and go back to work instead of taking off the whole week for bear like they used to

Also when you start getting the seasons too long it isn't a matter of more animals being taken, it's less exciting so people will go to a soccer game, or sit inside becuase it's raining today.

in my opinion from living in NY for a few years with a 6 week rifle season & hunting on sundays: a short fast furious season as it currently is really does get people out there more, and sunday is a nice break to relax at camp or at the house watch a football game, talk with friends/family then get back into it for a second week.


for kids in school.... you have deer anatomy, tree identification, physical education, math (counting points) so if the parents wanted to they could get their kids out an extra couple of days just have to be creative with that school excuse

You missed all the ones where the participants were gonna save the world.

My older daughter is taking her Hunter Safety course this Oct. She has a total of 4 days she can hunt deer with a rifle without missing a day of school. But she also plays soccer and basketball so usually Saturdays are game day so she would only be able to hunt a few hours those days. If we added Sundays to rifle season maybe more guys would go back up to camp for the weekends.

How right you are! I thought Jackson and Sharpton invaded PA!! Tell everyone, which one were you playing...Jesse, or Al??? Maybe Farrakhan?? Those poor defenseless souls who never got to hunt because they had a job, because they had kids....suffering since 1873!!! We must RISE above this madness and set them FREE!! FREE AT LAST! FREE AT LAST! THANK GOD ALMIGHTY, WE ARE FREE AT LAST!!

And when your battle cry turned into a whimper with the legislature sending you all packing......LETS SUE! Constituents be damned! And like a homeless bum begging for food on the corner you all slummed the forums and newspapers for money.....FILL OUR BUCKETS WITH WATER AND WE'LL GIVE YOU WHINE(pun intended )............

Tell me, how hard was it to sign your name to the suit? I bet you used an official PGC pen didnt you?

It always boils down the pro Sunday guys just want the Sundays in rifle deer season, they don't give a rat's patoot about the other species or weeks. And it isn't too long in a discussion before "It's for the kids" comes out.

Fact is, kids have plenty of opportunity to go hunting. The PGC tries to schedule the youth small game hunts to include Columbus day when many schools are off. Even if your school doesn't close for the deer opener, it's no problem to put in for an 'educational field trip' as a legal excuse to take the day off. We did it a couple of times down east, my son just had to write a 'biology report' and do the homework assigned. The school in Montco didn't get deer season off but we did in Lancaster. Somerset gets 2 days.

Sometimes, kids need to learn they can't have their cake and eat it too. I had friends who did school sports, sometimes they couldn't go hunting because of practice. Tough choice but they happen in life.

Remember, I'm in favor of expanding Sunday hunting too. In my perfect world (hah!) it doesn't include rifle deer or small game and private land is considered closed unless posted open but pretty much everything else is good.

What's wrong with a compromise like that? We all get additional hunting time and I still get some quiet Sundays.

Dale

Becoming obvious that it's all about you. Thinking I was correct from the beginning.

I and about 8 friends would really like to hunt Grouse on Sundays. Normally a deep woods bird, not an excessive amount of shooting for the most part these days and there are probably more than a few across the State that would appreciate it also. You can add in some dedicated Squirrel, Pheasant and Rabbit hunters into the mix across the State and the numbers will be more than a few.

I know, I know it's all about the kids. Well, if my kid was going I would be upfront and say he/she is going Deer, Grouse, Duck hunting or whatever. No need to beat around the bush. "Educational field trip", what a pile of BS.

And if spending time hunting with Kids is important then "It's for the Kid's" rings true.

Again it's obviously all about you and there are more than a few of us who really care less about some grouchy old-fart who only thinks of his quiet Sunday. Most of us outdoor types would much rather spend the Sunday hunting and sometimes doing it with Kids who not only get to kick up their heels, but make some noise doing it.

You don't want to include rifle Deer OR small game in your Sunday compromise? We already have that where is the compromise?

And you want to make it mandatory that the farmer/private land owner take the time to post their property that Sunday hunting is permitted. I can just imagine how anxious they will be to comply with the time and expense it will take to comply. I'm also sure some absentee land owner who lives a considerable distance from the property will be thrilled to drive the distance and take the time and effort to post. We know exactly why you would like that to be part of your so called compromise. No thanks again.

Wow....some people really have it all figured out don't they..the constituents. ..aka...farm beareau. Is all that has blocked sunday hunting. love the its all about rifle deer ...classic..
Come say hello when we are squirrel turkey grouse pheasant archery and bear hunting..got pics of all of it with myself and the kids. And no an extra day a week won't make it less exciting..it will add a day for us to hunt period.

Please explain to me why my families land or my lease should or any landowners property should be off limits on Sunday to them to do as they wish on sunday..to satisfy the other half of the constituents aka farm beareau..

DaleK

Notice your residence is Somerset, Pa. By coincidence I'm often end up there and often on a Sunday. Usually in a couple nice country locations. In the spirit of compromise perhaps we could meet some Sunday.

I'll give you the addresses and you can PM me if you would like to meet some Sunday.

776 Schoolhouse Road
Somerset, Pa

510 Kimmel Rd
Berlin, Pa.

You should really enjoy both places on a Sunday. Beautiful outdoor scenery with more than a little to offer those who enjoy the outdoors.

Bringing a shotgun is optional. You can just sit and enjoy the magnificent views and enjoy being with others who appreciate the same if you desire.

Offered in the spirit of compromise.

Curious as to why the folks all up in arms to get Sunday hunting instituted for "expanded opportunity" are not up in arms for a Saturday opener to deer season ??

Every other deer hunting tradition in PA has been turned on its ear. Yet a guy who works Monday through Friday has to take a vacation day (if he has one or can) to hunt the deer opener. Seems that more and more schools are dropping the first day of deer season in favor of "just another school day".

But, yet, on every forum I've seen this brought up, the VAST majority of guys voice a resounding "No !! Hell No !!"

If it's about expanded opportunity.............. why not ??

All this from a thread about seeing a few big bucks spotlighting. Personally, i'm kinda embarressed that our hunters can't agree on anything.

I'm sure you already know the reason for many, but my take:

Some traditions are hard to break. Drive up and open up camp on the weekend before the Monday opener. Hookup with fellow camp members of not only your place but other camps as well. Perhaps do a little scouting and generally get ready is a big deal to many. Something ingrained into the psych of more than a few.

However, a Saturday opener would be fine with me.

I have no problems with a Saturday opener. Every season other than rifle deer basically comes in on a Saturday. We focus more on archery and small game. Rifle is mostly for the kids. I always save a day of vacation for it. Would be nice to use that day elsewhere. Less and less family members hunt and more oftenthan not theyd be out there if season opened on a Saturday.

As much as I like the added day that VDGIF so kindly gave us by changing our openers to Saturday[for all deer seasons] it did kill that tradition of rolling into and setting up camp. Something I miss but will live with to get that 3rd Saturday of hunting.
For a small family business owner/operator in the current economic environ I can hardly get a week day.

Same thing with moving the bear opener to a Saturday.

Some liked it, some did not. Biggest complaint I heard, was that people were used to heading for bear camp Friday night or Saturday morning and having two days to settle in, scout a bit, socialize and get ready for Monday.

Now some grumble that they have to take a Friday off just to drive to camp and do all of the things they once did on Saturday and Sunday, to be ready to hunt Saturday morning.

Those who may live in "bear country" or have camps fairly close to home, apparently adapted better? And yes, it did allow more youngsters to participate.

What really gets me more than anything is the fact Chipmunks are protected in Pa. There are tons of them them and I think we should lobby for a season. Perhaps .22lr only, should be sporting. Sunday hunting only to give us something to hunt on that day and with a .22lr restriction the noise shouldn't bother the sensative types. Always wanted a Chipmunk fur coat.

Ok fellow fire members.

I just received a PM from someone who knows DaleK on a first name basis and politely informed me he is a pretty good guy and a standup member of the Pa hunting community. Said he is definitely old school, but he has shared a camp with him and respects him greatly. He doesn't always agree with him, but respects him.

The PM was from a long term fire member who from his posts I respect.

Dale, if I was a little too hard on you I apologise. But dang it man, lighten up. We are all in this together.

I'll be in PA for at least one Sunday in October. Think I'll bring a rifle and fire off a 100 rounds, just in honor of Dale.

Amazing how one state with a 2 week'ish gun season can have such a problem with Sunday hunting. No wonder Rubik's cubes never sold well in Pencilvainya.

Unwillingly and unfortunately, I'm beginning to think you may be right.

thats a very old and worn out cliche usually spoken by someone who never led at anything.
im glad your happy with the way things have(progressed) in this country and this state
in particular as to the quality of the hunting. mind you ive heard no answer other than an acknowledgment
about the dcnr and its managment roll over our deer herd. so yes ill continue bitch while you lead on.
as for the court case over sunday hunting. whats the odds of this being thrown out also as was another case
recently?


















progressed

Unfortunately, we're not. Neither side has compromised at all. And quite frankly, id be surprised if either ever do. I know im not ready. Im hoping things get sorted out in the courtroom quickly. One way or another, lets get this chapter over with.

yobuck,

The video said approximately 4000 Deer were taken with DMAP permits. You probably don't believe it. You were told the Pa Deer kill last year was around 300,000. You probably don't believe it. All 4000 didn't come off of DCNR controlled land. You probably don't believe it.

I happen to believe there are enough good people in the GC that they would bring out any lies if they see excessive corruption. You don't believe that either obviously.

As far as your condemnation of the condition of the country, if you are in your 60s like myself, let me give you a heads up. It happened on our watch. But you probably don't believe that either.

On the Sunday hunting deal: is there the option of a ballot referendum back there? Get enough signatures on a petition and have the voters decide.

Some good and bad can come from that process though. Here in Oregon we can hunt/fish on Sundays, but the voters took away hound hunting and baiting for big cats and bear.

I'm damn glad they did away with no Sunday hunting here in NY many years ago. I'm also damn happy they changed the rifle opener from Monday to Saturday. Makes it a helluvalot easier on those of us who work for a living to get out hunting. They can stick their damned antler restriction up their collective azzes however. There have always been some big bucks roaming NY {I killed a 195 lb. dressed, 137 incher way back in 1981} and if anybody wants to kill one today they can get off their dead, lazy azz and go find one. It isn't of any interest to me to give up my freedom of choice as to what buck I shoot to provide trophy bucks under every damn bush for the lazy and incompetent. The only thing that makes a buck a "trophy" is rarity anyway so the more you make, the less they're worth.

I'll have to thank him. And so far I consider this to be a gentlemanly discussion. I knew what I was getting into when I waded into this fight. PM inbound on invites. But shooting clubs/ranges aren't the same as hunting. And yeah, my proposal is about what I want, just like you are advocating all sundays, all seasons which is what you want. But no one seems to like my compromise, that must mean it's the middle ground.

To me, compromise means somebody has everything (darn little sunday hunting) and somebody else wants everything (all seasons, all sundays but especially deer). My 'solution' (and I did say earlier that it was in a perfect world ) means nobody is completely happy but the pro sunday folks get some (40 or so of 52) additional Sundays and anti sunday folks still keep most of the quiet they now have.

Yes, grouse is generally quiet. I just lumped all small game together to avoid micromanaging seasons (ie. no dove in Montco but grouse in Somerset). My idea could be tweaked.

Posting the land open wouldn't have to involve a bunch of signs like no trespassing does. One or two signs at the main access point to the property with landowner contact information would be fine. Why should private landowners who don't want to be bothered have to post their land against Sundays? The statement 'Private land is considered closed unless specifically posted open for Sunday hunting' seems pretty clear and easy to follow.

I belong (voting member) to Farm Bureau. It's actually a somewhat contentious issue there too as some counties are in favor but so far the 'opposed' outnumber them. FB members own a lot of property, much of it is enrolled in PGC access programs. So when FB members say 'we'll post it all', it does deserve consideration.

I think part of Farm Bureau's opposition stems from not knowing what the PGC would approve if the legislature simply said 'set the seasons'. If the approving legislation was more specific, there might be less opposition. But I could be wrong on that.

Hell, I belong to a sportsmen's club in Clearfield County, not all of those guys are in favor of Sundays either.

Dale

I haven't hunted PA in quite a few years but have to say the no Sunday hunting thing is still a mystery to me.

It makes no sense at all? Why don't ya close it on Wednesday? or any other day?

Oh well....

Dale- I have a lot of family around Somerset. Pop grew up on S. Kimberly, still have aunts, uncles and a few of cousins around.

Hunted grouse, squirrel and deer every year down past Berlin at the hunting cabin growing up.

Fond memories.

Dale

Most definitely shooting clubs and ranges can be different than hunting. Especially when it comes to shooting and making noise. Buffer Creek in Berlin held the State Sporting clay shoot this year. It was a four day event. T-F-S-Sun. 250 participants, and each shoot a minimum of 200 targets on Saturday and Sunday alone. On those two days a minimum of 50,000 12Gauge shells were fired. The entire four days probably doubled that. Absolutely no Sunday hunting scenario would even come remotely close.

Now that was an exceptional weekend, but it is not rare for either place to run 50 to 100 shooters through each Saturday and Sunday, with every shooter shooting close to or over 100 shells. And yes there are times I wonder if the neighbors don't get a little fed up with us.

However again, no sunday hunting situation could come close to equaling the shooting that goes on at those two clubs in your area. They are not rare. We have them across the entire State of Pa and many are just as active or even more so. Shooting is shooting. From a noise perspective it makes no difference if it originates from hunting or a club. And it is another reason why we must hang together.

Seven Springs, again fairly close to you may run a couple hundred shooters through most every weekend and it is not rare for them to do the same during a corporate event during the week. Most definitely hunting clubs and shooting ranges shoot way more on average than any hunting situation, yet for the most part they exist peacefully with their neighbors. Of course many of them have to contend with those one or two individuals who are a constant thorn.

Your compromise still gives me way to little wiggle room to climb in and sign on. You want me, then you're going to have to open up. She may be worth 8 pigs, but I just can't afford that many.

I belong to a sportsman's club in Armstrong Co. The vast majority of the members oppose Sunday hunting. A lot of our members are farmers (maybe FB members, I don't know) and/or landowners. Consensus there also runs "we post it all".

It's a slippery slope, I think. Maybe a case of "watch what you wish for because you just might get it" for the pro-Sunday hunting crowd. The majority of guys hunt on land they do not own. Private land access is rapidly drying up statewide already.

Not to take away from this fine sunday hunting debate , but one particular regarding antler restrictions that may need looked at, and quickly if conditions mandate, is CWD. I live in the heart of the affected area. The very premise of antler restrictions, gaining age, can potentially wreak havoc in a CWD area. AR by design give us one more year an infected animal can spread the disease, and as you all know once infected, prions can last just under 20 years.

We know Dept of AG hasnt treated the outbreak the way it should have, and continue to make questionable decisions to this day in the affected area. Say the area expands. Say another area, on a much grander scale breaks out. Is the PGC, or for that matter hunters in general, ready to accept that AR's may need to be dropped temporarily, or permanently, to gain a foothold in stopping the spread of this disease?

That's a lot of shooting! But it was 4 days, then it was over. Everyone stayed in one place, there weren't any cows out in the pasture to maybe get hit, and the competitors did not leave their shells laying around.

Early dove season (my biggest but not only gripe) lasts a month and there are folks shooting every legal day. I had to worry about the cattle and fences on 6 days, one worry free day was nice. Try taking a Sunday afternoon nap on the porch when every dove gets 3 shots. You can't. Or someone showing up at suppertime to ask if he could hunt. Nice that they asked but their timing sucked. That's the reality of being a farmer who permits hunting by the public. That's why I suggest private land be closed unless posted open. You deal with them asking one day a week, I'll continue to do it the other six.

I grew up on farm that was (and still is) enrolled in the PGC Farm Game project. We are willing to share our land but like to have one day when we don't. I'm even willing to share that one day with a few relatively quiet hunters. But not hordes.

Hunters only see it from the few hours or couple of days they are out there. Landowners (especially farmers) are there 24/7/365.

The other thing is that farmers often keep the Sunday workload down so they can spend time with their families. Or go visiting. They don't want to be interrupted or get a call that the cows are out because some hunter shorted the fence so he could retrieve his game.

You do realize, if they hunt, they are under the same restrictions as you and I.

Frankly, I don't see Farm Bureau not opposing a bill to create a 'carte blanche' expansion for a long time. A bill that spells out limited expansion may fly, I don't know.

But I do know that when a politically active organized group that owns lots of land (much of which is in public access programs) says "We'll post", that gets the attention of legislators.

Didn't Ohio ease into with only public land first? Why can't we do that here? Why does every supporter of Sunday hunting want it all right now?

Dale

Suits me, I think the AR did the job they needed to, now it is time for them to go away.

Dale

CWD is a direct result of AR's?

Bwahahahah!

Well if you are going to use that logic, why not just kill them all?

Problem solved...no more CWD.

If thats what you took from that, you need to get back on your meds.

Agreed. No need for them when hunter and deer numbers are at current levels.

They ain't going to post their property cause they are the same guys crying that the deer are destroying their crops.

It's a hollow threat. They are bluffing. They are all in with nothing.

The reason 90% of these guys are in the public access program isn't because they are great guys and care about Pa deer hunting or Pa deer hunters. The deer are pests, hooved rats if you will that are hitting them where it count...in the wallet.

When push comes to shove they aren't going to let the deer run them over and cost them thousands or 10's of thousand or in some case 100's of thousand of dollars because the state opens Sunday hunting. They talk tough cause they want to control access, but the ones that are in the public access programs can flat out not afford to kick everybody out. They'll go broke and they know it.

In my line of work as a Pa certified crop advisor, I talk to Pa farmers all day every day. The number one bitch I hear everyday, outside of the weather, is that the deer are killing them.

Ok, at 79 I agree your generation gets a pass on most of the problems we currently have with Government. At least there is something we agree on.

No sense that we keep going over what we don't.

And they can remedy that with leasing. Farmers have zero need to keep land open to the public to keep deer numbers in check.

"The very premise of antler restrictions, gaining age, can potentially wreak havoc in a CWD area."

You said that, not me.

So we should kill all the big deer to improve our CWD situation, when in fact in Pa. we really don't even have a situation? Cause if we only had little bucks and fawns running around CWD would just go away.

You...are crackin me up.

Suggesting that I need medication...doesn't look so good for you.

So this is my last post of on this subject as many of you will be glad to hear. I had a college professor that told me once that "Knowledge and intelligence is no match for ignorance".

Yeah actually they do, it's called liability. Cause as soon as you accept money to give access, in the eyes of the law, you also accept liability.

Edit:

My bad, I said I was done.

Armstong is home ground to me. Tidel, Templeton, Widnoon, Kittannng, Dayton, New Bethleham. Family ties in all of them. Georges, Heasley, Hornbergers, Slagle, Crowe. The Cemeteries are full of them. Most have died out, yet a few originals still remain. I've seen the best of it from a hunting/open ground standpoint. It would be hard to post it up more than currently exits. Shame is they have locked themselves out of open land Monday thru Saturday. I doubt if Sunday hunting will make much if any difference. You have ties there, you can still find ground. Problem is it is broken up in pieces and most have little room to roam. Of course those monster step hillsides along the Allegheny and Mahoning are often open. No place for the weak.

Shame today is most think if they have 100 acres to hunt it is big country. It isn't, your fenced in. One of the reasons tree stands are becoming more popular. I'm on a 1000 acre lease in Armstrong and I still fell fenced in at times and there are Deer I have to back off on because they have moved over the line. It will probably end shortly and the Game lands, ANF and SNF will replace it. There are more than a few good ones in Pa and a person has room to roam without worrying about where they can't go. For the most part they are underused and the hunting is often as good as on the posted farms once you figure where.

Correct, and if you have a problem comprehending the potential of AR's allowing an infected buck to roam for another year spreading the disease, that would be a problem only you, or your doctor, can fix.

Most farmers are smart enough to seek counsel for proper contracts which will protect their assets.

Really? What are you, a Pa. farming industry lawyer?

I don't know of a single Pa farmer that accepts money for access much less one with a "proper contract which will protect their assets" and I visit hundreds of them.

No, not a lawyer. Im in the defense industry. Before that, automotive industry in a farming community. I leased hunting rights on 2500 acres in western Adams County. I no longer am part of the lease, which still stands with the majority of members remaining.

This thread went epic.

We farm in Northern Lackawanna and Susquehanna. Most farms up here are 200 acres or less. Usually everyone stays on their side of the fence. Its pretty friendly, but their are a few dick locals complaining that everyone's shooting "their" deer, or driving property they don't belong in while the landowners at work.

We farm our own ground plus lease a few places in the area (to farm). Most places we only farm and stay out of any hunting business. But were used to working with people and its nice to have someone kill some deer/bear each year to reduce numbers and help them out of our corn/beans.

I don't really care about Sunday hunting. Its not about the noise or the people. A few distant shots doesn't bother me. But I wouldn't mind seeing an extra week for rifle season (like NY) so we can hunt an extra Saturday and a few nights after work.

Problem is Pa hunters don't care all that much about Deer hunting. It's not a big deal like in other States.

It's good to read a Pa. Deer hunting debate on a neutral forum for a change.

....and most every Pa hunter thinks they are a highly trained, experienced and recognized Wildlife biologist. With Deer being their concentrated area of expertise. We have more of them than we have Deer.


Been that way for years. I come from more than a few family members that did a little poaching on the side. Wasn't all that unique, it was fairly common back in the day. They often said there were too many Deer back then and they were eating themselves out of house and home. (Bad for the habitat as the real WB's put it.) Turns out the real WB's finally agreed with them and made it so everyone could and should shoot two or three Deer. They really were not poachers, they were WB's.

Pa. Deer herds are managed for the habitat, not hunter satisfaction. I don't have a problem with the system in place, then again I don't scream bloody murder if I don't harvest a deer every year either.

Roll with it. Happy beats grumpy every time.

is that the mission statement for the state game agency? I wonder where they get their funding through. I know out here in SD the state game/habitat budgets are directly related to license sales, i.e. no hunters no money. so they do a LOT of stuff specifically for hunters. I've seen them do stuff that had no bearing whatsoever on wildlife, but hunters wanted to see it so they did it to keep em happy. Battue is right, only he narrowed the reality, every hunter out there thinks they're a biologist. it's like me saying I'm an expert plumber because I take a crap once a day.

getting back to the original topic. the reason antler restrictions work is because it forces people to let little bucks live. the downside is after a time it CAN lead to a large number of huge forks or three's (per side). it's happened in other states, especially with mule deer. you end up with 28" wide forks doing all the breeding because they can't be shot ever. probably not likely in a WT population.

out here in the black hills almost every WT buck you see is a 4 point (one side for you easterners, that's how we count em) and we have lots of them of various sizes from basket to pretty nice. don't have a point restriction but we do have limited tags. so those that draw don't want to shoot the first little thing that walks by, even though they can. so the deer get a chance to get some age.


so add this to the discussion, would you all be satisfied with limiting the number of tags for everyone, meaning there could be a year you don't draw? if it meant better herd management, would you be in favor of it?

I alluded to this very thing back some and said "be careful what you wish for."

Do that in Pa and you will feel the ground shake in Colorado. The book of revelations would be something for children to muse over. Armageddon will be played out on Pa soil. The headless horsemen would ride the forests of Pa. There would be hordes of unlicensed hunters out on the first Monday after thanksgiving. Deer would be hunted every month of the year. Anarchy would rain down on the mountains. It wouldn't be pretty.

Addition: Forgot to mention that any politician or GC board member that voted for it would get in their car and have a copperhead riding along as an unknown passenger. No Rattlers in that they may give prior warning.

Pretty much the same way Virginia would react Battue. I have set my own quotas on myself and my land and went 3 years in which I did not kill a buck. It seems that quotas are the norm in the west but I can't see people in the east abiding by them in any way shape or form.

Oh heavens no, way too many people with the mentality, that a deer in the freezer is a god given right.

It isn't?

It pretty much was a long, long time ago. Why not now?
Of course they didn't have freezers back then. Maybe that's the difference.

I could care less if I shoot a buck here at home. I'd rather shoot a doe to get meat in the freezer anyway, then hunt for a nice mature deer . I have no problem with that. I've taken enough game over the years that I have a different outlook on "the Hunt" itself. Don't get me wrong I still hunt as hard as I ever did just more selective now. Spike forkies 3-6 pt do nothing to get my blood pumping and basket 8's. To each his own though , this is just my opinion.

As far as the draw thing for a deer tag No Thanks! I've got some friends in AZ that have not drawn an elk tag in 12 years That sux.

well the elk and deer draw is apples to oranges.

people scoff and think a draw is a horrible idea when they have limited experience in it. I prefer a limited draw personally to a point restriction, but the main factor could be because of population densities and overall herd numbers.

Sure it was, one of the reasons the eastern elk were wiped out.

Yep and we could do the same with Whitetails today given the same environment and hunting mentality. However, just to keep the record straight, this is how Elk were wiped out in Pa and we don't have the same hunting mentality of the distant past. Pa Whitetails have been doing just fine since the GC was organized and regulated seasons became the way we hunt these days. With everyone being allowed to purchase a hunting license each year.



By Joe Kosack, Wildlife Education Specialist - Eastern elk once ranged statewide, but colonization and exploitation by European settlers eventually led to the species� demise. Prior to the arrival of European immigrants, elk were found from northern New York to central Georgia. Pennsylvania�s largest elk concentrations are believed to have been in the Allegheny Mountains. Elk, or wapitis as they were called by native Americans, were doggedly pursued wherever they could be found in colonial Penn�s Woods. They were chased with dogs, jack-lighted, tracked whenever snow provided a trail, and shot on sight.


You seriously think we would be allowed to shoot Deer in Pa until they became endangered or extinct? The West can have their limited draw for tags. I'll take the East were all can at least get a license each year and try to tag a Deer. It's obvious they all don't.

Slightly off-topic from AR, but one thing that could be tried is to limit hunting pressure on the deer herd the way they do it in Oregon.

Hunters have to choose one of three seasons: archery, primitive weapons (muzzleloaders), or high-power rifle. That reduces the number of hunters in any giving season and produces a higher-quality hunt for the participants.

Pennsylvania is so died-in-the-wool conservative when it comes to deer hunting that I don't know if this scenario would ever fly.

I see no problem with it. Everyone gets a two week season. However, the archers certainly wouldn't be all that enthusiastic. Primitive ML would be either flint or cap. Modern in-lines would have to hunt during the rifle season.

Modern in-lines, I agree with you. Same with scoped crossbows.

To me, a flintlock with a patched roundball and iron sites is more challenging than a scoped crossbow.

Voting no on the limited tag idea and probably not on the pick your season. Even though I mostly only hunt modern seasons, I have enjoyed muzzleloader hunts in the past. I wouldn't want to give up one for the other. No desire to bow hunt.

99 guy, you're right about deer damage being a big problem. But no one wants to call the 'we'll post' bluff. Or maybe it should be called 'we'll pull out of the public access programs'.

There are Farm Bureau members in favor of sunday hunting. But they are outvoted by those opposed during FB policy votes so the official policy is to oppose an expansion of Sunday hunting. Will it ever change? Maybe but not any time soon IMO,

Dale

Your point is well taken Dale.

Unfortunately, there is the way it should be and there is the way it is.

Private land owners that pay their taxes should be allowed to recreate or allow others to recreate on their own property without the state interfering. Hunting is a legal form of recreation in Pa. Who is the state of Pa to say what days I can or can't hunt on private land? It's not illegal to swim on Sundays. It's not illegal to barbecue on Sundays. It's not illegal to cut your grass on Sundays. It's not illegal to fish on Sundays. It's not illegal to ride a horse on Sunday. It's not illegal to hitch a team, get on a main road and present a road hazard on Sunday. It's not illegal to butcher farm animals on Sundays. It's not illegal to drink beer on Sunday. Imagine...what if you couldn't legally drink a beer on Sunday. It's not illegal to go to a shooting range or shoot on your own property and make all the frickin' noise you want too despite your neighbors with firearms on Sunday.

WTF is the state of Pa to say I can't hunt on Sunday?

It just blows my mind that the citizens of Pa put up with this anarchy.

using this logic should a landowner get to decide the hunting seasons for their property too???

a bear is a legal game animal...within its seasons. hunting is legal recreation...within its seasons

I don't think his logic is suggesting that at all. I have never understood the reasoning behind no hunting on sundays, it is really surprising how many hunters support it actually. seems weird to me and how the heck did they ever come up with a stupid rule like that in the first place. if you're happy with it, good for you, I prefer the freedom to hunt any day of the week I choose within the season.

if someone could explain the rationale behind no hunting on sundays I'd gladly listen to try and comprehend why it is.

my reasons are just so the non-hunting public can spend a day on their gamelands without concern of being shot... hunting season on the east coast can get a bit crazy at times not the wide expanses like the west

so nicer to have a day for families to go out with their kids

Those in favor of no Sunday hunting are not basing their decision from a game management perspective. They are more concerned with how it effects people. Noise, Sunday down time interrupted by hunters asking to hunt.

They have a point when they reside in a populated local, game animals that often entail a lot of shooting and more than a few hunters. I used to agree with them, however since most farms here in Pa are now posted up solid anyway Monday thru Saturday I am not as sympathetic as in the past.

However, I see a distinct difference between public and privately owned land and see no reason that Sunday hunting should not be allowed on publicly owned land. Game Lands, NF and SF. I would be happy with that compromise.

An overview of what currently is going on in Pa.

http://republicanherald.com/sunday-hunting-support-1.1539288

As far as Pa is concerned, Game Lands were purchased exclusively with hunting license dollars and not a penny from the General Fund and the non hunting public. Why should they be able to use those lands essentially free. They have zero investment in their purchase or maintenance. During hunting season there are many other parks and off limit hunting properties that can be utilized. Pa Game Lands were purchased by hunters and for hunters and are only used heavily for a limited portion of the year.

Have a single penny investment in Pa Game Lands and they are your Game Lands. Until then they are our Game Lands.


Have a lady at work, who every years takes a bike ride on a rails to trials route that passes by a Game Lands. Every year it is on the opening day of small game and the next Monday comes in bitching about the fact hunters were in the woods shooting. No amount of reasoning can change the fact she thinks something should be done about it. It's all about her and nobody else.

There are many more like her than makes me comfortable re the future. We best learn to stick together. We best learn how to maximize our hunting opportunities within the confines of sound game management. Anything else is a compromise to those who would take it all away given the chance.

i guess when push comes to shove i don't mind the 6 day hunting week and antler restrictions

it's better than being in a lottery or point system and everyone gets a chance. there are a lot of state game lands to be hunted just have to walk a bit to get away from others at times.

do i wish there were some changes sure, i wish i could shoot a doe in 4D on opening morning of deer season since i live out of state and only stay for a few days, but when opening morning rolls around i'm just happy to take a few days off work, be in the woods with my dad and watching the deer

I can see the point for antler restrictions, but the 6 day hunt week still seems like a feeble argument. wouldn't you rather have that extra day to hunt with your dad? if I only had weekends to hunt because of work, I'd be pissed I couldn't use one of my weekend days to hunt.

there is nothing to stop people from going to people's houses on sunday to ask for permission the following day or week.

is there THAT much shooting during hunting season that people's ears need a break?

the people who want to use the public land for jogging or whatever have the entire rest of the year to do so.

when I was stationed in Virginia they had a closed sunday hunting law too, no one knew why, but that it just had always been that way. I heard the same arguements about noise, giving the deer a "break" for a day etc. seemed odd then too. just sayin. was hoping to learn something new. glad it doesn't bother those who live there. I'll quit bringing it up, was just curious.

I think the "no Sunday hunting" laws stem from the old Puritan Blue Laws. The last vestiges of which are in the northeast.

That being said, those laws have never bothered me.

If you worked 6 days a week it would. Just sayin

Another old reason for no Sunday hunting was to give the game a day of rest.

Friend of mine said OK why not make it Wednesday.

My experience is that when someone stops during the season to ask, it is for that day. Or they stop in well before the seasons start.

Yeah, some seasons and some parts of the state, there is a ton of shooting. Hunters don't realize it because they are there and then move to another location on or go home but the landowner and neighbors who live there hear it all day, all season long.

Changing subjects, with regards to game mgmt. issues with Sunday hunting, I don't see any long term issues. The PGC can adjust seasons and tag allocations as needed. Might be a few short term bumps in the road but they are usually pretty conservative with season changes.

Dale

Back East a hot Dove field on a small farm, with more than a couple shooters can lead to more than a little shooting. Unless I positively was assured by the farmer that he didn't care I wouldn't show up on a Sunday.

Wow. Don't get on line for a couple days and the AR thread is now a Sunday hunting thread. Anything else you commies want to shove at us? As one of the previous posts stated, it is all about you.

I'mjust glad as hell I don't live there, for a lot of reasons. anyone who wants to know why are welcome to come hunt with me out here to see why. just don't tell your friends.

I've essentially moved all my hunting out of state. I hunt deer here because I live here,but it aint hunting. Colorado1135 knows what I'm talking about.As far as working 6 days a week goes. I take vacation for elk season in Colo. I take days off here to hunt deer. If you work 6 days and don't get any paid vacation,it's time for a different line of work. If you are a farmer you work 7 days a week,and deserve one day to yourself.Without the latest and greatest deer hunter poking around the place.

Eastern Whitetails ain't hunting? Paleeeze then tell me what it is.

Anyway believe me, it would bother me little if you bought yourself a Stetson, saddled up and rode off into the sunset. Adios and yeppe yi o cowboy. I could have said don't let the door hit you in the azz, but that is so Eastern you may not have got it.


....and there are those who are self employed who pay for their own vacation and don't count on someone else to do it for them. For many of them there isn't any vacation paid time off. Taking a day off is a luxury and usually means they are behind when they get back. No sick days or paid holidays. North, East, South, West makes no difference. Guess they should look for a different job? Of course in many cases if it were not for people like them there would be no jobs. Hmmmm!!!!

Don't get on a high horse with me. I'm not impressed. You know,the whole AR debate was just about dead here. So.lets go to the default "Sunday hunting debate". What pisses me off more than the debates them selves,are all the whining fellow Pennsylvanians. Hunting to me is working the wind. Not seeing a posted sign every 30 [bleep] feet. Sitting on a mountain at 11,000 ft in utter silence. I'm glad I have your permission to leave. I've been waiting for it. I hunt some of the same places you have mentioned in earlier posts. I'm no kid,and no "Buzzard" either. It's turned into a " Mine Mine Mine! state and I'm not proud to be a part of it. If Pennsylvanians could just put all their self serving bullchit on hold for 5 seconds,we just might make something good here. I can tell you this. I'm good and sick of people that don't own anything more than the lot their house sits on,making up rules for the rest of us. I hunt my own real estate or that of family,along with PA game lands. For me it's not about the AR,or the Sunday hunting fervor. It's about the disrespectful "All for me and [bleep] everyone else" wedge that has been driven through our ranks. It seems my opinion of our deer hunting here of late has offended you. I won't apologize for it. Through out this thread I have agreed with some of your thoughts,and some not so much. What I didn't do was ask for your disrespectful bullchit. You know what they say about opinions.......

No offense, but this line is pure horse schit. When this whole sunday hunting thing took off and the debates began, I had it out with one of the SH douchebags and we went round and round on it. Came down to some research with the Dept of Labor and a couple phone calls to 2 folks on Game & Fisheries to dispel 99.99% of the same BS you just wrote.

The majority of folks who dont have paid vacation, sick days, or holidays are PART TIME retail employees who have numerous opportunities throughout the week to hunt. The vast majority of full time workers have up to 7 weeks vacation. Of which, the majority of vacation time went unused!


One thing I hate, is someone trying to push their views and blow smoke up my ass doin it!

OK no offense.

First off the post wasn't about Sunday hunting. It was about a poster lumping everyone into the same category.

No smoke just the reality that there are many dedicated hunters who do not have paid vacations, sick leave, holidays, etc. Didn't say they were the majority nor even imply same. Have more than a few friends who run a business. From construction types-small home repair people to home builders-,dentists, electricians, plumbers, pharmacists, lawyers, tire shops, etc and on and on. One fellow has a staff of people that get paid even when he is not there to generate money to foot the bills and a building that sits idle. Try a breakeven amount of $500 per hour every day and it goes on of he is there or not. He is the high end exception, but there are more than few little business owners that have the same situation.

Big world out there and one size doesn't fit all as the poster implied. One thing I hate is people who generalize and because of what they see or do think it applies to everyone.

No offense meant, but you can kiss mine.


Otter:

Again line dance your way out of here and I hope you enjoy the tune. Fact is you have the opportunity to hunt in Pa without crossing a posted sign the whole two weeks. If you don't take advantage of it who's fault would that be? I'm betting you will find that things are not always perfect no matter where you go or how high you may be.

See you are still here in Pa however. Have a bunch of people like you at work who bitch about the winter. Yet 20 years later they are still here bitching. Cut the cord, do it. I'm rooting for you.

Looks like you mounted the "high horse" first?

As for attitudes, fussing and whining, etc - some hunters are our own worst enemies.

Some archers think they're superior to gun hunters and that causes problems, although none of the die hard bow hunters I know, exhibit that behavior. They just hunt and are pretty successful at it.

Then we have gun hunters that whine about archers "getting all the best bucks". Far more nice bucks are killed by gun hunters, than during archery seasons.

Well, now. No one is preventing them from learning how to shoot a bow and go archery hunting, last time I looked. Then again cross bows are now legal for archery seasons and from what I can tell, arent' that difficult to become proficient with? Although I have no interest in lugging one of those contraptions around.

As for more Sunday hunting in PA, what the heck? That prohibition is one of the few remaining Sunday prohibitions still on the books in PA and more Sunday hunting seems to have panned out well in most of our neighboring states over the past several years?

I own some huntable land and none of my neighboring farmers would care if I hunted on their land on a Sunday, should it become legal some day. I can already hunt on their land now and have for many years, just as they have on my land.

See you are still here in Pa however. Have a bunch of people like you at work who bitch about the winter. Yet 20 years later they are still here bitching. Cut the cord, do it. I'm rooting for you.

Well my friend. My reasons for staying in PA are frankly none of your business. There is more to life than deer hunting. For someone with all the answers,you sure struggle with what's important. I guess none of that makes much difference. I bet if we were to bump into each other on the banks of the Little Mahoning this deer season,and didn't mention the different ends of this subject,we could shoot the chit and part with a handshake. Or,get political and scratch some gravel. That's what I'm talking about. When the act of hunting turns into the politics of hunting,it's the sport that comes up short. I miss the days when deer hunting was simple. Now there aren't 2 hunters out of any 5 that can agree on anything about it. Sad isn't it.

Well there you go generalizing again. I don't care if you stay in Pa or not. I don't care if your reasons for staying are right or wrong. I struggle for what's important in my own life. I have no investment in yours and owe you nothing. So in this case your are correct. It is none of my business and again didn't say it was. You are the one who seems unhappy to the point Deer hunting in Pa "ain't hunting."

Now history is really cool. Hated it in school, but today I almost can't get enough of it. Why? Well there is so much to be learned from it that applies to right now.

You miss the days when Deer hunting was simple. When politics didn't play such a big role. Ah you gotta love history and if you take the time to read the history of Pa Deer hunting, well it wasn't so simple and there were times hunters were at each others throats. History tells us current times are childs play compared to the past. So I'll leave you with this link. GC publication, so perhaps you may think I'm blowing smoke again. I'm not, I knew some of those old boys who fought, argued, bitched and took offense to GC policies. Friends who probably scratched in the gravel over it.

For your reading pleasure: A little history of a simpler time. When people didn't play politics and we all got along. And we came out of it stronger than when it started. I suspect if history tells us a little, we will do so again. Or at least I hope so. Time will tell and then it will be our history.

A history of anterless hunting in Pa.

http://www.portal.state.pa.us/portal/server.pt?open=514&objID=587865&mode=2

What a laugh, a history lesson from the game Commission. I well remember those "Roadside checks". You were pulled over and searched if you were not even hunting. The PC is slowly trying to change their image, but they were such !@#holes that it will be a long haul. They are not wrong all the time. They reacted to CWD years ago. They KNEW exactly how it got this far east, but to avoid alienating their allies (Trophy hunters and AR supporters) the PGC kind of went with "We are not sure how it got here".
The idea about giving the game a rest is not that far fetched. I used to check traps on a Sunday morning during rifle season and the difference is obvious. I often bumped into deer that were moving to a new area. The regular traffic noise is missing and the deer know it is Sunday. Sounds weird, but it is true. It does not take them long to figure out where the posted signs begin either. Dumb animals? Anyway, I often had good luck hunting on a mountain on the 2nd Monday when the first friday there was no sign of a deer there. Sunday gives the deer a break to move around a little.

It's those Ruskies in the GC. Commie bastids you can't trust a single one of them.

Since the GC knows how CWD got here-and obviously you know also-please tell us what they are not. Tell us what you know.

According to you, Deer get shot at hard all week-they don't, in that most today hunt Monday and Tuesday, then hang it up till Saturday-and still hang around. Ever wonder why you don't hear much shooting on Thrusday and Friday? You didn't in the old days either by the way. Anyway according to you Sunday comes, the traffic noise stops, the shooting stops, they are not bumping into hunters and things have quieted down. They can walk around safe without looking over their shoulder and that is precisely when they decide to go someplace else?

It takes more than one day for them to return to normal and you are applying old time pressure to today. Most hunters don't do the whole first week like in the past. Monday and Tuesday is pretty much it today. Since I'm often a lousy hunter I'm still often out there on Wed-Thrus-Fri. For the most part I have the wood to myself. The Sunday day of rest dogma is BS today and probably was in the past also. Last year I got a Buck Monday AM early. Still had the rest of the season off and walked around without a gun the rest of the week. By Wednesday I was looking for someone to talk to. Shots were few and far between and mostly in the evening when hunters got home from work and grabbed the last hour or so. Reality trumps the day of rest theory.

So little pressure now after the first two days in the parts of 3A where I hunt, that I've seen deer out feeding afternoons on day three over the past several years.

So yeah, many of those deer have already decided that the first Wed. is usually their first day of "rest" from pesky hunters.



Most of the devisiveness and bitterness I see, is from guys who claim they can no longer find any deer. In other words, they can no longer see the dozens (and dozens) of deer they once did on opening days.

I generally just "need" to see the one I want to shoot, same as many years ago?

Times sure have changed here in PA regarding buck hunting, IMO. I busted my arse hunting for them when I was a kid and didn't get my first buck until I was 24 yrs old, sometimes going years without a glimpse of even a spike. Now, my son just turned 14 and he's got 3 bucks in a row, with this one last year.
[img:left]http://[/img]

Put me down as liking the AR.

God bless Dr. Alt!

Hey Dube,sounds like we know some of the same people. A lot of what you posted here makes sense.

I was an archer for 15 years. 10 of those were devoted years. The only huntable day I missed completely in those 10 years was when my mother re-married. Just burned out on it I guess. Still have the custom PSE I had made back in 96,so I could hit it again if I feel the need. I too have no desire to lug a crossbow around. Not yet anyway. Todays archery equipment is quite easy to master. Though it can be pricey,lol.

The huntable holdings of mine and the family are open currently. Would I hunt Sunday? Maybe. I do in other states,don't know I guess we might see some day. I can say though there are family members that may post no Sunday hunting. For no other reason than their religious beliefs. Their feelings and mine may differ,but I will respect their wishes. As for the neighbors,I don't know. A lot of Amish. I'd be curious to see what they would do.

I've said or a long time we can be our own worst enemies. It's the nature of the beast. And not just regarding hunting. In general. I've heard all the same arguments you mentioned back and forth between archers and gun hunters. Comes with the territory I guess.

Teeder,

If that kind of cover has some size to it I'm thinking he may shoot a few more in the future.

Some of our game commission board members actually thought about setting a lower limit on the age for mentored youth hunters this year.

Why? Because of complaints from older hunters about pics of 9 year olds with dandy bucks, appearing in local papers last deer season.

What kind of bozo would whine about a young kid killing a nice buck? The kind that didn't get one themselves, would be my "educated" guess.

I say that because I have actually seen/heard old boys fussing about such pics at our local buck contest and some of that went back to when it was a scrawny 12 year old with the dandy buck, long before mentored youth could hunt in PA.

Pitiful to hear grown men fuss like that about the success some kid had.

Forgive me if I missed something, as I skipped from page 2 to page 30 of this debate.

Wish the entire state was 4 point one side restrictions, and don't see any reason we shouldn't hunt Sundays. The QUALITY of deer those restrictions have produced have helped enormously.

The guys that bitch and complain about not seeing any deer are typically the guys that have hunted the same stump/tree their entire life and don't do any early season scouting. Fortune favors the bold.

I had the opportunity to hunt an area last year that is closed to the public and is not managed at all. Saw over 100 deer that day between myself and the guy hunting the same property. We only saw 2 bucks and neither were legal. Reminded me of "the good ole days" and I can't say it was enjoyable. I'd rather hunt areas where I might see 5 deer all day with a chance of shooting a bruiser. If I need meat for the freezer I take my bow to 2B and go whack a few slickheads.

I like the 4-points-on-one-side restrictions myself and never understood why it wasn't implemented state-wide.

I have no opinion on Sunday hunting; I can live with it either way.

I jumped from page 1 to 30 on this too...glad to hear of the restrictions, and that they are working. I lived in Uniontown in 1957 and the evening activity consisted of going for a ride in the hills and looking at scads of nice bucks...glad to hear its back to that!

sort of funny to think about the old guy's logic:

if we lower the age limit then that 12 year old won't be able to shoot that nice heavy 10pointer???

as much as I want meat in the freezer, even at the age of 25 i'd rather let a Jr or a Sr shoot a nice buck, I can't eat the horns and I will have another opportunity that the Sr might not have next year and have to keep the Jr's excited about hunting

The fuss is about mentored youths shooting a nice buck.

MYH in PA are only required to have a permit to hunt; Be accompanied by a licensed adult, who has control of the hunting weapon while moving. So they are all under 12 years of age.

Can't buy a Jr license until the age of 12, after having passed the hunter ed course.

Did NY ever lower their age for big game? I know it used to be 16?

The "fuss" has always included some form of jealousy. But I dont think its fair to label all hunters that complain as being jealous. First, many do not know that when your friends introduced MY there wasnt a permit. All one needed was a pen and some notebook paper, just in case a WCO happened along. That little tid bit opened the door for poachers. 2nd, when the permits came about, it was found that some of the youth were much under 9....wasnt it you who said once of a person buying a permit for their 1 yr old? The age alone causes one to think certain thoughts along the lines of poacher. Then when the pics come out of little johnny with his buck and 30-06, or little jane with a nice gobbler and a 12 gauge, it sure makes one think just who in fact pulled the trigger. Add in the fact, that once you turn 12 you must take a safety course, but not before. No matter the age, both handle a firearm. Whether mom or dad is sitting behind them, or 10 yards away, many believe(me included) they all should be mandated to take the test. If they cant pass the test because they are too immature, they are too immature to pull the trigger, IMO.

Can mentored youth hunters carry a firearm through the woods or only from a stationary position with the parent/guardian sitting/standing beside them?

Stationary within arms reach. We all know how parents can be though...how many parents can you count fishing at this kids and disabled only area?...



Besides, we dont have a WCO behind every tree. Im sure as many get MY permits as have their wives, aunts, cousins, brothers, etc..buy a license so they can harvest another deer. I may be wrong, but the number of junior license's havent increased by the amount of MY permits sold, indicating one of two things. Either the kids being mentored gave up, or uncle jimmy has a few nephews and nieces hes killing for.

Hunted out in NM once and going down the highway ran into a roadside check station. Didn't know where or when it would be set up. They had everyone slowed down and if you obviously were hunting you were pulled over. Had to show hunting license and corresponding ID. They checked the back of pickup and trailers. Caused a delay, but I suspect they would catch some trying to get away with using another license. Of course with most having a cell phone these days, some may be able to avoid the stop.

No offense meant to our fine PA. members....but this is a vision of hell....

Aside from hell, is this thread another version of .270 versus .280?

A .270 is a vision of hell.

I thought this was hell...




Actually, neither are too bad, if ya dont know any better You get used to it.

OK, is this another version of Ford vs. Chevy?

Or 7x57 versus the uncivilized hordes of anarchy?

Or meat hunters versus trophy hunters?

Or GREEN HILLS OF AFRICA versus HORN OF THE HUNTER?

Or the pre-'64 Model 70 Winchester versus the 98 Mauser?

Or French fries versus pasta?

Or....

Let me see if I can address your concerns....

Chevy

7x57 trumps anything

Meat wearing horns is good

Horn of the Hunter

98 Mauser...sheesh....

Pasta.

What he said. Amen.

I was thinking same.

This is a thread that could go on forever and ever and ever, without resolution or consensus.

I bowed out gracefully, or maybe not so... a while ago.

This would be much easier in Pa if we coukd divide the state along I-80. And forbid entry into N.Pa from anyone south of 80 or NJ

Hell who would kill the Deer then? You would be overrun with them in no time.

Two to three years and herd numbers would've doubled at the very least, under that brainstorm?

But those who continue to demand a return to the statewide deer numbers PA had by around 2000, could care less about any negative ramifications from having that many deer, again.

Despite all the whining about "no deer", PA still remains in the top three states for deer/vehicle collisions, year after year. Currently the "explanation" for that bit of contradictory info, seems to be that we still don't have enough deer - we just have too many cars and people now.



Then there's the example of PA producing roughly 300,000+ deer kills each year, from hunting seasons. Down from the higher numbers produced initially when herd reduction began, followed by lesser numbers of buck kills under antler restrictions.

But 300,000+ deer killed, coming from approximately 800K to 900K deer hunters, is still a fairly impressive number of harvested deer.

Total of over 900,000 hunting licenses sold annually now, but not everyone hunts deer in PA. Some only hunt waterfowl, small game or predators and 800,000 deer hunters is probably a very conservative number? What many do not realize, is that the percentage of successful deer hunters in PA has probably never been higher than its been over the past 15 years.

States with higher success rates, typically have far more deer vs the number of hunters in those states. Which is why those states tend to allow more deer to be taken by individual hunters, than is the norm in PA.

I always felt that people who felt that way should also stay North of 80 when they got really sick and Podunk Regional couldn't figure out what the hell was going on.

Most don't. They jump in the truck and head South.

My complaints with "flatlanders" is that they tend to buy up the land around here, post the hell out of it but proceed to hunt everybody elses land, permission or not. I " escorted" 3 "good folks" from Jersey and Philly off my farm last year at gunpoint. My land is posted, and borders are clear. In order for these guys to get where they were they would have had to cross two other property owners land.

And we have some wonderful health facilities up here

I've lived in both worlds and the rural population violates game laws much more than the suburbanites. Of course it just could have been my relatives and who they hung around with. But, I'm pretty sure it was bigger than that and there is that.

Helicopters coming in from the North are not all that infrequent.

Gunpoint? While the trespass laws in PA are a joke, threaten someone with a firearm, different story? If that actually happened and they had called PSP, you'd probably still be in jail?

Health care is improving in the northern tier, but I've lost several friends/relatives to the quacks once so numerous at Charles Cole, over the past 30 years. Probably a bit better now, than back then, but they still have a mess of "foreigners" on staff who are hard to understand and vice versa.

One of my camp neighbor farmers died several years ago when they kept treating him for food poisoning (several trips), while what he actually had was an aneurism in his abdomen. While that's often a tough thing to diagnose correctly (it's what Conway Twitty died from), they dropped that ball and several others.

30 years ago one of their Spanish-speaking docs basically caused an elderly uncle to become partially-paralyzed for the remainder of his life, when he misdiagnosed his stroke and sent him into a brief coma by giving him the wrong meds.

Back to the subject: Your idea of banning "outsiders" from hunting north of 80, is ridiculous. But yeah, some from NJ, MD and DE can be a PITA come deer season. So can some from PA?

First off if you have a gun in your hand and are on my property Illegalky inam most certainly within my rights to deem you a possible threat to my safety.


And i wasnt just talking about banning southern pa. Imbtalking about a notthern seccession into two states. That way we can get rid of those useless politicians like Bob Casey and that [bleep] Kathleen Kane all the "enlightened democrats vlfrom harrisburg and philly vote for

Hate to say it,but get used to it. When someone starts posting theres a snowball affect. I lived up north, my uncle has 150 acre farm in Andrews Settlement. And another in NY north of Gennessee. Believe me, not only outsiders are passing posted signs. Sucks, but pointing a gun at someones gonna get ya shot. Rethink how youre handling it.

On my phone, sorry for spelling.

This is an amazing thread. Great to see all the different perspectives But disheartening at the same time. Far too much division among the ranks. Wont be long and the antis will have us by the balls.

Philly and Pittsburgh have little bearing on hunting regs. The sleeping Giant of hunters lives in the heartland of Pa. I think he is not far from waking up.

With or without AR posted land is only going to become more of a problem. The GC needs to emphasize large scale habitat inprovement on GL. That is where I would like to see us unite.

PA's hunting tradition is a dying thing. Sad to see the long time camps closing the doors. I've never hunted that way, but it's easy to see the strong tradition that is deer camp. Once upon a time i could walk out my front door and hunt as far as i wanted to walk in any direction without seeing a poster.
Nowadays it's all posted.

Everyone has a different idea of how things should be. We can't agree on a damn thing. I'd like to see the results of a mandatory questionnaire filled out on the same hot topics that come up on EVERY AR/HR thread i've ever seen! Some input from every adult resident that wants a license. Let the cards fall where they may. PGC should consider that info in their decisions. The one for sure thing here, is most hunters aren't happy.. lot's are pissed! Sure like to see that change in my lifetime.

What he said...

Nobody gave a rat's azz about posting land until dumbphuck deer hunters started putting so damned much value on big antlers. The more big bucks you put out there through antler restriction laws, management, feeding etc. the more land will be posted and the more you'll have to pay for land access. It happens EVERYWHERE significant numbers of big bucks roam so get used to it and accept that YOU are to blame if you've bought into the antler restriction/trophy buck management bullschitt.

My question to those of you complaining about all of the posted signs...

How many of you have taken the time to ask the person posting the land if you can hunt on it?

the group that I hunt with has access to lots of posted land from at least 3 different people because we asked, generally those controlling the posted ground ask us to stay out till a certain date, and then we invite them to hunt with us

also... posted or not, if it's not your land you technically need to get permission to hunt that land. But then again we all know the monday after thanksgiving ALL land is public land if it doesn't have a posted sign every 10' that is signed with an address and EVERY

Personally, I agree with Blackheart on the issue of BIG RACKS.. That reason for hunting deer or anything else has been ruining hunting since the 50's.. 12, I know how you feel about your safety, but wasn't a guy shot during bear season several years ago for something similar???

Did you happen to attend any of the Alt meetings? We all got an ear full of dipshits that dont know their azz from a hole in the ground! The majority were ready to mow down the forests and make PA a giant food plot.

What needs to happen is the science balanced more evenly with the social. There IS a middle ground. But the know it alls wont have any of it! The [bleep] cant get it through the [bleep] beans that they created a rift that will push us further and further away from our roots and closer to a have vs have not environment. We're almost there in few areas. It compounds itself yearly, especially with the reduction of deer numbers. The harder it gets, the more leasing, posted land, and food plots rise. Add in the doe vs no doe hunting and we got ourselves a Hatfield and McCoy situation.


The brainfart we call a hunting digest adds to the situation, when theyre scrounging for dollars from every aspect of the hunting industry for advertising dollars. From leases to atvs, they seem to promote the QDMA mindset which pushes for your own little hunting nirvana.

The folks calling the shots, from the PGC, DCNR, and other organizations I wont mention(hint), have zero clue how to conserve or promote tradition we once had here in PA. Even if they understood how to balance conservation and social issues, they dont want to. They have their plan, and thats how we're going to end up, come hell or high water!

All one can do is roll with the changes, enjoy yourself. In the mean time, write your legislators, recognize who has pull and who doesnt, and cross your fingers.

Yup, but that guy was an [bleep] from what I hear, and put himself in that situation. Either way, never take things into your own hands. As far as big racks, well id say thats part of our problem, but not the biggest. We have some issues we need addressed, and hopefully that comes to fruition. The agency is skating on thin ice, IMO. Title 34 states...


"Serve the interest of sportsmen by preserving and promoting our special heritage of recreational hunting and furtaking by providing adequate opportunity to hunt and trap the wildlife resources of this Commonwealth."


It is my belief, among others, that the sportsmens interest has been put on the back burner for other issues not directly related to game. Intent is everything when it comes to legal language. Theyre bending the rules to appease other interests. Im hoping one day, someone redirects us from the path we're on. Im not holding my breath though.

I'm still not exactly sure what you want and what changes you would like see made. How about a couple paragraphs. No condemnations, just how you would like it to be and where you would be willing to compromise.

First off I post my land because its mine and I dont want people trapsing all over it that I sont jnow who they are. Yes I do ask permission to hunt other properties that are posted, and if someone asks me I usually give them permission. The problem that I continualky run into are people from Philky and Jersey buying land, posting it and not giving others permission but yet they feel entitled to hunt anybody elses land they want.


As far as taking things into my own hands i wear a hun and badged for work. Im fairly sure I know what I can do and when I can do it



I dont see the clubs going by the wayside due to AR. The ines I have seen fall have been due to lack of youngsters not taking an interest in hunting, and people not having time to hunt. Most everyone I have talked to have been big fans of the AR

Pretty simple from my angle, but im not the one that needs catering to. My simple complaint deals with DCNR intrusion, but the only way to fix that is have DCNR, PGC, and Fish&Boat fall under one house....not gonna happen. Also think our WMU's need split in some areas(happened in my area this year with the advent of 2H). And the science needs eased up on, 'til they figure other excuses besides deer. Yes, bring some deer back in certain areas. Other thoughts run on trespass, BOC's, closer look at lobbyists, etc....but none will be commented on here, I save the good stuff for S&H Game&Fisheries

In a nutshell, what it would take(not would I would like to see necessarily)is ease up on doe for a year or two, quit playing games with DMAP, and start showing a little attention to hunters and things would turn around quickly, IMO.

While I do not live in Pa. I have relatives there that I visit each fall.. Having hunted there on and off for more than 50 years, I see the changes that have taken place.. It is not pretty.. To me it has gone from a sport to a selfish game of fencing off your section of the state for your own little hunting area.. I agree with most of what 12 says.. I feel there are issues driving the Pa. deer seasons unrelated to the sportsman of Pa. If the commission were interested in making good hunting timber would be cut, relations with farmers improved, any number of things.. BUT they hit on the point restrictions to make BIG RACKS because enough folks would buy into that idea to farther move their plans ahead.. They make millions off of the elk apps. alone, but then tell us they have no funds for the pheasant stocking program!!! This is just one of the little tricks the commission has pulled.. To me they have one goal in mind, do as little as possible, make as much money for themselves as possible, and to heck with sportsmen and the game in the state of Pa. I am sorry for the hunters in Pa. Deer hunting has gone from a wonderful enjoyable pastime to something
much less enjoyable.. Times change, but mostly it is not for the better...

Doesnt sound like you know what youre doing, but hey, you ahve to look out for you, and intent can be lost on a forum post. Just be careful and think clearly. I have a huge problem with trespass and how its handled here in PA. I feel for ya, I really do.

All that ellevated BP and that's it?

Man I thought you wanted heads to roll in every GC Department.

Elevated BP? Hardly. There are heads id like to roll. And they know who they are. Not everything I complain about, or certain things in this thread, can be changed by the GC. Theres much more than deer going on, but you asked and I gave you what would turn things around in this state. The majority of Pennsylvanians are concerned with deer. Appease them minutely and things would turn around. Not go away, turn around. Most of those folks have no clue who does what, how changes were made, what changes need made, etc...just that, they arent seeing deer. Honest answer.

Well if they don't know, then perhaps they need told?

Now is one of your chances, don't let it slip by.

Honest reply.

I certainly do not want to see all of the agencies rolled into one. One only has to look at the NY DEC and the clusterphuck that agency is to see how good we have it with the PGC AND FBC. the DCNR is incharge of state forests. The DEP needs to be dissolved all together

DEP thinks they are God.

Know a guy who outbid the State for a piece of land that was left in the middle of a State forest. Angered them greatly. They made his life miserable. About all he can do is walk on it.

Fish&Boat needs a financial overhaul. Whos gonna bail them out? We are the only state in the nation with an independent game agency. Id say mixing with the general fund can work. Many positions are mirrored between PGC and F&B. DCNR is running the show game management wise on state forests. The fuss about DMAP is at a head. We'll see how it goes here shortly.

The only folks I need to talk to is G&F, theyre the only ones who listen at this point. And id say theyre doing quite a good job of it.

Thanks for the insight. Nothing like hiding your light under the blanket. Laffin.

Perhaps I need to know the secret handshake and pay for the decoder ring?

Seriously? Wtf do you want me to say? We dont need AR's any longer. We didnt need to take deer numbers to the level we have. The majority of hunters, depending who you ask, dont want sunday hunting. Pennsylvanians in general have never been asked their opinion on sunday hunting. DMAP harvests in 2G rival rural private numbers. CAC's were a joke. The USP lawsuit was a joke on both parts. Roes a [bleep] idiot. Again, wtf do you want? Im not gonna spend 10 hours explaining why we need funding for coyote studies. Or how I think dube and the others are [bleep] for filing the suit on sunday hunting, or why QDMA can kiss my ass. This isnt rocket science.....to appease hunters youre gonna have to ease up on doe. How many times in the history of the commission have they dealt with this issue. And its not gonna change.

OK the answer is this. The video industry starting back in the late 80s or when ever the hunting video revolution hit for good. Is the root of all evil. I supported it. I admit it. That is when the wedge was poised to split our ranks. Everyone wanted to film their Monster Buck moment. I can't tell you how many times I had someone tell me "You know I have a stand hung in there!" Like I am supposed to start hunting Ohio because some chit head has laid claim to this wood lot or that. Hey,if you hang enough stands,and lay out enough cameras,you will eventually run into some critter with a death wish. Like I said before, MINE MINE MINE! Stay out of MY stand site. PA is never going to be able to support all it's trophy hunters,if they all need 5,000 acres each to hang all the stands,the cameras,and what ever else it take to be a professional.

Here is a good one. I had a fella inform my wife and I that I was [bleep] up his hunting! All we were doing was squirrel hunting. And this arrogant mother [bleep], sitting in a climbing stand,in MY MOTHER [bleep] TREE, informed me I had to leave. Guess who left. Seems my good nature must be mistaken for weakness. I didn't leave. Rule # 1. Don't try to tell the land owner he has to vacate the property so you can scar up his Cherry timber.

Lets try this. No more cameras. Chit,you can't take a piss anymore without the threat of ending up on youtube,lol

Tree stand permits. You get 2 with a back tag. Any stands found in the PA wilds without one are instantly the property of the landowner or the state of PA.

Sounds pretty stupid doesn't it. It isn't any more stupid than the whole QDM bull chit. QDM begins with the buck to doe ratio. Period. You can't controll the ratio in rural farming PA. I live across the road from an 800 acre private agricultural land. They don't allow doe hunting. Permission is written and enforced. I can walk by there any evening and count 30 plus deer,all doe before dark, any evening. That's a conservative number. I have seen upward of 40,in one field when the weather was right. Combine that with other 100 to 500 acre holdings,all with like views,and whole townships can become deer preserves. You can't manage this sort of real estate. So why does everyone think there can be one solution for the whole state of PA? Like I said in an earlier post,that ruffed up so many feathers. How about the city folk that don't have a stake in my little habitat here. Keep there self serving bull chit to themselves.

Ok thanks. Now we got somewhere. For a minute I was feeling like a patient and the Doc said; "You don't need to know anything, just bend over and let me put this suppository up your ass. Best close your eyes, and it may hurt, but don't worry."

Guessing you and Dube don't exchange Christmas cards?

Hey we agree on something, things are looking up. Hoooooot!!!!

Yea the stand thing is getting to be a little overbearing. Especially when I'm on open land hunting Grouse with a Dog and some guy gets bent out of shape over me screwing up his hunt. One guy didn't have the the common sense to warn me he was half way up a tree in camo until I was on top of him. If a Grouse had flushed I would have had no idea he was up there.

Only guy I ran into all day, but it had the poetential to be a disaster.

Now that's funny right there. I don't care who you are,that's funny. Threads like this one will cut down on the Christmas card load.

Hey we agree on something, things are looking up. Hoooooot!!!!

Who da thunk it? I suspect we are both decent folk. Just cut from different cheese. So,what do you say about exchanging a card or two?

Have't sent a Christmas card to anyone in years and probably not going to start. However, I will buy you a Christmas cheer and wish you nothing but the best of the season and a great New Year.

I sent him one but never got one in return

I'd frame that one.

That will work.

I liked the line about "depending on who you ask, the majority of hunters dont want sunday hunting". Bullshit. EVERY hunter I have talked to, and that is a considerable number is pro sunday hunting

If that was the case HB 1760 would have passed no problem. That didnt happen, and contrary to what those who pushed it will tell you, the legislature didnt lie down on it, their constituents wrote/called in numbers you wouldnt believe. The majority of folks who even had a clue HB 1760 was in play was hunters and the farm bureau. People spoke. They dont want it. If you can spell your name you can google til your hearts content and youll find the few polls taken on the subject. The majority are split right down the middle. Hunters. No one else. Youll find a few polls, skewed by multiple voting, that favor sunday hunting heavily. It sank. Big time!

And it failed by southern state politicians. More support for the idea to sedenthe SE AND SW parts of the state to WVA and Jersey

Hell I'd take WV in a heart beat.

I have hunted West Virginia every year for over 20 years. The tried Sunday hunting (On private land) for about two years. I believe the whole state is back to no Sunday hunting. I don't know where all these people are that want Sunday hunting hunting in PA. I suspect most are city folk and wanna be country boys. I used to hunt Maryland years back, before the deer slaughter started. I think they still have Sunday hunting (On private land). That is the BS Sunday hunting supporters don't tell you. Almost all these states that allow Sunday hunting around PA have a private land only hunting on Sundays. I went through years of not being able to hunt more than two days all of Pa's deer season. That is the way life is. Be a man instead of a spoiled brat.

Life would certainly be different if on Sunday every thing shut down.

Can't get a flat fixed. Sunday drive? Sorry honey the tank is low. The heating guy wouldn't come when the furnace broke down in winter, no afternoon sports on TV, extra groceries forget it, no ambulance driver. Hospitals? Hang in there we will be back with you on Monday. Lets close all shooting ranges while we are at it. Restaurants when you want to go out for a bite? Nope closed. Shut down the bank machines, no need for money till Monday. On and on. Thing is many people have to man up and cater to our ass on Sundays, but become brats when they would like to hunt when they have Sunday off. Gotta love logic when it comes to Sunday hunting in Pa.

Oh yea, the scope went to hell sighting in on Saturday up at camp. Forget about driving to the local sporting emporium that sells to hunters getting ready for Monday and buying a new one. Closed.

WV went with allowing counties the option for more Sunday hunting, if not mistaken? Which means it was a county by county referendum issue and may be subject to change, if voters want "in or out" of it.

I don't hunt WV, but know people that do. IIRC, some mention was made of more populous counties voting to not go with more Sunday hunting, while some of the more rural counties went for it when it came about?

http://www.wvdnr.gov/hunting/sundayhunt.shtm

I have no dog in this fight, but I can't see any good reason to prevent hunting on Sunday. Heck, I can't think of anything I'd rather do on a Sunday. Most of my deer have been killed on Sunday. I seriously just can't understand why any hunter would want that rule. If you don't want to hunt on Sunday you don't have to, but keeping others from doing so? Weird rule in my book.

I far as I know, there is now NO Sunday hunting in WV. The counties that had it have tossed it out. Pointer, you are right. It is not any out of staters business. You are just used to the way you hunted when growing up. There are a lot of stupid hunting laws in other states that cater to the elite. Unfortunately, you just have people that think they are better than others everywhere you go. When I hunt out of state, I go by the laws and leave it at that. If I don't like the laws, I go somewhere else. Here are some stupid ideas that have been promoted: Hunting turkeys with dogs, tracking deer with dogs, baiting deer, allowing hunting with both a muzzle loaded and bow(This is complicated to explain, but allows poaching)in overlapping seasons, spear season for deer, semi-auto rifles for deer, AR's, Sunday hunting, and I am willing to bet others could add a lot more. This is Pennsylvania and that is how we do it. Deer season has always started on a Monday in PA. If you can't get off the first day that is not a problem. The woods are running with huge bucks because of AR's and I am sure you can get one on a Saturday. Oh, by the way. My sister lives outside of "The burg". If hunters out there needed AR's to see big deer, I consider that pitiful. What it comes down to is: There were always big deer in PA, they were just not tame enough for the average hunter to kill. What next? Limited night hunting for DMAP areas?

Plummer,

Laws in other States that you think happen to be stupid, always cater to elite? Really???? You wouldn't be guilty of reverse elitism would you? Naw, it's those other stupid people and surely not you.

When you hunt in another State you abide by their law and leave it at that. Well, what else do you think would be proper?

Out of all stupid ideas you mentioned only one has come to reality. ARs. Well you now can have a Dog with you during Fall Turkey, but not Spring, so perhaps 1.5. Out of all your worries and objections, essentially only one so far to find fault with and yet you do.


Now yes, "outside the Burg" we have had some big Deer running around for more than a few years. Guess why? I'll save you from guessing again. It is difficult to get permission to hunt in the suburbs. Some places you just can't and most of them meet their end on the front of a car. Deer get to live longer. Now what does that remind you of? Why it would be part of the management philosophy known as AR. You know let them get a couple years on them. Funny how that worked out around the Burg even before ARs. And yes now we are even getting bigger ones. Pitiful I tell you.

By the way we already have night hunting on some airport property. I guess that means DMAP areas are next.

Some people just can't imagine change. Some are stuck in the way we do things in Pa and can't imagine anything else. Even change to experiment and see if something possibly could work. I would be for an experiment on Sunday hunting. Give it a 3 or 4 year go and see how it works. Just in the interest of discovering if it would be acceptable in Pa. Would you?

I personally wasn't all that happy when they made a week long Bear season that ran concurrent with Grouse season. Especially since I currently hunt with a Black Dog and Grouse and Black Bears tend to often hang around the same type of cover. But, it's not just about me and I realize that. So I have to figure out a way to make it work for me. If not, I lose a week of Grouse season. I'll adapt and go on having fun and hope the Bear hunters are doing the same. But if I happen to run into a bunch doing a Bear push, it would be wise for me to put the Toby on a leash and walk him out of that area. Inconvenient, but in this case I just get in the truck and stay out of their way without being all that angry. The wise thing to do is change my plans.

I know it's those other stupid people. It's always their fault. Why can't they let it be like it aways was. You know those Edisons, Fords, Westinghouse, Einsteins and the like. All they ever accomplished was change. Damn them.

You guys are missing out on some good weasel hunting on sundays.

Or was it coyote hunting? Yeah that's it.... crow hunting.

No kidding, what's the limit? How big do they have to be to get in the book? Do people keep the all white ones or are they taboo? Black Footed and Least? Cute little buggers. Bait is legal I'm guessing. Hmmmm, baiting? I'm against that. No thanks.

How the heck are you gonna count points on a weasel ????????

Them weasels, i say them weasels are crafty critters.

And chicken hawks too.

It ain't easy..

We usually go by body size. Look for a grey muzzle, a deep chest,and a swayed back and a sagging belly. You can't judge them by their legs looking to short though.

I'm for it as long as we don't hunt the Does. (WTH the hell is female Weasel called? For now I declare them Does.) Anyway, we need a trap that the female can pass thru unharmed, but a big males big balls will trip the trigger. If the balls are big enough no need to worry about size. I'm sure my property has some big ones. Gotta go and post it up solid. See ya!!!!

Oh yea, it's dark had to go back and get the flashlight. Sure as hell beats a lighted fire stick. Who was the stup that invented flashlights and now we have those LED thingamajigs you stick on your cap. Another change. I'm plum wore out from it. The hell with it anyone can hunt Weasles on my place.

Like all idiots, when there is no way to refute valid points, go to comedy. Stuck in the past? Time for a new picture maybe? I have not seen one improvement in the deer herd on public land in the last 15 years. Nothing but a downhill slide. You pretty much summed it up when you said the housing developments hold the big deer. The hunting on a lot of state land has really gone to hell. That should tell you right there the current deer program is not working. 5-C pretty much has unlimited tags-with almost nowhere to go. What good does it do to keep issuing tags that beat the state land into the dirt in a failed attempt to cut the herd in populated areas? This is all part of PA AR management. There used to be a section on your report card asking if the deer was taken on public land or private land. Right after that butthole Alt took over that stopped. He KNEW the program was screwing up the state game lands. I got into an argument at a meeting with a GC representative and he denied there ever was such a thing on the card. The lies and cover ups are continuous with the Game Commission. I think the GC has wasted enough money "Experimenting".

After a couple years of AR there shouldnt be a problem

I was merely trying to ease tensions a bit in this thread. Playing nice. It's over now, ya'll rip at each others throats out again. Besides that, it's my [bleep] ball.. i'll take it and go home!

That's a monster... hick ! Thinking that's the northern subspecies. Ya know, above rt 80.

yup!...gotta be 2G...that barren wasteland and all...hard to believe he got that big....must be 40 yrs old

That's gotta be atleast a 10" spread. He dwarfs my big 8.

Had me laughing along, with the initial common sense Coyote/Crow examples.

Anyway from the size that looks like a suburban Weasel. Probably living around Turtle Creek.

All white one, bad juju Hick. Probably explains why you are having such a hard time with the GC. Em-Em-Em.

Plummer,

Out of curiosity how long ago was it that one could check off private or public land? I'll take your word that it was an option at one time, but I can't remember seeing it myself and it seems like a valid management question.

Would like to see it again, along with the option to check if you owned the land or a guest.

naw, he was my good luck charm. been couple years since I seen him. most likely harvested during our destructive WHR program, but I caught him on cam one last time before stabilization




damn GC!

I'm not so sure that isn't a robo weasel. He hasn't moved at all. Hold my beer... watchis!

thats a good one!

Up in President a few years back a Bud and I were hunting second season Grouse when ML was also in. Driving down the road to hunt and he said look at the Deer in the field. We stopped and the Deer jerked his head to the left and stopped. Then did it again. I said that is a Robo Deer and he said no way. Another jerky move. We went back and forth and I said I'll bet you dinner. He opened the door to chase it away and that's when the GWs came out of the bushes and told us to move on. Snow on the ground and they had white sheets over their clothing. Cold day it was. Tough work sitting in the bushes that day.

We went down a way and pulled over to hunt. Getting the dogs and gear out we heard kbooom!!!! Had to go back and look. They had him.

If I remember correctly, it was still in use in the late eighties. It kind of disappeared about the time that Buck and Doe went together. Another good one: For years the Game Commission stated there were 38 deer per wooded square mile. I would not doubt there were more. It was time to do something, but just blundering ahead with an unproven program is not it. After two years of record kills there still was supposed to be 38 deer per square wooded mile. Hunters went nuts. The PGC paid out some crazy fee to look for deer by air with some type of infrared cameras. That was a total failure that just "Went away". I wish I could remember the butthead's name at that meeting. He denied the GC ever saying anything about 38 deer per square wooded mile. Get the GAME NEWS ? Ever see those little white state maps that show the deer kill by county? There was one in the GAME NEWS back in the 90's showing deer killed for crop damage that year in the whole state. 500 deer, plus or minus a handful. In the 90's (When there was still deer) that was the crop damage kill in a 5-7 mile radius of my house. Where do they come up with this crap? We need more money! In the 80's, when they allegedly had their last raise, what pops up in the GAME NEWS ? We need a new logo for the PGC!-on everything. You wonder why people won't listen to the BS they pump out.

Some collect all issues of the Game News. Any Pa hunters out there that can verify the GC stated that the average Deer per square wooded mile in Pa at anytime in the last 20 years was 38. If it was something needed to be done. Also find it hard to believe they would state only 500 Deer in a specific year in the 90s were killed for crop damage. If so I would think it was a printing error. Those things do happen on a frequent basis. Then again the GC is not allowed to make mistakes like the rest of us. However, would like to see it in print. Doubt if that will happen, but there is an outside chance.

Once again you seem to be locked in the past with references to the 80s and 90s. This is 2013. However if you want to go back, those boys of yesterday publicly bought and burnt their Doe tags back in the day. They stood up for what they believed. They obviously were wrong way back then and eventually it was proven they were. But they made a real stand. What do we do? Seems like we buy them and try to kill Deer that are not there and if we do find one we kill it. That and bitch; sometimes at a meeting, but essentially nothing more than bitching. Those in power bet on it, let us bitch and then do what they want. How about a coordinated march of a couple hundred thousand dissatisfied Deer hunters on the GC home office in Harrisburg. Get the news media involved. Light your candle. Naw that would take effort and time, easier to just bitch. Work on it Plummer. Talk to the various Deer factions that have birthed. Give them an idea and see if they will run with it. Doubt it will happen. They will just bitch it would take to much effort. Then again they may, but way more than a couple thousand hunters will have to get their cotc and put worth the effort. How many do you think will? Easier to ......

In your opinion the GC does nothing to benefit wildlife and Pa hunters; "The lies and coverups are continuous with the Game Commision." You would not be willing to compromise and try a test period of Sunday hunting in Pa.; it is always the idiots and butholes against you. Good luck, you're going to need more than a little.

Have fun boys and it's been a hoooooot!!!!

And if I may add one more thing-promise-hunt were they are and not where they ain't. It tends to be sooooo much more fun.

The PA hunting license went from $12.50 to the current $20, in the 1999 license year. That requires action by our state legislature and they have refused to grant a license increase since then.

Some people are bitter, confused and misinformed, but it doesn't stop them from posting BS on the webs, as if they actually knew WTF they were talking about?

battue,
The march sounds like a good idea, but once we got there... But everyones sign would say something different.

dube,
I'll admit i'm bitter, confused and misinforned. 50% of my bitterness comes from threads like these.

A few of my thoughts,
I have a few more radical ideas then has been listed here so far.lol. Maybe i'm just like everyone else that thinks his views would take us down a path to a happier pa hunter overall. I'm just a regular joe who lives in a rural area. I don't profess to know the inner workings of the pgc or think i should need to. From a business standpoint, i don't feel i'm getting what i pay for now.

The pgc sells more than 850,000 + does tags each yr for a herd of deer that they say is around 600,000. Not 600,000 does, but 600,000 total. Now add in the 800,000+ buck tags, the 1,000's of dmap tags, and i think the MY don't even have to have a tag. So... were talking tags for 1.7+ millon deer. Ok, the flipside arguement to that is most say we only have a 25 percent success rate. I call bs to that. Think about the hunters you/i know... how many out of ten got skunked? How many shot 2? How many shot 3+? It doesn't add up. Personally I see no reason for more than one doe tag per hunter right now.

I've argued that till i was blue in the face on pa forums... it pissed me of so much i said OK, then lets kill them all. I bought more tags this yr than i ever have! How retard does that sound after what i just said? Full blown retarded! I've just came to the conclusion that my opinion means nothing! I've came to the conclusion i'll just do wtf i wanna do regardless. I hate arguing over this shcit.K, there's my opinion on HR. Just one topic, but the biggest in my mind.

Shouldnt they be bitter? Serious question. You know, all too well, there are organizations who supposedly ensure the rights and interest of sportsmen. Then officials come on the interwebs and tell said sportsmen to suck it up. And the GC has catered to anyone but the sportsmen since 2001. You can create all the opportunity(time afield) you want, but if there isnt enough game to keep hunters happy, you have present day conditions. Again, this isnt rocket science. Over a decade, a decade! of very frustrated hunters. Suck it up right?

We're one of those families with almost all the issues. I'll be at my parents house over the weekend and will try to look.

I do remember when they did the Infrared stuff. One area near Parker Dam had virtually no deer per sq mile, another area about 10 miles away but nasty steep terrain with heavy cover had nearly 100. That was online but I don't remember when.

My Dad was on the Citizens Advisory Committee for WMU 2C as one of the ag representatives. He said at their first meeting, each person was asked to give a % change in the deer herd they would like to see. Responses ranged from -25% to +400%. How the hell do you keep everybody happy with numbers like that?

If nobody is happy, isn't that the best compromise?

Dale

Actual 2013/14 doe allocation is probably around 839,000, but WTH?

At least four WMUs with the highest allocations are still only half sold, so adjust the actual figures by minus probably 50,000 that won't be sold. I've added them as an edit:

2A: 49K allocated/26K sold thus far
2B: 62K allocated/17K sold thus far
5C: 103K allocated/55K sold thus far
5D: 18K allocated/8K sold thus far



And IIRC, it still takes around 4 to 5 doe tags sold, to achieve the desired reduction in deer numbers via doe tags allocated?

And exactly who ever estimated the current preseason total PA deer population at a mere 600,000?

First I've heard that one. Does anyone that pays attention really think preseason PA deer numbers are anything less than at least a million deer?

A 25% success rate vs slightly over 300,000 harvested deer, means at least 3/4 of a million preseason deer available. And yes, I think their annual estimated harvest figures are conservative.

Mentored Youth now get a permit at a nominal fee ($2.70), mostly for record keeping and they bring in matching P-R federal funding, to boot. And yes, they can take a buck with it.

MY can now also use a mentor's doe tag (one per youth). But it's a tag the adult mentor could've used themselves instead of giving it to the kid, so no gain/loss there.

Most of the hunters I know personally that are still bitter, are upset that they no longer see the numbers of deer they saw by the turn of the century (1999/2000), when our deer numbers were far beyond what they should've been.

Doesn't matter that they may have seen far fewer deer in the preceeding 20 or 30 years, prior to herd numbers exploding and were fairly content then?

Goota chime in-no longer to hash out differences of opinion-but your last comments on numbers 30-40 years previous to 2000.

In the middle 50s and into the 60s in the Northern tier it was not uncommon to count over 100 Deer in a day and sometimes in a morning. Herds of 50+ passing in a long line were not rare. Spotlighting fields would often have so many that you didn't even try to count them. I was primarily in Warren, Forest and Elk at the time.

The first days of Doe after Buck closed was insane with the shooting that went on with Deer often moving all around you.

Way too many, but that is the way it was in those counties many years before 2000.

600,000 to 650,000 is the last number i heard being thrown around alot. No way we have a million deer! I'd also like to hear who thinks we have a million deer.
About the only thing i agreed with you on was sunday hunting. I think you just changed my opinion on that. To many with the kill em all attitude to give em more time to do it.The way i see it were killing close to 40% of the herd every year nowadays. Is that normal? I mean i don't know. Whats the stats for say... WV, OH, KY?

I would question a million myself, but couldn't prove it one way or the other.

There he goes, pissing off those hes supposed to represent?

You nor I, nor anyone else. Would ya settle for at least 750,000 deer?

If PA is roughly 46,000 square miles and averaged a mere 15 deer per square mile, that's almost 700,000 deer right there. I know some folks that could spend a week hunting in an area with 15 DPSM and be lucky to ever see three or four? So they'll swear there are three or four deer per square mile there.

They're not all in the forested areas of the northern tier now, like they once were.

There may be far more deer these days, in suburban areas? There are at least 40-50 per square mile in the suburbs I live in. They still "count", even if ya can't hunt many of them due to safety zones, etc.

Some of the areas up north where I've hunted for many years, are now up to at least 20-30 per square mile. The only people that will believe that, are those who spend enough time looking and seeing them throughout the entire year's cycle of annual harvest, winter survival and springtime recruitment.

Some tend to base their estimates on what they see over a few days or a week during a hunting season. I tend to base my estimates on deer seen out feeding in spring, summer and fall.

Funny how scarce they can get once hunting seasons begin, ain't it? Especially if few are trying to move them out.

You both sound like what you described. Maybe you should read the newspapers instead of "Racks R' Us". I was trapping in the late eighties and all of a sudden there was a furtakers license. I really don't bother bear hunting, but I remember we never had a bear license until recently. Elk lottery? Bobcat tag? Extra turkey tags? Bonus doe tags? I don't even know where the DMAP tag money goes. All extra money coming in. You want to see it in print? The Commission board fiasco WAS in print, people WERE guilty, therefore resigning. I bring that up and it never happened. For at least 6 years the GC claimed the license sales were increasing. I bet they counted the extra doe tags to cover it up. In the August issue of GAME NEWS the GC finally admits license sales are down and dropping. IN PRINT. Same old "People are just too busy to hunt" BS. I can easily name 10 people I worked with that quit because of the poor deer hunting and at least half of them had kids. Check out the September GAME NEWS. The only photos of heavy racked deer are from the 20's and 40's. There is some guy and his kids with 3 deer that you elitists would consider "Scrap", but they look perfectly happy to me.

So dube, straight up.... do you now, or have you in the past worked for the pgc? Just wanna see ya say it.

Nope, never worked for any state agency. Do have a bad habit of trying to follow what's been going on concerning hunting issues, though. Especially over about the past 20 years.

Last year I was at the first public meeting on CWD that PGC and PA. Agriculture Dept. held at a high school in the general area where CWD was discovered in a deer farmer's pen.

Struck me while listening to the comments of many who attended, how out of touch many hunters are with even the most simple concepts and facts about deer and PGC.

For example, easily half those there had no idea that PGC hadn't had control of pen raised deer for years and wondered why Agriculture was even there? One after another blamed PGC for "letting" CWD come to PA and lots of other things.

I've "learned" lots of such things by standing around and listening to folks yak at public gatherings like that one.

PA politicians took deer/elk away from PGC years ago and handed that off to Agriculture. Now they're heading that way with feral hogs, too. Slow learners.

So yeah, in my experiences over the years, far too many PA hunters are among the least informed/most prone to spreading rumors and BS, of any group I can think of? And as a hunter for well over 50 years, I find it to be an embarrassment that so few give a rat's ass about learning WTH is actually going on, prefering to spread rumors and BS.

I already told you who he is. Denny has a habit of not being truthful in that respect. And hes not about to change now.

I just get the feeling it's us (me) against them (the pgc). Sure as hell shouldn't feel that way, but i'm certainly not the alone in that. WTF does ag have to do with it? Why are they even involved/ in charge? Of course they wannaa kill em all. Tell me you've hunted for 50 yrs and never heard a farmer say kill em all! Hell they used to shoot them in the guts to get them outta their fields. They run off and die outta the feild. The newer generations don't say that because everything is posted, and the newer generation farmers hunt.
Nothing is going to change for the better when everyones opinion of better is different. All the bickering in this thread and every other one on these subjects are meaningless here, cept it shows how much division there is. I let myself get sucked in to them because i feel strongly about my views too. I'm done now. I'll just do my own thing,and live with everyone else doing theirs.

Ag is in charge of captive deer/elk because the PA deer/elk farmers complained to the legislature about PGC being "too hard" on them in enforcing the regs. So the politicians took deer/elk away from PGC and handed it off to Ag.

Little was done by Ag in the way of making them comply with regulations, so deer have been moved all over the place, with little record keeping. And when CWD showed up in PA, Ag did little to try and control that deer movement between deer/elk farmers.

Now pay to hunt operations are complaining about PGC's efforts to curtail escaped boars from destroying the habitats and the legislature took that away from PGC, as well. There are already several locations in PA that have breeding populations of feral hogs which had escaped from pay to hunt locations and are ripping the hell out of things. They also kill ground nesting game birds and small game. Hogs will eat just about anything they can find.

As a result, Ag has jurisdiction over such feral hogs as are inside pay to hunt operations. PGC can only "do something" once the hogs escape into the wild.

Make sense now?

Grovey,

For the record I've obviously bought into AR. I haven't bought into a Statewide war on Does.

Where I'm at I can take a Doe and still feel good about it. Have hunted the ANF for Deer a little in the last 5 years and a good bit for Grouse. We have bumped into some Hog Bucks up there, but very few Does.

The son of a Bud is a dedicated Deer hunter and hunts the ANF almost exclusively. Will scout months ahead before archery and then will take the first two weeks off and stay up there. Tags a better than good Buck every year. Last year was the first he didn't in 19years if I remember correctly and not because he couldn't find one. He found them, but missed at least one and maybe two. Not sure. More than a few have been 130 and 140s for those who keep score. In his 40s, strong as a country Mule, can cover ground, smart and observant. With a bow he usually kills one on the edge of the many clearcuts up that way.

When we go up there he knows where at least 10 to 15 good Bucks are calling home. 500,000 acres and you couldn't get him lost up there. During archery things change when the rut kicks in and they have to roam to hook up with a Doe but he reads sign better than anyone I have ever known.

He is perfectly happy with the way things currently are. Wants the other hunters to be frustrated and go home. Doesn't want to be bumping into them or have them come through and push a Buck out that he knows is hanging around.

He is happy and kills nice Deer every year, while others think things have gone to hell. He is the exception not the majority. The GC has to please the majority and for the most part they have failed. IMO a few more Does would change many of their opinions.

grovey, many guys think just like you. Many guys are happy too. But they arent the norm. Most people have some issue or another. Problem is, no one has listened for a good while. Thankfully, we do have some understanding folks in the Game & Fisheries, House and Senate. Voice your opinions, right or wrong. Its the only way you stand a chance to get heard. Forget PFSC, QDMA, USP, etc....the legislature has control. Enjoy what the good Lord has given us. Enjoy your time with family and friends. But also let it be known to those who can help just where you stand. Thats what theyre there for.

Well... if there's some sort of organized effort to change some of the things i view as wrong, i'll do my part. My biggest beef is the amount of deer, and their bs excuses as to why it needs to be that way. They still want 100% of the tag money they used to get, but offer the average hunter on public property less oppotunity. Our ranks are dwindling. I freakin hate it when i hear someone beat their chest and proclaim it's the hunters fault they hunted for 4 days last season and saw 2 deer.

No way that's case for every disgruntled hunter in pa. I really don't think many are asking for a lollipop, but more to be taken seriously, to god forbid.... be heard.

Battues example isn't the norm, but it pretty much summed up how i'll be this yr. My scouting will be done in squirrel season though. The piece of state i'll be hunting holds some really nice bucks if ya put your time in. Maybe i'll get one,maybe not. These issues will not be on my mind while i try though.